Who Forasaken are masquerading as. Level 11 Spoilers

[Majsju]

 

I really don't think it reads how you say it. What could RJ be saying? Who else besides Rahvin and Be'lal was balefired to there if that was the criterium?. And if the people listening heard what he said, why did they not write it down? Obviously they could not make out what RJ said, just thought he mentioned a name they did not understand. I would think more natural that Be'lal and this other were less clear, or that he had in fact said, "Be'lal, on the other hand..."

 

So the person making the original post managed to hear so bad at this particular moment (despite using a tape) that he interpreted some rambling from RJ as being a name? And all the people who participate in a discussion about the interview, and who where there themselves to hear what RJ said also share this mysterious hearing problem?

Because nowhere in the original thread does anyone question this. And mind you, the discussion in that thread mostly took place within weeks after the interview, not years later like here.

 

Of course, the interview is just the nail in the coffin, the information provided in the books should be enough by itself to show that Taim is Taim, and not yet another dead forsaken refusing to stay in the ground.

[Graendals favourite]

 

I really don't think it reads how you say it. What could RJ be saying? Who else besides Rahvin and Be'lal was balefired to there if that was the criterium?. And if the people listening heard what he said, why did they not write it down? Obviously they could not make out what RJ said, just thought he mentioned a name they did not understand. I would think more natural that Be'lal and this other were less clear, or that he had in fact said, "Be'lal, on the other hand..."

 

So the person making the original post managed to hear so bad at this particular moment (despite using a tape) that he interpreted some rambling from RJ as being a name? And all the people who participate in a discussion about the interview, and who where there themselves to hear what RJ said also share this mysterious hearing problem?

Because nowhere in the original thread does anyone question this. And mind you, the discussion in that thread mostly took place within weeks after the interview, not years later like here.

Well if it was a name, then why did they not write it down? Despite there being many people to hear? Also, in his answer RJ is discussing the Dark One's limits to securing souls, he is discussing how things are not completely black and white: it will be easier for him to secure a soul that died at Shayol Ghul for example. Rahvin is another extreme example, he was balefired as back in time as makes no matter. So Be'lal and this other person, if person it was, belong to somewhere in between.

 

The discussions often take a sort of collective thinking aspect, the most relevant matters are sometimes missed. Just because RJ speaks lengthily and then finishes: Be'lal, {something else}... does not mean Be'lal equates to exactly what was said previously, yet if enough people in the first discussions assume so, then that becomes the law. Presumably not many at the time even seriously suspected Be'lal of being recycled, so it would not have been something worthy of discussion, to correct the misapprehension that RJ included Be'lal in the same category as Rahvin. When was the interview btw? Ok 2005, well I don't remember Be'lal being discussed at the time at all, then it was either Taimandred or Sammael as I recall, no reason for people to start looking at Taim for Be'lal, at least no more than before or after 2005.

 

 

Of course, the interview is just the nail in the coffin, the information provided in the books should be enough by itself to show that Taim is Taim, and not yet another dead forsaken refusing to stay in the ground.

I don't need to say that this is easy enough to contest  ;)... Taim makes much more sense if he has AoL knowledge, the constant tutelage thing is more difficult to explain his mannerisms in my opinion.

[Majsju]

 

Well if it was a name, then why did they not write it down? Despite there being many people to hear? Also, in his answer RJ is discussing the Dark One's limits to securing souls, he is discussing how things are not completely black and white: it will be easier for him to secure a soul that died at Shayol Ghul for example. Rahvin is another extreme example, he was balefired as back in time as makes no matter. So Be'lal and this other person, if person it was, belong to somewhere in between.

 

The discussions often take a sort of collective thinking aspect, the most relevant matters are sometimes missed. Just because RJ speaks lengthily and then finishes: Be'lal, {something else}... does not mean Be'lal equates to exactly what was said previously, yet if enough people in the first discussions assume so, then that becomes the law. Presumably not many at the time even seriously suspected Be'lal of being recycled, so it would not have been something worthy of discussion, to correct the misapprehension that RJ included Be'lal in the same category as Rahvin. When was the interview btw? Ok 2005, well I don't remember Be'lal being discussed at the time at all, then it was either Taimandred or Sammael as I recall, no reason for people to start looking at Taim for Be'lal, at least no more than before or after 2005.

 

If RJs wording had left even the slightest possibility for hinting at Be'lal not being as dead as it seems, the people present would have jumped all over it, because it would have been a pretty big deal. Since it was at this time well known that forsaken could be recycled, the possibility of Be'lal making an unexpected comeback would have been huge, and it would have sparked a great deal of discussion.

But it did not. It did not cause any discussion over at Theoryland, it did not cause any discussion here (and I know people from DM were present).

For you to years later come and claim that all of these people either heard wrong, or simply did not care about what would have hinted at quite a huge revelation, that is quite a...bold position to take, to put it mildly.

 

 

I don't need to say that this is easy enough to contest  ;)... Taim makes much more sense if he has AoL knowledge, the constant tutelage thing is more difficult to explain his mannerisms in my opinion.

 

Taim has had one single "mannerism" that could hint at him being from the AOL. One.

And that one is very easy to find a logic explanation for.

 

[Alderthal]

Hmm, Taim can't be Be'lal, the balefire thing and not to mention, Taim was alive BEFORE Be'lal was even released into the world. He's what? About 10 years older than Rand? Back then, only Ba'alzamon was alive, and he was partially trapped within the Pit.

 

I think Taim is one of the new Dreadlords, along with his other Ashaman. Them and the Black Ajah will probably serve as the backbone of the Dark One's armies in TG.

 

As for his knowledge, he could've just been taught by one of the Forsaken. We do know that Mesaana taught Alviarin some weaves, so it's not outside the realm of the possible that Taim was taught by one of the male Forsaken and was told about the 'so called Aiel'.

[Graendals favourite]

If RJs wording had left even the slightest possibility for hinting at Be'lal not being as dead as it seems, the people present would have jumped all over it, because it would have been a pretty big deal. Since it was at this time well known that forsaken could be recycled, the possibility of Be'lal making an unexpected comeback would have been huge, and it would have sparked a great deal of discussion.

