How do you think Season 1 will end?

[Rose]

35 minutes ago, Александр Чудинов said:

Sorry but this is just plain wrong. So what, we can't have one character with something unusual about them? It's perfectly normal to have just one white/black/trans/burrito-lover/alien-mutant from Alpha-Centauri character in the book and make them villain. C'mon it's just one of character's characteristics, and it's fiction. You don't have to make assumptions of some "idea reinforcing" from that.

 

There are no assumptions. We're not talking about the *intent* of the author or creators. We're talking about the net result when a certain group is only ever portrayed a certain way in media, and the subconscious stereotypes that will reinforce even with the best of intentions.

[Александр Чудинов]

30 minutes ago, Rose said:

We're not talking about the *intent* of the author or creators.

Neither do I. What I'm saying is that forcing creators to make what is correct (e.g. certain group must be portrayed a certain way in media) is generally bad. Again, it's fiction. It's not propaganda. We had a period in our history, when any fiction was supposed to be propaganda in some way and correspond to the "general line of the party", or you simply would not be published. Many good books were unavailable to readers at the time because of that and many good authors suffered.

 

30 minutes ago, Rose said:

is only ever portrayed a certain way in media

Is it really?

 

Again, following the topic. What do you think, does the show really need to have some cliffhanger at the end of the season? Yes, many shows do it nowadays, but maybe it would be preferable to come to some logical conclusion in narrative as far as it's possible. So viewers are like "ok, that was nice" and not "omg i can't wait another year for the continuation".

Edited November 13, 2021 by Александр Чудинов

[AusLeviathan]

52 minutes ago, Александр Чудинов said:

What do you think, does the show really need to have some cliffhanger at the end of the season?

I'm not even sure how they could avoid a cliffhanger. There's no doubt that we'll end with the Forsaken having been released and Rand revealed to be the Dragon Reborn so based on that we're going to end up with a cliffhanger regardless of how they get there.

 

I kind of think they might move Ishamael's death to the EOTW (Turak and Be'lal become bigger threats in Falme and Tear as a result to compensate), do the whole Rand thinks he's killed the Dark One and then Moiraine's like "The Dark One wouldn't have a body", cue the EOTW being drained causing one of the seals of the Dark One's prison to break and we end with the Forsaken being released.

Edited November 13, 2021 by AusLeviathan

[Rose]

2 hours ago, Александр Чудинов said:

Neither do I. What I'm saying is that forcing creators to make what is correct (e.g. certain group must be portrayed a certain way in media) is generally bad. Again, it's fiction. It's not propaganda. We had a period in our history, when any fiction was supposed to be propaganda in some way and correspond to the "general line of the party", or you simply would not be published. Many good books were unavailable to readers at the time because of that and many good authors suffered.

 

This isn't censorship. Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything. We are, however, allowed to point out when something is hurtful. And we're allowed to wish for media that doesn't harm us.

 

But you don't seem to believe that harmful stereotypes even exist so I don't think there's much point in arguing about this.

[SinisterDeath]

2 hours ago, Александр Чудинов said:

Is it really?

Yes.

 

Imagine for instance, a group of people who have been harassed and prosecuted for centuries.

Next, imagine that group is attributed certain characteristics, and finally certain actions are constantly being attributed to that group.

 

In "Film", it was very rare to have good trans characters. We often only saw trans characters in a negative light. In media (News, TV & Movies) we often saw these 3 types of stories.

1) Perverted Men wearing women's clothes into women's locker rooms.

2) The forced gender flop like the the movie "The Hot Chick"/"Freaky" which invariably includes a criminal switching places with a teenage girl.

3) A Guy/Girl dressing up as a Girl/Boy, lying to everyone so they can get what they want. E.g. "Mrs. Doubtfire", "Ladybugs" and "Just one of the Guys" are some examples.

