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How does everyone think the DO will be defeated?


The Sealing   

107 members have voted

  1. 1. How will the DO be defeated?

    • Saidin/Saidar used with something to "touch" the DO and place good seals.
    • The Song will heal the Bore.
    • Rand will kill the DO.
    • Fain and DO will destroy each other.
    • Rand, Mat and Perrin tripod Ta'veren attack!
    • The DO will sign a peace treaty and leave the world alone.
    • Some sort of "Creator Power" will help Rand seal the Bore.
    • Other.
  2. 2. What will be the thing that "touches" the DO?

    • Saidin.
    • Saidar.
      0
    • True Power.
    • Rand's Blood.
    • "Creator Power".
    • Fain.
    • It's all good, the DO will be dead.
    • All good, DO leaves the world alone.
    • Other.


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So basically the point of the thread is to state your prediction and see what is the most popular ideas, and maybe be introduced to some other, less popular or known ideas.

 

 

So, answer the poll and if you want, reply with your own thoughts about what is going down. Discussing theories present and their validity, if there is something that makes it impossible or a missed quote is all good, but it is primarily just a survey to see what people think, not a discussion as to what is more likely, but really, who listens to the OP anyway :tongue:

 

So I may as well start of with my prediction.

 

I am going with the DO will be sealed using both saidin and saidar, with Rand's blood being the 'buffer' that touches the DO to prevent the OP from being tainted again.

 

First, I think that the weaving used for the sealing was not necessarily wrong, although I don't say Rand will use the exact same weaves, it was more the lack of saidar.

 

Apart from the obvious theme of co-operation and the unity between male-female, I think it is necessary from a practical point of view, not just thematically.

 

One of the reasons the seals were so weak was that only saidin was used.

 

INTERVIEW: Mar, 2000

Letter to Paul Ward (Verbatim)

 

PAUL WARD

Possible question: How did the Hundred Companions link to make the seals on the Dark One's prison?

 

ROBERT JORDAN

They did not do it linked. They worked together individually, which made it more difficult, and that is part of the reason the seals have weakened so quickly. I never meant to imply linking. It is possible for large numbers to do a large project without linking, although it is more easily done in a circle.

 

Bold being mine. Linking seems a necessary thing to make strong seals. And we all know males cannot link without a female channeler.

 

We then still have the taint to worry about, as mentioned by RJ, if women were present at the sealing, both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

 

Rand/LTT remembers the need to "touch" the DO with Saidin to place the seals, which led to the tainting. (tGS) So, we need something then to touch the DO and protect the OP from being tainted again. The TP is the first answer, since it is most like the OP, however, the TP is the DO, it would be like touching the DO with...the DO.

 

So I believe that it will be Rand's blood or body/life. He will literally make himself a shield against the DO's taint. My reasons for this lie in the Karatheon Cycle.

 

yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle,

and his blood shall give us the Light.

 

First we have this passage, which ties Rand's blood with Light, and the salvation of the world.

 

Then we have another passage which directly links his blood and SG/Pit of Dhoom.

 

 

Red on black, the Dragon’s blood stains the rock of Shayol Ghul.

In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.

 

 

And again here.

 

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,

washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation

 

This one specifically mentions "sacrifice" which suggests it is purposely done, not just a battle wound that ends up doing some good. Thus supporting Rand using himself as the "shield" between the OP and DO.

 

To do this, I think Callandor will be used. Min has recently thought that there may be another flaw. She thinks Rand may be left "vulnerable". My interpretation is that Rand will purposely open himself to this vulnerability and use Callandor as a type of funnel to hold the DO while the sealing is completed.

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It's very possible Rand will off himself that way. I dislike it mainly because it dumps the Mordred bit. There are a lot of Mordred parallels, so it seems like one of them should actually kill him...and on top of that, Shayol Ghul is theoretically a very dangerous place for him to die (or shed his blood for that matter). That has its own potentials, but it seems to me that the game is over if the Dark One gets his soul, and as RJ has said, he can do that very easily at Shayol Ghul itself. That's why I tend to think it more likely that he will be turned there. It's a way for RJ to really tap into the bits of detail he planted concerning the properties of the place itself, and the Dark One's power there. I think the Dark One probably has to be wounded or distracted in some way for Rand to be successful at sealing the Bore, and I don't think that will happen when he goes there with Callandor. However, if Alivia is his third chick, then it would definitely be convenient for that viewing for him to die there. But how would she help? Just by being in the circle? Way back in TEOTW, Moiraine 1) said she would kill Rand herself to keep him from the Shadow (and the same for Mat and Perrin), and 2) she noted that the Dark One could reach them more easily dead than alive. With RJ's quote about his powers at Shayol Ghul, that seems like a warning.