But it did not. It did not cause any discussion over at Theoryland, it did not cause any discussion here (and I know people from DM were present).

For you to years later come and claim that all of these people either heard wrong, or simply did not care about what would have hinted at quite a huge revelation, that is quite a...bold position to take, to put it mildly.

The Aes Sedai in the books are also often certain that what has "always been agreed" on being must be true...  The position may be bold, yet not really any more bold than it would have been back then. I'm in the habit of not flinching from bold positions when I see something worth examining closer, but I do not know if this was true of the people in the initial discussions back then. I'd say instead of being a big thing, Be'lal being back as Taim would have been seen as a ridiculous proposition, certainly not worth thinking of or discussing. Furthermore, for it to had been discussed by people, the people would have had to look into similarities between Be'lal and Taim, for they would not have been aware of them to any meaningful extent without this, and at the time there was no need to do this if they had not been initially suspecting Be'lal which obviously was not the case. "They knew it then" and "people surely would have considered every possibility" make for a poor authority, worth as much as "I don't know if this is true." I look at the evidence and see what I see.

 

Quote

I don't need to say that this is easy enough to contest  Wink... Taim makes much more sense if he has AoL knowledge, the constant tutelage thing is more difficult to explain his mannerisms in my opinion.

 

Taim has had one single "mannerism" that could hint at him being from the AOL. One.

And that one is very easy to find a logic explanation for.

I don't propose the identity can be proven, at least I have not looked into Taim in a considerable time either. Yet what should be clear is that Taim being Be'lal is completely open.

 

Insert Quote

Hmm, Taim can't be Be'lal, the balefire thing and not to mention, Taim was alive BEFORE Be'lal was even released into the world. He's what? About 10 years older than Rand? Back then, only Ba'alzamon was alive, and he was partially trapped within the Pit.

 

I think Taim is one of the new Dreadlords, along with his other Ashaman. Them and the Black Ajah will probably serve as the backbone of the Dark One's armies in TG.

 

As for his knowledge, he could've just been taught by one of the Forsaken. We do know that Mesaana taught Alviarin some weaves, so it's not outside the realm of the possible that Taim was taught by one of the male Forsaken and was told about the 'so called Aiel'.

Ah, but what would have happened would be that the Dark One would have planted Be'lal to Taim's body after his death. In the same way as Lanfear was planted in presumably Cabriana Mecandes' body. Because bodies that can channel are needed, Taim would have been a useful pick to capture and take to Shayol Ghul for this, just as Cabriana was useful for this purpose with Lanfear needing a new body. Men who can be known to be able to channel are in much shorter a stock.

 

I think Taim's problem, were he like Alviarin, is that he knows too much, and seems to have the Forsaken's attitudes too. Like some Forsaken gave him the full mind-merge, when we pretty much know none of the Forsaken like sharing power by teaching others more than is necessary for their own plans. After all, Taim could even Heal. Taim's governing of the Black Tower does pretty much agree with the BWB saying Be'lal governances were marked by extreme cruelty.

 

[Mr Ares]

Mr Ares, we know absolutely nothing about Bel'al.

We know a little, and what little we know paints a picture of a man quite dissimialr to Be'lal. This has long since been decided, so I wonder why you felt compelled to regurgitate this long-disproven crap?

 

Some sources suggest that he, like Sammael, had been one of the leaders in the fight against the Shadow before he turned to the Dark, and that he envied and later hated Lews Therin. A tall, athletic man with close-cropped silver hair, he combined and surpassed the strengths of both Rahvin and Sammael, being both a patient and cunning planner and a capable fighter willing to do battle directly with the foe....

Nothing about that implies strength in the Power. What the bolded part is referring to is the next part of the sentence - "being both a patient and cunning planner and a capable fighter willing to do battle directly with the foe". Those are the strengths to which it refers.

 

Be'lal was a Dreamwalker.

Was he?

 

Mr. Ares(sorry I'm going to write it correctly, not how you want it spelt)

How I wish my name to be punctuated is the correct way. Without the full stop. Next time you try and correct someone, perhaps you should stop and make sure that your correction is actually correct.

 

Yet what should be clear is that Taim being Be'lal is completely open.

If you twist the evidence and ignore the facts, isn't the same true for anything?

[Graendals favourite]

Taim is almost as strong as Rand in the OP (one of the reason why the Taimandred theory was so popular, his strength is comparable to Demandred's) so what basis do we have that Be'lal was as strong as Demandred? Just saying.

Some sources suggest that he, like Sammael, had been one of the leaders in the fight against the Shadow before he turned to the Dark, and that he envied and later hated Lews Therin. A tall, athletic man with close-cropped silver hair, he combined and surpassed the strengths of both Rahvin and Sammael, being both a patient and cunning planner and a capable fighter willing to do battle directly with the foe....

Nothing about that implies strength in the Power. What the bolded part is referring to is the next part of the sentence - "being both a patient and cunning planner and a capable fighter willing to do battle directly with the foe". Those are the strengths to which it refers.

True enough, yet I posted those as reply to what I added above in the quote. They do form a basis to believe Be'lal was strong enough. Not that anything is proven, but that there is no reason to discredit Be'lal because of strength in power. I did question whether strength in power is included in being a capable fighter, or whether the leading positions go to those strong in the power. However, there is no evidence that Be'lal is weaker that Demandred, significantly at least. Demandred certainly has an over-high opinion about himself.

Be'lal was a Dreamwalker.

Was he?

There is at least one instance that show this. First of all, Be'lal had snatched Alviarin from his dreams to either a dream of his own or to Tel'aran'rhiod, and it seems to me you need to be able to Dreamwalk to do this (This is refered to in CoS). I had thought a man with silver hair had been one offering goblets or such to one of the boys in the books 2 or 3, but I cannot find it now, only find Lanfear and Ishamael. However, the Alviarin reference is plain, it is where Mesaana teaches Alviarin to Travel, Alviarin thinks of her encounters with other Forsaken, Ishamael, Lanfear, Graendal and Be'lal.