That isn't to say those movies are malicious, or bad; But at a subconscious level they are problematic for that community.
It might not be an issue in your country, but #3 & #1 have only enforced the idea that people in the trans community are pervs that want to watch your children use the bathroom.
In America, this has led to many assaults, murders, and suicides in that community because some people erroneously believe that trans = pedophiles/perverts. 
 

That isn't to say Trans characters are never allowed to be a bad person, or a villain in Media.

It's just problem-some, if the only representation that demographic gets in media/show is that of the bad guy/villain. Just like if the only Asian/Jewish/Black/White/Muslim/Christian/etc characters in a movie are bad guys. 

[king of nowhere]

57 minutes ago, Rose said:

 

This isn't censorship. Nobody's forcing anyone to do anything.

 

the border between censorship and free speech is not so clear cut. sure, nobody is putting you in jail, but if you face too much backlash on social media and it disrupts your career, it's not freedom either.

 

the information age should have promoted communication, inclusion, understanding. and yet i see everywhere people ostracized, and like-minded people forming close communities where they refuse contact with other ideas. free information is easier than ever to find, and yet we have more flat-earthers, more no vax, more conspiracy theory guys than ever.

something went wrong somewhere

[Ralph]

My assumption is that gender dichotomy might have been considered an issue because it doesn't allow for trans individuals to exist. (This is if you assume that channeling and the soul link with identity rather than body, as discussed elsewhere. ) It would also not allow for any range in gender identity. 

 

Halima is offensive not bc she is the only representation, but bc it is a punishment from the Dark One and clearly not natural

[Rose]

3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

the border between censorship and free speech is not so clear cut. sure, nobody is putting you in jail, but if you face too much backlash on social media and it disrupts your career, it's not freedom either.

 

the information age should have promoted communication, inclusion, understanding. and yet i see everywhere people ostracized, and like-minded people forming close communities where they refuse contact with other ideas. free information is easier than ever to find, and yet we have more flat-earthers, more no vax, more conspiracy theory guys than ever.

something went wrong somewhere

 

The context of this conversation is that we were talking about Halima's portrayal and how it reinforces stereotypes and ideas that harm trans people.

 

RJ hasn't been ostracized, hasn't faced backlash, hasn't had his career disrupted. The vast majority of those in the fandom who are concerned about this issue agree that he meant no harm and simply didn't realize the implications of what he was writing. 

 

That being said, we hope that the showrunners know better now and will take steps to correct this in the show.

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Rose said:

That being said, we hope that the showrunners know better now and will take steps to correct this in the show.

The easiest of which, of course, is simply to eliminate Halima. 

[Deadsy]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

My assumption is that gender dichotomy might have been considered an issue because it doesn't allow for trans individuals to exist. (This is if you assume that channeling and the soul link with identity rather than body, as discussed elsewhere. ) It would also not allow for any range in gender identity. 

 

Halima is offensive not bc she is the only representation, but bc it is a punishment from the Dark One and clearly not natural

 

 

I fully understand the take on Halima and agree, and think the character should not be reborn. But this has made me wonder, because I know trans people but am not good friends with any, do trans people feel their biological sex is a mistake? I know this sounds like it has a totally obvious answer, but maybe there are some who feel it was a part of who they are that they wouldn’t change. But it makes me wonder if in an ideal world trans people actually wouldn’t exist, because everyone’s gender would match their biological sex so no one has to make changes to feel right. (But then I know not everyone has a binary biological sex either).

 

I highly doubt any of this entered RJ’s head when he was writing it. And I don’t think it’s a reason to not include trans characters. It’s just a thought I had.

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Deadsy

[Rose]

3 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

The easiest of which, of course, is simply to eliminate Halima. 

 

Agreed. They already need to cut a ton, and this one's one of the easiest.

[king of nowhere]

1 hour ago, Rose said:

 

The context of this conversation is that we were talking about Halima's portrayal and how it reinforces stereotypes and ideas that harm trans people.

