Economic Stagnation?

[Suttree]

It's actually true. They came close to uniting the land, and did their best to try to prod the various cultures of Randland towards progress, but largely because their success was only possible through manipulation, they were never able to pull it off, and much of the progress they did foster was all too easily undermined for the same reason. Sure, the manipulations of the Shadow played their role, but they would never have been able to be as successful in undermining the good works of the Aes Sedai if the Aes Sedai were able to be open and gain overt consensus.

 

You toss aside the Trolloc Wars which lasted some 350 years as if it is an after thought with AS manipulations being the main cause. The facts are plain, they united the land and fostered significant rebuilding and cultural growth. The Shadow was the one who tore that down. There is not a shred of evidence that states the recovery stalled or was stunted due to AS manipulations. Would love to see what you are basing these statements on?

actually pre Hawkwing I think the AS manipulating reached its peak and spread, most notable being cairhein. Then Hawkwing came and 'cut their scheming short'

 

We were discussing the Compact and AS efforts just before the Trolloc Wars put an end to progress. Not sure what Hawkwing has to do with that? Nevertheless that situation was largely the work of one Amrylin. Important to note that even during some of the worst times Hawkwing had AS advisors and they played singnificant roles in governing. It wasnt until Ishy came along and whispered in his ear that things went really really bad.

Edited June 3, 2012 by Suttree

[Thrasymachus]

Yes, and if the Shadow hadn't come along and mucked things up, the Aes Sedai would likely have pulled themselves out of their public relations hole, and I agree that they nearly did so twice, first in the Compact, and second through cooperation with Hawkwing's early empire. My point is that they have a public relations hole to climb out of in the first place. I'm not some Tower hater who thinks the Aes Sedai suck in general. I'm actually rather impressed with the progress they have been able to achieve, limited as they are. Don't underestimate the power of the Breaking in making a general distrust of channelers very deeply ingrained. It lasted for 300 years, and reduced the population from what would have been at least 5 billion people at the end of the War of Power to no more than a billion, even after the whole 3000 years of relative peace of the 3rd Age. No war or plague before or since has ever been so fatal for humanity. Channelers rearranged continents, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if more than about 500 million people overall survived the Breaking.

[LeeM.Erickson]

Humans and especially societies are normaly quite passive unless there are severe circumstances which forces them into action, the french revoultion didn't happen because the people wanted to be treated equally, it happend because the elites couldn't supply them with enough ressources to provide for their families. Well, it was more complex than that but in the end the people were hungry so they wanted change.

In most of Randland the pepole didn't starve or were particularly oppressed so there was no need to risk your life in going against the establishment. In some nations life was better than in others but overall bearable. And in many cases you could improve your life situation, become a rich merchant if you did it right.

 

They should have just eaten something else. Like, I dunno, cake, or something.

[avernite]

Yes, and if the Shadow hadn't come along and mucked things up, the Aes Sedai would likely have pulled themselves out of their public relations hole, and I agree that they nearly did so twice, first in the Compact, and second through cooperation with Hawkwing's early empire. My point is that they have a public relations hole to climb out of in the first place. I'm not some Tower hater who thinks the Aes Sedai suck in general. I'm actually rather impressed with the progress they have been able to achieve, limited as they are. Don't underestimate the power of the Breaking in making a general distrust of channelers very deeply ingrained. It lasted for 300 years, and reduced the population from what would have been at least 5 billion people at the end of the War of Power to no more than a billion, even after the whole 3000 years of relative peace of the 3rd Age. No war or plague before or since has ever been so fatal for humanity. Channelers rearranged continents, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if more than about 500 million people overall survived the Breaking.

 

What evidence do we have for a 'public relations hole' before the trolloc wars? Aes Sedai ruled, Aes Sedai approved monarchs, Aes Sedai organised the Compact... And, from what we know, Manetheren's people gladly fought for their Aes Sedai queen.

[Durinax]

Yes, and if the Shadow hadn't come along and mucked things up, the Aes Sedai would likely have pulled themselves out of their public relations hole, and I agree that they nearly did so twice, first in the Compact, and second through cooperation with Hawkwing's early empire. My point is that they have a public relations hole to climb out of in the first place. I'm not some Tower hater who thinks the Aes Sedai suck in general. I'm actually rather impressed with the progress they have been able to achieve, limited as they are. Don't underestimate the power of the Breaking in making a general distrust of channelers very deeply ingrained. It lasted for 300 years, and reduced the population from what would have been at least 5 billion people at the end of the War of Power to no more than a billion, even after the whole 3000 years of relative peace of the 3rd Age. No war or plague before or since has ever been so fatal for humanity. Channelers rearranged continents, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if more than about 500 million people overall survived the Breaking.