 

Yet what should be clear is that Taim being Be'lal is completely open.

If you twist the evidence and ignore the facts, isn't the same true for anything?

True enough. One just has to be right. However, in this instance it is not me twisting evidence, I am pointing the evidence does not show what it is taken to show. The evidence is taken to show what it is taken to show because those who want to show already know what they want it to show, they want it to prove Be'lal is out so they need not consider it. This is very human, but as much as there can be truth in a work of fiction, it has nothing to do with finding the truth, or understanding what is going on. I would think comparing Taim and Be'lal very useful even if they could not be proven to be the same person, is the one better than the other even if Taim were not a Darkfriend?

 

I guess I should change that sentence though, I do think there's a good chance Taim is Be'lal, and the uncertainty is from the lack of closer examination. Making theories is easy after all, checking if they are right is the had part. It is just that nothing I've read here has been very convincing(that is convincing in saying that Be'lal absolutely cannot be Taim), and I do quite hate things being taken for granted when there is no basis for it.

[Majsju]

The Aes Sedai in the books are also often certain that what has "always been agreed" on being must be true...  The position may be bold, yet not really any more bold than it would have been back then. I'm in the habit of not flinching from bold positions when I see something worth examining closer, but I do not know if this was true of the people in the initial discussions back then. I'd say instead of being a big thing, Be'lal being back as Taim would have been seen as a ridiculous proposition, certainly not worth thinking of or discussing. Furthermore, for it to had been discussed by people, the people would have had to look into similarities between Be'lal and Taim, for they would not have been aware of them to any meaningful extent without this, and at the time there was no need to do this if they had not been initially suspecting Be'lal which obviously was not the case. "They knew it then" and "people surely would have considered every possibility" make for a poor authority, worth as much as "I don't know if this is true." I look at the evidence and see what I see.

 

First of all, just because Be'Taim were just as non-existing back then as it is today, people would still have jumped at the slightest of possibility of Be'lal being brought back. Because guess what, there are other people than Taim in WOT...Theories about Be'lal eventually returning have come and gone over the years, mostly because people have some idea that just because we never got to know him, he must return.

 

And also, you have been around long enough that you should be aware of how WOT fans function...Every word RJ ever said was, and still is ridicilously over-analysed. Claiming that just this one time, everyone managed to first hear the exact same thing wrong, that speaks volumes about the merits of the Be'Taim idea.

 

I don't propose the identity can be proven, at least I have not looked into Taim in a considerable time either. Yet what should be clear is that Taim being Be'lal is completely open.

 

It is not open. This thread contains all the information needed to understand why.

 

I think Taim is one of the new Dreadlords, along with his other Ashaman. Them and the Black Ajah will probably serve as the backbone of the Dark One's armies in TG.

 

I would rather say that Taim is the first 3rd Age channeler to be "raised" to the level of Chosen. Granted, in the AOL, every single channeler who turned to the shadow became a Chosen, but with both the DO and the surviving Chosen having a great deal of despise for channelers in the 3rd Age, I think it is a safe bet that nowadays we are talking about being raised, and it takes quite a bit for that to happen.

Taims "little" clique in the BT however, they will be the new dreadlord, together with the BA.

 

Ah, but what would have happened would be that the Dark One would have planted Be'lal to Taim's body after his death. In the same way as Lanfear was planted in presumably Cabriana Mecandes' body. Because bodies that can channel are needed, Taim would have been a useful pick to capture and take to Shayol Ghul for this, just as Cabriana was useful for this purpose with Lanfear needing a new body. Men who can be known to be able to channel are in much shorter a stock.

 

And just when would this have happened? From what we have seen, the transmigration of souls does take some time. Aginor and Balthamel died in TEOTW, and was not brought back until LOC.

In Taims case, it would have meant first him being released from captivity, him starting to flee south, then somewhere along the road he would have been captured by the shadow, and either being returned to roughly the same place as Be'lal recycled, or having someone (Ie a Chosen or a BA) pose as Taim, so that Bashere could have tracks to follow.

It does not quite add up, to put it mildly...

 

I think Taim's problem, were he like Alviarin, is that he knows too much, and seems to have the Forsaken's attitudes too. Like some Forsaken gave him the full mind-merge, when we pretty much know none of the Forsaken like sharing power by teaching others more than is necessary for their own plans. After all, Taim could even Heal. Taim's governing of the Black Tower does pretty much agree with the BWB saying Be'lal governances were marked by extreme cruelty.

 

Just what is it that Taim knows, other than how to test others, that only a Chosen "could" know? If it was so impossible to learn weaves, why would the world be so afraid of male channelers?

As for his governing of the BT, I would say that he is still following Rands order there; Make weapons. The BT is not a kindergarten. And frankly, I have yet to see anything that could be seen as excessive cruelty.

[Graendals favourite]

First of all, just because Be'Taim were just as non-existing back then as it is today, people would still have jumped at the slightest of possibility of Be'lal being brought back. Because guess what, there are other people than Taim in WOT...Theories about Be'lal eventually returning have come and gone over the years, mostly because people have some idea that just because we never got to know him, he must return.

Well I'm sure there have been theories, and by many people, but it has just never surfaced as something popular. It is never mentioned in the faqs as a possibility, for example. This means that the separate theories live for a few discussions and then die, never really coming to the surface. You have more faith in the cohesiveness of the discussions it seems, but I think Be'Taim theory had very little chance of being really considered so long as for example Taimandred was alive, just because so many Taimandred people would have jumped on the new theory in defense of their own and the opponents of Taimandred likewise, and no matter which theory were correct. There are popular theories which are of the kind that spring to mind to the casual reader and these are usually bound to be the most popular, even though they are hardly ever correct.

 

And also, you have been around long enough that you should be aware of how WOT fans function...Every word RJ ever said was, and still is ridicilously over-analysed. Claiming that just this one time, everyone managed to first hear the exact same thing wrong, that speaks volumes about the merits of the Be'Taim idea.