 

RJ hasn't been ostracized, hasn't faced backlash, hasn't had his career disrupted. The vast majority of those in the fandom who are concerned about this issue agree that he meant no harm and simply didn't realize the implications of what he was writing. 

 

That being said, we hope that the showrunners know better now and will take steps to correct this in the show.

i was talking on a more general level. no, rj didn't face bad backlash. i'm not familiar enough with the show business to quote relevant examples.

 

but i am mildly concerned with the segregation of opinions I'm seeing. the whole "like" mechanism promotes conformism, and the way the mechanism works, putting first the comments with more likes, minority opinions are silenced. in turn, those minories go on to make their own forums, were they get more and more extreme.

and political correctness is not enforced by law, but still there is a big pressure for it.

 

Now, I am not a fool, I realize those issues are unavoidable. there is always a compromise to be found between free speech and instigating crimes. there is always a social pressure to conform, whether in opinions or just in the way to dress.

So, I do not believe we live in a society of political correctness gone mad. However, I do believe we could get there, if we are too hasty in labeling "hate speech" everything we disagree with, or everything that may be hurtful to someone.

In short, i disagree with the "too much woke" train, but i am symphatetic to them, and i believe we must not push too far, or they may become right.

 

all of this has nothing to do with the specific character of halima. incidentally, i never realize the connection between her and transsexuality until i started reading internet forums.

Edited November 13, 2021 by king of nowhere

[Rose]

8 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

i was talking on a more general level. no, rj didn't face bad backlash. i'm not familiar enough with the show business to quote relevant examples.

 

but i am mildly concerned with the segregation of opinions I'm seeing. the whole "like" mechanism promotes conformism, and the way the mechanism works, putting first the comments with more likes, minority opinions are silenced. in turn, those minories go on to make their own forums, were they get more and more extreme.

and political correctness is not enforced by law, but still there is a big pressure for it.

 

Now, I am not a fool, I realize those issues are unavoidable. there is always a compromise to be found between free speech and instigating crimes. there is always a social pressure to conform, whether in opinions or just in the way to dress.

So, I do not believe we live in a society of political correctness gone mad. However, I do believe we could get there, if we are too hasty in labeling "hate speech" everything we disagree with, or everything that may be hurtful to someone.

In short, i disagree with the "too much woke" train, but i am symphatetic to them, and i believe we must not push too far, or they may become right.

 

all of this has nothing to do with the specific character of halima. incidentally, i never realize the connection between her and transsexuality until i started reading internet forums.

 

These are all valid concerns, and I agree with most of your points. I was thrown off because you brought this up as I was responding to someone who claimed Halima wasn't a problem, so I thought you were agreeing with them, or saying we shouldn't want that portrayal to be changed.

Edited November 13, 2021 by Rose

[WhiteVeils]

Keeping Halima as just a normal darkfriend, not a reborn Forsaken, who happens to be male in a female body keeps 100% of the plot elements for Halima and trans without it being a punishment or anything.  On discovery, someone could say 'We know there have been people with this sort of spirit,  but never considered what it would mean if such people could channel.'  This changes being trans to a normal, but rare, aspect of society, lets that be known that it occurs, while keeping the essence of that plot (if they keep it).

[Guire]

48 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Keeping Halima as just a normal darkfriend, not a reborn Forsaken, who happens to be male in a female body keeps 100% of the plot elements for Halima and trans without it being a punishment or anything.  On discovery, someone could say 'We know there have been people with this sort of spirit,  but never considered what it would mean if such people could channel.'  This changes being trans to a normal, but rare, aspect of society, lets that be known that it occurs, while keeping the essence of that plot (if they keep it).

But then if Halima is only Trans in show then we are right back at beginning of argument.  I am far from a LGBTQ activist or ally.  The gay people in my life are mostly hyper competent and don't need much advocacy.  I have my own sheep to tend with 3 of my children who may need some type of help/supervision for life. To me the way to solve this fairly would be for a few cultures in Randland to have out open Trans and binary people that occupy an accepted role in their culture and contrast it with maybe Tear where it is completely shunned.  Maybe in Kandor Trans men have a long tradition of military service or Arad Doman Binary people have a special form of singing or dancing where their talents are prized.  That would be completely in line with Randland.

