How does everyone think the DO will be defeated?

[thisguy]

Rand is going to stuff all the women who have nagged him since the beginning of the book into the bore and leave the DO to torment for eternity.

[Morsker]

I went with "other". I think healing Rand's wound will fix the hole in the prison good as new, following the Fisher King myth. The Seals have to be broken for the wound to be healable, and Rand has to go to the Pit of Doom for the connection to be strong enough, but other than that, Rand doesn't do anything except get healed. Nynaeve is leading the circle.

 

I'm also fond of Rand's wound being a Well of this amalgamated power, of the 2 evils and the 2 halves of the Power used to heal them. And Callandor's flaw lets a circle draw on that power, although probably killing Rand in the process. But I don't know if I can combine this with the healing theory, and I really like the healing theory.

[Matrim-Bloody-Cauthon]

Rand is going to stuff all the women who have nagged him since the beginning of the book into the bore and leave the DO to torment for eternity.

Lol. Perfect.

[FarShainMael]

I went with "other". I think healing Rand's wound will fix the hole in the prison good as new, following the Fisher King myth. The Seals have to be broken for the wound to be healable, and Rand has to go to the Pit of Doom for the connection to be strong enough, but other than that, Rand doesn't do anything except get healed. Nynaeve is leading the circle.

 

I'm also fond of Rand's wound being a Well of this amalgamated power, of the 2 evils and the 2 halves of the Power used to heal them. And Callandor's flaw lets a circle draw on that power, although probably killing Rand in the process. But I don't know if I can combine this with the healing theory, and I really like the healing theory.

 

Good catch!

I'm wondering if it will be Galad who heals Rand's wounds. Galad is an Arthurian 'perfect knight' like Sir Galahad, who was the legend's later version of Sir Percival, who healed the Fisher King.

[Zorlon]

Care Bear Stare.

 

There's been much discussion about about which works of fiction Jordan took the most inspiration from. The Lord of the Rings is an obvious and major one.

 

But I think there is one specific source, next to which everything else just helped add filler, and which is what lit the fire in his mind that forged The Wheel of Time's cosmology.

 

Care Bears II: A New Generation. After all, who was the big bad in Care Bears II? That's right, Dark Heart. Dark Heart.

 

Now I know what you're thinking, when it first occurred to me while reading EotW I also dismissed it as a passing fancy, but after reading for the upteenth time how the tinkers want their Song to make everything nice again I began to think there might be something to it. Afterall,maybe the world just needs something to bring back the spirit of goodness which would make things right again. But still, it's an extraordinary claim, and I couldn't be sure.

 

Then came TSR and the Guide, and their descriptions about how nice and sweet everyone was before the bore was drilled. Sounds like the DO likes making things gloomy, and making people grumpy.

 

Who else liked making gloom and grump? That's right, Dark Heart. Dark Heart

 

Now I don't how the Care Bear Stare wheel be WOTised. Perhaps Ogier and Tinkers singing together... but that doesn't quite seem fitting to me.

 

However, there's been a lot of talk of stasis boxes, and Sanderson's been tweeting about Chekhov's Gun...

 

Yes, I expect our heroes will discover a stasis box, sealed away early in the AoL, and filled with Care Bear like constructs. Perhaps they were made early in the age to set everything right, or perhaps they are from an even older age and after setting the second age right they chose to slumber in firmament for the moment they would be most needed. Either way, at the last moment when all seems lost and even the Dragon has been turned to the DO they will unleash the lovingest stare ever and the bore will be healed.

 

All you need is love.

 

Love is all you need.

 

And which hero will make this discovery, do you ask? Why, it's always a child who befriends the Care Bears, and why else would Olver have been tossed into the story?

 

Boom, it's Care Bears. It all fits.

[DrZippy]

Earlier in the post someone brought up the idea of Callandor being a sort of ter angreal. Could one of the flaws of Callandor be it acting similar to a mind trap? I don't mean that it is the exact same but rather it is something that acts similarly. They both are crystals, and both at some point must be taken to the Pit of Doom. I realize this is a rather weak connection.

I agree with this 100%. I think two bits from the books that I can remember support this. The first time Rand is holding Callandor in TDR, he describes fighting forces trying to drag his very being into the sword. I don't think that type of description is applied in the use of angreal or the CK. Also, there is a line of prophecy that goes something like "... and before the infinite void, all that he is can be siezed." To me, that suggests Rand's soul is going to play a huge role in sealing the Bore. Perhaps Callandor, with the blood of the Dragon having been spilled/smeared on it, is suspended over the Pit of Dhoom, similar to a mindtrap? Only instead of Callandor being a vessel of imprisonment, it's the tool that enables the sealing to take place?