But look at the quote! It does not say Be'lal could not be brought back. I'm not saying the quote was heard wrong, I am saying that as it is it does not support Be'lal could not be recycled. Rahvin was balefired out of time. Be'lal, something else. Someone else besides Be'lal something else. In Shayol Ghul if you die, you can be brought back more easily than elsewhere. When reading what RJ says, one must first understand what he is saying. However, neither in or out of context does he say Be'lal cannot be recycled.

 

Within context, he is saying that the Dark One's ability to grab a soul depends on the circumstances of death. One is that in Shayol Ghul it is easier. Another is that if much time has passed from the death, he can no longer do it. So there is in Shayol Ghul, out of Shayol Ghul. Died like Rahvin, died like Be'lal or (someone else).

 

Discouting context, was this someone Ishamael? Mmm, who else has died? Was it Sammael? Lanfear? It would have helped if the person writing it would have included the info, if we are to interpret what is meant (Or was it they did not know whose name was mentioned, since the omission really is fairly strange otherwise?). Or was it just anyone who has died. Melindhra perhaps? So Be'lal and anyone else who has died cannot be recycled because of this quote? RJ certainly isn't making a list there. The point is, he does not say, "so is Be'lal, and this someone else." If his answer is taken out of context like this, it is impossible to know what he meant about Be'lal, unless the listener wants the answer to contribute to a possible Be'Taim theory.

It is not open. This thread contains all the information needed to understand why.

Well it is certainly open to me, though that just means I will keep it in mind through my next reread. I remember somethings that relate to the possibility, but that is hardly the same as can be achieved by surveying the evidence with an open mind.

 

However, on the last I say that this thread contains much information to understand why some people think Taim cannot be Be'lal, yet looking at the arguments there are rather many unsupported assumptions. The first thing that comes to mind here is that for example Be'lal's character and his MO his evaluated rather superfluously, it is assumed the trap in Tear was Be'lal's alone, even though he cooperated with Lanfear and Ishamael through it all; the fact is that we saw very little of Be'lal in the early books, and cannot say Taim acts in a different way especially when taking into account that the head of the Black Tower and the ruler of Tear as dissimilar positions to be in and that Rand changed from a shepherd to a force to be reckoned with in the mean time.

 

And just when would this have happened? From what we have seen, the transmigration of souls does take some time. Aginor and Balthamel died in TEOTW, and was not brought back until LOC.

In Taims case, it would have meant first him being released from captivity, him starting to flee south, then somewhere along the road he would have been captured by the shadow, and either being returned to roughly the same place as Be'lal recycled, or having someone (Ie a Chosen or a BA) pose as Taim, so that Bashere could have tracks to follow.

It does not quite add up, to put it mildly...

He would have been captured and taken to Shayol Ghul until he was delivered to Andor. Since Bashere did not have some tracking device attached to Taim, he would not know this but would instead have followed word of Taim, or similar tracks. It goes without saying that a Saldaean response to Taim getting free is to be expected, and it would be useful to have a Saldaean army marching aimlessly and away from the Blight. And is it not suspicious that an army was able to follow Taim should he have wished to lose it? Would he ordinarily go about using his own name or something like that?

 

Just what is it that Taim knows, other than how to test others, that only a Chosen "could" know? If it was so impossible to learn weaves, why would the world be so afraid of male channelers?

As for his governing of the BT, I would say that he is still following Rands order there; Make weapons. The BT is not a kindergarten. And frankly, I have yet to see anything that could be seen as excessive cruelty.

Here my memory is lacking, not surprising since I really have not thought of the whole issue in a long time before yesterday. However. It is not impossible to learn to do something dangerous, but it is difficult to learn to do what you want to do. This is why the White Tower does not fear wilders, since they seldom learn to control what they do. Taim is in full control, and has taught an army of Asha'man to be so too. Let me see. It seems fairly obvious that Taim knew how to Travel before Rand taught him, though this cannot be proven. Then there is the problem that Osan'gar joined Taim for a while. Weaves like the one to avoid rain could have come from him. Though I seriously doubt Aginor would have bothered teaching something like that. I will have to read before I can say, however usually, as in Rand's case, and he had both Asmodean and Lews Therin to help, the learning doesn't come easy. I think the Healing is best, that is a complex thing to learn on one's own, easier to harm than help.

 

On the cruelty, well I guess you could call it ruthlessly efficient, yet still we have seen Taim in action only when Rand is there, and Pevara too. Someone speaks out of turn, and crack to the skull. A fair number of casualties in training is of course natural... or were those people who did more than speak out of turn? Or the people who were given wine? Rand thought only madness was meant, but who knows? I mean Rand never asks the Asha'man with him what they think of goings on in the Black Tower. And why exactly was it the wives decided to leave, when they initially wanted to stay? Anyway, I will want to read passages from the Black Tower to guess more, but army command is one thing and a personal cult another.

 

[Graendals favourite]

Must mention immediately here that there is that people's memories affect this issue too. I glimpsed at Taim's intro to Rand, and either he has learned well his personal history at least at a factual level, or he does remember, as his own memories or inserted by the Dark One.

 

The question is bothersome because on one had Semirhage was ordered to question Cabriana, yet Aran'gar knew her life story. It could be that Semirhage would have learned everything then recited things to Aran'gar, yet it seems to me more likely that Semirhage learned about Salidar or some similar info, and her memories were inserted to Aran'gar while in Shayol Ghul. After all, similar things were done to Fain there. However, it is unknown if Cyndane or the other recycled forsaken know anything of the previous lives of their bodies.

 

Just came to mind since on one hand Taim seemed quite convincing in his knowledge of himself, while all the time his manner seemed something other than the Saldaean expected, so while perhaps the Saldaean did not know him well, still Taim's old memories could have been given to Be'lal since it might have been purposeful he pose as the old Taim.

[General Cauthon]

I think the Healing is best, that is a complex thing to learn on one's own, easier to harm than help.

 

But it's still one of the weaves most likely to be known by a wilder. Wilders that come to the White Tower usually know Compulsion, Eavesdropping or Healing. Looking at the Aes Sedai, it seems that Healing is a rather common Talent.

