"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

 

 

And, how did the hackers get their phones? They either didn't take enough care of those phones, or they did use the internet to send them. Both are a failure on their part. A horrible crime was done to them, yes, but you shouldn't do that. It's just a bad idea. Doesn't excuse the crime, but it was a bad idea. Though Watson didn't have any photos leaked. 4Chan is making empty threats. The entire threat was a hoax.

 

Jak,

The best way I can compare it, is to a burglary. You have something in your home and you lock the doors and go out. When you come home, you discover your house has been broken into and things have been stolen.

Photography is different today. The photos were stored privately. Someone hacked (burglarized) their private photo storage and then made the photos public.

Neither is a failure on the part of the crime victim.

Whether you agree or not about using private photos in an adult sexual relationship is not the point.

 

You missed the point. I am NOT defending any hackers. I was complimenting Emma Watson. Why was that such a big deal for you? Why does that make you be uncivil to me? I am not trying to 'blame the victim' I am advising caution. Don't read into everything as an attack. I agree with almost everything you said. In the beginning, I just stated that I didn't understand why one should have ANY nude photos public OR private. I said that it's a bad idea to store things of a sensitive nature online. Then you jumped to conclusions and said this: 

 

 

'Yes, you are not an adult and apparently don't comprehend that private nude photos can be between consenting adults and not for public exploitation. It's a very simple concept actually.What is "asking for trouble" are people who hack other's accounts and private information.. I believe it is illegal as well.... and lacking in virtue.I don't view a crime victim as "lacking good judgement" or "asking for trouble."I really think someone needs to teach you respect for women. '

 

 

 

WTF????? 

 

THAT was an attack. Act your age. Seriously. Was that necessary? No. It wasn't. I expressed an opinion that something is a bad idea.

 

I know the hackers are disgusting pieces of shit. 

 

So why am I the bad guy? Explain Ryrin. Please.

 

Jak. You just crossed the line in a big way. I was hoping not to have to go into this so much.

 

Firstly, the quotation you just made of Ryrin's came after you made. A very sarcastic and argumentative post to her- so it was not entirely unprovoked as you seem to suggest here. Since it seemed more or less 6 of one and half a dozen of another, I decided to let it slide with a friendly reminder to you both that I'm here as a moderator.

 

Your last post took that option away.

 

Firstly, you will not use the kind of language you used above on any boards moderated by me. We have a DM wide rule concerning language and swearing.

 

Secondly, you will stop referring to your age or the age of anyone else in this thread. For a start it is completely off topic and has nothing to do with the debate in question, but it is also being used by you to provoke a reaction.

 

I don't know how old you are, but it seems you have some sort of chip on your shoulder to prove that you are just as clever and sophisticated as the adults here- well that has nothing to do with anything and will stop. No one brought age- either yours or anyone else's- into this except you yourself. As noted above Ryrin's reference to your age was in reply to your own post, which I am going to quote below:

 

 

Well, for me, if someone has private nude photos, it doesn't reflect on their virtuosity. :)

They are private and shoyld stay the way they were intend.

 

 

Really, that's just asking for trouble. So I guess it would also reflect on her good judgement. But what would the purpose be of 'private nude photos.' For 'sexting' and sending to friends?   Is it that how being an adult works? Do most people do that? Do most people have 'private nude photos'? Sorry, I'm not an adult, so I wouldn't know...  It just doesn't seem very virtuous to me... Maybe if you were married to the person you were sending it too.... but then they would be able to see you in person..... I dunno, seems dumb to me. But then again, I'm not in the elite adult class. My brain obviously isn't developed enough to comprehend the ways of adults. As I am repeatably told, 'Do not meddle in the affairs of adults, for they are subtle and quick to anger.'  Maybe a simpleton like me can't comprehend why one should have ANY nude photos, public OR private.

As I said, argumentative and sarcastic and falsely self deprecating.