 

What evidence do we have for a 'public relations hole' before the trolloc wars? Aes Sedai ruled, Aes Sedai approved monarchs, Aes Sedai organised the Compact... And, from what we know, Manetheren's people gladly fought for their Aes Sedai queen.

I would argue that they fought more for their King

[Suttree]

Yes, and if the Shadow hadn't come along and mucked things up, the Aes Sedai would likely have pulled themselves out of their public relations hole, and I agree that they nearly did so twice, first in the Compact, and second through cooperation with Hawkwing's early empire. My point is that they have a public relations hole to climb out of in the first place. I'm not some Tower hater who thinks the Aes Sedai suck in general. I'm actually rather impressed with the progress they have been able to achieve, limited as they are. Don't underestimate the power of the Breaking in making a general distrust of channelers very deeply ingrained. It lasted for 300 years, and reduced the population from what would have been at least 5 billion people at the end of the War of Power to no more than a billion, even after the whole 3000 years of relative peace of the 3rd Age. No war or plague before or since has ever been so fatal for humanity. Channelers rearranged continents, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if more than about 500 million people overall survived the Breaking.

 

What evidence do we have for a 'public relations hole' before the trolloc wars? Aes Sedai ruled, Aes Sedai approved monarchs, Aes Sedai organised the Compact... And, from what we know, Manetheren's people gladly fought for their Aes Sedai queen.

I would argue that they fought more for their King

 

Carai an Ellisande! Al Ellisande!

Edited June 3, 2012 by Suttree

[Barid Bel Medar]

Or, you know, fought to stop their children being eaten by Trollocs.

 

 

Some people disliked the Aes Sedai, others loved them. Still others didn't really care.

 

The Aes Sedai have been on a steady decline since the Breaking, fluctuations in influence happened at various points in time. However, it has only been perhaps in the last 100 or so years where the Tower has truly lost significant power.

[Lacanos]

Yes, and if the Shadow hadn't come along and mucked things up, the Aes Sedai would likely have pulled themselves out of their public relations hole, and I agree that they nearly did so twice, first in the Compact, and second through cooperation with Hawkwing's early empire. My point is that they have a public relations hole to climb out of in the first place. I'm not some Tower hater who thinks the Aes Sedai suck in general. I'm actually rather impressed with the progress they have been able to achieve, limited as they are. Don't underestimate the power of the Breaking in making a general distrust of channelers very deeply ingrained. It lasted for 300 years, and reduced the population from what would have been at least 5 billion people at the end of the War of Power to no more than a billion, even after the whole 3000 years of relative peace of the 3rd Age. No war or plague before or since has ever been so fatal for humanity. Channelers rearranged continents, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if more than about 500 million people overall survived the Breaking.

 

What evidence do we have for a 'public relations hole' before the trolloc wars? Aes Sedai ruled, Aes Sedai approved monarchs, Aes Sedai organised the Compact... And, from what we know, Manetheren's people gladly fought for their Aes Sedai queen.

I would argue that they fought more for their King

 

Why would you argue this? Yay for sweeping assertions without evidence.

Even if they fought "for their King", which the evidence already given makes me entirely sure they didn't, taking your argument at its strongest, they therefore approved of their King. Which means they didn't mind his choice of wife, and probably liked her.

If the King was seen as manipulated by a devious Aes Sedai Queen, then the people wouldn't have fought for him.

[muddasssir]

Aes Sedai are far from the most powerful political force, that force, as always, lies with the people.

 

I don't quite get this? I understand the underlying point about people but AS have been the undisputed most powerful political force in Randland for 3,000 years. That is a fact.

Aes Sedai are far from the most powerful political force, that force, as always, lies with the people.

 

I don't quite get this? I understand the underlying point about people but AS have been the undisputed most powerful political force in Randland for 3,000 years. That is a fact.

 

How many time do you have to say that and on how many threads. Com on sutt ease up my man.

[Suttree]

Aes Sedai are far from the most powerful political force, that force, as always, lies with the people.

