Red Ajah IWW: Crimes against women in the Media (Discussion)

[Elgee]

I believe Fnorrll posted something. Go read it. Follow his directions.

[The_Fnorrll_Reborn]

Tyler please take five an await a PM from myself.

[Kivam]

I have been molested, yet to deal with it I have not felt the need to paint a picture about it, or write a song about it or even an article, actually the only time I have ever even spoke about it is in a moment when it seemed it would help someone else. So no I do not feel rational sane people express/release their negative emotions through art forms . . .

 

 

Gud:

 

1) Can't respond to any post that leads with that type of personal disclosure without anything but sadness and anger.

 

2) That said, defining the range of "rational sane normal" behavior in response to a negative event like that by the reaction of a single person, even (or perhaps especially) your own, isn't really justifiable.  More, I'd suggest that, in a sense, it's the same type of thinking that underlies the "she did ____ after she claims she was raped/assaulted?  She must be lying.  Nobody would _____ after being attacked . . ."

[lolguy26]

^that

 

Guddy, dude everyone have their own ways of dealing with their Traumas, imagine if you can't forget, imagine if you see the scene over and over in your dreams, imagine if no one beileves you were molested, you have to let out the strss in one way or another, while you or I could see the way stupid or sick, to the victim it makes perfect sense...

 

(I'm sorry if I'm derailing the thread, or if you think I'm attacking you guddy, just had to post that)

[Gudrean]

To anyone I offended with my comment about expression through art, I apologize as it was written under a stressful situation, and I did not word what I really meant to say correctly and I did not proof read it. My last two or so posts were directed at one person and one comment ONLY. I was under attack from Nolder and so acted without thinking it through. This is another example of what happens when someone feels attacked and has to defend themselves against nonsense. I realize that people deal with stress and trauma in many different ways and that ART is most def. a form of expression, and how you express your inner self is a direct result of your life experiences, however I had, had enough with the line of questioning going on and I lashed out at him and in doing so did not think my thoughts out clearly. Again I am sorry to Taltos and anyone else I offended. But it is still my opinion, and I stand by it, that a picture of someone being raped would be awful and I would never buy it or even want to see it. And I don't need to defend my opinion in this. It's mine.

[Daruya]

This post is from my own point of view, lest anyone think I am attacking theirs . . .

 

People may handle their traumas differently but I have no desire to see or hear anything resembling my trauma (or anyone else's similar trauma) in "art." It would be the farthest thing from therapeutic to me. So I'm with Gudrean on having a hard time comprehending how it could help someone to paint or draw or write songs or poetry about something so abhorrent. Maybe it would be therapeutic for some to draw/paint such a scene and then to burn it but for display so that it would be a constantly visible reminder? Yeah . . . I still can't see it. How on earth could that be cathartic? As for the Eminem songs, I'll admit I don't listen to him but I'm not impressed with the words posted here, either. It's considered art to sing about shooting a cop? Beating a woman? No, for me, if it comes to anything like rap or hip-hop, I'll stick with Lecrae. At least his message is, for the most part, uplifting. Again, JMO, YMMV.

[Mystica]

I have to go through this thread again slowely and with full attention but there is one thing I would like to get out in the open immediately.

To those that think inequality and violence against women is a 'past' issue or an issue that doesn't exist or no longer exists in their country (notably the US or Canada from what I have read in these discussions), think again.
 
Here's just one example.

 

 

 

I dunno how to inbed video here so you'll just have to watch it on youtube. But this is one of many examples of why this issue is very much still a present and very current problem of ALL countries.

And just because some choose to put their heads in the sand doesn't mean the issue isn't there. That just means those people have sand in their eyes, ears and most likely brains as well.

[Mystica]

oh wow, look at that. the video inbedded automatically. I'm better than I thought.... Go me!

[lolguy26]

This post is from my own point of view, lest anyone think I am attacking theirs . . .

 

People may handle their traumas differently but I have no desire to see or hear anything resembling my trauma (or anyone else's similar trauma) in "art." It would be the farthest thing from therapeutic to me. So I'm with Gudrean on having a hard time comprehending how it could help someone to paint or draw or write songs or poetry about something so abhorrent. Maybe it would be therapeutic for some to draw/paint such a scene and then to burn it but for display so that it would be a constantly visible reminder? Yeah . . . I still can't see it. How on earth could that be cathartic?