 

I sympathise with your initial post about Ms Watsons virtue. I'm sure you meant nothing bad from it. At the same time I'm not sure if you comprehend that to a woman, going off topic about something so sensitive and talking about whether or not the photos are real can come across quite coarse. The photos shouldn't be our there, real or not. I'm sure that's something we can all agree on.

 

Since then, however, Ryrin has merely continued to express her opinion. Her last two posts had nothing questionable in them, and you just went way off the deep end with your last post. I think it is worth noting here that you are a visitor to our boards, as well as a younger member, whereas Ryrin is the head of our Green Ajah. In my opinion we should speak politely to those older than us. But by White Tower policy, we are required to be polite and civil towards everyone else here at the WT.

 

Please respect this code of conduct and stop expressing yourself the way you have above. Anyone who can't do that is not welcome to continue debating on the White Tower boards.

 

F

[Ithillian Turambar]

Hi Jack,

 

I think you're going to get in trouble if you keep getting so cross - so I'll explain. I understand that because of your moral views you believe that you complimented Emma Watson. The thing is - if she had decided to have naked photos of her self stored in a supposedly secure online facility - that would not have made her a less decent person. Not to me and not to many people - because what a consenting adult does with their own person is no-one else's business.

 

As to why your post here hasn't got the response you feel it deserves ... It's an implied ommision. You say 'I believe this person is a better person for not doing this' and the implied ommision is that everyone else who does this are not good people, or that you would somehow attach some portion of blame to them if they had done this.

 

You didn't say this - but it could be said to be implied.

 

It's a sensitive subject as for a long time there have been some people who think women deserve the crimes that happen to them. As though their action led to those crimes and so the perpetrator is less at fault.

 

So - you didn't actually say that you thought this, but what you did say implied that had she had naked pictures of herself online, she would have been a less virtuous person and it would have been partly her own fault that someone illegally broke into her secure online facility to steal and publish them.

 

That may not have been your intention, but internet forums are sometime difficult to get your actual point across and words are tricky things.

 

I hope this makes sense.

[Elgee]

Hi Jack,

 

I think you're going to get in trouble if you keep getting so cross - so I'll explain. I understand that because of your moral views you believe that you complimented Emma Watson. The thing is - if she had decided to have naked photos of her self stored in a supposedly secure online facility - that would not have made her a less decent person. Not to me and not to many people - because what a consenting adult does with their own person is no-one else's business.

 

As to why your post here hasn't got the response you feel it deserves ... It's an implied ommision. You say 'I believe this person is a better person for not doing this' and the implied ommision is that everyone else who does this are not good people, or that you would somehow attach some portion of blame to them if they had done this.

 

You didn't say this - but it could be said to be implied.

 

It's a sensitive subject as for a long time there have been some people who think women deserve the crimes that happen to them. As though their action led to those crimes and so the perpetrator is less at fault.

 

So - you didn't actually say that you thought this, but what you did say implied that had she had naked pictures of herself online, she would have been a less virtuous person and it would have been partly her own fault that someone illegally broke into her secure online facility to steal and publish them.

 

That may not have been your intention, but internet forums are sometime difficult to get your actual point across and words are tricky things.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

 

I agree with this 100%.

[Elgee]

Basically, the following message is applicable to all gender- or moral-based crimes:

 

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Let's be 100% honest with that one-

 

Things that cause crime:

 

People.

 

It's as simple as that really.

 

 

So here's one I'd like to get everyone's input on, but perhaps especially the ladies.

 

I'm taking a girl out to dinner and it's time to pay.

 

If I try to pay it myself, she may think I'm sexist. After all, feminism is about equality, right? A woman's money is just as good as mine and they are just as capable of spending it and don't need financial aid in any way from me.

 

If I don't offer to pay, she may think I'm being rude. Many women still expect "gentlemanly" treatment from men these days.

 

Add into the mix that I feel like I want to pay, because I was raised in times when that was more expected than perhaps it is today, just like holding a door for a woman or offering her your coat (both other good examples).