[Majsju]

 

Well I'm sure there have been theories, and by many people, but it has just never surfaced as something popular. It is never mentioned in the faqs as a possibility, for example. This means that the separate theories live for a few discussions and then die, never really coming to the surface. You have more faith in the cohesiveness of the discussions it seems, but I think Be'Taim theory had very little chance of being really considered so long as for example Taimandred was alive, just because so many Taimandred people would have jumped on the new theory in defense of their own and the opponents of Taimandred likewise, and no matter which theory were correct. There are popular theories which are of the kind that spring to mind to the casual reader and these are usually bound to be the most popular, even though they are hardly ever correct.

 

Lets trey this again...There are more people than Taim in WOT. When this interview takes place, we even know that channelers can be recycled in a body of the opposite gender. Ie, believeing Be'lal might return is not the same as believeing Be'lal has come back as Taim, far from it. And believing Be'lal could return as someone other than Taim at least had some merit before RJ shot it down with a single sentence, since it did not bring all the problems specifically tied to Taim.

 

 

But look at the quote! It does not say Be'lal could not be brought back.

 

 

That is exactly what RJ says.

 

Within context, he is saying that the Dark One's ability to grab a soul depends on the circumstances of death. One is that in Shayol Ghul it is easier. Another is that if much time has passed from the death, he can no longer do it. So there is in Shayol Ghul, out of Shayol Ghul. Died like Rahvin, died like Be'lal or (someone else).

 

Well, no. The context is RJ first talking about the limits of the DOs ability to grab souls, and then he gives examples of people who due to this are out of his reach.

 

Discouting context, was this someone Ishamael? Mmm, who else has died? Was it Sammael? Lanfear? It would have helped if the person writing it would have included the info, if we are to interpret what is meant (Or was it they did not know whose name was mentioned, since the omission really is fairly strange otherwise?). Or was it just anyone who has died. Melindhra perhaps? So Be'lal and anyone else who has died cannot be recycled because of this quote? RJ certainly isn't making a list there. The point is, he does not say, "so is Be'lal, and this someone else." If his answer is taken out of context like this, it is impossible to know what he meant about Be'lal, unless the listener wants the answer to contribute to a possible Be'Taim theory.

 

Ah yes, if the missing name had been someone we know has been brought back, it would surely have been left out...Because the people at Theoryland knows so little about WOT that they do not know that Ishy and Lanfear are back on the board.

 

Or perhaps the name was just "Random bloke who got balefired during a fight, I can not recall his name and can not be bothered to look it up because it is not relevant".

 

Hmmm, which one makes more sense...

 

However, on the last I say that this thread contains much information to understand why some people think Taim cannot be Be'lal, yet looking at the arguments there are rather many unsupported assumptions. The first thing that comes to mind here is that for example Be'lal's character and his MO his evaluated rather superfluously, it is assumed the trap in Tear was Be'lal's alone, even though he cooperated with Lanfear and Ishamael through it all; the fact is that we saw very little of Be'lal in the early books, and cannot say Taim acts in a different way especially when taking into account that the head of the Black Tower and the ruler of Tear as dissimilar positions to be in and that Rand changed from a shepherd to a force to be reckoned with in the mean time.

 

You do know that those few chapters in TDR are not the only source of information about Be'lal, right?

 

 

He would have been captured and taken to Shayol Ghul until he was delivered to Andor. Since Bashere did not have some tracking device attached to Taim, he would not know this but would instead have followed word of Taim, or similar tracks. It goes without saying that a Saldaean response to Taim getting free is to be expected, and it would be useful to have a Saldaean army marching aimlessly and away from the Blight. And is it not suspicious that an army was able to follow Taim should he have wished to lose it? Would he ordinarily go about using his own name or something like that?

 

Gotta love Theoryland...

WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

Jordan: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly, traveling quietly is not in his character.

http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910/t/Third-Q-amp-A-Sunday.html

 

Here my memory is lacking, not surprising since I really have not thought of the whole issue in a long time before yesterday. However. It is not impossible to learn to do something dangerous, but it is difficult to learn to do what you want to do. This is why the White Tower does not fear wilders, since they seldom learn to control what they do. Taim is in full control, and has taught an army of Asha'man to be so too. Let me see. It seems fairly obvious that Taim knew how to Travel before Rand taught him, though this cannot be proven. Then there is the problem that Osan'gar joined Taim for a while. Weaves like the one to avoid rain could have come from him. Though I seriously doubt Aginor would have bothered teaching something like that. I will have to read before I can say, however usually, as in Rand's case, and he had both Asmodean and Lews Therin to help, the learning doesn't come easy. I think the Healing is best, that is a complex thing to learn on one's own, easier to harm than help.

 

Healing, eh? The one weave that made Nynaeve start channeling (successfully at her first attempt). Ah yes, totally impossible weave to learn...

 

On the cruelty, well I guess you could call it ruthlessly efficient, yet still we have seen Taim in action only when Rand is there, and Pevara too. Someone speaks out of turn, and crack to the skull. A fair number of casualties in training is of course natural... or were those people who did more than speak out of turn? Or the people who were given wine? Rand thought only madness was meant, but who knows? I mean Rand never asks the Asha'man with him what they think of goings on in the Black Tower. And why exactly was it the wives decided to leave, when they initially wanted to stay? Anyway, I will want to read passages from the Black Tower to guess more, but army command is one thing and a personal cult another.

 

The only thing mentioned here we have actually seen is giving the bloke in KOD a crack to the head. Considering what the bloke was about to say, it should be quite obvious why he needed to be silenced asap. And if that had been an example of any particular "cruelty", every single Asha'man in the room suffers from it, since noone cares.

[Mr Ares]

True enough, yet I posted those as reply to what I added above in the quote. They do form a basis to believe Be'lal was strong enough.

They say nothing about strength in the Power.

 

There is at least one instance that show this. First of all, Be'lal had snatched Alviarin from his dreams to either a dream of his own or to Tel'aran'rhiod, and it seems to me you need to be able to Dreamwalk to do this (This is refered to in CoS).