Well true but I don't think anyone would show their darkest and closest kept secret

[Arez Al'Loke]

Darn it.. I appologize to Gudrean specifically. I tried to make a point at the cost of someone else's perile, it could have been done differently. So I'm sorry for singleing you out like that.

 

About art, I believe that people have alot of different ways to cope with a situation. A woman experiancing trauma like this might have a hard time making people believe her, so, another outlet could be to paint something, sing something or w/e.

Although the things said person did to cope with the situation, might not be therapeutic to someone else facing the same situation. The best purpose of, lets say a paiting someone did that resembled the act of raping, would be to raise awarness of other people so they won't have to face the same situation as said person.

[Gudrean]

I appreciate your apology and fully accept it with no grudge or feelings hurt!! =) I have learned my lesson about posting without proof reading and posting while you are upset, you never know what will come out. I said something in a way that I didn't even believe because I said it while I was upset and didn't think it through. So no hard feelings.

[WildTaltos]

This post is from my own point of view, lest anyone think I am attacking theirs . . .

 

People may handle their traumas differently but I have no desire to see or hear anything resembling my trauma (or anyone else's similar trauma) in "art." It would be the farthest thing from therapeutic to me. So I'm with Gudrean on having a hard time comprehending how it could help someone to paint or draw or write songs or poetry about something so abhorrent. Maybe it would be therapeutic for some to draw/paint such a scene and then to burn it but for display so that it would be a constantly visible reminder? Yeah . . . I still can't see it. How on earth could that be cathartic? As for the Eminem songs, I'll admit I don't listen to him but I'm not impressed with the words posted here, either. It's considered art to sing about shooting a cop? Beating a woman? No, for me, if it comes to anything like rap or hip-hop, I'll stick with Lecrae. At least his message is, for the most part, uplifting. Again, JMO, YMMV.

Its happens noentheless, and it dos serve soem purpos of the artist's trauma, whthre their tryin to snd a mesage thruogh shok and/or it releses the negativty for awhiel that thy mgih not be able to expres in any tohre way. A good exmple is Artemisia Gentileschi, a woman paintre of the renaisance, who was herslf raped, yet she wen on to paint Susanna and the Elders, whch is a scne taht takes place rght befoer the woman of th pictuer is raped, and unliek all the ;heroic" rape sscenes of th time, it expreses sympthy to the woman in hre rejectin expresion. Ths is a link to a scan of the pictue, its not graphc but has a nude woman torso so didnt kno if peple wuold liek that evn if a paintin:

 

http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/Images/ARTH200/Women/a_gentelleschi_susanna.jpg

 

The woman isnt the artist herlsef persay an its not her rape but its stil a prelued to the act nonthless, so she mus haev had some level of comfort or purpos in creatin somethin dealin wtih someting so personal for al to see. I wriet about some of th abuses done to me in childhood, some of whch is short recountin of an actul ocurence to me myslf, othres of whch aer done on a charactr in oen of my few fictionl pieces, soem of whch I share becuse its part of a largre story an isnt jus focusd on child abues, others of which i dnot becuse it just a sketch of waht hapaneed and not someting very sharable to othres unliek a narative story or epic poem, and I find both thngs helpful in at lest geting the negatvity out and for oens I shaer, I thnk or I hope it shocks thm and abhors thm or inspiers sympathy to th charactr so audience wuoldnt ever cosidering doing anythin liek taht to a child.

[Gudrean]

this painting actually portrays something with out being vile or graphic, so I can see it being artistic expression.

[Ryrin]

Yes, Tal. You don't ever want what happened to you to happen to other children. Gudrean, I am repelled by "art" that depicts rape, abuse, torture.

[Gudrean]

I wanted to bring up a point that not all violence against women is done in a "violent" way, as in the case I read about a couple days ago where two teenage boys did things to a 16 yr old girl after a wild party while she was very drunk and then after she passed out. The witnesses were taking pictures and making vile jokes like I'll pay anyone $3 who urinates on her, all this while she is laying in the middle of the road passed out. They are currently in court for this.

