What to keep, what to drop?

[Barmacral]

Since every TV show has to adhere to a budget some things are always dropped when adapting a book to any size of screen. Which characters and scenes do you think could be dropped in the show, substituted by another character, or is absolutely essential to keep?

[johnnysd]

Not sure they need to cut that much. Despite being hugely long books, I think there is less actual plot in a book from ASOAIF as an example. I think they could do much of the core story if not all of it in 8 seasons. A lot of the stuff in later seasons like Faile's imprisonment, Elayne retaking the throne can be greatly reduced and consolidated. Morgase's imprisonment as well.

 

I think the best thing they can do is to make Mazrim Taim be Demandred as originally intended. Yes I know Jordan denied this but I still don't believe him, he just made it too obvious.

 

I really dont think you can delete any of the main set of characters. Polygamy wont play well so that will likely be morphed into a more girl-centric love triangle +1, encouraging female viewers to "ship" either Elayne, Avi or Min and form Camp Avi, Camp Elayne and Camp Min, and maybe early Camp Egwene. They could actually skip Avi and Min and change it to just Egwene versus Elayne but I dont think they will do that.

 

Also, I actually do think that the WOT is actually women driven. Egwene and Nynaeve are as important as Matt and Perrin in many ways. 

 

It will also be interesting to see how "adult" it is. Jordan's writings were for the most part PG-13 but a lot of the content is at least as hard as Game of Thrones, especially if you want to portray the Forsaken correctly. I expect it to be pretty explicit actually.

[Sajius]

I agree that having to many possible romances wouldn't work on a T.V. show. I instead think that instead of Egwene/Elayne its Egwene/Min, with egwene dropping out a little later. 

[Maedelin]

If the TV series expands the Book 5 traveling circus, Book 9 - 11's Shaido, 8 - 11's Elayne and Andor, or the really weird Tallanvor/Morgase story-line (So much of it has always sounded...weird to my ears) I might just plunge my remote into my TV.  Those stories were long enough.

 

I would like to see TAR done in the show in a really unique way.  For some reason, TAR is in the style of claymation in my head whenever I read it.  I guess it's how I imagined the malleability of that realm.

 

I never thought that the books were women centered as were claimed in a rough article I posted in this forum; if they got as much time as Mat and Perrin as mentioned above I don't think that makes it women centered.  Perhaps just equal, you know?

 

Anyway, I wonder how they'll show embracing/seizing the Source and the TP.  I always imagined the Source making the pupils of the channeler go white-gold, and the TP to go red-black.  Did anyone else have little divergences while reading like I did?

 

I am interested in the idea of cutting down the number of women who were in love with Rand; if we cut the love from Elayne and/or Aviendha, do you think they'd have both of them stay?  Would...could you think they'd make either his half-sister or some junk?

[Ryrin]

The three women one man romance might bring in more adult viewers.  

 

How do you think the TV series will convey the different natures/cultures in the WoT?

[dexterryu]

There's been a lot of talk on this in the "Other Meda" board before the show became official, but there is a significant amount of trimming just from the show being a visual medium. I'd say that you're probably about 1.5 books per season if it just focused on the main characters and their through lines. Possibly 2 books if they do 13 Episode seasons.

[Maedelin]

Oh Light.  Will they keep the Aes Sedai ageless looking face?  If they keep it, how would they show it?  I do not think I can even explain how I see it in my head. xD

 

What does everyone else thing?

[SinisterDeath]

8 minutes ago, Maedelin said:

Oh Light.  Will they keep the Aes Sedai ageless looking face?  If they keep it, how would they show it?  I do not think I can even explain how I see it in my head. xD

 

What does everyone else thing?

I'm sure someone on the makeup/special effects department can figure something out.

If this were on MTV, we wouldn't have to worry about it. Half the MTV stars look plastic anyways.

[Sajius]

On 10/4/2018 at 11:33 PM, Ryrin said:

How do you think the TV series will convey the different natures/cultures in the WoT?

On interpreting the cultures I do not think that it will be to hard. A lot of the nations borrow heavily from one real world culture or another. If the screenwriters and directors can get it right all the cultures will be different but feel somewhat familiar to our world. Also if they can hire actors who are similar to the ethnicity from the books, it would make the show that much better. 