[Deadsy]

58 minutes ago, WhiteVeils said:

Keeping Halima as just a normal darkfriend, not a reborn Forsaken, who happens to be male in a female body keeps 100% of the plot elements for Halima and trans without it being a punishment or anything.  On discovery, someone could say 'We know there have been people with this sort of spirit,  but never considered what it would mean if such people could channel.'  This changes being trans to a normal, but rare, aspect of society, lets that be known that it occurs, while keeping the essence of that plot (if they keep it).

 

I think this is ok as long as he is not the only trans person.

[ManetherenTaveren]

I don't see how they could resist bringing a "Halima" into the show, simply because of the strict (possibly naive) understanding of the nature of saidar/saidin. It may even bring about a fascinating sideline discourse that RJ did not pursue. Of course it would definitely bring out an animated viewer discussion, no matter how "she/they" is/are represented.  

 

I am thrilled that by having this discussion, folks are anticipating many more seasons of WoT! ?

 

Then again, circling back to the topic of the end of season 1, what if after Rand and the Green Man mortally handle Balthamel, we get an epilogue implying the Dark One punishing his lost Forsaken and subsequently sending forth "Halima/Aran'gar" into the world...? Light!  Too soon?   

[ForsakenPotato]

16 hours ago, Александр Чудинов said:

Sorry but this is just plain wrong. So what, we can't have one character with something unusual about them?

I did not say anyone couldn't have anything and I'm sorry that's how it was interpreted. Halima was just an example, but I don't see any calls to censor the books, or re-publish them without the character, or ban them in public libraries, from myself or anyone else. It's not "just plain wrong" to state that Halima is a character that specific communities take issue with, given that so many people on these forums have already expressed frustration with how her character is portrayed. It doesn't mean the character can't exist, it does mean that it might have audience consequences.

 

An artist or writer should be able to express whatever they want, as popular or unpopular as it may be, and people like ourselves can freely choose to spend money and time on it accordingly. I am not arguing against free speech. But we are not talking about one artist expressing their individual artistic vision. We are talking about Amazon, and they just want a TV show that can make as much money as possible. They are going to be considering whether a character like Halima is likely to bring in more viewers or alienate potential viewers, and I agree that removing the character or changing the context around them is extremely likely in that light. I happen to also think it would be the right thing to do to make the series more inclusive and fun, but I'd be more naive than Rand at the start of the books to believe Amazon cares about my feelings (beyond how much they affect my spending).

 

Anyway, that's not super on-topic since it would be most relevant to later seasons. I think season 1 will end with an episode that has something dragon prophecy related at the start, and then the reveal of Rand as the dragon somewhere in the last third, and some happy "look friends, we survived" scenes at the end (but with ominous overtones of future peril). I think the title of the episode will have "dragon" in it, hence them not releasing the last episode titles yet. In the books if I recall correctly, at the end of EotW Rand knows he can channel but not yet that anyone believes he's the dragon reborn. Given that in the show Moiraine seems much more direct about looking for the dragon reborn specifically, the show the dragon reveal might be to the audience as well as to Rand.

[swollymammoth]

On 11/12/2021 at 4:46 PM, ForsakenPotato said:

This is why the character Halima might be an issue to the trans community: they are the only potentially trans character in the books, it is a punishment, they have very little character development, and they reinforce the idea that trans people are duplicitous and dangerous.

Only if you view Halima as a stand-in for trans people on the whole rather than treating her as an individual. As I explained, this is objectification. You've also unnecessarily limited the parameters of your critical examination to the WoT narrative. Why do this when WoT exists within a rich entertainment ecosystem in which people looking for positive reflections of themselves can find them elsewhere? It's complaining there's no peanut butter in the pantry when its actually on the counter by the stove.

