"How Feminism Hurts Men"

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

There are always those who would rather capitalise and profit from an unjust situation than seek to change it, in whatever area of life it occurs.

[Elgee]

Just read this revue about the new Batgirl comic at Tor - brilliant! Here's the link to the revue, but I'm also posting it below. Beware spoilers.

 

http://www.tor.com/blogs/2014/10/batgirls-new-creative-team-is-already-punching-sexism-in-the-face-with-science?utm_source=exacttarget&utm_medium=Newsletter&utm_term=tordotcom&utm_content=-na_readblog_BlogPost&utm_campaign=Tor.comMediaCoverage

 

 

 

Batgirl’s New Creative Team is Already Punching Sexism in the Face — With Science!

Sam Riedel

I’m a sucker for youthful superheroics of any kind, from the Teen Titans to the Great Saiyaman. But all too often, super-powered kids get written as slightly less verbose adults, with no concern for young people’s actual tastes, tendencies, or—most importantly—problems. The new creators on DC Comics’ Batgirl, on the other hand, are doing a bang-up job portraying college student Barbara Gordon’s hectic life as an academic superstar by day and hip vigilante by night. But what’s coolest of all—besides her kickin’ new outfit—is that Batgirl is finally standing up for modern young women everywhere. And she’s doing it with science.

Before we go any further, I should note that I’m not trying to rip on the previous Batgirl team. Gail Simone in particular is a great writer with a lot of impressive comics work under her belt, and she’s done well by the character in her books for years. But since the New 52 relaunch in 2011, Batgirl has mainly been stuck fighting an array of C-list costumed villains that barely qualify as relevant when you have so many terrifying and compelling characters in the Bat-family rogues gallery already. To make Barbara Gordon go from Oracle—a role that saw her help every superhero in the DC Universe with her hacking and information-gathering skills—to just another girl in tights who punches crazy people once a month was disappointing, and would have been no matter who was writing the book.

Enter Batgirl #35, and with it the new team of Cameron Stewart (co-writer and breakdowns), Brenden Fletcher (co-writer), Babs Tarr (art), and Maris Wicks (colors). From page one, you can tell that everything has changed for Miss Gordon in an instant. Not only is she moving apartments in-story, the entire aesthetic of the book has shifted dramatically. Tarr’s art is expressive and stylized, but still realistic enough to ground the series in what reality is left in the DCU; Wicks’ colors are deep and vibrant, skillfully bringing Tarr’s chic character designs to life. By the time I hit the title page, I knew I was in for a treat.

I’ll spare you the plot summary, but some spoilers are necessary to understand what I’m getting at. Barbara uncovers a nefarious ring of computer thieves targeting people—especially young women—all around her new neighborhood of Burnside (think Williamsburg for kids that don’t want to live in downtown Gotham City. Who can blame them?). The thieves are working for Riot Black, a new character who is skeeziness personified. He runs DC’s equivalent of IsAnyoneUp, taking people’s personal information and private pictures and disseminating them for the lulz.

Batgirl, naturally, takes him down hard. But she uses her brain to do it.

That’s not to say she doesn’t get in her punches; it’s pretty satisfying to watch the scumbag get kneed right in the jaw. But since Black has a computer brain wired into his eye that stores all the stolen data, there’s no way to shut down the site. Except there is, because Batgirl offers to send him a Snapchat of her real identity if he’ll delete the rest of his stash—and instead covers her face with a QR code that wipes his brain-drive clean.

Wow. That’s not just a great modern sci-fi story, that’s solid millennial storytelling in general. Instead of pandering to younger readers with references to what’s trendy, Fletcher and Stewart are clearly committed to actually making Batgirl operate in her own space—that of young college students who exist on their devices, social networking madly all night and partying every day. The sheer brilliant irony of defeating a villain with the app he used to get so many compromising photos is worth the price of admission all by itself.

And that actually brings me back to what I was saying when I began this article: Batgirl’s use of science to mete out justice, not just for young people in general, but for women in particular. This issue’s plot couldn’t have been more timely; just a few weeks ago in Vanity Fair, Jennifer Lawrence addressed the now-infamous “Fappening” photo theft last month, saying she and many other actresses had been the target of a “sex crime.” This recent photo theft and the IsAnyoneUp ouevre of “revenge porn” is a sick byproduct of the Internet age, and one that directly affects every single woman who exists in a plugged-in part of the world.