[Tyzack]

If y'all think that polygamy won't play well, you haven't been following Game of Thrones, which is, as one comedian put it, a decade long ploy to get Americans to be okay with incest. ;)

 

I think the biggest challenge will be the depictions of the One Power, without it looking stupid/sappy. 

[SinisterDeath]

On 10/6/2018 at 5:25 PM, Sajius said:

On interpreting the cultures I do not think that it will be to hard. A lot of the nations borrow heavily from one real world culture or another. If the screenwriters and directors can get it right all the cultures will be different but feel somewhat familiar to our world. Also if they can hire actors who are similar to the ethnicity from the books, it would make the show that much better. 

Well, the fun part is going to be, that many of the Cultures Jordan has, he swapped the expected ethnicity around.
Aiel = Red headed Irish, but culturally, are more desert nomad. 

Shienar = Japanese Vikings?

[Maedelin]

18 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Well, the fun part is going to be, that many of the Cultures Jordan has, he swapped the expected ethnicity around.
Aiel = Red headed Irish, but culturally, are more desert nomad. 

Shienar = Japanese Vikings?

Didn't the big white book of exposition explain ethnicities of people? I recall somewhere in there they mention the Seanchan a mixture of Texas and Imperial China? "Y'all bow to the Empress,  may she live forever, y'hear?" Seems to be a quote in the back of my mind.

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, Maedelin said:

Didn't the big white book of exposition explain ethnicities of people? I recall somewhere in there they mention the Seanchan a mixture of Texas and Imperial China? "Y'all bow to the Empress,  may she live forever, y'hear?" Seems to be a quote in the back of my mind.

Rofl, probably. It's been ages since I flipped through that book.

[Agitel]

I will be thinking of specifics more, but I'm okay with significant condensing, so long as the tone and character development is on point. I can imagine season two ending in the Stone of Tear, for example.

 

I was fine with what was originally proposed for the Dornish plot in A Game of Thrones, for example, but felt that what we got was just terrible television and didn't feel remotely correct.

Edited October 13, 2018 by Agitel

[dexterryu]

On 10/13/2018 at 1:16 PM, Agitel said:

I will be thinking of specifics more, but I'm okay with significant condensing, so long as the tone and character development is on point. I can imagine season two ending in the Stone of Tear, for example.

 

I was fine with what was originally proposed for the Dornish plot in A Game of Thrones, for example, but felt that what we got was just terrible television and didn't feel remotely correct.

 

Some specifics... let's just talk Eye of the World for now but chapters like the dinner at the Grinwell's while great character building in a book are bloat in a show. A lot of the parts where Rand/Mat are on their own could be cut/condensed to a montage to bring them to Four Kings. 

 

On a series level... I'd be fine without the Coramoor plotline. The Rebel AS politics got very tedious and probably could be simplified once they pick Egwene and just back her up. That would get to the tower siege sooner. The Perrin/Bornhold story was always frustrating. Faile's time while captured wasn't exactly exciting either.

 

Looking at the books... 1 through 5 I think translate fairly well. 6-14 cover much less time and is where most of the TV editing would be needed. Those you'd want to focus on the high points. So in my breakdown I'd do Seasons 1-4 would cover the first 5 books and mostly following the books because the main characters are all in a few groups. After that... when everyone is split and basically has their own stories is when you could condense it.

 

S5 would be LOC/CoS.

 

S6 would include the following main events:

Rand cleansing Saidin

Matt/Tuon up to the point where she rejoins the Seanchan.

Tower Seige up through the Egwene being captured.

Perrin's story up through the Faile rescue.

Elayne's Caemlyn battles.

 

S7:

Rand to VoG

Matt to Moiriane rescue

Perrin\Galad unifying white cloaks

Egwene through Mesaana

 

S8:

The last battle.

[Werthead]

On 05/10/2018 at 9:28 PM, Maedelin said:

Oh Light.  Will they keep the Aes Sedai ageless looking face?  If they keep it, how would they show it?  I do not think I can even explain how I see it in my head. xD

 

What does everyone else thing?

 

There's a technology called Digital Noise Reduction (DNR). When used properly, it removes grain and pops from old film stock to make for a better image when it is scanned in HD or 4K. It's very useful for getting old movies and TV shows upgraded to modern high-def. When used badly, it goes haywire and starts "smoothing" everything on screen, making it weird and soft-looking. On people, it can remove a lot of the detailed features, especially of the skin, and make people look slightly off-putting and fake. Fox used it particularly badly on their recent HD remastering of Buffy the Vampire Slayer (especially in Season 1) and it has that effect.

