Will the show be good? Our hopes and concerns

[Deadsy]

13 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

the eg and Min stuff actually came from this thread 

the DR Stuff is not that big of a leap, also I have not seen Rafe say "Rand is DR" 
I have seen Rafes Quote that there have been female dragons in the past, and even in the trailers there is supporting evidence such as "one of you 5" and "we dont know weather the dragon is a boy or a girl" 

I dont Trust Rafe (or any writer/ director for that matter)  not to go full ham on these changes - Particularly when they are in the trailers 
if they are willing to make those changes, how much farther will they go .... they have already basically said they know how Jordan would be writing if he were still alive and that makes these Lore altering changes ok 

how many Other IP's are out there that have been RUINED by a Writer/director thinking they know better than the creator, I just dont want to see it of this series, Im not saying I wont watch it .... but I am definatly terridfied of whats comming

 

 

Ok. But the way you worded things made it sound like you heard these things are happening. I think it's a little weird to fear things we have no evidence of yet. I would be utterly shocked if Min was trans, because then they'd either not have him be Rand's love interest or Rand would need to be bisexual or pansexual. I doubt they will change anyone's orientation other that potentially Moiraine's. But I think Moiraine will be bi rather than gay.

Edited November 11, 2021 by Deadsy

[Guire]

They really need to up their horse game if this show is going to set the bar for shows with horses as lead characters.  Bela has not been centered in any trailers nor has Aldieb nuzzled anyone that I have seen.  Also what the heck happened to my shaggy super pony?

 

[Ralph]

Rafe has said that people who have read the books will already know who the Dragon is

[Guire]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

Rafe has said that people who have read the books will already know who the Dragon is

Watching Josha squirm in interviews pretty much affirms that.  Outside of a few scenes Rand was one of my least favorite main characters.  I just didnt want Egwene's arc to get screwed up or have a non Dragon Rand be some odd ball maniac who is discarded and marginalized when he is revealed to not be the Dragon.  It would feel a bit like the love arc for John and Daenerys in GoT.  It kind of ruined both characters for me. 

[notpropaganda73]

3 hours ago, Wraith235 said:

the DR Stuff is not that big of a leap, also I have not seen Rafe say "Rand is DR" 
I have seen Rafes Quote that there have been female dragons in the past, and even in the trailers there is supporting evidence such as "one of you 5" and "we dont know weather the dragon is a boy or a girl" 

 

In the very same quote about female dragons he says that people who know the books already know who the Dragon is, but they are teasing out the mystery for the show

 

Edit: sorry, see this has already been addressed

Edited November 11, 2021 by notpropaganda73

[notpropaganda73]

7 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Anyone who can't get emotionally involved with a story because it doesn't features characters of their own identity (race/gender/sexuality etc) is emotionally immature and should not be catered to. 

 

Honestly, this should discount the vast majority of people I see relentlessly complaining about "woke" media. It seems to me that any time there is literally *any* effort at telling stories from a different POV than what we have been used to in a big mainstream production, there are hordes of people crying online about "woke" media. 

 

We can criticise poorly made art or hamfisted attempts at inclusion or diversity (for example I saw you mention the scene in Endgame where all the female superheroes lined up and I 100% agree, it was a really poorly executed moment with no buildup or justification in the MCU), but taking the automatic position that "changes like this are bad and it's a middle finger to me personally" seems to me much more emotionally immature than someone who would like to see more stories that have characters they can recognise as themselves in them (which, I think we both agree, is not simply a matter of saying "this character is gay" or "this character is a black woman", the most important thing is the writing and the character themselves without a doubt, but representation definitely helps in my view).  

 

As RJ always used to say RAFO. Can we at least open our minds a little bit to imagine a world where possibly, just maybe, it's crazy I know but stay with me, the TV show *might* execute all of this really well and we might get a really great adaptation, if not exactly what we had all pictured in our heads (which would never happen anyway)? Is it so crazy to give showrunners the benefit of the doubt until we actually see the show? 