As far as I am aware, you don't need to be a Dreamwalker to enter T'a'r in the flesh, which grants the ability to manipulate the world of dreams, I don't think it unreasonable that this could be included. Therefore, I wouldn't taske this as evidence of Be'lal as a Dreamwalker. Isn't that Talent supposed to be rare to non-existent in men anyway?

 

It seems fairly obvious that Taim knew how to Travel before Rand taught him, though this cannot be proven.

All that is obvious is that he has heard of Travelling, the evidence does not support him knowing how to do it - for one thing, there is nothing to support him having done it at any point during his flight.

[Graendals favourite]

Lets trey this again...There are more people than Taim in WOT. When this interview takes place, we even know that channelers can be recycled in a body of the opposite gender. Ie, believeing Be'lal might return is not the same as believeing Be'lal has come back as Taim, far from it. And believing Be'lal could return as someone other than Taim at least had some merit before RJ shot it down with a single sentence, since it did not bring all the problems specifically tied to Taim.

Mmm, but isn't that wierd? Cause the sentence doesn't say that Be'lal couldn't be brought back. It's like RJ saying "There's always more of the lighter kind, but there are no black frogs. Dark blue, something else" and people thinking there cannot be any dark blue frogs. Say anyone what they will but RJ has not said there can't be dark blue frogs.

 

Be'lal coming back still has the extra problem of the balefire being small, so I guess people add the problems together and think it makes impossible. However, the problems are still one problem and not impossible. Moiraine's balefire can be compared with the ones with which Rand saved Mat from the Darkhounds, which give an idea of how far back Be'lal was taken: not far. Yet this is still the real problem for Be'lal, not RJ's comment which could be taken to mean he was not recycled or that he was more difficult for the DO to recycle than for example Balthamel.

 

Well, no. The context is RJ first talking about the limits of the DOs ability to grab souls, and then he gives examples of people who due to this are out of his reach.

No, he gives the example of a place where it is easier to grab a soul, and he gives the example of a person who is out of reach because of time, then he mentions Be'lal and someone else and pauses.

 

Ah yes, if the missing name had been someone we know has been brought back, it would surely have been left out...Because the people at Theoryland knows so little about WOT that they do not know that Ishy and Lanfear are back on the board.

 

Or perhaps the name was just "Random bloke who got balefired during a fight, I can not recall his name and can not be bothered to look it up because it is not relevant".

Be it either one, it would certainly help to include. Yes, if they heard a name of Lanfear or someone who should be recognised it would make sense to include this name. But if it was some random bloke who died (you are presuming adding an unknown servant who was balefired, exactly how many people do we know that have been balefired cause I can't think of any besides Rahvin and Be'lal), then that supports my position. Rahvin is one thing, Be'lal and some ordinary chap another.

 

You do know that those few chapters in TDR are not the only source of information about Be'lal, right?

Not the only sources, yes, but to recognise Be'lal by his actions or manner it certainly helps if the information is either direct so we see what he does, or indirect so someone who has actually seen him in action tells of it. Other information becomes much more difficult to use, considering it might partially inaccurate or make an incomplete picture.

 

WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

Jordan: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly, traveling quietly is not in his character.

Well then, that certainly is to the point. I will point out it speaks of how Bashere could follow Taim, but it does not say that Taim was actually there to be followed all the time.

 

The only thing mentioned here we have actually seen is giving the bloke in KOD a crack to the head. Considering what the bloke was about to say, it should be quite obvious why he needed to be silenced asap. And if that had been an example of any particular "cruelty", every single Asha'man in the room suffers from it, since noone cares.

That is true. The Asha'man are all of the elite, but they have fit in with Taim's methods of rule. I'll agree that, while it could be cruel or could be not for all we can say, I cannot at the moment point out anything that would make it so. Perhaps after reread.

 

Healing, eh? The one weave that made Nynaeve start channeling (successfully at her first attempt). Ah yes, totally impossible weave to learn...

Yet Nynaeve had no control over it, sometimes it worked, sometimes not. Of course Taim being trained by someone would cover this as well.

But it's still one of the weaves most likely to be known by a wilder. Wilders that come to the White Tower usually know Compulsion, Eavesdropping or Healing. Looking at the Aes Sedai, it seems that Healing is a rather common Talent.

The Aes Sedai learn Healing at the Tower. While most of the wilders have some trick, at least Moiraine does not include Healing in that in New Spring. The Kin explains why there is knowledge in Healing with the Kin, any Redbelt at least should have known how to Heal.

 

As far as I am aware, you don't need to be a Dreamwalker to enter T'a'r in the flesh, which grants the ability to manipulate the world of dreams, I don't think it unreasonable that this could be included. Therefore, I wouldn't taske this as evidence of Be'lal as a Dreamwalker. Isn't that Talent supposed to be rare to non-existent in men anyway?

Well, T'a'r and the sea of dreams Egwene visits, they are completely different things. At least we haven't seen someone manipulate dreams without sleeping. Perhaps Ishamael does exactly this? It's true, we can't know if Dreamwalking is necessary for that. Though it does mean the whole issue becomes less significant, if everyone who channels and knows how can do it. I think the last was the Wise One's opinion, they would not be looking for Dreamwalkers in men, besides male Aiel who could channel went to die in the Blight (while not connected, being able to channel seems to increase the probability of having other Talents in the books).

All that is obvious is that he has heard of Travelling, the evidence does not support him knowing how to do it - for one thing, there is nothing to support him having done it at any point during his flight.

True.

 

 

 

You know I've now achieved what I can, that is argued some to show Be'Taim can be argued at least. The next is to read and gather evidence, which I don't have time now and will take time anyway, so I will not make further effort there. I did not and do not expect to be able to prove anything here one way or another. If the impression has been made that the issue is not done, it already has been to the extent possible. It is fully possible that Be'lal is Taim but that we cannot prove it, especially since we have not even had a pov from Taim like we have from Aginor, Balthamel and Lanfear. Or something else can be. Either way, I will not attempt it now, at the very least MoL should provide more info on the subject. Besides, the matter is not very important really, who cares if its one devil or another since its a devil anyway.