That’s a tough story to navigate for two dudes writing a mainstream superhero book, and yet Fletcher and Stewart do so with aplomb. There’s no victim-blaming to be found between Batgirl #35’s covers; the closest you’ll find is a delightful page that combines two conversations into one narrative, in which a distraught young lady laments not deleting the “really personal” content on her phone. But the way the exchange is formatted definitively pins the blame on the thieves, and on Riot Black, and on the predatory culture he perpetuates.

That’s the true triumph of this new era of Batgirl: more than just showing that ladies can be action heroes too, it shows readers that young women have the power to take control of everything in their lives—and that when their trust is violated, when their privacy is breached, they are not to blame for the misdeeds of others.

But that being said, I’m sure we’ll see plenty of action heroics next month, when Batgirl squares off with twin ninja ladies on motorcycles. Can’t wait to see what this writing team has in store for us!

 

 

[Ryrin]

Well, that's certainly a change.... for the better.

[Elgee]

Well, that's certainly a change.... for the better.

 

Isn't it, just?

 

It makes me so frustrated each time I realise how many boundaries we as women still have to push just to get regarded as equal.

[Ryrin]

http://www.cnn.com/2014/10/28/living/hollaback-10-hours-walking-in-nyc/index.html What 10 hours of street harassment in NYC looks like.

 

This is just a sampling of what one woman in jeans and a T-shirt experienced in 10 hours of walking through the streets of New York City. Her experience was filmed and edited into a 1:56 public service announcement for anti-street-harassment group Hollaback!

 

Inspired by the experiences of his girlfriend, shooter Rob Bliss reached out to Hollaback! to partner on the PSA highlighting the impact of street harassment. For 10 hours, he walked with a camera in his backpack in front of Shoshana B. Roberts, as she carried two microphones in her hands.

 

Within hours of the video being posted to YouTube, commenters began posting threatening remarks, prompting Hollaback! to request help policing the video.

 

https://www.yahoo.com/news/video/woman-39-10-hours-street-112809174.html

 

To illustrate this point, a woman walked the streets of New York City for ten hours to see just how often she'd get catcalled. She even wore a T-shirt, jeans, and sneakers so people couldn't say her clothing meant she was asking for it.

 

The results? 108 catcalls in ten hours. That's an average of close to 11 an hour. One guy even goes so far as to walk silently in stride with the woman for five minutes after his initial greeting failed to capture her attention.

[reyler]

I saw that on Yahoo the other day. The comments were typically depressing, but I saw one that really crystallized for me what the mindset is of these guys who do this. It went something like "If she got no comments at all, how would she feel then?". Maybe, just maybe she'd have gone on with her day without thinking about it? Maybe women go out of their houses for reasons other than getting the attention and approval of men?

[Elgee]

I saw that on Yahoo the other day. The comments were typically depressing, but I saw one that really crystallized for me what the mindset is of these guys who do this. It went something like "If she got no comments at all, how would she feel then?". Maybe, just maybe she'd have gone on with her day without thinking about it? Maybe women go out of their houses for reasons other than getting the attention and approval of men?

 

*cheers*

[Ithillian Turambar]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29869909

 

Here, a woman has been sentenced to 1 year in jail because she watched a men's volleyball match. The ban on women watching male volleyball and football in Iran is due to the authorities believing they need 'protection from the lewd behaviour of men'.

 

So - it's the men behaving badly but the women who are committing the criminal offence?

 

I remember reading a while back in this Thread that instead of women having to learn self defence, we should be teaching all men to not commit rape. I think this actually the right way forwards.

 

Why should women need to learn self defence? If a woman has not learned self defence and she is attacked by a man, does it become her fault? Does that not lead to blaming the victim? Do we insist that shopkeepers learn self defence in case they are robbed?

 

Why should women be banned from watching a sport because men are deemed to be behaving lewdly?

 

A woman walks down the street in perfectly nondescript clothing and gets constant harrassment and when questioned the men say they were doing it for the benefit of the woman?

 

Although, even the bit where they chose the 'ordinary' clothes for her made me seethe - because if she'd been wearing something more figure hugging or revealing she'd be fair game?

 

I don't have daughters, but I do have two sons. Sometimes I hear them say, 'girl"s colour' or, 'girl's toy' in a scathing tone and that makes me so sad and peeved off - because you can be damn sure they're not getting that from me.