[Tim]

8 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Tons of straight guys had no problem getting invested in Simoun, an anime where nearly all the main characters are lesbians. 

I’m struggling to interpret this statement in a way that isn’t really offensive? 
 

Help me out here.

[Wraith235]

6 hours ago, Deadsy said:

 

 

Ok. But the way you worded things made it sound like you heard these things are happening. I think it's a little weird to fear things we have no evidence of yet. I would be utterly shocked if Min was trans, because then they'd either not have him be Rand's love interest or Rand would need to be bisexual or pansexual. I doubt they will change anyone's orientation other that potentially Moiraine's. But I think Moiraine will be bi rather than gay.

ok fair enough on the quote as I had not seen that (need to make sure to follow my own advice and read everything)

as for the Min Trans thing - I wouldn't be shocked, Id be Shocked if they DIDNT do it  (and I have been trying to avoid this but) with "Woke" Culture as it is its too easy, and making Rand Bi or Pan - again with "Woke" media as it is why wouldn't you.... Rafe has already stated that he basically knows better than Jordan - this stuff basically writes itself these days


I know about the RAFO stuff and I get it, however adaptations like this - adding in some of the inflamatory stuff Rafe has been adding or changing is ALWAYS going to draw Ire from the purists. we expect some changes to the material for adaptation purposes - not fundamental changes to the world and the laws of that world 

you dont have to look much further thant Star Wars, He-Man, She-Ra, LoS and all these other reboots and adaptations that fans have basically disavowed because of what it did to the source material to see examples of when the "Writer / Director knows better"

something that just occurred to me last night about gendered channeling issues is the A'dem .... chew on that one for a bit

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wraith235

[Gothic Flame]

If Rafe actually does disagree with Sanderson on the books saying, "

‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it.”

 

Then we're not getting much of the books so much as someone else's interpretation, or perhaps better to say, someone else's vision of thinking to make it "better."

 

I'm not paying for that.

[WalterKohl]

10 hours ago, swollymammoth said:

Tons of straight guys had no problem getting invested in Simoun, an anime where nearly all the main characters are lesbians. 

um wow, a bunch of straight guys like an anime that features a bunch of lesbians... how ground breaking...  I mean really who would have thought that straight guys would like to read and look at a bunch of hot (I am assuming here) lesbians doing stuff.... so obviously they are so woke it hurts... 

 

 

in case it wasn't obvious, please read this in a sarcastic voice...   

[Wraith235]

6 minutes ago, Gothic Flame said:

If Rafe actually does disagree with Sanderson on the books saying, "

‘No, this is why we’re doing it. It’s a choice and I actually think it really works and it’s going to work for us long-term.’ And then we agree to disagree on it.”

 

Then we're not getting much of the books so much as someone else's interpretation, or perhaps better to say, someone else's vision of thinking to make it "better."

 

I'm not paying for that.

EXACTLY MY POINT !!!
Keep in mind - when Sanderson took over - he received BOXES of notes, Full Dossier's on every character in the world regardless of how minor "Just in case" - this is a story from his mouth at a CONDUIT (IIRC) held in Davis County Utah that I attended

I do not Trust him purly based on the things he has said thus far
that said I AM Open to being wrong .... Ive just seen too many examples of being right

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wraith235

[MasterAblar]

3 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

As RJ always used to say RAFO. Can we at least open our minds a little bit to imagine a world where possibly, just maybe, it's crazy I know but stay with me, the TV show *might* execute all of this really well and we might get a really great adaptation, if not exactly what we had all pictured in our heads (which would never happen anyway)? Is it so crazy to give showrunners the benefit of the doubt until we actually see the show? 

 

Benefit of the doubt with regards to whether the show will be good? Sure I have no reason to doubt their ability to produce a quality show.

 

Benefit of the doubt with regards to whether they will be faithfull to the books? Not anymore no. Not after Rafe straight up said that they'll change things if they think RJ would have written it differently if he had written the series today.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, MasterAblar said:

Benefit of the doubt with regards to whether they will be faithfull to the books?

