Red Ajah IWW: Crimes against women in the Media (Discussion)

[WildTaltos]

Just a note.

 

While he may not have the most tact and some of the ways he does discussions are... questionable, he is discussing this as is the purpose of the thread. Just because he points out flaws in arguements does not mean he is insulting them or calling their points BS.

Ther was no pointin out flaws in argumnt save sayin oen of th songs wsnt abuot ex wif or mother - he was insinuting the songs by Eminim shuold be discreditd frm havin contnt of violence aginst women just becuse the artist intende it as fantsy for entertinment, whch is liek sayin the film Canibal Holocaust shuldnt be creditd for displyin canibalism an violny murder and rape jus becuse the directr/writer isnt realy a canibal or rapist, its just fantasy entertinment, so taht semed bein besids the point as explanid earlier.

 

Anyways, movng on.

[Nolder]

 

 

Eminem’s catalog- a lot of his works include references to hurting his mother or his ex-wife (97 Bonnie and Clyde, and Stan, for example).

Anyone that knows Eminem knows that when it comes to the violent stuff it's all just fantasy for entertainment. He loves Kim and would do anything for her and he and his mom worked things out. BTW Stan has nothing to do with either his ex or his mom. It's about a crazy fan.

 

As for the topic at large. I'd have to say it's all BS. If someone has serious mental issues maybe media would be suggestive to them but when the other 90% of the population sees Mario jump on a turtle we don't want to hurt turtles (or people!). All media is entertainment and for the most part everyone knows that.

Nolder:

 

1.) She is not refering to the artist ad a person - she is referin to th content of teh songs, whch (aand Im jus goin to asume from what im readin becuse I dont listen to rap, is violnt), and wherthre or not is fantsy to him maeks litle diference. The point of th discusion is for peple to expres whethre they thnk ths fictional/fantsy elemnt of women bein abused in media (in ths instanc, music) has an effct on peples thinkin at large, whethre children or adult, and whethr they thikn it right to sho it regardlss, how they fel abuot it, etc. 

 

2.) THIS IS NOT DEBATES AND DISCUSSION. this is a discusion for peple to expres their thughts and if disagre, point out why disagree politely not by sumarly sayin evrything being adresed is bulls***, which cuold insult othres who may haev som opinin that th media is sugestive or influentil. Yu know wher the bord for bein inflamatory is. 

Well I don't think I was insulting or rude. I think the topic is BS, I'm not trying to put Moon down for posting it or anything. It's just a discussion point and I know that. My feelings on the topic has nothing to do with women specifically, I just don't think any form of media makes or encourages violence in mentally healthy people. Who is performing violence and on what is irrelevant to me because I don't believe it has any large adverse effect.

 

As for Eminem specifically. He's one of my favorite artists and I know his content and why he made almost every song. Yes some of his music is violent. That's no different from the latest blockbuster in theaters or the top rated TV dramas or the wheel of time itself which is what this forum is dedicated to. Showing violence, talking about violence, expressing violence does not encourage or promote violence. In fact several of his songs, like Stan, are cautionary in nature and tell not to take his music too seriously or do anything crazy over it. I'd even go so far as to call a few of his songs inspirational. For example:

 

 

I'm not afraid (I'm not afraid)

To take a stand (to take a stand)

Everybody (everybody)

Come take my hand (come take my hand)

We'll walk this road together, through the storm

Whatever weather, cold or warm

Just letting you know that, you're not alone

Holla if you feel like you've been down the same road (same road)

 

- Not Afraid

 

 

 

 

 

 

But don't let 'em say you ain't beautiful

Oh they can all get f****d.

Just stay true to you so

Don't let 'em say you ain't beautiful

Oh they can all get f****d.

Just stay true to you so...

 

And to the rest of the world, god gave you the shoes

That fit you, so put 'em on and wear 'em

And be yourself, man, be proud of who you are

Even if it sounds corny,

Don't ever let anyone tell you, you ain't beautiful, so...