 

Again, I think Callandor the tool that enables the sealing. Maybe instead of acting as a vessel for Rand's soul, it's a connection to TAR. Other people have suggested this, but I believe that the sealing of the Bore takes place in TAR, primarily for one reason:

 

IT ISN'T HERE. (tEotW)

In this scene, Rand is screaming "it must end!" And in response, he gets those three words. "Where?" Rand asks. And he isn't taken to SG, but to TAR, where he has interacted with Ishy in his dreams in that room with the twisting fireplace. TAR is a constant for all worlds of the Pattern -- sealing the DO there will seal him away everywhere.

 

Sidenote: If Callandor was made at the end of the AoL, and they were just manufacturing angreal, etc. at that point, why does there have to be only one Callandor? Couldn't Moridin, in his stock of items of power, have one as well? Wouldn't that make sense as to why Moggy and Lanfear have been held back? They could aid Moridin (who has their mindtraps) in wielding the 2nd Callandor. Both of those Forsaken will definitely be at SG, simply because Nyn and Moiraine will be there. Nyn and Moggy have history, so do Moirain and Lanfear; the dramatic aspect is just too perfect.

[Suttree]

I agree with this 100%. I think two bits from the books that I can remember support this. The first time Rand is holding Callandor in TDR, he describes fighting forces trying to drag his very being into the sword.

 

There was never anyting like that. It was just a description of him struggling with the power.

 

Sidenote: If Callandor was made at the end of the AoL, and they were just manufacturing angreal, etc. at that point, why does there have to be only one Callandor? Couldn't Moridin, in his stock of items of power, have one as well? Wouldn't that make sense as to why Moggy and Lanfear have been held back? They could aid Moridin (who has their mindtraps) in wielding the 2nd Callandor.

 

There was only one Callandor made and it is a manufacturing flaw which makes it dangerous. It was made around the time that the world was sliding into the breaking so the technology was not as good as it had been and it was one of the last sa'angreal made. Not to mention it would be pretty lame after all the build up and it being so central to prophecy if another one just popped up after not being forshadowed in the slightest.

 

There is the chance something in that flaw will leave Rand open to some sort of attack as the phrophecy suggests however.

[Dagon Thyne]

The DO can't be killed. He can only be resealed. Rand will awaken as the avatar of the creator and remake the prison in it's entirety.

[thisguy]

I agree with this 100%. I think two bits from the books that I can remember support this. The first time Rand is holding Callandor in TDR, he describes fighting forces trying to drag his very being into the sword.

 

There was never anyting like that. It was just a description of him struggling with the power.

 

Sidenote: If Callandor was made at the end of the AoL, and they were just manufacturing angreal, etc. at that point, why does there have to be only one Callandor? Couldn't Moridin, in his stock of items of power, have one as well? Wouldn't that make sense as to why Moggy and Lanfear have been held back? They could aid Moridin (who has their mindtraps) in wielding the 2nd Callandor.

 

There was only one Callandor made and it is a manufacturing flaw which makes it dangerous. It was made around the time that the world was sliding into the breaking so the technology was not as good as it had been and it was one of the last sa'angreal made. Not to mention it would be pretty lame after all the build up and it being so central to prophecy if another one just popped up after not being forshadowed in the slightest.

 

There is the chance something in that flaw will leave Rand open to some sort of attack as the phrophecy suggests however.

 

I agree. I don't think there will be anything major to pop up that doesn't have some foreshadowing. I also think the fact that Rand can pull too much power into himself may be all the flaw needed for Callandor to do its part. I think that might be how he either dies or burns out.

[Morsker]

I agree with this 100%. I think two bits from the books that I can remember support this. The first time Rand is holding Callandor in TDR, he describes fighting forces trying to drag his very being into the sword.

 

There was never anyting like that. It was just a description of him struggling with the power.

It's Rand's PoV, and he thinks he's only struggling with the power. But it says this:

 

"He fought the flow, wrestled with the implacable tide that threatened to carry him, all that was really him, into the sword with it." Leigh Butler's re-read has the whole paragraph.

 

In hindsight, we've been told that the TSR and TPOD PoVs of Rand with Callandor have evidence of the flaw, it inducing wildness of the mind and being difficult to control. Why can't the TDR scene also have evidence of the flaw? It even says "all that was really him", while the prophecy Min quotes says "all that he is".