I guess it kinda comes down to what you mean by "faithful". I think the show will keep the same plot arcs for most of the main characters. So you'll see Rand defeat the forces of the shadow at Tarwin's Gap; be named Car'a'carn; Callandor and the fall of the Stone; Dumai's Wells; the Cleansing; Natrin's Barrow; etc. Other characters will hit their comparable story beats.

 

In between those beats, I think we are going to see quite a bit of "new" stuff. Different dialogue, different timing, perhaps differently motivated external characters. These different scenes will be set against backdrops we are familiar with and include important characters from the books. 

 

I think Rafe's goal is to tell a very character-focused story, like Jordan did. But without the ability for us to live in the character's heads the way we can on the page, he and the writers are going to build new scenes so that we can understand the characters' motivations in a way that feels real and organic. 

[king of nowhere]

51 minutes ago, Wraith235 said:

you dont have to look much further thant Star Wars, He-Man, She-Ra, LoS and all these other reboots and adaptations that fans have basically disavowed because of what it did to the source material to see examples of when the "Writer / Director knows better"

i'm not familiar with many of those, but as far as i know all of those were old franchises that had been made and adapted and retold a lot of times. and in this case there's no reason to make a "faithful" adaptation, because there's already one, so they try to reboot/change stuff to try and revive interest in a franchise that's mostly already exhausted. so they have to try something new, some reinterpretation, which may be well or poorly received.

 

wot is in a different position because there isn't an already-exhisting adaptation from which the show has to differentiate itself.

[WalterKohl]

1 hour ago, Wraith235 said:

you dont have to look much further thant Star Wars, He-Man, She-Ra, LoS and all these other reboots and adaptations that fans have basically disavowed

Its funny when people talk about He-Man and She-Ra as coming from some bible of lore... they were created to sell toys, that's it, not some fantasy story told in comic books for ages that then became a cartoon...  Hey I love them, but when you include them in some sort of argument about how people ruined a franchise because they adapted them to the times you kind of lose your argument since they succeeded in the only metric that mattered to them, they sold more toys to new kids... who will complain about the changes made to another iteration in 20 years...   

[Elder_Haman]

7 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

you dont have to look much further thant Star Wars, He-Man, She-Ra, LoS

Star Wars: original came out in 1977. One of the most popular franchises in history with more adaptations and spin-offs you can count. Not a valid comparison.

 

He-Man: a children's cartoon that usually taught a moral lesson. Not a valid comparison.

She=Ra: a children's cartoon that usually taught a moral lesson. Not a valid comparison.

 

Legend of the Seeker: a little known book that essentially plagiarized Jordan adapted by the person behind Hercules and Xena, Warrior Princess. Budget: approximately $1.5 million per episode. Not a valid comparison.

[Wraith235]

Looks like I was misunderstood with my comparisons .... I was using those as examples of properties that fans have abandoned due to what was done to the source material ..... not attacking what was done specifically

as for retelling and retold - it has only been the adaptations/retellings/sequels made in the last 6 years that have caused the issues and ALL for the same basic reason - wokeness

the same type of thing we are being told will happen by Rafe in this series .... degendering the one power, degendering souls, and those are just the things we KNOW are going to happen, ..... include our speculations and you have a recipe for disaster
 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wraith235

[Arthellion]

Y'all are missing the point I think Wraith is making.

 

The point is that these IPs had updates/reboots etc. that large portions of their fanbases disliked the new updates to. Many of these updates that fans disliked were driven not by a desire for telling a good story, but by a desire to virtue signal/promote the creators own personal ideologies.

 

It doesn't matter how popular or how many adaptions have been made, the point remains the same. Fans disavowed those updates/reboots because the decisions and changes undermined the core experience. And  the changes that occurred were not for the purpose of good story telling but for the purpose of the author's ideology.

 

It doesn't even have to be woke/culture war ideology. Rian Johnson for example I don't think was driven so much for identity politics as he was an ideological approach to story telling. That ideology was one that ultimately did not respect the previous lore or world that existed.

