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  1. In this thread: some people who are gonna lose their shit when non white actors get cast despite most characters not having an explicitly established skin colour and Randland being a far future setting where skin colour is entirely irrelevant.
  2. I've only skimmed this thread but I've seen it mentioned a few times here and in the what to keep what to cut thread that there are people who think WoT is PG, especially when making disparaging comments / comparisons with Game of Thrones / A Song of Ice and Fire and I kinda have to wonder if we're reading the same books. I would say that aSoIaF definitely revels in 'adult' content more and plays more for titillation and gore in terms of lurid descriptions and general writing style but in terms of what's actually there, like purely what events are there in the books to show on tv I'd argue that Wheel of Time is as 'adult' in its content if not more so than aSoIaF. First violence - obviously there are battles, swordfights and the like and on immense scales and thousands (or tens or hundreds of thousands) of people hacking, stabbing, bludgeoning, and shooting eachother to death is bad but it's kinda considered background standard fare (what does that say about us as a society and as readers, lol) and a lot of shadowspawn get blown up but they are just monsters so there's a general feeling that that doesn't really count but once we get the watershed of Dumai's Wells where channelling is introduced into warfare not just against creatures of the shadow but against men Jordan absolutely hammers home the extreme horrors of mechanised, mass warfare - people being blown limb from limb, turned into a red mist, people dying by the hundreds in explosions and fireballs, people screaming as they die, Jordan really makes sure the sickening horror of it all is as clear as possible... and I say people because Wheel of Time features female warriors in the Maidens of The Spear (and later in Cha Faile) which is something people are often squeamish about - much easier / more normal to watch the menfolk die in war. Later we also get multiple vivid descriptions of what gunpowder based weaponry does to human beings. There are also a bunch of executions of nobles or others who take up arms or who otherwise oppose either Rand or the Seanchan, mentions of dead and/or raped civilians as a result of banditry or The Prophet's people, tons of people hanging from trees and the like, that one guy's ear collection, the entire ambiance of the Whitecloak's "Citadel of Light". There's the many descriptions of what the trollocs do to their prisoners, and the scene in T'A'R where the foolish Aes Sedai get stuck in a nightmare of the same which probably belongs in the torture section but most of the other trolloc stuff is just background info or happens offscreen until the last battle where we see it more closely so I wanted it in a seperate little section. There's as every gnarly thing relating to the Ruby Dagger, which includes but isn't limited to Fain crucifying a Myrddraal with metal spikes, and anyone who gets cut by it dying in a multitude of gory and gruesome ways. Then we come to the many, many torture scenes, both psychic/mental in the case of say Logain being tortured for days to break his will so he can be 13/13'd (the very concept of which is extremely horrfying, turning someone who wants and chooses to be and fight for good to evil), every instance of compulsion and of course the absolute nightmare fuel that is the a'dam (which goes far beyond anything in aSoIaF in terms of how disturbing it is) and its use as a tool of mind-breaking enslavement and conditioning, as well as so much physical torture. To name a few instances: when Rand is captured (also mental from being locked in the dark for days, forced to watch his girlfriend get beaten to punish him), the various times a bunch of different characters are 'put to the question', Perrin torturing the Aiel for information, any time anyone on the Shadow side thinks someone over whom they have some position of authority has messed up or they just feel like throwing in some humiliation and/or torture. There's also a bunch of casual mentions of stuff the Black Ajah has been involved in in the past, and various mentions of stuff Semirhage did way back, as well as her torturing Cabriana and her warder, and later using the Sad Bracelets on Rand (both mental and physical). At some point the real Danelle would have been tortured to death too which I suspect will get shown early on the show to introduce Mesaana as an ongoing character and 'face' of the black ajah politics / political machinations in the tower, probably completely replacing Alviarin and giving her much more creit as an ongoing threat and the "shadow's amyrlin". Every instance of someone being severed / gentled / stilled probably counts as both mental and physical torture, it's essentially an act of spiritual mutilation. Birgitte's entire forced life is sort of an extended torture by Moghedien which causes her no end of anguish throughout the books over Gaidal and her place is a hero. Trigger warning because now we have sexual violence - Morgase is raped by both Rahvin and Valda, Mat faces prolonged sexual abuse at the hands of Tylin, I'm pretty sure there's mention of trollocs and Myrddraal enjoying raping humans, it's implied that Shadar Haran rapes both Moghedien and Mesaana during their torture torture scenes. Suroth is give to the Deathwatch Guard (yeah, all of them) to use for whatever they want and the scene closes as her clothes are cut off so it's pretty clear where that's going, the Shaido are mentioned to be raping their wetlander prisoners, Graendal has an entire palace full of mindcontroled sex slaves. Sex - if we ignore that Perrin and Faile got a whole book offscreen to have fun and that Rand and Min technically spend a ton of time together and seem to be a normal sexually active couple again off screen there are likely more rapes shown