 

Basically I guess I have two questions. On a date, who pays? Should the man even offer? And in general, do feminists still accept "gentlemanly" treatment from men even tho usually by inference such treatment suggests that she is less capable than a man of looking after herself (if I offer her my coat, it means she is more susceptible to cold than I, etc...)

[Ryrin]

Ok, I have two sons, 17 and 24. I've taught them to always pay on a date. Old fashioned? Yes.

 

If people are going out as friends, it would be fair for both to pay their own way. I have a some female friends I do stuff with. Sometimes we pay our own, sometimes we pick up the check for each other and alternate..... that could work too.

[Jak 0' the Shadows]

Hi Jack,

 

I think you're going to get in trouble if you keep getting so cross - so I'll explain. I understand that because of your moral views you believe that you complimented Emma Watson. The thing is - if she had decided to have naked photos of her self stored in a supposedly secure online facility - that would not have made her a less decent person. Not to me and not to many people - because what a consenting adult does with their own person is no-one else's business.

 

As to why your post here hasn't got the response you feel it deserves ... It's an implied ommision. You say 'I believe this person is a better person for not doing this' and the implied ommision is that everyone else who does this are not good people, or that you would somehow attach some portion of blame to them if they had done this.

 

You didn't say this - but it could be said to be implied.

 

It's a sensitive subject as for a long time there have been some people who think women deserve the crimes that happen to them. As though their action led to those crimes and so the perpetrator is less at fault.

 

So - you didn't actually say that you thought this, but what you did say implied that had she had naked pictures of herself online, she would have been a less virtuous person and it would have been partly her own fault that someone illegally broke into her secure online facility to steal and publish them.

 

That may not have been your intention, but internet forums are sometime difficult to get your actual point across and words are tricky things.

 

I hope this makes sense.

 

Alright, that makes sense. I got it. You're right Ithi. I see that my comments could have been taken that way. Sorry people. My bad. 

 

Sorry everyone!   No excuses, I was way out of line. 

 

Sorry Fnnorll, I must'v been making your life as a mod real hard. 

[Ryrin]

Jak and I are good. We've worked things out. :)

[michellem]

It's fine Jak, that's why topics like these are important to talk about, to clear up misunderstandings and talk it out! :)

 

 

Fnorrll, it's a pickle, and it all depends on the girl, really. I think everyone likes to be spoilt, and that includes when going on dates. But yeah, there is no right or wrong to that question unfortunatley!

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Not particularly, Jak. You'd be surprised how much worse things can get than this minor flare up. Thanks for being a good sport about it.

 

Ithi, thanks for the assist. Well explained.

[Turin Turambar]

Ithi is very wise.

 

Fnorrll, about paying the bill on a dinner date, I would say go ahead and pay. You asked her out right? So as the invited party I would say she should not be expected to pay. If she questions. Just say she can pay next time. But then you must let her.

[BFG]

I think that sports which focus on fine body control like ski jumping, archery, gymnastics, ice skating and a few others are going to be where mixing the competition might be possible, although gymnastics is a bit particular since men and women focus on different aspects. On the other hand sports where the athletes compete directly against one another, whether contact like basketball and soccer, or non contact like tennis and volleyball, are going to be very difficult to mix at the highest level. Sports that focus on basic physical attributes such as speed, strength, and endurance, like track and field events and cross country skiing are also unlikely to be mixed.

 

Frankly there's just a lot of sports out there. It's really pretty simple though: those sports which do not focus on physical attributes which favor men, are the ones most likely to be mixed.

Not necessarily :)

 

In 1992 a race called the Dragons Back race was run, it's a cross country event in Wales over 5 days, 300km, largely trackless... It's only been run twice, once in 1992 and again in 2012. In 92 half the teams that ran it (almost everybody had to enter in pairs for safety) dropped out. It was won by a male/female pair whose time was about an hour shorter than the next pair and about 12 hours faster than the first set of paratroopers to finish. Helen ran it again in 2012 and came 4th, despite not being able to train as obsessively as the first time.