 

- Beautiful

he was insinuting the songs by Eminim shuold be discreditd frm havin contnt of violence aginst women just becuse the artist intende it as fantsy for entertinment, whch is liek sayin the film Canibal Holocaust shuldnt be creditd for displyin canibalism an violny murder and rape jus becuse the directr/writer isnt realy a canibal or rapist, its just fantasy entertinment, so taht semed bein besids the point as explanid earlier.

It wasn't my intent to exclude Eminem from the lists being posted. As a fan I felt compelled to comment on what I feel was the inaccuracy of using Stan as an example of Eminem singing about hurting his mom or Kim. Rereading it I can see that the examples were meant to be taken separately from the comment so my bad on that. I misunderstood.

[AesSedaiGuy]

I have a question ... First let me say I am in agreement that the media, or more truthfully, "society" does tend to denigrate and objectify women. But what does it mean when women are complicit in the denigration and objectification? I don't think it negates the concern, but it changes the outcome. Is it some sort of gender Stockholm Syndrome?

 

Of the music videos you mentioned, 3 are by women. And not necessarily "weak" or mousy or even conforming women. I though Britney Spears Slave 4 U was one of the most repulsive songs/videos/performance I have seen ... Not because it is Britney Spears, who I don't care for, but for it's imagery.

 

Also, and I know this is going back a bit, but I agree with Tyler. I don't see why Psycho would get singled out anymore than any other slasher movie. I mean I know there is the psychology of the shower scene and the "knife" as penetration, but I am not sure that the movie or the scene itself was any more targeted at women, as opposed to the female character.

 

I also think, in some movies there has to be reference to objectification and "crimes" against women, because they are telling a story, where that is relevant, this could be not only the actual plot, but a recognition of the fact that society objectifies and commits crime against women, and movies are just a reflection of that sad fact, or are referencing it to make us aware that it exists ... Holding up a mirror, if you will. Not in all cases, I know, and even then, it can go too far if the emphasis is placed on the act, rather than the root, but just something to think about.

 

And finally, on the debate above I agree with Talt. Although I like Eminem very much, I see the point that is being made. I don't think the issue is, Nolder, that it is being said otherwise healthy people would go commit violence because of these videos or images. I too believe in a measure of self-responsibility. However, the point is more to recognize the objectification for what it is. To me it is like video games and gun control. I do not think video games make for terrorized youth who do acts of violence. However, I do think they contribute to the violent nature of our society by normalizing it. I don't think they should be banned, I think we should recognize what it says that we have them in the first place. (Not to derail the thread ... Just an example) To me, denigration of women in media says more about society's view of women. The media images themselves are not the problem, they just expose the existence of the real problem.

[Arez Al'Loke]

However, I do think they contribute to the violent nature of our society by normalizing it.

I'm afraid there is absolutely no proof that supports your point on this.

[AesSedaiGuy]

I'm not trying to debate video games. Just FYI, and maybe I'm not clear enough .... Or maybe I am, and you're still right.

 

I was trying to say the fact that we want to play violent video games may be part of the problem ... Not the games themselves ... Same with denigration of women. That's what I was attempting to say.

[Gudrean]

 

However, I do think they contribute to the violent nature of our society by normalizing it.

I'm afraid there is absolutely no proof that supports your point on this.

and I'm sure there is no proof that supports the opposite either. the point being in this entire thread is that society is not made up of mostly sane/level headed/completely rational individuals. It is made up of many rational, responsible and well intended people and a whole lot of mentally and emotionally challenged people. If you research mental health you will see that people with emotional/mental issues don't always make the best assumptions when faced with such examples in the media. 

[Nolder]

@ASG: I'm sorry but I just don't agree. I don't think media is either a cause or a symptom of anything wrong with our society. And furthermore I don't think I buy into objectification theory. It takes a massive amount of outright propaganda to get soldiers to dehumanize the enemy enough to be able to shoot them in a war. The level of direct propaganda to make the public at large view anyone as just a sexual object just doesn't exist. You can argue that it's "all around" in media but that, at best, is subtle propaganda directed at your sub conscious not direct propaganda which is what it would take to achieve something like that. So yeah my feeling is media is entertainment and art, nothing more.

