How does everyone think the DO will be defeated?

[wcbrooks]

Just hope its not Fain destroying the ring...oopppss I mean the Dark One haha

[lostcause]

I'll admit I've not read all responses.

 

I'm not too well read in the theories of WOT. But I've always had the idea in my head that since this is supposed to be a huge cycle of our own world, and in all our known history we do not know the use of the power, there has to be a vast period in the bigger cycle that doesn't involve the power at all.

 

My theory on how the story ends is, both the male and female part will be used to defeat and seal the Dark One in a much stronger prison. Both sides will be tainted, and thus the power will be pushed out of mankind over the coming generations, leading to the ages we know now, of technology and nothing else. Millinea ahead in the future, the seals will start to crumble, and the power will ooze into the history of man once more.

 

edit: typos

[Tyzack]

I'll admit I've not read all responses.

 

I'm not too well read in the theories of WOT. But I've always had the idea in my head that since this is supposed to be a huge cycle of our own world, and in all our known history we do not know the use of the power, there has to be a vast period in the bigger cycle that doesn't involve the power at all.

 

My theory on how the story ends is, both the male and female part will be used to defeat and seal the Dark One in a much stronger prison. Both sides will be tainted, and thus the power will be pushed out of mankind over the coming generations, leading to the ages we know now, of technology and nothing else. Millinea ahead in the future, the seals will start to crumble, and the power will ooze into the history of man once more.

 

edit: typos

 

I believe that most people discount the "End of Channeling" with the sealing of the bore because of Min's visions and Avi's experince in the ter'angreal in Rhudiedian.

[Suttree]

My theory on how the story ends is, both the male and female part will be used to defeat and seal the Dark One in a much stronger prison. Both sides will be tainted, and thus the power will be pushed out of mankind over the coming generations,

 

Rand has admitted LTT's plan was flawed and he can not try to do things the same way this time. Why just add Saidar and make the same mistake?

[jwood01]

Why did the pattern spin out 3 Ta'veren? I have always assumed that all 3 of them will be involved somehow in the "sealing" of the DO even though Mat and Perrin cannot channel. I just don't know how.

 

All three of them have power wrought weapons now. Perrin and Rand can access Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat has a Ter'angreal that repells channeling. Maybe these are pieces that will all be somehow used in the "sealing". Who knows.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Why did the pattern spin out 3 Ta'veren? I have always assumed that all 3 of them will be involved somehow in the "sealing" of the DO even though Mat and Perrin cannot channel. I just don't know how.

 

All three of them have power wrought weapons now. Perrin and Rand can access Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat has a Ter'angreal that repells channeling. Maybe these are pieces that will all be somehow used in the "sealing". Who knows.

 

I doubt it has anything to do with their power wrought weapons, but I agree the three ta'veren are likely to be the key somehow. Particularly their strange and mysterious link.

[Naggash]

Excuse me if this has already been posted, but I find this theory quite interesting and would like to share it if someone else hasn't already.

Callandor in defeating the DO.

When you've read it:

 

I still think the TP can't be used against its source, but I kind of like the TS thing. Could be :D

 

[Elan Tedronai]

Excuse me if this has already been posted, but I find this theory quite interesting and would like to share it if someone else hasn't already.

Callandor in defeating the DO.

When you've read it:

 

I still think the TP can't be used against its source, but I kind of like the TS thing. Could be :D

 

 

True source is the massive well that the one power comes from. and you cant use the true power against DO. Not in your face anyway

But why would Callandor be the good choice, isn't it known that it has no buffer.

 

callandor has no buffer when it's been chanelled by a man. In a circle of three with 2 men leading it has some sort of warding mechanism

[Naggash]

Excuse me if this has already been posted, but I find this theory quite interesting and would like to share it if someone else hasn't already.

Callandor in defeating the DO.

When you've read it:

 

I still think the TP can't be used against its source, but I kind of like the TS thing. Could be :D

 

 

True source is the massive well that the one power comes from. and you cant use the true power against DO. Not in your face anyway

Have you read my post at all?

I also think the TP can't be used against the DO.

And if you had read the theory, you would know that the author knows prefectly well what the TS is, as I do. But still he finds it possible that Callandor's flaw is of a more deep nature than we think, granting acces directly to the TS. It's as good a theory as any, better than most. Also note the ter'angreal hand point.