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/13/day-one-of-steubenville-rape-trial-prosecutor-outlines-alleged-rape-of-substantially-impaired-16-year-old-girl/

[AesSedaiGuy]

I wanted to bring up a point that not all violence against women is done in a "violent" way, as in the case I read about a couple days ago where two teenage boys did things to a 16 yr old girl after a wild party while she was very drunk and then after she passed out. The witnesses were taking pictures and making vile jokes like I'll pay anyone $3 who urinates on her, all this while she is laying in the middle of the road passed out. They are currently in court for this.

 

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2013/03/13/day-one-of-steubenville-rape-trial-prosecutor-outlines-alleged-rape-of-substantially-impaired-16-year-old-girl/

I think this is actually exceedingly relevant. When we don't call VAW for what it is, or mistakenly assume it is just the same as any other violence, we either don't recognize this kind of thing, or don't hold those who were "just laughing" accountable. We had several incidents while not as graphic as depicted in Gud's link/story, when I was in High School. I don't know of any specific cases like this, but there were other incidents like there was a guy who would walk around and grab girls and simulate "humping" them. He would then push them into other guys who were "supposed" to continue the charade. I was the object of one of his "pass offs" one day, and being the gentleman I am, I helped the girl regain her footing and apologized for his imbecilic behavior. As a result, I was ridiculed and called "gay" because I didnt act like an animal. Now I am not asking for any sympathy for me. I wasnt crushed or damaged because of the derision, nor was it the first or last time I was called names or had my sexuality questioned. My point is NOT about me, but to illustrate the core of the issue. Namely ... It wasnt considered a big deal, I'm not trying to blow anything out of proportion. I never saw a female student "hurt" or even in tears, annoyance seemed to be the most common response. But that was also the biggest response by adults as well. There were disappointing clucks at his ungentlemanly conduct, annoyance at "immature males" and the one I have always found most repulsive "boys will be boys", but no acknowledgement that he was deliberately targeting girls and objectifying them. The was no calling it what it was. A few girls tried to hit back, but never anything serious, which I find concerning as well. If it was my daughter I hope she would have taken the advice Arez mentioned earlier and deliver a firm kick to the groin. I also hope that would have been my daughter's response even after he let her go. I am not trying to say this misguided immature youth should have been placed in jail and had his future robbed of him, but I also think there should have been an addressing of what he was doing and an appropriate calling it what it is, assault and harassment. Those who out of peer pressure or ignorance or immaturity participated as well in his game should have been made to feel ashamed and understood his actions were not acceptable, nor were theirs and the females who were "victims" should also have been defended, whether they felt anything more than annoyance or not. This is the problem with VAW and the lack of recognition, (as was expressed or alluded to earlier) it most often features an aspect of humiliation, and it is the humiliation that is also a crime. With that in mind, I think a better understanding of the response and reaction to seeing VAW depicted against women in media is another side of the coin. The acceptance and lack of acknowledgement of the humiliation or degradation as a part of the physical violence is every bit as important as calling out the actual physical act. A woman does not have to be raped or beaten or molested to be a victim of VAW and therefore if the intent of the media depiction is not "valid"*, it is contributing and complicit in said violence of the act and in our society.

 

*valid is used in this case not as a personal judgement call on my part, but rather if the person has a valid/justifiable reason to themselves on why they depicted or expressed themselves or this act in the manner they did. This does not prevent a person from expressing their pain through writing a story about a violent act they experienced, but rather puts the ownership on them to examine what their purpose is for expressing the act.

[WildTaltos]

this painting actually portrays something with out being vile or graphic, so I can see it being artistic expression.