 

I don't quite get this? I understand the underlying point about people but AS have been the undisputed most powerful political force in Randland for 3,000 years. That is a fact.

Aes Sedai are far from the most powerful political force, that force, as always, lies with the people.

 

I don't quite get this? I understand the underlying point about people but AS have been the undisputed most powerful political force in Randland for 3,000 years. That is a fact.

 

How many time do you have to say that and on how many threads. Com on sutt ease up my man.

 

As many times as people continue to get it wrong?

 

BTW I have said they have been the main force against the light many times. Not sure when I have ever brought up the political side?

Edited June 4, 2012 by Suttree

[Maleshub]

Yes, and if the Shadow hadn't come along and mucked things up, the Aes Sedai would likely have pulled themselves out of their public relations hole, and I agree that they nearly did so twice, first in the Compact, and second through cooperation with Hawkwing's early empire. My point is that they have a public relations hole to climb out of in the first place. I'm not some Tower hater who thinks the Aes Sedai suck in general. I'm actually rather impressed with the progress they have been able to achieve, limited as they are. Don't underestimate the power of the Breaking in making a general distrust of channelers very deeply ingrained. It lasted for 300 years, and reduced the population from what would have been at least 5 billion people at the end of the War of Power to no more than a billion, even after the whole 3000 years of relative peace of the 3rd Age. No war or plague before or since has ever been so fatal for humanity. Channelers rearranged continents, for crying out loud. I'd be surprised if more than about 500 million people overall survived the Breaking.

 

But wouldn't civilization know that female channelers are the ones that saved them from the madness of the tainted males? Again, I'll say this and know that it sounds redundant since it is the 3rd time I posted it: there is a balance between fear and respect. This balance ensured the continuity of the WT's role in Randland. Lan in Canluum in NS thought on it (sorry I don't have the quote right now; but I'll dig it up later if necessary).

[1Brotherbill]

No organized school system.

 

No organized religion.

 

Massive war every hundred years or so.

 

Constant threat of the shadow taking over.

 

Kind of hard to develop an IPod with those things hanging over your every day life.

[RandA lThor]

yet new inventions are still coming in places like Cairhein

[SuperFade]

No organized school system.

 

No organized religion.

 

Massive war every hundred years or so.

 

Constant threat of the shadow taking over.

 

Kind of hard to develop an IPod with those things hanging over your every day life.

 

I think the point about religion is particularly important. It always struck me as incredibly odd that there was no organized religion in the WoTverse, particularly when 99% of everyone appears to believe in the same creator deity.

[Suttree]

No organized school system.

 

No organized religion.

 

Massive war every hundred years or so.

 

Constant threat of the shadow taking over.

 

Kind of hard to develop an IPod with those things hanging over your every day life.

 

I think the point about religion is particularly important. It always struck me as incredibly odd that there was no organized religion in the WoTverse, particularly when 99% of everyone appears to believe in the same creator deity.

 

Not sure if you have ever seen this?

 

 

 

Question

 

Are there any religions in the world of the Wheel of Time?

Robert Jordan

 

No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent, but...

QUESTION

 

[interrupts] Oh, is that a spoiler?? No, no!

ROBERT JORDAN

 

No, that's not for the Wheel of Time at all, and may change somewhat, as these things do. But the reason is this: I've always believed that our religious rituals our attendance at temples, or churches, or whatever is, in part, a reaffirmation of our faith, and a reaffirmation of our belief, a strengthening of our belief in something that we cannot see. And we do these things in order to strengthen our belief in what we cannot see. God, Allah, whatever...but, in this world, it is a world that...as if we had...prophets walking around...performing miracles. The One Power can be channeled. Occasionally men show up channeling the One Power; the Aes Sedai have been there for 3000 years.

QUESTION

 

But the Creator does not interfere!

ROBERT JORDAN

 

The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.

QUESTION

 

Of the unseen.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Of the unseen. As far as it is believed, of the existence of the Creator: Here is the One Power. Here is evidence of everything we believe. There is therefore no need for anyone to undergo rituals to reaffirm or strengthen their belief because it is manifest every day. If we really had prophets walking among us, performing miracles and healing people and raising the dead—and this was a matter of every day that somebody might walk down the street and say 'In the name of...' and lay their hand on you. 'In the name of God be healed,' and your wounds are healed. Or, 'In the name of God rise up and walk,' and your dead brother, just died of cholera or whatever rises up and walks—I believe that organized religion would vanish within a generation, or at least become a fringe within a generation, because there would no longer be a need for most people to reaffirm their belief in God, or to strengthen their belief in God, or Allah, or whatever else their religious belief is. It would be manifest in every day life.