or implied in the series than consensual sex scenes - Rand gets a fade to black once with each of his girlfriends, I think Perrin gets one with Faile, and Mat gets one with Tuon and that's all folks. A bunch of side characters are obviously happily together but it's never really shown/mentioned. Nudity - so much nudity, and it's mostly female nudity (so I guess that's good for tv, everyone loves some tits but you aren't allowed to show a cock) and frankly most of it I classify along with half of the torture scenes and almost all of the corporal punishment as Jordan throwing in some of his kinks, if it was an anime rather than a book I'd have turned off and be decrying it as pointless time-wasting fanservice. This is just the non-sexual, non-violent stuff: Every Aes Sedai ceremony? Naked. Go to Rhuidean? Naked. Get captured by the Aiel? Naked. Sweat tents and bathhouses, sure but damn it seems the Aiel (and wise ones in particular) can't actually hold meetings or discuss anything of any merit without stripping down and heading in to the sauna. Corporal punishment, oh my! Mostly centred around the White Tower and the Aiel, though the Seanchan are in to it too. We start off with some light spanking and move on up to almost the full BDSM experience. Elayne gets a few. Egwene gets beaten almost as much (though doesn't have nearly as much fun) as my favourite non-combat heroine and the divinely anointed masochist Phèdre of the Kushiel series (for which Jordan provided a glowing cover quote, at least it's on my copy of Kushiel's Dart, just as a by the by). Faile gets introduced to Aiel shibari, beaten, hogtied, beaten a bit more and this seems to be on the light end of Sevanna does to her prisoners from stuff that's mentioned to happen to other "gai'shain" in the Shaido camp. Tuon gets beaten (at her request!) by Semirhage offscreen and was crying for days as a result (though Semi was "almost tender about it" because she's actually a misunderstood loving sadist, and not an evil psychopath?). Half the Aes Sedai also get handed 'penances' which are mostly various flavours of beating - Elaida in particular hands them out like candy under Alviarin's influence. Rand gets a few from the Maidens. And there's plenty of general background beatings that go on with the Aiel in general.
  3. First post back on these forums in forever, but that's tv show hype for ya. One character I've not seen mentioned yet, obviously not a presence in the first season unless they want to get all the forsaken introduced early (which I'd be down with, way too many of them appear as one-off "end of book boss" then nearly immediately die, which doesn't exactly make the Shadow look good/threatening) but anyway I'm talking about Asmodean, of course. And who else to play him but Tom Ellis:
  4. Really? It's certainly a mash-up of all the fragments we've been given, but that's not the same as it being the whole thing in the right order.
  5. The early books in the series were re-released in several parts for some reason, I believe possibly to make them more attractive to young readers. IIRC EotW was re-released as "From the Two Rivers" and "To the Great Blight".
  6. Do we think Verin took part in the torture and murder of Tamra Ospenya?
  7. I thought Saidared was pretty ok and fits with the sort of guy Mat is - he's the one who knows absolutely nothing about the One Power and really doesn't want to know. Pretty much every other POV we have is knee-deep in channeling even if they can't do it themselves. The word that stuck out most for me was "akimbo" used to describe how suian is standing at one point.
  8. Edit : if I get time tonight I'll write up a serious review rather than just a response and explanation of the points I made last night. To begin with I'd like to, perhaps unfairly picking on one person, quote a poster over at Westeros who asserted that he was a true fan and to him "there are no secondary characters, no plotlines of lesser importance, no detail to small or drab or boring" and I think this is a very true statement and also the most major problem I have with quite a few things. I'd like to point out, with no offence intended to ya'll that you, the membership of this site, make up the tiny most fanatically devoted percentage of the Wheel of Time's readership; there are millions of people out there buying and reading these books but only ya'll care enough to come on to the internet and talk about them. To some extent I have to include myself in this number too, of course. My point, however, is that when I'm about to say "the pacing in TGS is horribly uneven and nothing happens for half the book" I'm going to be met with outraged screams and a torrent of people will quote every minutia that happened at me. When I say that Mat and Perrin's chapters were mostly unnecessary, and that that so were most of Gawyn's, I'm going to be told that of course they were important. And so on. For a fan every single extra detail we get to see of the world is important and interesting, but if I'm writing a review I have to be looking at just another novel and asking myself to think more critically than that. To that end my primary criticism of your review is your assertion that the pacing is well handled and even, which I think is one of TGS biggest problems. I know it's become anathema around here to speak critically in the direction of Tor/Brandon/the Jordan estate but I honestly think that given the amount of bloat, and the ridiculously high, even for a hardback, RRP, the profit mongering should be becoming obvious. I think TGS could have been a very very good book, up there with the best in the series, but it suffered from a massive lack of editorial discipline. All Perrin chapters could have been cut and handled through a couple of paragraphs of Rand seeing Perrin through visions (which it seems is a device that someone writing the book wanted to use - the Perrin chapters do stop suddenly and we then get our updates via Rand's visions, for ex. Perrin with Galad) or perhaps