[Suttree]

I agree with this 100%. I think two bits from the books that I can remember support this. The first time Rand is holding Callandor in TDR, he describes fighting forces trying to drag his very being into the sword.

 

There was never anyting like that. It was just a description of him struggling with the power.

It's Rand's PoV, and he thinks he's only struggling with the power. But it says this:

 

"He fought the flow, wrestled with the implacable tide that threatened to carry him, all that was really him, into the sword with it." Leigh Butler's re-read has the whole paragraph.

 

In hindsight, we've been told that the TSR and TPOD PoVs of Rand with Callandor have evidence of the flaw, it inducing wildness of the mind and being difficult to control. Why can't the TDR scene also have evidence of the flaw? It even says "all that was really him", while the prophecy Min quotes says "all that he is".

 

Good catch Morsk...

[DrZippy]

I agree with this 100%. I think two bits from the books that I can remember support this. The first time Rand is holding Callandor in TDR, he describes fighting forces trying to drag his very being into the sword.

 

There was never anyting like that. It was just a description of him struggling with the power.

It's Rand's PoV, and he thinks he's only struggling with the power. But it says this:

 

"He fought the flow, wrestled with the implacable tide that threatened to carry him, all that was really him, into the sword with it." Leigh Butler's re-read has the whole paragraph.

 

In hindsight, we've been told that the TSR and TPOD PoVs of Rand with Callandor have evidence of the flaw, it inducing wildness of the mind and being difficult to control. Why can't the TDR scene also have evidence of the flaw? It even says "all that was really him", while the prophecy Min quotes says "all that he is".

Heh, beat me to the quote, Morsker. Thanks for the backup.

[DrZippy]

Again, I think Callandor the tool that enables the sealing. Maybe instead of acting as a vessel for Rand's soul, it's a connection to TAR. Other people have suggested this, but I believe that the sealing of the Bore takes place in TAR, primarily for one reason:

 

IT ISN'T HERE. (tEotW)

In this scene, Rand is screaming "it must end!" And in response, he gets those three words. "Where?" Rand asks. And he isn't taken to SG, but to TAR, where he has interacted with Ishy in his dreams in that room with the twisting fireplace. TAR is a constant for all worlds of the Pattern -- sealing the DO there will seal him away everywhere.

During my current reread, it occured to me that the path down to the Pit of Doom changes depending on the DO's will. The spikes will either brush Demandred's head, force Moggy to crawl, or clear Shadar Haran by several feet. The only other place we've seen such control of the surroundings is TAR, where thinking of something can bring it into being.

 

What if the Pit of Doom (where the Bore can be felt) is where the separation between reality and TAR is at its thinest? We already know things can be done there that can't be done anywhere else (e.g. mindtraps). So, assuming the sealing will take place in the Pit of Doom, and assuming that things that can only be done in TAR may be possible to do in the Pit as well, what TAR-specific abilities could be useful in sealing the DO?

[Alonin]

I think that Fain has something to do with resealing the prison, along with the use of saidin and saidar. Earlier, someone brought up a point that if both saidin and saidar touched the dark one, they would become tainted like saidin did on it's own. Since Rand used Shadar Logoth to cleanse saidin, it stands to reason that Fain's Shadar Logoth power can keep them clean.

 

Now, maybe Fain will overcome his hatred of Rand to go after the DO who essentially destroyed him, but probably not likely.

 

Also earlier someone speculated that Rand's blood could act as a buffer against the DO tainting the One power. That could be true if Fain killed Rand with his shadar logoth dagger, Rand's infected blood acts as a buffer, and saidin and saidar heal the bore.

 

A third possibility regarding Fains Shadar Logoth dagger involves Mat. Mat has some buffering against the dagger, and MIn's veiwings did see a Ruby dagger in his future, but nothing said he was done with it.. So, Fain's elaborate story arc could just be about getting the dagger to SHayol Ghul so Mat can get it from him and use it to help Rand seal the DO prison.

 

Even though it likely isn't any of those, I do belive that sealing the Bore will involve the simultaneous use of Saidin and Saidar (likely along with the use of Callandor), and Fain's Shadar Logoth Power.

 

Also, for DrZippy, you said the Shayol Ghul has properties that are similar to TAR. It could be entirely possible that Shayol Ghul is a mixture of both the real world and TAR. I assume that the sealing has to be more in the real world though. IN TAR, it's about the mind, not the Power. Since that's the case, the DO will win hands down because he is a being with the opposite power of the Creator with much greater mind power.