[1Brotherbill]

So Jordan intentionally put it in the books that way. Because he believed AS acted like Demigods. Which I can see his point. And the economic stagnation can probably be fixed on the AS as well. Why invent something when an AS can do it better in a few moments.

[SuperFade]

No organized school system.

 

No organized religion.

 

Massive war every hundred years or so.

 

Constant threat of the shadow taking over.

 

Kind of hard to develop an IPod with those things hanging over your every day life.

 

I think the point about religion is particularly important. It always struck me as incredibly odd that there was no organized religion in the WoTverse, particularly when 99% of everyone appears to believe in the same creator deity.

 

Not sure if you have ever seen this?

 

 

 

Question

 

Are there any religions in the world of the Wheel of Time?

Robert Jordan

 

No. No religions, no churches: that will change in the next set of books, not in this, but where religion becomes in some ways preeminent, but...

QUESTION

 

[interrupts] Oh, is that a spoiler?? No, no!

ROBERT JORDAN

 

No, that's not for the Wheel of Time at all, and may change somewhat, as these things do. But the reason is this: I've always believed that our religious rituals our attendance at temples, or churches, or whatever is, in part, a reaffirmation of our faith, and a reaffirmation of our belief, a strengthening of our belief in something that we cannot see. And we do these things in order to strengthen our belief in what we cannot see. God, Allah, whatever...but, in this world, it is a world that...as if we had...prophets walking around...performing miracles. The One Power can be channeled. Occasionally men show up channeling the One Power; the Aes Sedai have been there for 3000 years.

QUESTION

 

But the Creator does not interfere!

ROBERT JORDAN

 

The Creator does not interfere, but there is clear evidence of the theological doctrine.

QUESTION

 

Of the unseen.

ROBERT JORDAN

 

Of the unseen. As far as it is believed, of the existence of the Creator: Here is the One Power. Here is evidence of everything we believe. There is therefore no need for anyone to undergo rituals to reaffirm or strengthen their belief because it is manifest every day. If we really had prophets walking among us, performing miracles and healing people and raising the dead—and this was a matter of every day that somebody might walk down the street and say 'In the name of...' and lay their hand on you. 'In the name of God be healed,' and your wounds are healed. Or, 'In the name of God rise up and walk,' and your dead brother, just died of cholera or whatever rises up and walks—I believe that organized religion would vanish within a generation, or at least become a fringe within a generation, because there would no longer be a need for most people to reaffirm their belief in God, or to strengthen their belief in God, or Allah, or whatever else their religious belief is. It would be manifest in every day life.

 

I hadn't seen these quotes before, so thank you for those.

 

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree with Robert Jordan's views here. I think he's making the classic mistake of approaching ancient religion with a modern (and therefore far more secularised) mindset. Back then religion was far more real and central to modern life than it is today, and to people in the middle ages saints and prophets really did exist and miracles happened all the time. There are hundreds of documents and hagiographical works denoting various miracles and divine occurences, and many larger Churches had priests whose duty it was to investigate claims of miracles from the public. Faith was not 'something that cannot be seen', since medieval society already had tangible evidence of the divine (In their minds) with the relics of saints and holy artifacts.

 

We may look back and think, "Well obviously those 'miracles' didn't happen." But that's a modern mindset that's not really applicable to the superstitious and heavily religious society of the time period equivalent to that of the WoT.

[Kahsm]

We may look back and think, "Well obviously those 'miracles' didn't happen." But that's a modern mindset that's not really applicable to the superstitious and heavily religious society of the time period equivalent to that of the WoT.

 

Well yes, that's the classic "God of the gaps" argument. Where religion or faith fills in for our ignorance of how something happens or works. But that's not really true in WoT. They know how it works... it's the True Source, the wheel, threads, yadda yadda. It's visible, it's there, they can manipulate it. There's no greater mystery to their universe that requires "faith". At least none that they know of. Ignorance of ignorance is the real bliss.

 

Hilariously on topic, "Every time we discover a new transitional fossil, we create two more gaps in the evolutionary record".