 

The first ladies pair came 9th (about 2 hours slower than the paratroopers), but I'm unsure how many ladies pairs entered.

 

People who know more than me, think there's an argument that for ultra high endurance events that men and woman could compete equally.

[Ithillian Turambar]

Thank F and Elgee ttbh I didn't realise F had posted till after I posted.

 

With regards to the date - I think if you're the one doing the inviting, planning the location and so on, then it's your event so pay. If I invited someone round to mine for dinner I wouldn't expect them to cook.

 

If it's a shared arrangement then shared payments make sense.

 

I remember having to give my debit card to my ex so he could pretend he was paying for stuff. I earn more money than him so it made sense for me to pay, but he wanted it to appear like he was paying.

 

Made no difference to me and when the server used to bring the bill they always put it in front of him anyways. I think there's still a very strong perception that men are supposed to pay for stuff like that, even though women are perfectly capable of paying themselves.

 

There are definitely some women I know who milk this to get free drinks of a night, and I think it's wrong.

[Barmacral]

IMO offer to pay. Other party might say no, that they'd rather pay or split the bill. If that is the case let them, if they are happy with you paying then go ahead and pay. Just don't demand that you're going to be the one who pays. Make the offer and let them make the decision. If you're the one taking them out on the date then as likely as not they'll expect you to pay anyways since you're the initiator, as people above have noted.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

I only ask as I have known it to cause offence.

[Elgee]

I think people who can't think for themselves go overboard with things. Feminism is about being respected as an equal human being. Offering someone your coat because they look cold is not being disrespectful, it's bein thoughful and kind.  Telling a group of people they can't do something because, in YOUR opinion, they're not good/fast/strong/whatever enough to purely due to their gender / sexual orientation / skin colour ... now THAT'S disrespectful.

[Barmacral]

Indeed what Elgee said, and if you offer to pay and they get offended that is their problem, not yours, and you should definitely take that in consideration when you decide if you want to ask them out again.

[Verbal32]

Indeed what Elgee said, and if you offer to pay and they get offended that is their problem, not yours, and you should definitely take that in consideration when you decide if you want to ask them out again.

 

^ This is why I never asked Barm for a 2nd date, btw.

 

 

(sorry, couldn't help myself)

 

 

On topic, I agree with paying.  I'm "old-fashioned" as well.  Your intentions are coming from a good place - the onus is on her to recognize that and appreciate it.  The reverse is true as well if she wanted to pay.

[MasterAblar]

Personally I'd offer to pay. If she insists on paying for herself than no problem. That said if she refuses because she feels that I'm treating her as inferior, than that's a problem. I offer to pay because it's the polite thing to do, not because I feel that I'm obliged to do so. A person who can't understand that about me probably isn't someone I'd want to be with anyway.

 

 

I think that sports which focus on fine body control like ski jumping, archery, gymnastics, ice skating and a few others are going to be where mixing the competition might be possible, although gymnastics is a bit particular since men and women focus on different aspects. On the other hand sports where the athletes compete directly against one another, whether contact like basketball and soccer, or non contact like tennis and volleyball, are going to be very difficult to mix at the highest level. Sports that focus on basic physical attributes such as speed, strength, and endurance, like track and field events and cross country skiing are also unlikely to be mixed.
 
Frankly there's just a lot of sports out there. It's really pretty simple though: those sports which do not focus on physical attributes which favor men, are the ones most likely to be mixed.

Not necessarily :)

In 1992 a race called the Dragons Back race was run, it's a cross country event in Wales over 5 days, 300km, largely trackless... It's only been run twice, once in 1992 and again in 2012. In 92 half the teams that ran it (almost everybody had to enter in pairs for safety) dropped out. It was won by a male/female pair whose time was about an hour shorter than the next pair and about 12 hours faster than the first set of paratroopers to finish. Helen ran it again in 2012 and came 4th, despite not being able to train as obsessively as the first time.