 

 

@Gudrean: There is no such thing as "emotionally challenged". It seems to be slang for people with mental disorders. Or at least that's all I could figure from several google searches.

[WildTaltos]

 

However, I do think they contribute to the violent nature of our society by normalizing it.

I'm afraid there is absolutely no proof that supports your point on this.

Im nt sayin I agre with thes articls, onl so far as taht media violnce dos normalise at lest seing violenc, but thes aer few scholarly artcles that advocat taht violnce in media dos promtoe violence and normlisatin of it in society. I hoep you can see thm, Im bouncin thruogh my brothre's onlien university database acess to get soem of the ful texts, othrewis ther wil onl be abstrct availble

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/124/5/1495.full

 

http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/108/5/1222.full.pdf+html

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22481072

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19016226

 

these aer just few at any raet of countles studis conductd taht find link to childrn at leas bein influencd by vilence in media (not so mch on adults whch maeks sens, they brains arnt deloping nymore). Thers lot of studis taht also rech oposite conclusins or say taht while media is factr, ther aer more importnt others as wel, etc., but my point is taht declaring there is absolutly no prof or evidnce in suport of what ASG said abuot normalisation leadin to violent behaviur is bunk. 

 

Personlly I can seomwhat believ that media violnce cuold posibly contibute to anti socil and agresive behaviour in regrds to childrn if propr measuers arent taken by parnts to educat thm taht this is fantsy or limit their exposuer, becuse, as a fathre, I kno my son is very suscptible to new ideas an imitatin behviors etc., and it generl rule in my comunity to baerly alow any video gaem, televisin, or internt acess to our children untl a certin age, becuse we understnd its highly influential (we dont do it becuse of concrn for violenc but concren for othre ideas liek promotin of materilism and consumrism, etc.). Howevr, Iv only dabled in these studis so it wuold taek alot more tiem for me to be convincd of anythin in regrds to incresin violence an fear and pesissim, etc., as result of fictional violnce in media, but Im wiling to say ther are probaly othre factors involvde, not least of which genetic dispositins for behaviur.

 

For exampl, I wuold say Im pretty violnt person becuse of events in my childhod - I hd extremly physicaly and verbaly abusiv father besids taht shoutin and suden violence is normal behviour in my family to omunicate it sems, so that exposuer has violenc prety embeded in my charactr, but since I haev alwys been prety sensitve and I can be empathetic at tiems, ths prevnts me from bein violnt to my own son or vioelnt to women, when if th vioelnce I ws seing al around ws onl factor at work in formin me, I shuold hav turnd out just liek my father, abusiv to childrn and to women. It is not an extremly good case study becuse Im talkin abuot actul real violnce bein exposd to, not thruogh a screen, but Im usin as exmple as taht one eternal stimuli, in ths caes witnesing violnce, is probaly only piec of the puzzle, and othre thngs shuold be considerd liek parents and peer interction, as soem of thos articls sugest, i.e. incresingly iresponsible and unintractive parents bein a problm too.

[AesSedaiGuy]

@ASG: I'm sorry but I just don't agree. I don't think media is either a cause or a symptom of anything wrong with our society. And furthermore I don't think I buy into objectification theory. It takes a massive amount of outright propaganda to get soldiers to dehumanize the enemy enough to be able to shoot them in a war. The level of direct propaganda to make the public at large view anyone as just a sexual object just doesn't exist. You can argue that it's "all around" in media but that, at best, is subtle propaganda directed at your sub conscious not direct propaganda which is what it would take to achieve something like that. So yeah my feeling is media is entertainment and art, nothing more.

 

 

@Gudrean: There is no such thing as "emotionally challenged". It seems to be slang for people with mental disorders. Or at least that's all I could figure from several google searches.

I think there is merit in your statement Nolder. I don't agree 100%, obviously, but there is merit. I also am not saying media, games, etc cause people to run out and dehumanize fellow humans, I think for the most part they are what they are, kind of as you alluded to with your last line. I just think the fact that it exists is also a form of objectification or denigration. I'm not sure if I'm making sense what I want to say.