 

If you fiddled around with it and reduced its effect to just a character's face, it could achieve the same fate as the Aes Sedai ageless look. 

 

 

Quote

 

I think the best thing they can do is to make Mazrim Taim be Demandred as originally intended. Yes I know Jordan denied this but I still don't believe him, he just made it too obvious.

 

 

 

 

We know now from RJ's notes that yes, Taim was Demandred and, yes, it was changed because the fans figured it out. So that could be kept the same, and Shara kept firmly off-screen altogether.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Werthead

[johnnysd]

6 hours ago, Werthead said:

 

 

 

 

We know now from RJ's notes that yes, Taim was Demandred and, yes, it was changed because the fans figured it out. So that could be kept the same, and Shara kept firmly off-screen altogether.

 

 

Really? I had not read that. To be honest, I think the switch really weakened the entire series. Not enough to knock of its pedestal as the best book series ever, but that switch was just nonsensical.

 

It's also something the series should switch back

Edited October 24, 2018 by johnnysd

[Pandemonium]

i think galad could be cut out of the series.  he barely played a role in anything significant.  they might want to get a good looking face, but i felt his duel with demandred kind of ruined the ending a bit.  there was no need for 3 sword fights.  also the children of the light didnt play a huge role in the overall story and probably wouldnt be missed if cut.

[Maedelin]

15 hours ago, Pandemonium said:

i think galad could be cut out of the series.  he barely played a role in anything significant.  they might want to get a good looking face, but i felt his duel with demandred kind of ruined the ending a bit.  there was no need for 3 sword fights.  also the children of the light didnt play a huge role in the overall story and probably wouldnt be missed if cut.

There was a great deal of tedium in the stories about Whitecloaks, Amador, and Morgase.  I wonder if they can tell a cohesive story without the Whitecloaks as they're part of Perrin's journey to becoming a Wolfbrother.

[Sajius]

On 10/25/2018 at 12:45 PM, Pandemonium said:

i think galad could be cut out of the series.  he barely played a role in anything significant.  they might want to get a good looking face, but i felt his duel with demandred kind of ruined the ending a bit.  there was no need for 3 sword fights.  also the children of the light didnt play a huge role in the overall story and probably wouldnt be missed if cut.

You are right, especially about the third sword-fight Gawyn is trying to play his part, thats fine. Of course then we need Lan to beat him for our triumphant story. But Galad... he doesn't do anything. In fact he doesn't even die, a lot of Galad could be cut or even his character cut entirely. 

[What's a Seawolf?]

Going to copy something I wrote a couple years ago regarding the transition to a TV series:

 

Toughest part about trying to discuss the potential TV series is balancing what I personally want to see (a very close adaption with corresponding huge budgets to accommodate everything) vs what actually has a chance to happen.

 

For example, some combination of Nyn, Egwene, Min, Siuan etc can be cut or combined.

 

But to me, that would lose so much of the WoT feel.

 

First and foremost I want the characters and their relationships to be carried across to the TV screen.  It's what made WoT so engaging and long lasting.  We knew how the characters thought, what made them tick, and how they related to each other.

 

I'd keep all the major characters (let's call them the EotW crew plus Siuan and a few others.)  Maybe diminished roles, but have them.

 

The big decision (and this is all just a random splattering of thoughts right now) is what to do with the Seanchan and Aiel.  Seanchan first.  For budgetary and story conciseness, do you want to have just one big bad (all manner of DO forces) or do you want to mix in the Seanchan?

 

The Aiel have similar considerations.  Huge new culture, requiring a ton of additional actors.  Is it worth keeping them in?

 

As readers, the obvious answer is YES.  But I can see how each would be left on the cutting room floor due to budget or story condensing.

 

Personally, I hope the approach is not to cut characters and peoples but storylines.

 

Stick to four main storylines, each spreading out as seasons continue.  Rand, Mat, Perrin and Aes Sedai.

 

What the the BIG events? (i.e season finale's)

 

Battle in the Blight/Eye of the World visit (probably need to bulk up.  I can also see this being completely changed to a new, more 'massive' TVish ending.)