 

You have creators coming in to tell "their" story...but this isn't their story. It belongs to the fans and the original author. There is a difference here when you're working with previous work.

 

One really great example of a reboot/rebirth that respects the source material while saying something new is Cobra Kai. Cobra Kai leans heavily into critiquing both "Toxic Masculinity" and "Snowflake Culture" but it does so while respecting the source material that came before. 

[themann1086]

The She-ra reboot was amazing. Even outside of the "Harold they're lesbians" thing, it's just an incredible story about trauma and forgiveness and learning to love yourself and... look I could literally go on about this for a while but I won't, so instead I'll point out that She-Ra and the Princesses of Power was a smashing success with both critics and audiences. If Wheel of Time got even a fraction of that success it'd be excellent.

[WalterKohl]

20 minutes ago, themann1086 said:

The She-ra reboot was amazing. Even outside of the "Harold they're lesbians" thing, it's just an incredible story about trauma and forgiveness and learning to love yourself and... look I could literally go on about this for a while but I won't, so instead I'll point out that She-Ra and the Princesses of Power was a smashing success with both critics and audiences. If Wheel of Time got even a fraction of that success it'd be excellent.

Yeah when people say these reboots are a failure, I think they mean to them personally so it must be a failure to more...  You are correct about the reception to She-Ra, it has been amazingly good overall.  

[swollymammoth]

2 hours ago, Tim said:

I’m struggling to interpret this statement in a way that isn’t really offensive? 
 

Help me out here.

Because it's true? Idk what you want from me here. Nothing I said was targeted. Anyone who can only relate to characters who resemble them is immature and should not be catered to. That includes white people, rich people, straight people, men and any other group you can think of. The connection we're supposed to feel from fiction should transcend all of that stuff and reach to the core of the human experience. That's more inclusive than any sort of tokenistic pandering. 

[SinisterDeath]

32 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

The point is that these IPs had updates/reboots etc. that large portions of their fanbases disliked the new updates to. Many of these updates that fans disliked were driven not by a desire for telling a good story, but by a desire to virtue signal/promote the creators own personal ideologies.

Much of that fanbase are Gen X Incels that virtue signal their conservative ideology and yell to the sky about how women and gay people are being shoved down their throats.

 

32 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

It doesn't matter how popular or how many adaptions have been made, the point remains the same. Fans disavowed those updates/reboots because the decisions and changes undermined the core experience. And  the changes that occurred were not for the purpose of good story telling but for the purpose of the author's ideology.

So... you know what the authors intent was? Perhaps... the Author could believe that these woke changes allow for new stories that haven't been told a billion times.

 

32 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

It doesn't even have to be woke/culture war ideology. Rian Johnson for example I don't think was driven so much for identity politics as he was an ideological approach to story telling. That ideology was one that ultimately did not respect the previous lore or world that existed.

The Star wars fan base sure does love to hate on Laura Dern with her Pink hair. 
How dare the rebels have a female admiral that may or may not be straight! 

Course, I can forgive the fanbase for hating on the director/writers for killing Luke.

 

32 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

You have creators coming in to tell "their" story...but this isn't their story. It belongs to the fans and the original author. There is a difference here when you're working with previous work.

It belongs to the fans? Sure is news to me. 

Fan Fiction is Illegal. Jordan's Estate issues C&D's over Fan Fiction. 

The Story belongs to the Estates & the Companies that own the rights to it.

 

Saying it belongs to "us" is an incredibly entitled opinion. Not unlike the entitled conservatives mad because Land O'Lakes butter removed the Native Woman on their product out of their own volition, and people were upset because they could no longer jerk it to her. (I'm not even joking about that...)

 

32 minutes ago, Arthellion said:

One really great example of a reboot/rebirth that respects the source material while saying something new is Cobra Kai. Cobra Kai leans heavily into critiquing both "Toxic Masculinity" and "Snowflake Culture" but it does so while respecting the source material that came before. 

"South Park did it first!" - E.g. people have used "PC" Culture as a method to bully people. To paraphrase Fallout 4, " If my time in school taught me one thing: it's that Bullying, Bullying never changes.".