[Terez]

callandor has no buffer when it's been chanelled by a man. In a circle of three with 2 men leading it has some sort of warding mechanism

 

I'm not so sure this is true. Cadsuane's solution had all three aspects of the flaw in mind: 1) no buffer, 2) magnifies the taint, 3) causes wildness of the mind. The second and perhaps also the third were taken care of when the taint was cleansed, and any circle at all will take care of the buffer problem, since circles have natural buffers. The reason Cadsuane said it had to be a circle with two women is that a link of one man and one woman has to be led by a man, in which case you still have the wildness of the mind and taint magnification to deal with. With a woman in control, those problems go away. Without those problems, Rand could probably safely use it linked with one woman.

[Elan Tedronai]

callandor has no buffer when it's been chanelled by a man. In a circle of three with 2 men leading it has some sort of warding mechanism

 

I'm not so sure this is true. Cadsuane's solution had all three aspects of the flaw in mind: 1) no buffer, 2) magnifies the taint, 3) causes wildness of the mind. The second and perhaps also the third were taken care of when the taint was cleansed, and any circle at all will take care of the buffer problem, since circles have natural buffers. The reason Cadsuane said it had to be a circle with two women is that a link of one man and one woman has to be led by a man, in which case you still have the wildness of the mind and taint magnification to deal with. With a woman in control, those problems go away. Without those problems, Rand could probably safely use it linked with one woman.

 

callandor i think is simply not just a sangreal but it also has a hidden terangreal property. what ever lanfear wove to create the bore callandor will be used to unweave it and speed up and control the pattern at the rupture point.

 

But it's all guesses at this point

[Barid Bel Medar]

 

callandor i think is simply not just a sangreal but it also has a hidden terangreal property. what ever lanfear wove to create the bore callandor will be used to unweave it and speed up and control the pattern at the rupture point.

 

But it's all guesses at this point

 

Perhaps there is something to that. Callandor did apparently deflect balefire, could be some kind of "un-weaving" :shrug:

[Dagon Thyne]

The Saidin/Saidar together creating good seals is not gonna work. RJ has said already that it would not have worked the first time either, and both sides of the OP would have been tainted if the women had been involved.

 

 

I think that it will turn out that the DO is not a living, breathing physical being, but a spirit, the essence of pure evil. He needs a human body to use as his vessel, Moridin, as the Nae'blis, or maybe Fain, will serve that purpose. Rand will face off against the DO, in his human form and kill him. It will turn out that the DO can not survive in our word without a body and he will be destroyed completely, putting an end to all evil.

[Duskfire]

Why did the pattern spin out 3 Ta'veren? I have always assumed that all 3 of them will be involved somehow in the "sealing" of the DO even though Mat and Perrin cannot channel. I just don't know how.

 

All three of them have power wrought weapons now. Perrin and Rand can access Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat has a Ter'angreal that repells channeling. Maybe these are pieces that will all be somehow used in the "sealing". Who knows.

 

Completely agree. There is more to Mat then just being a great general, and more to Perrin then just being a wolfbrother. We have already seen with Perrin that his food isnt going bad, and its not as if ta`vereness has been known to negate the Dark Ones touch before. All those three are tied together more then just being friends, and the blurring colours have something to do with it.

[Vardar]

callandor has no buffer when it's been chanelled by a man. In a circle of three with 2 men leading it has some sort of warding mechanism

 

I'm not so sure this is true. Cadsuane's solution had all three aspects of the flaw in mind: 1) no buffer, 2) magnifies the taint, 3) causes wildness of the mind. The second and perhaps also the third were taken care of when the taint was cleansed, and any circle at all will take care of the buffer problem, since circles have natural buffers. The reason Cadsuane said it had to be a circle with two women is that a link of one man and one woman has to be led by a man, in which case you still have the wildness of the mind and taint magnification to deal with. With a woman in control, those problems go away. Without those problems, Rand could probably safely use it linked with one woman.

 

I never actually thought about that, and it makes perfect sense. Wonder if they'll touch upon it in the next book. I hope so.

[theblacksmith]

Why did the pattern spin out 3 Ta'veren? I have always assumed that all 3 of them will be involved somehow in the "sealing" of the DO even though Mat and Perrin cannot channel. I just don't know how.

 

All three of them have power wrought weapons now. Perrin and Rand can access Tel'aran'rhiod. Mat has a Ter'angreal that repells channeling. Maybe these are pieces that will all be somehow used in the "sealing". Who knows.

 

Completely agree. There is more to Mat then just being a great general, and more to Perrin then just being a wolfbrother. We have already seen with Perrin that his food isnt going bad, and its not as if ta`vereness has been known to negate the Dark Ones touch before. All those three are tied together more then just being friends, and the blurring colours have something to do with it.