 

So I counter with 'Mummy is a girl and mummy is awesome. Mummy's favourite colour is blue, mummy is the best at building lego and traintracks and fixing stuff that gets broken. There's no limitations on boys and girls. Colours don't mean anything.'

 

Because the only way this stops is if society and men don't think it's 'ok' to behave like this. So yes - let's stop saying women are to blame for the bad behaviour of (some) men.

[bcxanth]

I remember reading a while back in this Thread that instead of women having to learn self defence, we should be teaching all men to not commit rape. I think this actually the right way forwards.

 

Why should women need to learn self defence? If a woman has not learned self defence and she is attacked by a man, does it become her fault? Does that not lead to blaming the victim? Do we insist that shopkeepers learn self defence in case they are robbed?

 

Women should learn self-defense for the same reason men should learn; because there are bad people in the world who will do bad things to you if given the chance.  The difference is that boys are actively encouraged to do things that teach them self-defense while growing up.  Martial arts, boxing, wrestling, etc.  Whereas society still seems those things as something that's "too danderous" for a little girl to do.  Consequently girls grow up not knowing those skills.

 

Of course it's not anyone's fault, male or female, if someone attacks them in any way unprovoked.  But people should know how to protect themselves.  Telling women not to learn self-defense, and instead telling men they should have to go to classes to learn how not to rape (because that's the only logical analogue to telling a woman to go to a class to learn to defend herself), is just as bad.  It's taking the position that all men are going to rape and that we need to be taught not to do it.  That's just as sexist of an attitude as the attitude that women deserve to be raped if they wear sexy clothes.

 

The vast majority of men are not evil sadistic bastards.  We know that it's wrong to rape a woman, and we'd never do it.  Saying "Oh, you're a man.  You need to take this class to be taught not to rape," is not the answer.  Not if the end result you want is gender equality and mutual respect.

[Turin Turambar]

Self defense training is well and good but in the particular example of crimes against women it is the long standing and as evidenced by the videos linked above continuing mindset that it is perfectly okay to harass a woman walking down the street that is alarming. It is sending the message that these women are simply there for the amusement of the men. That the women do NOT have the right to move about by themselves without being bothered. (I am assuming that the harassment declines or stops completely if the woman is in the company of a man).

 

It seems that only in the arena of crimes against women is the victim so commonly blamed. I don't hear about the robbed shop owner being told it was their fault that they had goods in their store that people would want to steal. Or it was the car jacked person's fault for having a nice car. Until the attitude that it makes any difference what the woman was wearing or how they walked or anything else that attempts to blame the victims in this single case that there will not be change. 

 

Maybe the real class that all should be taught is to simply respect each other. Bottom line is that people that do these things do not respect women. And in some cases they do not respect themselves. 

[Barmacral]

bcx - The not all men argument is a terrible one. Of course women know that not all men are bad, however, not all simply means that some are, and all men should be good. You also can't always easily identify which men are the bad and good, so yes, having anti-rape classes should indeed be necessary. It also works in the whole "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" trope. You spend at least a little bit of time teaching men to respect women and that is a lot of hours women don't have to spend learning self defense because "not all men are bad but some are". The attitude that men should be taking anti-rape classes isn't sexist. Quite the opposite actually, it is leading a lot further towards gender equality than a woman learning how to defend herself from bad men is.

[Ithillian Turambar]

I think that consent and mutual respect could easily become a core part of sex education for both genders.

 

And thus all people should be taught that rape is wrong. Both males and females are raped and should be taught that if the worst happens it's not their fault. The circle of shame and victim blaming should stop. Rape is about control and violence.

 

In the case in our news recently, a young woman was set upon by a group of young men wearing masks and subjected to a sexual assualt. Another young woman was assaulted and threatened with rape during rush hour commuter time in a busy street. Thankfully passers by intervened. Both of them were in fear of their lives and when you're afraid you're not always able to remember what you should or shouldn't do in these situations.

 

In fact in robberies and other violent crimes you're told to just hand over what they want. Bank tellers hand over the money. Shop keepers empty the tills. Don't be a hero and stay alive is the mantra.

 

Only in sexual assualt are we taught that fighting back is essential. I shouldn't have to be worried that I'm going to get raped walking through town in broad daylight. I'd hope that if it happened I'd fight and scream and kick and run, but I'd also want to live. And maybe I'd be too afraid to fight.