 

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

Majsju said:

And just when would this have happened? From what we have seen, the transmigration of souls does take some time. Aginor and Balthamel died in TEOTW, and was not brought back until LOC.

 

This is misleading.  The reincarnation timelines do not conflict.  For example, Lanfear/Cyndane takes 121 days maximum to reincarnate.  Be'lal/Taim would have about 113 maximum.  Not a significant difference.

 

Evidence:

Savin 9, 999.  "Be'lal is balefired by Moiraine, who is then attacked by Ba'alzamon."

Amadaine 1, 999.  19 days later.  "News of Mazrim Taim's escape arrives, along with a message from Moiraine about Rand."  The message says Rand has taken the stone.

The distance (as a pigeon flies) from Saldea to Tar Valon is similar to the distance from Tear to Tar Valon, so it is likely the two events happened at nearly the same time.

Nesan 2, 999.  (Nearly) 113 days after Taim's escape.  "Mazrim Taim arrives in Caemlyn."

 

Chorin 21, 999.  "Moiraine and Lanfear disappear through the redstone doorframe ter'angreal, presumed dead."

Jumara 2, 1000.  121 days later.  "Graendal is visited by Moghedien, Cyndane and Shaidar Haran."

 

I hope this demonstrates that the timelines for the Be'lal/Taim theory are sound.

 

Dates and quotes are from:

http://www.users.bigpond.com/steven_cooper/wotchron.htm

[heinrich]

at a book signing - How old is Taim and has he slowed?

 

Jordan says "Taim has slowed, but one thing I am not going to reveal it in the books, so Ill tell you, men slow later than women do. And yes, he has slowed, and he is in his late twenties, yes his late twenties."

 

http://theoryland.yuku.com/forum/viewtopic/id/9921

 

Jordan seems emphatic that he is in his late twenties? So i do not think he is demandred. He does seem the darkfriend type though.

 

[Samudor]

I think it's clear, especially since RJ has come right out and said Taim is not Demandred, that Taim is a new Chosen. Could it be possible that Taim is receiving his own orders from the Dark One unbeknownst to the remaining Chosen? The Dark One is after all the Father of Lies- why would he not then play his pawns coldly, working them blindly? The orders to kill Rand in book 8 came twice- once from Demandred, and once from Taim. Why the distinction? I believe that Taim is getting his marching orders from the Dark One directly...perhaps Shaidar Haran? The timing, fits- Taim arrives on the scene right when the Dark One switches strategies, trying a more subtle approach when bullying didn't work.

 

Furthermore, let us not forget how easily young men become overproud. Taim is still a young man, his ego is inflated given that few men in the world wield power greater than he. He is too strong to be Belal, as in book 3 I believe Be'lal is described as being weaker in the power than the others. Belal is a net weaver....what Taim is doing is not that subtle, and would easily have been countered if Rand had been paying attention.

 

Taim is Taim, a new Chosen, who thinks he is greater than he is.

[Jethro]

I cant see anything at all to hint that Taim is Chosen, simply because we dont know 100% that hes a Darkfriend. I mean we know he is, but we dont know he is. In the same breath I think Taim coiuld very well have been the unknown channeler who ordered Slayer to kill Rand, but that doesnt mean that hes Chosen

[Samudor]

That's true, no one has come out and said..."Taim is a Darkfriend..." but seriously.."Let the Lord of Chaos rule?" That is a big flag waving  I am a Darkfriend!!!!!

 

I also think Taim was behind the attack in book 11. The Chosen don't know who it was(or at least they are pretending not to know), and it strikes me as a blunt sort of proud thing to do- something that fits Taim to a T. I think that attack, if it was Taim, is a sign that he is trying to take initiative. Perhaps in striking out for himself, Taim will unwittingly interfere with the Dark One's plans.

[Mr Ares]

This is misleading. The reincarnation timelines do not conflict. For example, Lanfear/Cyndane takes 121 days maximum to reincarnate. Be'lal/Taim would have about 113 maximum. Not a significant difference.

But we know where Taim was during this time - Bashere was following him. So he escaped, then Be'lal, not Taim, started drawing Bashere South? And that quote Maj posted, about how they followed him. A man like Taim leaves a trail, because travelling quietly is not in his nature. But it is not Taim's nature, but Be'lal's, if we accept this theory. By RJ's statement, how can we accept anyone other than Taim being involved in that flight? If we accept that they followed Taim, then there is no time for Taim's disappearance, followed by his reappearance as Be'lal. Where does it fit in?

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

But we know where Taim was during this time

Bashere believes that he was following Taim, but that might not be true.  The same people who aided his escape could have led the army south by spreading rumors of Taim.  There is only circumstantial evidence that Taim fled south after his escape.

 

WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

Jordan: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly, traveling quietly is not in his character.

This quote does not confirm that Taim made the trail himself.

[DaTaimsta]

I think it's clear, especially since RJ has come right out and said Taim is not Demandred, that Taim is a new Chosen. Could it be possible that Taim is receiving his own orders from the Dark One unbeknownst to the remaining Chosen? The Dark One is after all the Father of Lies- why would he not then play his pawns coldly, working them blindly? The orders to kill Rand in book 8 came twice- once from Demandred, and once from Taim. Why the distinction? I believe that Taim is getting his marching orders from the Dark One directly...perhaps Shaidar Haran? The timing, fits- Taim arrives on the scene right when the Dark One switches strategies, trying a more subtle approach when bullying didn't work.

 

Furthermore, let us not forget how easily young men become overproud. Taim is still a young man, his ego is inflated given that few men in the world wield power greater than he. He is too strong to be Belal, as in book 3 I believe Be'lal is described as being weaker in the power than the others. Belal is a net weaver....what Taim is doing is not that subtle, and would easily have been countered if Rand had been paying attention.

 

Taim is Taim, a new Chosen, who thinks he is greater than he is.