wrapped up into a single chapter rather than three or four. Mat only needed the one chapter to get his meetings with Aludra and Verrin done, or that could have been skipped entirely and left to the next book. Likewise the first load of "Gawyn wanders around doing nothing" chapters could have been entirely removed. At least one Rand chapter could be skipped and I think another few could have been edited down and amalgamated. The only plot line in which I feel there isn't a whole hell of a lot of bloat is the Egwene/Suian one, where every chapter provides a distinct purpose, character development and a sense of plot-progression. The worst thing for me is that at the same time as the bloat there are some wonderfully well done chapters that because I've had to slog through 100 pages of screw all happening feel rushed. I'm unaware if whether or not this is considered a spoiler topic, but particularly the resolution of Rand's plotlines with the forsaken feel terribly rushed when contrasted with the glacial lack of progression in other chapters. This is what I mean when I criticise the book for having uneven pacing. The last... mm quarter? 200 pages maybe.. whatever. But anyone who's read the book knows what I mean. The last section is so much better with regards to this. If the whole book was paced at the same speed and handled as well as the last few chapters then those would be occurring about half way through instead of at the end. You didn't really address the characterisation in TGS, or much beyond describing your excitement at how much happened so fast (which I admit, when contrasted with the continental drift that was CoT is a lot) but if I'm going to be fair then I should cover everything. Besides this is one of the things that, with one extremely major exception, I thought was handled very well. Rand's journey through madness is entrancing. Egwene's coming of age is pretty well done, even though she'll never be a character I can actually like because she's way way too perfect 'can do no wrong' 'always knows the right thing to do' 'wiser than her years' etc. she's a super-Aes Sedi robot and for that I can never forgive her, but nonetheless I think her characterisation and character development was very well handled. Gawyn is exactly as annoying as he always has been, which is to say very. Cads is as insufferable as always, Nynaeve is Nynaeve and so on. I thought Semirhage was absolutely butchered though. She's practically comic relief with all her ridiculous posturing; she comes off like a bad b-move horror 'mad doctor' cackling away they she would have gotten away with it but for those blasted kids rather than anything resembling the Evil and sadistic supervillain that everything we've previously been told about her would suggest. I can't believe that she was meant to be ridiculous. We know she was one of the Dark One's inner circle, his closest, strongest, smartest, most nasty, most devious, those who have survived 10 years of infighting, backstabbing and betrayal by the other Chosen, and managed to fight and more-or-less win a war at the same time. There's nothing of that woman in the Semirhage we see - we get a few scenes of 'Evil Doctor Semirhage's House of Horrors' and then one overtly BDSM inspired scene 'breaking' scene which I've even read people here describe as 'hilarious'. The TL:DR version - -Lots of stuff that could and should have been cut by people who know better than to leave a wheel of time writer without some strong editing, but clearly don't care. Bloat. -Poor pacing. Important stuff happens quickly, boring stuff drags out. Much better in the final couple hundred pages. -Characterisation largely very good. Rand - entrancing. Semirhage like a bad b-movie villain.
  9. Tam giving Cadsuane a much needed verbal bitch-slap.
  10. I'm the one guy who voted no. I'm too tired now but I will be back to substantiate my opinion; I don't blame you for your bias, you freely admit how utterly linked you are with Tor and all that so good on you for the honesty. I also appreciate you weren't free, as the admin of The more-or-less official fansite to publish a review containing anything but positives. I leave with two thoughts, which I'll flesh out when it isn't 2am - Pacing. Bloat. Edit : I just wanted to add because this sounds rather negative, that were I writing a review for TGS I wouldn't be coming along to give it zero stars or anything like that. There's plenty of good there and plenty of stuff I enjoyed reading. Yeah perhaps it would be better if I put together a proper review. My point is though that while I had problems with TGS my reaction to it is certainly not entirely negative, and I also feel that there are plenty of parts of your review with which I agree.
  11. Open Gateway. Kill Ruler of a nation. Repeat. Semirhage showed how ridiculously powerful the chosen could have been at causing widespread destruction and chaos if they'd actually tried when she single-handedly caused the entire continent of Seanchan to be taken out of the game with her assassination spree.
  12. Gawyn. Gawyn a thousand times Gawyn.
  13. There are plenty of bits I like, but the endless moronic posturing generally acting like imature teenagers that goes on between the various female channelers makes me want to kill myself.
  14. I always thought the Perrin+Faile stuff was the worst but on a reread I have to say it's Elayne + the andor related stuff. And basically every time there are rival groups of female channellers in a room together hissing at eachother like a bunch of cats getting ready for a fight. If I want actual political intrigue I'll read A Song of Ice and Fire. And while I appreciate the whole theme of communication / co-operation (or rather the conspicuous lack thereof) it's taken to the level of farce in some scenes; I'd rather Rand just took the male CK and glassed the whole WT + Andor + Seafolk and have the world burn than have to read about more of their hissy fits.
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