 

That could, however, be where the "body swap" theory comes in. I've always thought it was possible at least that this would happen—Rand dies, and his soul lives on sort of Mindtrapped by Moridin's—but that I just didn't think it was very likely that Rand would end up in Moridin's body after the Last Battle. That's still my position, but I can definitely see other scenarios as well. Like, Rand gets Mindtrapped at Shayol Ghul (that's where the blood comes in), his Mindtrap is crushed, and he goes around causing general mayhem. Or, just the spilling of his blood on those rocks causes a scenario where his link with Moridin becomes a problem. (That might be a reason why Moridin has gone out of the way to have Shayol Ghul rock in various places, to try to prevent the Pit of Doom = salvation prophecy from happening.)

 

The Bore is tricky business, really. The yin-yang on Sweet's cover definitely looks like a clue stick. But I can also see singing playing a part, or Tel'aran'rhiod. I really don't think that Callandor is going to save the day, for some reason. Justice will do that.

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Hmm, good points.

 

SG and the Bore is very difficult as you said. Apart from knowing it is very dangerous and the DO is most powerful there, we are unsure as to what exactly can happen there.

 

In terms of dying, I have no idea really how that will work precisely. Too many possibilities and problems there.

 

I know what you mean with Mordred parallels, it does make sense, I can really only think of two possibilities,and again, it is pure conjecture here.

 

1. Rand will die twice. I don't like the idea of Rand dying, then coming back and defeating the DO and living the rest of his life normally. I mean, emotionally, it would be great, but something about it is off. Birgitte being ripped out of TAR is serious enough, and could potentially have disastrous results. Drawing on the Jesus Parallel for a bit here, I see Rand's death/rebirth something like this. Killed by Romans (whoever you think is likely to kill him), returns to life to finish the job, then returns to Heaven (TAR I suppose in this case) so that balance is not messed up. The difference being he sacrifices himself the second time willingly.

 

2. Technically it is someone else that kills him, but Rand makes the best of it. So he lets somebody kill him, similar to the battle with Ishamael above the sky at Falme, opens himself to death to seize the chance of victory type thing.

 

 

The danger of the DO taking his soul is another good point, although I think that this is maybe a part of his sacrifice. He is kind of keeping the DO distracted by offering himself as a target/shield. Then he struggles against the DO to hold him long enough for the seals to be placed again. Not sure how much resistance is possible, but when LTT sealed the bore, saidin managed to hold the DO off at Shayol Ghul, albeit with consequences.

 

It probably won't pan out as I originally proposed, but I think that the main point of Rand's blood shielding the OP from the DO will be the general idea of it. All the intimate details I don't think anyone can guess at this point as you already have raised valid problems with it.

 

Funny you say that about Callandor, I was actually thinking something similar. Well, I hadn't thought of Justice playing a big part in the sealing, but the point of Callandor not being used to actually save the day. To be honest, I decided to put the bit about Callandor at the end, to avoid the inevitable question of "What about Callandor?". If Callandor is involved, I would say it was something like that, but I also am not sure about it being the hero, so to speak. I think it has more to do with Rand's death than the Sealing. (which I distinguish as different, even if they happen at similar times)

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I don't think Justice will help seal the Bore, precisely; I just think it much more likely to 'save the day' than Callandor. Part of that is Rand's question the Aelfinn about how to 'win' the Last Battle. Presumably, winning means sealing him back up again, don't you think? At least, ultimately it means that. And to win, the two must be 'as one'. The future teeters on the edge of a blade. And the blade will bind him by twain. Cut the wetlands in two with a sword. All that was, and all that shall be will balance on the point of a sword. And a sword that seems a solid as the stone. It's too much to ignore. Again, it's hard to see how Justice could help sealing the Bore, unless it has special properties and he throws it into the lake of fire, or something; I just think it likely to have something to do with Rand's eventual agreement with the Seanchan—whatever leads to the two being 'as one'.