 

That being said, they are extremely non-innovative with what they know. I mean, imagine all the things we'd be building/trying if we knew exactly how the mechanisms of the universe worked? But there are various reasons for that. Feudal system is probably a good one. Rich guys like status quo, and if poorer people invented a new process or tool to make more money, the rich land owners would just take it and keep them where they are, so why bother? And even Aes Sedai start in that "real world", so it permeates through society.

[fionwe1987]

I hadn't seen these quotes before, so thank you for those.

 

Unfortunately, I'm going to have to disagree with Robert Jordan's views here. I think he's making the classic mistake of approaching ancient religion with a modern (and therefore far more secularised) mindset. Back then religion was far more real and central to modern life than it is today, and to people in the middle ages saints and prophets really did exist and miracles happened all the time. There are hundreds of documents and hagiographical works denoting various miracles and divine occurences, and many larger Churches had priests whose duty it was to investigate claims of miracles from the public. Faith was not 'something that cannot be seen', since medieval society already had tangible evidence of the divine (In their minds) with the relics of saints and holy artifacts.

 

We may look back and think, "Well obviously those 'miracles' didn't happen." But that's a modern mindset that's not really applicable to the superstitious and heavily religious society of the time period equivalent to that of the WoT.

You forget that the WoT world of today is a descendent of the Age of Legends, which was highly advanced (more so than us). It was a time when Aes Sedai created living things like the Nym and Chora trees. They could travel into alternate dimensions, differnt worlds, see the future, see the past...

 

While the technology to do all this was lost, the knowledge that such wonders could be achieved by humans with no aid from "God" is still very present. Thus, while the characters occasionally pray to the Creator, there are no mystic rite, no temples and churches, nothing... becuase it is known that the Creator does not intervene, cannot intervene. They also know (well, the educated do) that the Creator created a morally neutral Pattern. While there is the "hope of salvation and rebirth", it has nothing to do with pleasing the Creator, and everything to do with doing what is actually right. We have seen no language on how to achieve salvation. Like Hinduism, that seems to be left to the individual.

[1Brotherbill]

See the future? See the past? You would think that they wouldn't have cracked the Dark Ones Prison if that was the case.

 

I don't think that the world was more advanced then ours.

 

I think it actually was our world. Just in a future time when we have Aes Sedai. Go ahead and laugh. But the descriptions of some of the Sangreal etc. Elayne found a statue of a hippy from woodstock. There are others as well. Planes and cars. Flashlights = Glowsticks. Tazers = Shock Lances. It's all there.

[Mr Ares]

See the future? See the past? You would think that they wouldn't have cracked the Dark Ones Prison if that was the case.

 

I don't think that the world was more advanced then ours.

 

I think it actually was our world. Just in a future time when we have Aes Sedai. Go ahead and laugh. But the descriptions of some of the Sangreal etc. Elayne found a statue of a hippy from woodstock. There are others as well. Planes and cars. Flashlights = Glowsticks. Tazers = Shock Lances. It's all there.

Our Age is most likely the First Age, the Age Before the Age of Legends - there is evidence of that in the books, such as Thom's stories. The AoL is more advanced that out own Age. Shock lances are directed energy weapons, not just tasers, their vehicles are more environmentally friendly than our own, and they can create a giant research station that floats in the air. That last without the OP.

[Lacanos]

See the future? See the past? You would think that they wouldn't have cracked the Dark Ones Prison if that was the case.

 

I don't think that the world was more advanced then ours.

 

I think it actually was our world. Just in a future time when we have Aes Sedai. Go ahead and laugh. But the descriptions of some of the Sangreal etc. Elayne found a statue of a hippy from woodstock. There are others as well. Planes and cars. Flashlights = Glowsticks. Tazers = Shock Lances. It's all there.

Our Age is most likely the First Age, the Age Before the Age of Legends - there is evidence of that in the books, such as Thom's stories. The AoL is more advanced that out own Age. Shock lances are directed energy weapons, not just tasers, their vehicles are more environmentally friendly than our own, and they can create a giant research station that floats in the air. That last without the OP.

It seems considerably more likely to me that our age is somewhere between the 5th and 7th ages, as we see in Aviendha's vision in Rhuidean a future of guns, cannons, steam-driven vehicles etc. If we take such a level of technology as the 4th age, which in our calendar would probably have been the late 17th century onwards, then following the logical technological progression from there, it makes sense. That is very much a convergent technological development system.