Cobra Kai, as a show is incredibly full of woke stuff. I've seen innumerable complaints from the anti-woke crowd about it being too woke, and they're ruining Johnny. Yet, like the original it focuses on Bullying. We have characters that us toxic masculinity to bully. You have people using pc terminology to bully. Johnny 1980s Toxic Masculinity personified becoming more Woke. Daniel finally acknowledges his own bullying throughout the years.

[Arthellion]

@SinisterDeath This is not debating in good faith. You're engaging in ad hominem attacks and attacking the proponents of such views rather than the view itself. 

 

I could go line by line rebutting you, but until you show you're willing to debate in good faith..there is no point. At every point on this board that I've seen you engage with someone, it has been with snide undertones and little desire to actually understand the opposing viewpoint.

 

I respect that you have different views on these matters even if I disagree, but I don't call those who hold your opinion names or insinuate that only those with weaker moral character hold such views and so they can be dismissed.

 

So yeah. agree to disagree but just know that I won't be responding to your replies unless it's in your capacity as a moderator. No disrespect meant. 

[Wraith235]

15 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Much of that fanbase are Gen X Incels that virtue signal their conservative ideology and yell to the sky about how women and gay people are being shoved down their throats.

 

So... you know what the authors intent was? Perhaps... the Author believes these woke changes allow for new stories that haven't been told a billion times.

 

The Star wars fan base sure does love to hate on Laura Dern with her Pink hair. 
How dare the rebels have a female admiral that may or may not be straight! 

Course, I can forgive the fanbase for hating on the director/writers for killing Luke.

 

It belongs to the fans? Sure is news to me. 

Fan Fiction is Illegal. Jordan's Estate issues C&D's over Fan Fiction. 

The Story belongs to the Estates & the Companies that own the rights to it.

 

Saying it belongs to "us" is an incredibly entitled opinion. Not unlike the entitled conservatives mad because Land O'Lakes butter removed the Native Woman on their product out of their own volition, and people were upset because they could no longer jerk it to her. (I'm not even joking about that...)

 

"South Park did it first!" - E.g. people have used "PC" Culture as a method to bully people. To paraphrase Fallout 4, " If my time in school taught me one thing: it's that Bullying, Bullying never changes.".

Cobra Kai, as a show is incredibly full of woke stuff. I've seen innumerable complaints from the anti-woke crowd about it being too woke, and they're ruining Johnny. Yet, like the original it focuses on Bullying. We have characters that us toxic masculinity to bully. You have people using pc terminology to bully. Johnny 1980s Toxic Masculinity personified becoming more Woke. Daniel finally acknowledges his own bullying throughout the years.

SOOOO Much to unpack here 

1 - so thats what your calling much of the WoT Fans ? cause its the same time frame
2 - thats exactly what Rafe is doing to Jordan who is the TRUE Author - not the adaptor
3 - Im not talking about Laura Dern - Im talking about everything Johnson, Abrams, and Kennedy have done to the IP 
4 - sure that one may have been overreaching a bit but its we the fans who make sure these individuals are still employed

I wont even go into the bias being stated here 

Edited November 11, 2021 by Wraith235

[themann1086]

2 minutes ago, WalterKohl said:

Yeah when people say these reboots are a failure, I think they mean to them personally so it must be a failure to more...  You are correct about the reception to She-Ra, it has been amazingly good overall.  

Right, just to be clear: if you personally did not like something, for whatever reason, that is completely fair and valid. I'm sorry that you didn't like something that I did, just like I try to feel happy that others like something I didn't.

 

But I am absolutely pleading for folks to stop speaking for others, or think that their opinion is The One True Fan Viewpoint. It absolutely is not. For example! I've headcanoned Egwene as bi since I read the series 20 years ago, so guess what: I hope they do make her bi! If it were done well, I'd be very happy with that decision! But I do get that this will clash with others' headcanons and so some disappointment would be understandable. But that doesn't make you a better fan than me, nor me a better fan than you.