 

I believe the other two (Mat and Perrin) have more to contribute but they have been monumental in their contributions thus far and have imo validated the need for (3) Tavereen to be "spit" out. In large part they are responsible for the largest, most capable forces at the Dragon's disposal. They have been consistently uniting when the DR sanity and actions were qustioned in large by society, and they have grown to once again fully trust their childhood companion the DR which I thing will be key on the FoM.

To illustrate take them form the equation and you have a very different scenario going into the LB...Rand has met the Seanchan in battle infrequently but enough to be viewed as an enemy. While Perrin and Mat have strong allies in this front which will be point of initiation of the needed alliance for the true battle. Perrin as brought Leaders of other countries to his cause without the attack and conquer mentality the DR was feared for, while Mat has not only one of the most well organized but armed forces in Rand Land at this time. Perrin taught Eqwene an invaluable lesson in time to save her life, Mat saved Moiraine, etc remove them and the future would look darker, but I do not believe they will be THE factor in the sealing process.

 

Their being Tavereen is already justified. Alot of the points submitted are so good I am without a doubt just happy I will have this book one day to enjoy, but I am still stuck on the Fain angle (which it is hard for me to say I still subscribe in) and what his actual role will be if not what was presented so many times. RJ developed him for a reason but what role will he play now that I cannot believe he will be used in the sealing?

[shortkut]

I wonder if fain will be involved with Mat in some way. Correct me if i'm wrong, but doesn't he still feels the pull of the dagger however faintly?

[randomh3r0]

I have to speculate that perhaps part of the defeat will come at the hands of Rand's new powers... not the OP or the TP, but his new abilities. (This thought requires an additional theory)

-When he uses the TP and exiles Cadsuane, he asks her if she believes that he could simply kill her by willing it so, and she does believe it.

-When he visits Egwene after being reforged, she mentions to someone (Siuan I believe) that she believed he could've broken free/left without using the power (rendering their shield useless).

-When in Arad Doman, he is able to accurately predict where the good sacks of grain are simply by pointing.

These and other instances lead me to believe that Rand now has control over the effects of being ta'veren. A quality that can randomly cause deaths or weddings, etc. If he's found a way to control this changing or readjusting in the pattern, he could feasably find a way to defeat or contain the DO using the pattern while others remake the DO's prison, or something to that extent.

I would've cited quotes if I had my books here :(

[Le Québecois]

i think fain is going to be there when rand seals the bore. His hate for Rand and the DO is so compelling to him he's gonna have to make a choice. Rand will lure him into shayol ghul itself and fain is gonna destroy the DO and take his place for another age to begin the cycle anew. He will lose is human form to become akin to the DO. A thing of hate and unnatural. Througout the series his deeds became more and more violent and unnatural. He says it himself that it's no hunt when you know where your victim will be he says it like he's got the means to kill him effortlessly, like he's alredy out of time. I think this evil is in humanity's background since always and will be there forever but balance is important and i think the WOT itself requires that when evil becomes too powerful another evil will rise to take his place. The DO feared Rand cause he thouht he wanted his place. When rand was mad he talked about being emotionless,cold unwavering in his crusade to kill. But now he's himself once again and will try to remake the prison of the DO as it was in the AOL. So that leaves fain-mordreth-no name to try to kill the one that made him what he is and ultimatetly to take his place and destroy all life. that is what fain craves for.

[tje]

Earlier in the post someone brought up the idea of Callandor being a sort of ter angreal. Could one of the flaws of Callandor be it acting similar to a mind trap? I don't mean that it is the exact same but rather it is something that acts similarly. They both are crystals, and both at some point must be taken to the Pit of Doom. I realize this is a rather weak connection.

[snooze1128]

Earlier in the post someone brought up the idea of Callandor being a sort of ter angreal. Could one of the flaws of Callandor be it acting similar to a mind trap? I don't mean that it is the exact same but rather it is something that acts similarly. They both are crystals, and both at some point must be taken to the Pit of Doom. I realize this is a rather weak connection.

 

I think you're onto something from the standpoint that the mindtraps really haven't played a significant role in the series, thus far. I mean, we know that whoever has the mindtrap basically has complete leverage over the "trapped" individual, and we've seen this as the "trapped" individuals might as well be under Compulsion via Moridin.