 

I'm beginning to like this theory. It's more likely than any others I've heard so far. Rahvin and perhaps Be'lal are permanently gone, two of the Dark One's better weapons, so he needs replacements. Taim would certainly fit, since he's quite possibly stronger than both Rahvin and Be'lal in the Power. We also see him make some slips Rahvin and Be'lal would not have made while trying to manipulate Rand, so he may be new at his craft.

 

We also have to look at Alviarin. Mesaana was grooming her to become a great channeler. Maybe Alviarin and Taim were meant to become new Forsaken, despite the fact that Alviarin is weaker than normal Forsaken.

 

Keeping the Forsaken blind to each other's workings also fit in to the DO's style. He has darkfriends and Black Ajah work for him and they don't even know who they're working with sometimes.

[Mr Ares]

But we know where Taim was during this time

Bashere believes that he was following Taim, but that might not be true.  The same people who aided his escape could have led the army south by spreading rumors of Taim.  There is only circumstantial evidence that Taim fled south after his escape.

 

WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

 

Jordan: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly, traveling quietly is not in his character.

This quote does not confirm that Taim made the trail himself.

Yes, it does. All the evidence we have indicates that Bashere followed Taim, not someone else pretending to be Taim. And when Taim shows up in Caemlyn, he had been sleeping rough. There really isn't enough time unaccounted for at any point for Taim to have had Be'lal stuffed inside him. Furthermore, it requires significant distortion of the evidence to imagine someone else other than Taim, even someone else in Taim's body, leaving the trail for Bashere and spending all that time in a ditch, and the reasons RJ has given for him going to Caemlyn do not add up to any conclusion besides the obvious one - Taim is Taim. The weight of evidence cannot be countered. Be'lal cannot be Taim. Oh, and this circumstantial evidence - that would be the fact that he turned up to the South? That Bashere managed to track him to Andor, and the only reason he didn't track him further is he didn't want to start a possible war by bringing an army into another country without permission?

[lt;(^-^)gt;]

All the evidence we have indicates that Bashere followed Taim, not someone else pretending to be Taim. And when Taim shows up in Caemlyn, he had been sleeping rough.

This is a good example of what I mean by circumstantial evidence.

 

Furthermore, it requires significant distortion of the evidence to imagine...

I don't see how the evidence is distorted.  Bashere is the one who followed Taim but never says that he saw Taim; in fact RJ says that he was following a trail.  Bashere does not prove that he was actually following Taim.

 

Oh, and this circumstantial evidence - that would be the fact that he turned up to the South? That Bashere managed to track him to Andor, and the only reason he didn't track him further is he didn't want to start a possible war by bringing an army into another country without permission?

Yes.  Taim knows about Travelling, maybe knows how to Travel.  Turning up somewhere south of where he started does not mean he went south to begin with, or that he walked/rode the whole distance.

 

Taim is Taim. The weight of evidence cannot be countered.

This is where I believe you have distorted the evidence.  Is it really impossible to overcome the evidence we have so far?  Taim has a great alibi, but it is not impossible that the alibi is a deceit.  This would be a huge surprise, but not beyond the realm of possibility, however remote.

 

***EDIT***

I AM NOT CLAIMING THIS HELPS THE TAIM/BE'LAL THEORY!

I just listened to the 4th Age Podcast #44, and Brandon reveals there was a part where he was reading the notes, and (I quote):

there's another viewpoint that has a big surprise but I can't mention it because then it gives things away things about, you know, the story...there was one where I read...and I said 'What?!' and then I'm like 'Oh, I guess that does make sense'

(at about 19 minutes).

I wonder what made a hardcore WoT fan say that?  AMoL is going to surprise us in many ways, I expect.

[Asgard Thorin]

Hmm, Taim can't be Be'lal, the balefire thing and not to mention, Taim was alive BEFORE Be'lal was even released into the world. He's what? About 10 years older than Rand? Back then, only Ba'alzamon was alive, and he was partially trapped within the Pit.

 

I think Taim is one of the new Dreadlords, along with his other Ashaman. Them and the Black Ajah will probably serve as the backbone of the Dark One's armies in TG.

 

As for his knowledge, he could've just been taught by one of the Forsaken. We do know that Mesaana taught Alviarin some weaves, so it's not outside the realm of the possible that Taim was taught by one of the male Forsaken and was told about the 'so called Aiel'.

Alderthal, if Aginor and Balthamael could be given 3rd Age bodies, any recycled Forsaken could...and that body could theorectically have been that of Mazrim Taim. Also, Isam's soul was stuffed into the same body as Luc, Rand's maternal uncle. Taim has a symbol used by male Forsaken, he seems(to some of us) to know things he should not, and somehow he brought the Asha'man to Dumai's Wells. Wouldn't he have to know where Rand was? Only Ishaamael seems to be able to track taveren. I think we all agree Ishy was recycled, transmigrated is the official term. Given how Book Eleven ended, on top of RJ stating that balefire did not automatically prevent transmigration(that is the caveat) I launched this thread. We know that Taim does not have Rand's best interests at heart. It makes sense for a recycled Forsaken to be at the heart of Rand's Ashaman to ensure that ultimately they fail (The Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood...and sisters will walk its grounds)(Elaida to Alviarhin, Book Seven? I probably did not get that quote verbatim).

I think the Lord of Chaos is Rand, and that the Bad Guys are acting on the assumption that his taveren-ness will ultimately be better for them as it was in the AoL(thirty plus centuries of all male powerers going mad). If Bel'al was recycled it would be the perfect opportuinity for him to hide from the other Chosen while still serving the DO. He is the NetWeaver, and only the Nae'blis might know.If the LoC is Rand that could explain very much.

 

On a completely different note, if Moridin is not Taim and if Bel'al(the one Forsaken RJ did not develope, a circumstantial argument for his recycling)is not Taim, then who could Moridin be? I have two possibilities, both based off of a question. Do we have any evidence of Moridin actually using saidin? If he is only using the True Power, then he might be anyone....like Asunwa(sp?) the chief Questioner....or even Masema. Has Moridin ever channeled that we know of?