The first ladies pair came 9th (about 2 hours slower than the paratroopers), but I'm unsure how many ladies pairs entered.

People who know more than me, think there's an argument that for ultra high endurance events that men and woman could compete equally.

 

 

It's possible, the problem is there just isn't enough data to really know at the moment. Generally speaking, the longer an event gets, the smaller the difference in performance between men and women. The idea generally being that the longer a course is the more body fat is going to be used and since women have a greater percentage of that, things slowly balance out. A very mountainous course would also tend to favor shorter bodies, which will typically be favorable to women. But like you said you have to go to very long distance for this to truly start taking effect.

 

Another thing to consider is that elite runners typically don't have much body fat to begin with. Marathon runners are pretty damn thin after all.

 

It's possible that with distances as long as the one you mentioned and even longer women could end up being equal and even superior in performance, but that's all theoretical. Not only that but those are very, very niche sports. It's the equivalent of doing a survey with like 50 participants. You take very popular sports like football, basketball, tennis, etc... and you can be pretty certain that most of the best, or potentially best players of those sports, are in fact playing those sports rather than another. With ultra marathons and longer, it's so niche, that it's difficult to know if those doing them are really potentially the best at them.

 

In the end I think the probable answer is, yes, on extreme distances, women are going to get very close to men. But these events are so unknown, that there's no way to really draw conclusions yet.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

pay. you made the invite you pay.

and hold the door please. doors are heavy.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Okay, everyone seems to be focusing on only one aspect of this (and let me reiterate that I would always want to pay!) so what, therefore if I have been invited! Do I sit there quietly waiting for the woman to pay for me?

 

What about offering a seat? I have seen young women take great offence and make a public scene at being offered a seat on a train.

[Elgee]

Some women are going to be offended if you offer them a seat, and some are going to be offended if you don't. At the end of the day, you're never going to please all of the people all of the time, so you might as well follow your own internal moral compass. And common sense.

[Ithillian Turambar]

I don't think a healthy young anyone needs to be offered a seat on a bus or train. Heavily pregnant women and some elderly or disabled people need to be able to sit down. People with pushchairs need to be able to site near the pushchair place. Warning - be careful about the pregnant thing and check for the giant round hard tummy and 'I really need to sit down' look. It has been known for women to get a bit cross because they are not actually pregnant ...

 

As for the date - is this someone you don't know at all? You could just ask her, 'Is it ok if I get this, this time?' Because then she can offer to go halves or pay or whatever. It also gives you an opening for 'next time'.

 

:)

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

I'm not discussing any particular situation. Just thought I'd throw a few things out there that I have observed (mostly to change the subject ) Good advice though, both of you.

[Elgee]

I'm not discussing any particular situation. Just thought I'd throw a few things out there that I have observed (mostly to change the subject ) Good advice though, both of you.

 

*Nods* we understand. They're excellent questions, though.

 

So here's a new thing (to me): several men have declared themselves to be feminists. Is this possible? Here's a link:

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/11048972/Can-a-man-ever-truly-call-himself-a-feminist.html

 

 

I think it is, though obviously it would be incredibly difficult for most. I cannot put myself 100% in the head of everyone who's ever suffered some kind of discrimination. It depends on one's capacity for empathy, I think. It's said that women are naturally more empathic than men, so by default men are less empathic. Maybe that's being sexist? Is it sexist if it's biologically and statistically true?

 

All I know is I've met several women who have all the empathy of a concrete block, but I've met men who are completely and utterly able to put themselves in someone else's shoes.

 

And then, I've known even more men who genuinely believe themselves to be "equal opportunity", but when you present them with certain scenarios, they for the life of them can't see how "that thing" could be sexist or hurtful or frustrating to women. Genuinely. They're sincere. Their heart is 100% in the right place. They just don't "get it".