[WildTaltos]

@ASG: I'm sorry but I just don't agree. I don't think media is either a cause or a symptom of anything wrong with our society. And furthermore I don't think I buy into objectification theory. It takes a massive amount of outright propaganda to get soldiers to dehumanize the enemy enough to be able to shoot them in a war. The level of direct propaganda to make the public at large view anyone as just a sexual object just doesn't exist. You can argue that it's "all around" in media but that, at best, is subtle propaganda directed at your sub conscious not direct propaganda which is what it would take to achieve something like that. So yeah my feeling is media is entertainment and art, nothing more.

 

 

@Gudrean: There is no such thing as "emotionally challenged". It seems to be slang for people with mental disorders. Or at least that's all I could figure from several google searches.

To firs part, Im prety suer he is talkin abuot childrn exposuer, not influencin completly formd adults, taht is th only rel dangre media and its mesages presnts to anyoen, to childrn. se my othre post.

 

To secnd part, emotionly chalenged usuly refres to thos on autism spectrum, at lest how ive herd it used and sen in the literature, and whiel low functining autism cn be considered mental disordre becuse of impairmnt to intellect, high-functining presnts litle othre impairmnts to mental facultis besids the understnding and utilisation of emotions and therfore potentialy handicaping how thir abilty to perform as normal social beings. Grnted, thye are al sources of soem diference in th brain an hence mind, mental, but emotionly challnged wuold be specific word for thos sorts of disordres whiel strictly mentally-chalenged sugests more a problm with a persons own emotins, such as bipolar or bordrline or clinicl depreseion, or psychoses, such as schizophrenia, or retrdation, etc.

[Nolder]

Yeah I should amend my statement. Media can have a negative effect on children and the mentally handicapped definitely. Their brains aren't able to process the information like normal adults would. 

[Elgee]

Remember to keep it polite, people.

[Moon Sedai]

Female complicity is an interesting subject. Had i, as a child, heard my hero singers use lyrics like "Hit me one more time" or "I wanna be a victim" it would have told me "It's okay to want to be abused and mistreated!" And i would have remained in a VERY BAD situation because of it.  

I suffer from some mental health issues, but as far as violence against me is concerned, I've been pretty straight and level headed. 

I'm looking solely at the content of lyrics/videos/whatever, not the personal lives of the musicians.

 

As far as Psycho, i used that as opposed to a number of other slasher flicks because it was an earlier example of one. nothing on these lists/examples are being singled out. 

 

Essentially, music, television, movies, books, magazines, video games (Which I am not getting into for this discussion because I actually wrote some Master's Level research on the subject and I would bore the pants off of most people sharing it) are influential in our lives. 

I'm not saying that watching Looney Tunes made me want to drop an anvil on my brother's head or listening to 'Gangsta Rap" makes me want to go and pop a cap up in the #$@ of someone who angered me. 

 

I'm saying that the prevalence of the themes of violence against women (Violence/crimes against men are a different subject here all together) make it EASIER to ignore Violence and domestic crimes. We think, "Oh, that only happens in Movie/music/film/game/stories/in the past" and forget that people ACTUALLY DO GET ABUSED/assaulted. 

We become innundated with imagery of violence and become immune to it. 
We think that domestic violence is a thing of the 1950s, but it happens EVERY DAY in america. 

 

Not just partners beating partners. 

Partners rape partners. 

 

Media puts ideas in our minds. Star Trek (and other sci fi programs) actually has influenced the scientific community in ways to research/develop new technologies. 

 

Songs make ideas stick around. The earliest known stories of Robin Hood, for example exist only in form of Song. Not written, but SUNG word. And now, we see Robin Hood's acts as heroic, even though essentially, he was a crook. 

 

So, when we sing or hear songs about someone who is threatening to slice some throats, smack a person up, or whatever, it puts the idea out there, in the heads of some people (Yes, Emotionally disturbed, in some cases, but not always) that on some subconscious level, this is considered an appropriate action. 