[Agitel]

See the future? See the past? You would think that they wouldn't have cracked the Dark Ones Prison if that was the case.

 

I don't think that the world was more advanced then ours.

 

I think it actually was our world. Just in a future time when we have Aes Sedai. Go ahead and laugh. But the descriptions of some of the Sangreal etc. Elayne found a statue of a hippy from woodstock. There are others as well. Planes and cars. Flashlights = Glowsticks. Tazers = Shock Lances. It's all there.

Our Age is most likely the First Age, the Age Before the Age of Legends - there is evidence of that in the books, such as Thom's stories. The AoL is more advanced that out own Age. Shock lances are directed energy weapons, not just tasers, their vehicles are more environmentally friendly than our own, and they can create a giant research station that floats in the air. That last without the OP.

It seems considerably more likely to me that our age is somewhere between the 5th and 7th ages, as we see in Aviendha's vision in Rhuidean a future of guns, cannons, steam-driven vehicles etc. If we take such a level of technology as the 4th age, which in our calendar would probably have been the late 17th century onwards, then following the logical technological progression from there, it makes sense. That is very much a convergent technological development system.

 

I've held our "Age" to be the 7th Age to help explain the existence of the portal stones. That may not be necessary, it could be the 1st. Anyway, an age isn't stagnant in its technological progress. It doesn't mean much that 4th age technology is equivalent to our 17th century technology in terms of placing the Age. I don't remember a single global empire existing a few hundred years ago. The way I see it there will be another global calamity. Our world-wide mythologies about massive floods and the story about the Tower of Babel (we're everyone's scattered and speaking different languages) seem to hint at that (remembering that Jordan's basic premise that history eventually becomes mythology and that he used mythology to inspire the Wheel of Time). It won't necessarily be a physical Breaking, just something that breaks apart civilization.

 

(Let me also clarify that I'm not saying every Age ends with a Breaking of some sort. I don't believe that.)

[bsmnt23]

Economic stagnation is really only the tip of the iceberg for Randland. Despite living in a land where Aes Sedai healers have made the kind of virulent plagues that ran rampant through our pre-industrial age and where people tend to live longer and reproduce more, Man is still in a constant retreat. The golden age of Randland was the forging of the Covenant of the Ten Nations, which were an attempt to bring back the incredible civilization of the previous Age. Population numbers aren't really necessary, but it is pretty obvious that Man had recovered from the absolute devastation of the Breaking into a society which could support grand cities with heroic architecture which more than implies a relatively significant technology base. This is all torn away by the Trolloc Wars, which lasted ~350 years and while the relative loss of life was far less than the War of Power and the Breaking, the nations of Man were broken. It would take centuries till civilization would be able to approach the benchmark set by the Ten Nation covenant, but even so the nations that emerged from the storm of the Wars and the recovery were all less than what had come before. Some cities destroyed in the Wars were never rebuilt and regions were abandoned by settlers because of the subsequent lack of trade.

Obviously the next pinnacle of civilization was the Empire forged by Hawkwing. The Hawkwing empire was able to unite the entire continent under one banner, an achievement unrivaled even by the Ten Nations. The situation extant when he rose to power was similar to the modern one, with small to medium nations dotting the land, they were relatively easy to face in succession and absorb for the truly exceptional Artur Hawkwing. But when he died his empire collapsed exactly like that of Alexander the Great causing the subsequent Hundred Year’s War to further fracture the land and peoples. What was left was even weaker than what was left after the Trolloc Wars, continuing the general trend of a collapsing civilization. Even more cities were abandoned or destroyed and never rebuilt, trade was dead for decades and what was called the height of military strategy was over. A population base that could logistically support multiple armies of a hundred thousand troops is again decimated until in the modern era an army of merely ten thousand soldiers is to be remarked at.

The modern era of Randland is still recovering from the Aiel War. Cairhien is effectively demolished as a functional nation. The populace working land for over half the country are no longer farming; without trade a nation has not very long to live. Presumably it is only the leftover profits from the now-defunct trade along the Silk Road that is still propping the country up when we follow Rand through the county. For Cairhien, the Aiel war was almost as destructive as the Hundred Years War. The destruction of Cairhien has repercussions for the other major nations as well: Tear is loaded with grain, but with money running out in Cairhien running out, no market for it. Andor, once one of the strongest nations, is struggling to hold on to their frontiers and Bayorlon, the center of commerce for the mines to the west is only nominally under Queen’s rule. Illian only holds a fraction of the land it once claimed only a few decades before the books start, and it is not alone. The borderlands still hold strong but the line they draw in the sand before the blight is getting mighty thin. The nations of Man are receding, but why? The population has come back from far worse to form great empires of vision and strength, why are they constantly throughout history rising only almost as far as the watermark of the last and then falling further? Answer: the entirety of Randland has been under the control of Ishamael since even start of the Breaking.