 

In India girls can't go to the toilet without fear of being raped. It's used as a punishment at times.

 

And I'm sorry if you think that me saying it is wrong that men rape people and that is would be better that all men learned that it was wrong. I don't believe I mentioned sending men and boys to classes to learn, I was being an idealist and hoping that society would come together to teach everyone that rape is wrong. But having it as part of sex education - that's something that should certainly happen.

 

And the vast majority of rapists are men. But the vast majority of men are not rapists. I certainly did not say and nor do I believe that all men are rapists.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Something interesting on the subject out of Australia: http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/im-no-feminist-julie-bishop-20141029-11dn7m.html

 

Most of it is political nonsense on all sides, nothing tangible, but it affects the public. It also re-enforces the importance of words, names and labels and how it is approached. 

 

I don't have much to say about J.B's comments - they are purely political as a conservative politician, it plays right into her voter base, as are the comments from the opposite side. However, I am interested in how this affects public perception. 

 

Her comments re-enforces the negative stigma that Feminists are whining and making excuses to further their goals, which I think we can all agree is by and large untrue. 

 

In spite of this, J.B has inadvertently done more than most that call themselves Feminists in advancing the cause. Yet with one phrase, everything changes. 

 

The UN has recognized the need for a new approach and has started it with Emma Watson's speech. It doesn't matter how right you are, if you don't convince people, it doesn't matter. 

 

This problem can be seen just recently (note, I'm not saying anyone is 'wrong' or 'bad')

 

 

 

we should be teaching all men to not commit rape. I think this actually the right way forwards.

 

I know that it wasn't intentional and I understood what you meant, but the phrasing and approach didn't help - with the results as expected. 

 

However, when you clarified, it made much more sense. 

 

(As a note, here in Australia we are taught respect etc.. in sexual education classes at school, and of course taught that harassment and such is bad, which I totally agree with.) 

 

I'm mentioning this because perception has become a problem with the movement, which is evident throughout the thread. 

 

The approach to Feminism needs to - and is - be adjusted to produce better results, and words/phrasing/names are very important. It sounds ridiculous - and it is really, when women are being killed for asinine reasons, here in the "West" we are talking about phrasing and approach - however, it's a necessary 'evil'. 

 

Unfortunately, justice in this world does not prevail. Persuasion does. I mean, it took some 10,000 years to abolish slavery, and even now it still lingers. 

 

To understand my approach, I'll state that I do not identify myself as a Feminist -connecting to J.B's statement, but her views are not mine. Now, if I said that - people would think me apathetic to the cause or against it, just like JB. However, I identify myself as an Egalitarian. This means that I almost fully support Feminist ideas. It is more representative of me, as Feminisim is only one part of my ideals. It is one issue - perhaps the most important, but still only one - of many in regards to equality.

 

This is why I personally believe that it is in the best interest of Feminism - and I know not all agree - to now focus their attention to men. After all, men - the oppressors, the dominant- are the greatest ally. 

 

I have copped a bit of criticism for it, but I think that bludgeoning men with facts about rape, assault, and all the other horrible things men do to women is ineffective in today's social climate. As I'm sure many have observed, people are being driven away from Feminism - the trend of women not wanting to be associated with Feminism is alarming to say the least, and indicative that the way it is handled should be changed to be more effective.

 

Thus, I have been in support of a new approach which appeals to men by showing them how sexism affects US. People say that bringing up the sexism men face is silly and not worth talking about, that Feminist issues are much more important, and men's issues are lesser, and that talking about one gender's issues is ignoring the other. I believe that this attitude is wrong. We are all in the same boat. The perfect example being the Japanese artist who address this: http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/10/16/viral-comic-captures-how-sexism-affects-everyone

 

To quote the end line: "Because the same sexism that hurts women also hurts men. 

 

Because talking about one groups issues doesn't mean that we're belittling another group."

 

People (in this case men) are more likely then to get interested and concerned about the appalling things that are being done to women. Empathy goes a long way in things like this. The same as how people with mental illness are much more connected and concerned about others with mental illnesses, than those who have not been affected by it.

 

I think that this and other similar campaigns are the way forward to achieving the best results. Many may not agree with me, and call it egotistical, missing the point or what have you - all things I have had said - but I am doing what I believe is in the best interests of the movement. 

 

 

Edit: As to why I have suddenly popped in. It is something that has been increasingly important to me lately. 