Lady Gaga, Paparazzi and Bad Romance videos show her going to extreme measures of violence to protect herself from terrible situations. 

Do I condone it? no.

They show unhealthy ways to escape bad situations. (the same with the Dixie Chicks "goodbye earl" and Martina McBride "Independence day") 

 

There is this idea that the only way one can react to violence is with violence.Women kill their attackers. Women do things just as horrible as the violence done to them because violence is all they know. 

These ideas give us unhealthy attitudes. 

 

Women watching these videos who are in violent situations may not know what or where or to whom they can turn for help. 
Because if you are being victimized, it can be next to impossible to admit it to your family and friends, even if they know about it.

[Moon Sedai]

I'll broach the topic of Television probably tomorrow. 

[Nolder]

I'm confused. Are you saying that music influences an individual to stay in an abusive relationship or that it influences people who witness the abuse of someone else to overlook it?

[Moon Sedai]

I'm saying it could. 

not that it does, but it could. 

[Nolder]

Oh ok.

[AesSedaiGuy]

Moon, if I understand correctly, I agree, you are saying the fact that it exists contributes to the desensitization of how society views women and violence against women. Correct?

 

That is a much better way of getting at the point I was attempting to make, I think. You, obviously, touched on a broader subject and clarified your position and opinion better. But I think what I was trying to say is a part of your statement.

 

@Talt and Nolder ... Yes, when talking about the actual effects/influence of games, children would be more vulnerable or influenced, or rather young children at least. As far as desensitization or the role of violence in society, I was not limiting it only to children, although the effects on children would contribute or illustrate the other point.

[Moon Sedai]

That's it exactly, ASG..

[Moon Sedai]

Now for VaW in Television. 

 

Television examples of VaW:
Dexter: Rita, the (now late) wife of the serial killer, was abused and attacked by her first husband. Season 5’s secondary protagonist Lumen Pierce, was kidnapped, raped, and tortured by the primary antagonist with the intent of being murdered. She joins Dexter on a
vengeful rampage of murdering her attackers, leaving to return to a normal life once the primary antagonist is killed.

The Sopranos- beatings, violence, murder, rape. 
 

The "Cop Genre"- frequently include episodes involving female victims. 

What place does VaW have in Television? Do we see systematic abuse of women in TV like we see in videogames, music videos, and film?

 

again, my list is not all inclusive. 

 

[Starrik]

Now for VaW in Television. 

 

Television examples of VaW:

Dexter: Rita, the (now late) wife of the serial killer, was abused and attacked by her first husband. Season 5’s secondary protagonist Lumen Pierce, was kidnapped, raped, and tortured by the primary antagonist with the intent of being murdered. She joins Dexter on a

vengeful rampage of murdering her attackers, leaving to return to a normal life once the primary antagonist is killed.

 

The Sopranos- beatings, violence, murder, rape. 

 

The "Cop Genre"- frequently include episodes involving female victims. 

 

What place does VaW have in Television? Do we see systematic abuse of women in TV like we see in videogames, music videos, and film?

 

again, my list is not all inclusive. 

 

 

The cop genre has episodes involving victims. That's the whole premise of the genre, however it is quite often that there is a male perpetrator and a female victim.

I just wanted to say that personally I am desenitised to violence against women by saturation of pro-women ideals in the media. I'm not saying that there shouldn't be a push to end domestic violence, rape, etc, it's just the vast quantity makes me stop noticing these campaigns and negates their effectivity.

[Gudrean]

I find it interesting and yet disturbing how many males, through-out all these threads have had a negative position towards these conversations. If you have never been a victim, of any kind of violence, in your current lifetime, you have no idea the fear a lot of women live in, not just here in the states, but especially in the rest of the world. I think the responses have proven the point that our saturation of VaW in the media has most definitely made it less apparent or less "violent" in the eyes of society, or at least the eyes of some of our society.  

[AesSedaiGuy]

Now for VaW in Television. 