So if it is soemting vile or graphic, it cant be an artstic expresion? I see artstic expresion as defined as expresion of an innre idea or thought or els an act or objct in real life as seen by th artst thruogh artistic medium, whther paint, song/music, penicl, wahtever. Of cuorse some thngs cant be cuonted as artstic expresion in this age even if on first apearance they fit taht defintion - for exmple, porn, becuse such thngs arent concrned with caputering some deepr meanin to wahts bein shown or convrying much how the person maeking the film sees it or fels abuot it, its jus meant as puer entrtainment, i.e. someting that requires some reciprocal intelectual activit by the audince, as art dos by demnding interpretation. So by that defintin, somthing that is graphc and unplesant to someones sense cn be an artsitic expresion - whethre it is high art or low art thuogh, tastefil or distastful, is unduobtedly opinionatd, whethre by th individul to decid or a panel of competnt judges. For exmple, I am so disgusted by this and wuoldnt want to call it art:

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-MuukQHKVemE/TehLBbAP4JI/AAAAAAAAIAY/as4Qg8-HbLQ/s1600/6-abstract-art-hema-rana.jpg

 

It is th clasic "taht looks liek my 5 yer old son did it, so cnt be art" arguemnt - I dont wnt to call it art becuse semed to requir litle to no skill, becuse I have intnse apreciation for skill and care, and dosnt seem to convy anythin inteligible. But I haev to grudgingly admit it is art - soemone made it wth some idea in mind an it can be intrepreted intelectualy, evn if it requiers more emotion than logic. But I haev the freedim to call it eithre high or low art, and in ths caes I wuold call it low art becuse I judg art by how mch care an enrgy on th part of creator semed to go into it and whther it speks both to the logical and emotionl parts of the brain, and ths dosnt seme have much of any skil and can onl posibly evok dim emotins in the emotional brain, yet it is somehw haild in modern art circles. Ths on the othre hand I wuold consider high art, evn thogh the contnt is graphic, evn if somwhat mild compard to some modren defintions of the word:

 

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/GENTILESCHI_Judith.jpg

 

Its also by Gentileschi an its caled Judith slayin Holofernes. I kno its prety off topic but I wantd to make the case that thngs taht portray someting offensive an graphc can be an artistic expresion based on how I defind the concpt, whiel it wuold probaly be moer accurat to thn say whethre it is a good or poor peice of art basd on waht someone thnks abuot graphc depictions or whatevr personal critria there juding on.

[Gudrean]

this painting actually portrays something with out being vile or graphic, so I can see it being artistic expression.

 

Although I don't like defending what is my own opinion of something, and I take no offense to your questions, I only stated in my comment that this picture is not vile or graphic, and it is in my opinion artistic expression. I suppose it could be construed that I meant no art that is vile or graphic is a form of expression, but again that is not what I said/meant. Now having said that let me talk about art expression in my own life, 1) I have kids ranging from 22 months to 17 years and every piece of art they do is in my mind an expression of art through there eyes  2) my children and I LOVE to sing, and so when we do it is an expression of art 3) I am a gamer and I love to make new toons just so I can come up with new and exciting combinations of skills, this too is a form of art expression 4) I play MtG and also make decks from scratch, this is also a form of art expression 5) i used to build websites, they were very creative and so were artistic to me  The reason I give examples is so it shows that I do understand the wide range of what art can be, if your art is dark or what I consider vile or graphic, I will not say it is not art, only that I find it too graphic for my taste and that I would rather not view it, To each his own, but I will not change my views or opinions even if they are not popular or accepted. Taltos please do not think I am upset with your questions, as I am only trying to clarify where i am coming from. It might not come through in my posts but I LOVE people and am a gentle loving person and do not wish to argue or debate, it's not my favorite thing hehe =)

 

Oh and neither of the provided links are vile or graphic in my opinion

[bhskeeper11]

 

Was this meant as a closed discussion?

This whole discussion is very tabu, nuff said. So in essence, yes, it's a closed discussion. Because anyone who offers another perspective will be looked down at as a female "hater".

Or atleast that's how the thread is comming of as.

This.

 

I'm a female, and I have been a victim of assault (from an ex-boyfriend) and multiple instances of verbal abuse.

 

The only instances where I can see violence against women in media being an issue is in children's programming or for mentally retarded people. Media is entertainment meant to reflect life-both good and bad-and for the functioning adult, this doesn't create any stigma or impression that those bad things are okay.

 

The idea of stifling violence against women in media is what is offensive, more than anything else. There are issues that exist and ignoring that is offensive to those of us who actually lived through such an ordeal and understand that there are many dark corners of the world.