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

There's an exhibit on feminism at the Tate in London. I'm going to go because this thread has raised my awareness.

[Elgee]

How on earth does one have an exhibit on feminism?

 

Ok you need to go and then come back and tell us all about it ... lol

[Barmacral]

Not hard at all, focus on the history, the challenges women have faced over time and end with a section on the challenges women face even now and how to help improve things for women.

[Barid Bel Medar]

At school we did 2-3 months worth of learning about the struggle for women's rights. The Suffragettes, all the hunger strikes etc...

 

They were some hardcore women back in the day, and many died for the rights taken for granted today. I think it is a good idea that all (men and women) learn a bit about the history of 'Feminism' not through the lens which it is now perceived, but the brutal and courageous struggle that took place over the last two centuries. People might then understand and appreciate what it's really about. 

[MasterAblar]

People in general are pathetically ignorant of history period, unfortunately.

[michellem]

I wish I was in London now, that sounds like it would be interesting Fnorrll. I alerted a friend that lives in London though!

 

 

 

So, a guy was talking to his female friend about online dating, and he was like "Girls have it soo easy when it comes to online dating". She disagreed, and he decided to make a fake profile as a woman on an online dating site. This is his experience: http://jezebel.com/man-poses-as-woman-on-online-dating-site-barely-lasts-1500707724

[blank]

There's an exhibit on feminism at the Tate in London. I'm going to go because this thread has raised my awareness.

You are an absolute gem and I don't say that enough!

 

Mish - that's a cool link! I'd seen something similar before except the fake girl's profile was a hot girl saying awful things and men still wanted to date/sleep with her. I've been doing a bit of online dating myself and while my onslaught of horrible messages wasn't quite as bad as this person's it can be pretty bad. But then again - I deliberately don't engage with people that I think might go off on one. Like if they mention anything physical about me in the first message I won't reply because experience has taught me it can get nasty.

 

Also, I came here to post this - a sexy woman's PhD costume - the reviews are priceless  Lots of woman studying for/with PhDs have commented on it and who says feminists don't have a sense of humour? 

[Meridian]

Wow at the Ph.D. costume. I wish diplomas were that easy to get. >.<

 

It is really depressing that as a woman, one will be practically ignored on Halloween if one is not wearing a costume classified as "sexy" and covering as absolutely little as possible, or threatening to split at the seams momentarily. What if I'd much rather have a good conversation with someone?

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

How on earth does one have an exhibit on feminism?

 

Ok you need to go and then come back and tell us all about it ... lol

Okay so basically from what I could tell it began in the 70's and thru the 80's up to present and basically they were artworks that were meant to question women's place in art (there were parts asking why so many nudes in art are female) and there were parts exploring femininity in general through the last couple of decades and also exploring women's place in society- so pictures about the "stereotypical" view of a woman at home cleaning, and paintings depicting women's progress in the work environment from totally unbalanced to the relatively more balanced though far from perfect position we see today.

 

I'm not an artist and I didnt get what tonnes of it was about but I got that general drift in the short time I had available to look (lunch break one day when I was in the area) so I hope that makes sense.

[Elgee]

Here's an article written by a South African woman: http://www.dailymaverick.co.za/opinionista/2014-10-30-whats-in-this-feminazi-shit/#.VFuAX2e-BEO

 

Amongst other things, she gives some statistics on abuse against women, and then this bit:

That is, of course, not counting the countless sexist comments online; the endless hooting and leering from cars when walking through town; the trolling on the internet, where one inevitably faces threats of sexual violence. The leering, being felt up, being told to smile because they’re ‘just being friendly’, (in the same way an abuser who gives you flowers is ‘just being generous?’), being patronised, being told what your body should look like, being told what it does look like, working harder for less, being underestimated, constantly fearing violent attack, being actually subjected to violent attack. Paying with your life for succeeding. I spoke to a woman who runs self defence classes and has interviewed dozens of rapists. “When I ask them what they do when women fight back they look at me dumbfounded,” she said. “It has never even occurred to them.”

 

Women are being plucked off the streets like candy off Christmas trees.

 

It’s not new. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

 

We’re sick of it.

 

And we’re sick of intelligent men playing dumb about it.

 

[Barid Bel Medar]

http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/11/07/us-pick-artist-julien-blanc-leaves-australia-after-visa-revoked

[Elgee]

... is that guy for real ??