I definitely think the mindtrap will reemerge in the last book -- we still have yet to see what happens to a mindtrapped individual who decides to disobey his/her captor. Also, I'm seeing a lot of similarities between mindtraps and the neck bracelets (a'dam?) that the Seanchan force channelers to wear. I realize there are significant differences (i.e. neither exactly forces you to perform activities, but they end up facilitating specific actions by fear of pain and/or death), but it seems like this has been an emerging theme since, what -- the Great Hunt? -- where the neck bracelets are seen for the first time. There are now numerous ways an individual can force another to do one's bidding:

1. neck bracelet a la the Seanchan (spelling? :P)
   
2. mindtraps
   
3. straight-up compulsion
   
4. If I remember correctly, some of those oath rods (there's at least 2 that I can think of) basically ensure you act a particular way.
   

It's very possible that I'm completely off, but if you think about it, what's the "worst thing" that's happened to anyone on the Light as a result of these measures? Rand almost killing Min? I wanna see someting awesome in the last book, like Moridin mindtrapping Rand as a means to deal with Fain, or something of the sort...

[joeron bigelow]

The Saidin/Saidar together creating good seals is not gonna work. RJ has said already that it would not have worked the first time either, and both sides of the OP would have been tainted if the women had been involved.

 

 

I think that it will turn out that the DO is not a living, breathing physical being, but a spirit, the essence of pure evil. He needs a human body to use as his vessel, Moridin, as the Nae'blis, or maybe Fain, will serve that purpose. Rand will face off against the DO, in his human form and kill him. It will turn out that the DO can not survive in our word without a body and he will be destroyed completely, putting an end to all evil.

 

But hasn't fantasy fiction always taught us - there can never be a world without evil? there is always good if there is bad. Yin and Yang.

 

I agree that the DO is not a living being - but like Verin says - the battle will be fought in a different manner. I'm thinking Veins of Gold style rather than Swordmaster style. A lot of Rand talking to himself and reminding himself why he has to beat the DO, etc.

[FanoLan]

Earlier in the post someone brought up the idea of Callandor being a sort of ter angreal. Could one of the flaws of Callandor be it acting similar to a mind trap? I don't mean that it is the exact same but rather it is something that acts similarly. They both are crystals, and both at some point must be taken to the Pit of Doom. I realize this is a rather weak connection.

 

Maybe Callandor is actually a huge well for the TP. Rand Therin would have to fill it during a subterfuge of some sort before heading to Shayol Ghul but then he and his 'twain would be able to weave all three powers. Don't know how else Rand Therin would be able to use the TP against the DO but I think it will happen. The DO didn't manipulate him into using the TP for nothing, and if the DO had a chance at victory in doing so, balance would call for that action to create an opportunity for the Lighsiders to win this go-around as well, imo.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I have to speculate that perhaps part of the defeat will come at the hands of Rand's new powers... not the OP or the TP, but his new abilities. (This thought requires an additional theory)

-When he uses the TP and exiles Cadsuane, he asks her if she believes that he could simply kill her by willing it so, and she does believe it.

-When he visits Egwene after being reforged, she mentions to someone (Siuan I believe) that she believed he could've broken free/left without using the power (rendering their shield useless).

-When in Arad Doman, he is able to accurately predict where the good sacks of grain are simply by pointing.

These and other instances lead me to believe that Rand now has control over the effects of being ta'veren. A quality that can randomly cause deaths or weddings, etc. If he's found a way to control this changing or readjusting in the pattern, he could feasably find a way to defeat or contain the DO using the pattern while others remake the DO's prison, or something to that extent.

I would've cited quotes if I had my books here :(

 

That's pretty much my take on things as well. Ta'veren not channelling will be the key to defeating the DO. It's the most rare ability there is. What I don't think however is that this power is new. All three ta'veren have learned to control the effect to some extent, though the Aes Sedai believe that to be impossible.

Pretty much since day one we were told how ta'veren were about balance, but that's just a false message we were meant to believe in my opinion. Ta'veren are just so rare no one knows all that much about them. When the effect is uncontrolled there may be a balance of good and bad, but we've seen many times how a ta'veren can control the effect if he puts his mind to it.

 

Also there is this strange connection between the three of them. That's more than a convenient way for them to peep on each other while they are having sex. There is a link somehow and that link will definitely play a vital role at some point.

[cyribis]

I'm of the opinion that the OP won't be used to seal the bore - I think it has to be something like the Song to heal a tear in the Pattern. Herid Fel's note to Rand stated that you needed "belief and order" after clearing away the rubble. That, to me, suggested something more than just a bunch of people flinging the OP around.