Battle at Falme

Battle of Emond's Field

Battle of Caemelyn (FoH)

Dumai's Wells

Cleansing

Rand's TGS realization and nearly destroying the Seanchan/WT battle

 

Some new storyline's will be undoubetdly worked in, but take those and build all storyline's towards them.  (Yes I stopped at TGS, but I figure after that it's just one season that's basically the Last Battle.)

 

Season 1:  EotW

-Major priority: Establishing the characters, relationships and world (Dream sequences are huge, as are developing compelling villians.  Ishy yes, but if those two forsaken are going to be the big battle at the end, they need development or forshadowing as well.)

 

Season 2: TGH, with maybe some TDR thrown in

-Major priority: Further character growth, splitting of the team, Rand coming to abilities.  World building.

 

I'm not going to go season by season because I haven't put much thought into this, but the main point is that I hope the writers etc. build off of and towards main events instead of just cutting characters.  For example, the cleansing being a big event means you have to focus on the Madness of male Aes Sedai, which means some form of Asha'man and the effects the madness has.

 

Bowl of Winds storyline and most supergirl adventures?  Cut the former, and alter the latter to fit whatever major events you chose and the new storylines to build towards them.

 

As much as I hate to say it, it would not be a bad idea to leave Thom actually dead after the confrontation in tEotW.  Moraine as well after FoH.  Snakes and Foxes are AWESOME, and I'd leave them in, but maybe think of another reason for Mat to go back, or have it just be Moraine parting some knowledge in Finnland before dying.  (She doesn't do much in the Last Battle anyway.)

 

Thinking through the big events, Fain is not very relevant.  He can easily be killed off early or not be in at all, and anything major he does be given to someone else.

 

One of the reasons to possibly cut the Seanchan is to give more development time to the Forsaken, who in theory are going to be the main villains.  (Can you imagine if the show creators can successfully translate the 'Where in the world is Demandred' we all went through to numerous forsaken over the course of the series?  Would make for great intrigue amongst viewers I believe.)

 

I'm going to stop now, since I could probably go on for about 10 pages.  I don't even know if any of that made any sense.  Forgive the misspelling of names, been a long time since I've reread the series.

 

I guess the main point is don't cut characters just because there are too many, work the important ones into the storylines, even if it means changing a bunch.  Just try to keep the personalities in tact.

[johnnysd]

3 hours ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Going to copy something I wrote a couple years ago regarding the transition to a TV series:

 

Toughest part about trying to discuss the potential TV series is balancing what I personally want to see (a very close adaption with corresponding huge budgets to accommodate everything) vs what actually has a chance to happen.

 

For example, some combination of Nyn, Egwene, Min, Siuan etc can be cut or combined.

 

But to me, that would lose so much of the WoT feel.

 

First and foremost I want the characters and their relationships to be carried across to the TV screen.  It's what made WoT so engaging and long lasting.  We knew how the characters thought, what made them tick, and how they related to each other.

 

I'd keep all the major characters (let's call them the EotW crew plus Siuan and a few others.)  Maybe diminished roles, but have them.

 

The big decision (and this is all just a random splattering of thoughts right now) is what to do with the Seanchan and Aiel.  Seanchan first.  For budgetary and story conciseness, do you want to have just one big bad (all manner of DO forces) or do you want to mix in the Seanchan?

 

The Aiel have similar considerations.  Huge new culture, requiring a ton of additional actors.  Is it worth keeping them in?

 

As readers, the obvious answer is YES.  But I can see how each would be left on the cutting room floor due to budget or story condensing.

 

Personally, I hope the approach is not to cut characters and peoples but storylines.

 

Stick to four main storylines, each spreading out as seasons continue.  Rand, Mat, Perrin and Aes Sedai.

 

What the the BIG events? (i.e season finale's)

 

Battle in the Blight/Eye of the World visit (probably need to bulk up.  I can also see this being completely changed to a new, more 'massive' TVish ending.)

Battle at Falme

Battle of Emond's Field

Battle of Caemelyn (FoH)

Dumai's Wells

Cleansing

Rand's TGS realization and nearly destroying the Seanchan/WT battle

 

Some new storyline's will be undoubetdly worked in, but take those and build all storyline's towards them.  (Yes I stopped at TGS, but I figure after that it's just one season that's basically the Last Battle.)

 

Season 1:  EotW

-Major priority: Establishing the characters, relationships and world (Dream sequences are huge, as are developing compelling villians.  Ishy yes, but if those two forsaken are going to be the big battle at the end, they need development or forshadowing as well.)