 

I believe we make a grave mistake when we take global goals (such as producing adequate representation in media) and then lay the responsibility at the feet of individual works. What I mean by this is that representation goals can theoretically be met on a scale as large as, say, the fantasy genre. However, even in such an environment, it is likely that no single work will possess ALL the necessary representation or even MOST of the representation. (Not to mention that the nature of intersectional identities is that of an exercise whose logical end point is the individual). 

 

The point is that stories are highly specialized, and that's okay because an ecosystem of highly specialized individual works can still produce the desired global result (i.e. representation). 

 

So, if Halima is viewed as an artifice and viewed solely in the context of WoT, she is problematic. But if she is viewed in the lens of literature and culture at large (which is immensely supportive of trans-people and offers multitudes of sources from which to draw the validation they don't get from Halima), not to mention a real person whose nature is completely justified within her home narrative, then the issue vanishes. 

 

It's just that we as a culture have developed this habit of narrowing the scope of our analysis in order to produce our desired outcomes. 

Edited November 14, 2021 by swollymammoth
sp

[Rose]

4 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Only if you view Halima as a stand-in for trans people on the whole rather than treating her as an individual. As I explained, this is objectification.

 

Halima is the only character with these characteristics in the story. If there were other characters who were trans and portrayed in a thoughtful way, this would be less of an issue. But Halima is the only one. That's what makes it a stand-in.

 

To fix this, there are two options:

1. remove Halima

2. add other characters who are explicitly trans and who do not have Halima's problematic characteristics

 

Option 1 is probably the easiest of the two, and should make you happy, since you're so against adding representation that isn't already there.

 

4 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

literature and culture at large (which is immensely supportive of trans-people and offers multitudes of sources from which to draw the validation they don't get from Halima)

 

This is objectively untrue. Media that offers accurate, positive and nuanced trans representation is very limited and very niche at the moment. I challenge you to name one big mainstream fantasy movie or show with this kind of representation.

 

But you also seem to mistake the issue. This isn't about "validation." It isn't even about trans fans or viewers. It's about everyone else. Everyone who doesn't know or hasn't thought much about trans people in general, and is at risk of unconsciously internalizing harmful ideas about them if the portrayal isn't thoughtful.

 

Tim has done a much better breakdown than I ever could, so I'll just leave it here for your reference.

 

On 11/11/2021 at 8:36 PM, Tim said:

To my mind there are two problems with the idea of "Halima/Arang'ar as trans", and reasons to junk the whole plot:

 

1. It happens by the direct act of the DO, to an evil character, and partly as punishment for Ba'athamel's prior failure - this has been discussed upthread, but obviously it's just not something that actual trans people would be likely to recognise as having anything to do with their lived experience, let alone an indication that their experience is considered valid. 

 

2. Moreover, the whole "there's someone chaneling saidin to kill female aes sedai who we can't find because - gasp - they look like a woman!" plot with Halima feels way too close to social moral panic around trans women and in particular the fear of trans women using female bathrooms in order to sexually assault biological women.

 

I don't think Jordan intended either of the above in the way that they would be received now (and in the books I enjoyed how it was Romanda, of all people, who finally worked it out) but it is what it is - and it would be naïve to handwave the issue away. The show is being made now and so the showrunners have to take responsibility for what they choose to reproduce from the books.

 

But I'm also pretty confident that RJ would not write this plot in the same way today; whatever he might privately have thought on the issue, the continuing political prominence of debates over public bathroom laws (primarily in the US south) would have caused him to realise that there was no way that the plot would be received as anything other than a barely-disguised political metaphor - ironically, the very thing so many people seem worried Rafe will inject into the show.

 

Now, if you don't think good representation is valuable or necessary, or if you don't believe mainstream media has a responsibility to avoid causing harm to marginalized groups, then we probably don't need to argue about this any further.

Edited November 14, 2021 by Rose

[Tim]

I agree with Rose.