The existence of Ta’veren is the proof that some things the Pattern intended to happen. Hawkwing’s empire, for example, was going to happen weather he was born in a palace or a stall. The founding of the White Tower is another. The Pattern sets events in motion that must be involved in future events, but Ishamael is partially outside the Pattern for all this time. The influence he exerts over events is evident and insidious. He led the Trollocs that smashed civilization; a whisper in an imperial ear and a vast army was sent overseas, contributing even more to the decline of the population of Randland; lines altered in a prophecy could destroy the future of an entire race; a suggestion to a king, and a magnificent throne is created, the like no one has ever seen before, setting events further in motion to further degrade the nations of Randland. (Anyone else hear the chorus from “Sympathy for the Devil” by the Stones in their heads when Ishy is on stage? I hear he’s got the moves like Jaggar.)

Everything in the previous 3000 years in Randland was influenced by Ishamael to weaken resistance for the Last Battle. I saw the question raised earlier in the thread that Tar Valon and power of the Aes Sedai, both political and the True Power was influential in Randland as a unifying force. Partly false; it was indeed influential as a power in the region, but only as a tool for Ishamael to further weaken the other nations. Verin’s research and the POV scenes from members indicated the Black Ajah ran rampant throughout history. Corrupted Aes Sedai have always been the most versatile tools of the Dark One and seem to enjoy a slightly higher rank to that of the other mere darkfriends, even more so when no one knows about their true allegiances. The political power the White Tower has enjoyed since its inception (or rather since its consolidation, it took a while to get going) made it that much easier for Black Aes Sedai to work on Ishmael’s goals on the other nations.

Conclusion, because this is falling under the TLDR category even for me, is that the current situation in Randland is the direct result of 3000 years of planning and plotting and the intelligent direction of the very worst of the Dreadlords, the Betrayer of Hope himself, the Forsaken Ishamael. The economic stagnation is a result of that interference, not a cause in itself.

[jsbrads]

Massive war every hundred years or so.

 

besides for Brother Bill, I haven't really heard anybody address the fall in populations, population growth has always been tied to infant mortality, which may not rival today's but seems atleast as good as Western Europe in the 1700s (if not better, most people seem to have nice family sizes, the Grinwells, the Al'Vere, Aybara's, Cauthons etc.) also note they should have had these population growths for most of the last millenia where as we only had those growths for a few hundred years and we are at 7 billion.

 

Yes there were the Trolloc wars, but that was long ago, most wars were miniscule compared to the Aiel war, which did not seem to affect the population of Randland (even though it was a big war). You see it is the mechanization of war which increases the kill rate. Their level of technology should require somewhere about 25% of the population in food production, and with a monarchy employing an army it is often a small fraction of the total national population that goes to war (example Elayne's battle for the throne) and without bombing of cities and wholesale civilian slaughter, the worst war would only affect a percent or two of the population (the Aiel war is an exception to this rule, as many civilians were drafted or volunteered, but from the attitude and appearance of today that singular event was not very big (maybe as much as a few percent).

 

Where are the populations of the disappeared nations? Why haven't the current nations grown significantly since the Trolloc wars? Even Two Rivers should be bursting (they were mostly left alone). The only countries that should not have grown should have been the borderlands.

 

In today's day most AS intellects seem to be ivory tower intellects.

AS did not get involved in science projects, probably because they could use the power to solve common problems. I do think Saidin Saidar would hamper technological developement. I would not invest in a steam horse if I could just travel to Camlyn instantly and then to any city for a few gold marks (no need for guards, feed for horses, living it rough for days...)

 

Note: The attitude in the AoL did not create technology, the sho-wings, etc. worked on the standing wave created by the channelers, without the channelers, the infrastructure collapsed overnight.

 

Note: in our history the increase in education followed technology very slowly, why would you go to school if we havent discovered to teach the students yet