[thisguy]

I think that Fain has something to do with resealing the prison, along with the use of saidin and saidar. Earlier, someone brought up a point that if both saidin and saidar touched the dark one, they would become tainted like saidin did on it's own. Since Rand used Shadar Logoth to cleanse saidin, it stands to reason that Fain's Shadar Logoth power can keep them clean.

 

Now, maybe Fain will overcome his hatred of Rand to go after the DO who essentially destroyed him, but probably not likely.

 

Also earlier someone speculated that Rand's blood could act as a buffer against the DO tainting the One power. That could be true if Fain killed Rand with his shadar logoth dagger, Rand's infected blood acts as a buffer, and saidin and saidar heal the bore.

 

A third possibility regarding Fains Shadar Logoth dagger involves Mat. Mat has some buffering against the dagger, and MIn's veiwings did see a Ruby dagger in his future, but nothing said he was done with it.. So, Fain's elaborate story arc could just be about getting the dagger to SHayol Ghul so Mat can get it from him and use it to help Rand seal the DO prison.

 

Even though it likely isn't any of those, I do belive that sealing the Bore will involve the simultaneous use of Saidin and Saidar (likely along with the use of Callandor), and Fain's Shadar Logoth Power.

Good stuff.

Fain is already in the Blight. He can track Rand. So, Rand goes to the Bore, Fain follows. Grabs the ring from Rando and falls into the Bore.

As for Rand's blood, Fain sliced his never healing wound. It's still infected with the taint of Shadar Logoth, just contained. Spilling his blood may spill that taint.

 

Now, we know the ending ;)

[mike hunt's here]

there was another post somewhere that said aMOL would be a lot of Mat.

 

I'm thinking that the defeat of the dark one will be sort of a cross between the Veins of Gold chapter and the Clensing of the Taint chapters. Mostly Rand talking to himself while people around him do stuff and then poof...Rand figures it out and bye bye Shai'tan.

[Dbajdek]

I think the DO will be female, and the lads wont know what to do :P

[Entreri]

Shai'tan is eternal and almost all powerful and he will be back.

 

DR can only put a bandage on it, until Lanfear destroys it again in the next turning.

 

WoT is a trap.

[Neophyte]

Shai'tan is eternal and almost all powerful and he will be back.

 

DR can only put a bandage on it, until Lanfear destroys it again in the next turning.

 

WoT is a trap.

 

Nu-uh! Love!

 

(paraphrasing TGS, chapter 50)

[joeron bigelow]

I got it...

 

Rand should parley with Moridin and slip him some Forkroot tea!!! How utterly simple and obvious. I can't believe no one thought of this!!!.

 

haha

[F Horn of Valere]

Why is everyone assuming that using saidar and saidin both will cause both to be tainted? I was under the impression the 100 Companions only got tainted because the women were too chicken to join them. If both are used, I think that the OP will totally dry up to seal the DO. No taint because all of the OP will be used (thus solving any moral dilemma of Tuon being able to channel yet controlling the Seanchan, and making the conquest of the Aiel less murky with channelers).

[thisguy]

After many weeks of bitter fighting and deaths on both side, the DO will be taken in and found guilty of tax evasion

 

Balwer saves the day

[Suttree]

Why is everyone assuming that using saidar and saidin both will cause both to be tainted? I was under the impression the 100 Companions only got tainted because the women were too chicken to join them. If both are used, I think that the OP will totally dry up to seal the DO. No taint because all of the OP will be used (thus solving any moral dilemma of Tuon being able to channel yet controlling the Seanchan, and making the conquest of the Aiel less murky with channelers).

 

Because RJ told us that is the case. LTT's plan was flawed, it's why Rand knows he can't seal the bore the same way. LPD was right in that the plan was too dangerous, if not for the exact reason.

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

...The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted...

[Zorlon]

If both are used, I think that the OP will totally dry up to seal the DO.

Others have already explained why it is more complicated than just using both halves of the power.

 

But is there any evidence to prove there will still be channelers post TG?

 

Jordan or Sanderson has stated that while the OP is inexhaustable, there is only a finite amount of to be used(which, I think, might be part of the reason so few Sa'Angreal were made... there just wasn't enough power to go around for everyone to be drawing that much of it), so it seems like using a whole bunch of it in sealing the Bore might use make it unavailable.

 

And, sooner or later channeling has got to go away for one reason or another anyway.

[Ashaman Kovan]

Doesn't work like that. It's finite, but once the weave is released and the flows that were woven to make it are gone it goes back in the "pool".