 

Season 2: TGH, with maybe some TDR thrown in

-Major priority: Further character growth, splitting of the team, Rand coming to abilities.  World building.

 

I'm not going to go season by season because I haven't put much thought into this, but the main point is that I hope the writers etc. build off of and towards main events instead of just cutting characters.  For example, the cleansing being a big event means you have to focus on the Madness of male Aes Sedai, which means some form of Asha'man and the effects the madness has.

 

Bowl of Winds storyline and most supergirl adventures?  Cut the former, and alter the latter to fit whatever major events you chose and the new storylines to build towards them.

 

As much as I hate to say it, it would not be a bad idea to leave Thom actually dead after the confrontation in tEotW.  Moraine as well after FoH.  Snakes and Foxes are AWESOME, and I'd leave them in, but maybe think of another reason for Mat to go back, or have it just be Moraine parting some knowledge in Finnland before dying.  (She doesn't do much in the Last Battle anyway.)

 

Thinking through the big events, Fain is not very relevant.  He can easily be killed off early or not be in at all, and anything major he does be given to someone else.

 

One of the reasons to possibly cut the Seanchan is to give more development time to the Forsaken, who in theory are going to be the main villains.  (Can you imagine if the show creators can successfully translate the 'Where in the world is Demandred' we all went through to numerous forsaken over the course of the series?  Would make for great intrigue amongst viewers I believe.)

 

I'm going to stop now, since I could probably go on for about 10 pages.  I don't even know if any of that made any sense.  Forgive the misspelling of names, been a long time since I've reread the series.

 

I guess the main point is don't cut characters just because there are too many, work the important ones into the storylines, even if it means changing a bunch.  Just try to keep the personalities in tact.

 

Really not agreeing with much of this to be honest. In my view, WOT is not about battles. There certainly are some key battles, but the focus is really on the progression and change of the characters. The Aiel are in many ways the core of the books, really impossible to take them out. I think the core main players will stay but I think the most vulnerable actually might actually be Elayne and Morgase.  And I suspect large chunks of Perrins and Faile's story gets seriously truncated.  I would expect more of the Black Ajah, Cadsuane earlier, and much less political hopping about. Taim will be Demandred. I think Lanfears and Moiranes story gets changed a lot. And the Forsaken get more screen time.

[What's a Seawolf?]

15 hours ago, johnnysd said:

 

Really not agreeing with much of this to be honest. In my view, WOT is not about battles. There certainly are some key battles, but the focus is really on the progression and change of the characters. The Aiel are in many ways the core of the books, really impossible to take them out. I think the core main players will stay but I think the most vulnerable actually might actually be Elayne and Morgase.  And I suspect large chunks of Perrins and Faile's story gets seriously truncated.  I would expect more of the Black Ajah, Cadsuane earlier, and much less political hopping about. Taim will be Demandred. I think Lanfears and Moiranes story gets changed a lot. And the Forsaken get more screen time.

 

That's almost exactly what I said.  Focus on the characters and their interactions.

 

The battles I mentioned are key events to work storylines towards.  For TV, right or wrong, the audience is going to expect something spectacular at the end of a season, and that's where the big battles come in.

[Occams whiskey bottle]

On 10/3/2018 at 10:02 PM, Sajius said:

I agree that having to many possible romances wouldn't work on a T.V. show. I instead think that instead of Egwene/Elayne its Egwene/Min, with egwene dropping out a little later. 

 

They can keep pretty much the entire relationships intact with minimal changes. Egwene and Rand become more like a brother/sister relationship, while Elayne and Aviendha could be close friendships. The pregnancies could either be written out or explained as one night stands. Perhaps Rand takes on more of Mats personality and is more of a promiscuous ladies man. 

[dexterryu]

On 11/4/2018 at 7:53 AM, Occams whiskey bottle said:

 

They can keep pretty much the entire relationships intact with minimal changes. Egwene and Rand become more like a brother/sister relationship, while Elayne and Aviendha could be close friendships. The pregnancies could either be written out or explained as one night stands. Perhaps Rand takes on more of Mats personality and is more of a promiscuous ladies man. 

 

They could still keep them as 3 lovers, just not 3 ongoing simultaneous lovers. Relationships end amicably and they remain friends/allies.