 

I don’t think the answers to these questions will be the same for every book or every tv show.

 

No work of art has a responsibility to represent all facets of human life, but RJ sure tried very hard to make it seem like he had captured as broad a cross-section as humanly possible.

 

This creates a complicating factor for WOT: the sheer number and variety of characters RJ created (and despite culling, the show will still end up with an unusually broad cast of characters with a variety of backgrounds  and characteristics). That makes Halima’s ‘special case’ features more troubling, and makes her seem more like an embodiment of a general view about gender and sexuality at large rather than just another particular character.

 

And in a sense I think that is actually correct: at least one aspect of the Arang’ar / Halima plot line seems to have been RJ strongly suggesting that, at least in his view, our bodies largely determine our sense of self. Halima becomes increasingly “female”, and increasingly comfortable with that, as the books go on, as if her own sense of gender and sexuality gradually conforms to her new body. From one perspective this was a surprising or complicating stance for RJ to take given the books’ fairly stark differential between men and women, but it also kind of goes both too far and not far enough: he sets up this interesting “what if?” but doesn’t really do much with it, such that the end result seems superficial (arguably this is true of all RJ’s treatment of issues touching on sex and sexuality).

 

For the TV show to essentially reproduce what was basically a half-formed thought experiment on RJ’s part would be bad tv writing as much as anything else.

 

 

[JaimAybara]

There are so many examples of subconscious or implicit bias against the trans community as well as other groups in the LGBT community it’s pretty astonishing, but I would argue the trans community has been hit the hardest over the years and by very high profile movies too. Those movies are consumed by massive audiences along with the negative portrayals which are then internalized. Many examples people don’t even remember or notice. 
 

Ace Ventura Pet Detective (murderer and vomit jokes after kissing), Silence of the Lambs (serial killer and mentally ill), Mrs. Doubtfire (mentally ill/potentially a deviant) Anger Management, (the prostitution scene), Some Like it Hot (debatably progressive for its time but still makes a bunch of jokes), Willow…(not a woman, not a woman!) some to higher degrees than others but their community has traditionally been either the center of jokes or made into villains since the beginning of cinema without any notion of heroics. 
 

Imagine whatever group you identify with whether it’s your sexual identity, racial identity, or religious identity etc. you pick…and the only time you ever got any representation on the silver screen it was either as a joke or as a serial killer, for like 100 years. The only movie or show I’ve seen where someone that is trans is made to be heroic and had decent screen time is Big Sky, and that came out last year. So, in the case of Halima…can a trans person be a villain? Of course. Just as much as anyone else. But the question is, would this simply conform to Hollywood’s prolific track record of only portraying this community in a negative light? (And on a global scale no less).

Edited November 15, 2021 by JaimAybara

[WhiteVeils]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:11 PM, Deadsy said:

 

I think this is ok as long as he is not the only trans person.

I think, if Halima /is/ included, and included as a normal darkfriend as before, I would 100% think that it would be appropriate to have another trans person in the cast.  For example, Lord Dobraine, maybe, or another one of the Lords supportive of Rand, might be a good choice.

[Spiritweaver1]

Now that we are well into the series I will hopefully reactivate this thread with my prediction.

 

 I foretell that E8 ends with our plucky gang trapped in the blight surrounded by trollocs and dare I hope for a pack of worms.   Hopefully the events of Fal Dara will be captured reasonably faithfully especially the dungeon scene with our boy Fain.  However, with the way we are going, who knows.  It will be an old style cliff hanger.  Any ground lost by not finishing EOTW can be made up easily since the Amerlyn won't need to come to Fal Dara to meet our gang.  Where the story will go from there not even the wise can tell.

[Sabio]

I think people are reading too much into RJ making Halima.  She had two jobs, make sure the rebels didn't quit and join the tower and kill people using the male half of the source.  To ensure the Aes Sedai less likely to align with the Asha'man.  No one can detect her channeling and she can give Egwene pointless headaches.