 

Television examples of VaW:Dexter: Rita, the (now late) wife of the serial killer, was abused and attacked by her first husband. Season 5’s secondary protagonist Lumen Pierce, was kidnapped, raped, and tortured by the primary antagonist with the intent of being murdered. She joins Dexter on a

vengeful rampage of murdering her attackers, leaving to return to a normal life once the primary antagonist is killed.The Sopranos- beatings, violence, murder, rape. 

 

The "Cop Genre"- frequently include episodes involving female victims. 

What place does VaW have in Television? Do we see systematic abuse of women in TV like we see in videogames, music videos, and film?

 

again, my list is not all inclusive. 

 

 

OK, this brings up a question ... All these shows/genre are violent, period. Are you saying the violence depicted of the women on the show is worse than the men? Are women more likely to be portrayed as victims of violence on these shows? And if so, aren't women more likely to be victims of violence in RL, therefore if these shows were a reflection, or (and this may be too idealistic) bringing awareness to that fact, wouldn't that be realistic and appropriate?

 

I guess I need a primer/summary of the effect or magnitude or frequency of violence against women vs violence in general? Are we saying one is worse, they why? Are we saying one is more likely to be portrayed? If the latter question is, I don't see that with these examples. I think they show violence, and are just as likely to have male victims as female victims, or at least as a reflection of RL. OR are we saying the way violence against women is portrayed is different? If this is what we are focusing on, I would like more examples to support your point. :-) (not antagonistic, just clarifying)

[Tsukibana]

Gudrean, I would disagree... what I believe, and perhaps I am wrong, is that Starrik feels that too much attention, coupled with double standards, can negate

a person's position. In our society, for example, we want to place SO MUCH emphasis on racial equality - it's every where you look... yet no white man in the US can get on stage

and make stereotypical jokes about blacks, asians, or hispanics... yet, they (the minority comedians) can joke about and make fun of white people every

time and nothing is said (don't believe me, watch a BET comedy special sometime). Another example - the law says that a drunk woman can NOT give informed

consent to have sex while she's inebriated. Guess what?? Doesn't apply to men. If both parties are drunk, and she cries rape, he goes to prison, period. Even

though it has been proven that a man can be raped, no court EVER assumes the man in this case might be the vicitim.

[AesSedaiGuy]

I find it interesting and yet disturbing how many males, through-out all these threads have had a negative position towards these conversations. If you have never been a victim, of any kind of violence, in your current lifetime, you have no idea the fear a lot of women live in, not just here in the states, but especially in the rest of the world. I think the responses have proven the point that our saturation of VaW in the media has most definitely made it less apparent or less "violent" in the eyes of society, or at least the eyes of some of our society.

Would you mind giving an example? I believe I actually agree, or at least I see your point. But again, is this a specific issue with VAW, or just violence in general. From what I gather from this and conversations with female friends and colleagues, apart from the fact that women are more likely to be victims of violence in RL, the issue is women's approach or response to violence is very different from men. Right or wrong, good or bad, I am not making a judgment call, I am attempting to find the specific point. I am not saying woman are more emotional or other stereotypical BS, instead I am saying, it seems to me that the portrayal of violence against women gets a stronger or more negative response from a woman than from a man.

 

At my job I saw a similar thing when there was a problem with a lock on a door not working. The male managers felt that while it should be fixed, because it should work, the female managers were much more concerned about it, to the point, they wanted an alternative security plan in place until it could be fixed. To us,(the male managers) we thought we were in a very safe and secure business park, and a public building where the front door was already always unlocked, we didnt see the side door that opened on a broad and well lit parking lot not being locked either as an immediate cause of alarm. It opened into a common area, not a hallway or office, so we didnt see it differently. However, based on your response Gudrean, you have me thinking the issue is really HOW and WHY women respond to violence. If that is the case, then it sheds a different light on the media questions, specifically TV. Is it that because women are more likely to be victims of violence they respond more negative and perhaps "sympathetic" to victims of violence on TV, especially when they are women? I am not saying this is wrong or bad, but it would explain why your response seems to intimate that the men who have responded on here don't seem to "get it". And I am not defending, defensive or any way antagonistic, I am trying to get to the meat of the issue.