Edited by Terez
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I think the Pattern will be healed, closing the Bore. I don't think Rand Sedai will try sealing it a second time, even with the help of female AS; he would want  a permanent solution, as Herid Fel suggested.

 

I think it wil be Narishma wielding Callandor, while Rand is in the Pit of Doom doing whatever is necessary to hold back the DO. I think Justice will be needed to help with the Seanchan somehow. (If Hawkwing doesn't put Fortuona over his knee..)

 

Re Mordred: I think there does indeed have to be an Arthur/Mordred parallel, and I'm guessing it will be Mat 'Son of battles' Cauthon / 'You killed my father prepare to die' Olver.

.  Hmm.. did we ever find out if Olver had a second name...?

'In the Pit of Doom shall his blood free men from the Shadow.' I think his blood doesn't necessarily have to be shed there; that's just where its effect will be felt. We know that SG rock has strange properties; perhaps it's all connected, so that what affects one piece (Taim's podium?) affects all.

 

Not at all sure about the body-swap.

 

Edited after seeing cover image.

Edited by FarShainMael
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I think it'll be s weave,of saidin, saidar and true power to do the trick - TP to hold the DO, and the other two to seal the pattern. TP will be drawn by Rand through Morridin, and Callandor will enable holding all three powers at the same time. This is the hidden 'weakness', that you can open yourself to the DO(in the form of the TP) with it. Thus will the sealing take place. This will have some serious side effects - the closing of the bore will disable TP useage, so I think it will leave Rand burned out - along with the circle of three, dooming him to die after a normal lifespan. That is, if he actually survives the sealing.

 

@Terez an Barid Bel

About the theory of Rand using his blood for buffer, I don't think he has to fear for his soul at a succesfull sealing. After all, the DO will lose the ability to touch the pattern - of which Rand's soul is a part. While he may grasp him at the moment of dying/sealing, he.will not be able to hold on, and be forced to allow his soul back to TAR.

 

Edit: typo

Edited by Gaidar
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The idea that he would die with a successful sealing seems to be contradicted by (among other things) the Nicola Foretelling, where at the time of his resurrection the future still teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

All true. But it might be suported by the most famous, and almost least qouted line In the prophecies. "Twice and twice shall he be marked, twice to live(birth on dragonmount/ressurection)and twice to die(once earlier, and once for the sealing)

Maybe he's already resurrected by the time he dies to seal the bore. (my pet teory is that he gets ressurected by the DO, due to him being needed for his own victory. Don't think it will, though)

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The idea that he would die with a successful sealing seems to be contradicted by (among other things) the Nicola Foretelling, where at the time of his resurrection the future still teeters on the edge of a blade.

 

Well it could be interpreted differently.

 

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

 

Just for reference to the possibility. I am aware of the evidence against the "great battle" being the sealing the DO/LB, just pointing out that there is still doubt as to what this means precisely.

 

Edit: Oh, @FSM re: healing. I know what you mean, and I agree aswell. However, I think that the True Source used properly will heal it. After all, it is the driving force of the Wheel, that keeps the Wheel turning. I would say that it has the capacity to heal the bore, more likely than anything foreign.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I think in the end it'll come down mostly to Rand, Mat and Perrin being ta'veren. So far there has been no explanation why the Pattern spun out the three ta'veren as it did and I would be very much surprised if there wasn't a deeper meaning behind it. Moreover there is that unexplained link between them, which has to be more important than for them to peep on each other when they have sex.

 

From what I can see defeating the DO will take two parts. First there has to be something which will actively hold back the power of the DO to prevent him from just simply wiping out Rand and the others and then there has to be something which will heal the bore. I say heal because just putting a seal on it won't work. Herid Fel already said it way back before he got killed. For the Wheel to keep on turning like it always has been Rand has to restore the prison of the Dark One like the Creator had originally left it. Only then can the DO be forgotten and found again in a future age. So that rip in the Pattern which Mierin and her team caused has to be healed seamlessly like there never had been a rip in the first place.

 

So if I take my assumption that the three ta'veren will be the vital factor and combine it with what else we know; Rand dying and living, Alvida helping him to die, Moiraine being necessary and Callandor being used against him this is what I come up with:

 

During the assault the power of the three ta'veren will be what holds back the DO. As I understand ta'veren it's essentially a spark of the "Creator's gift" or however you want to call it which can bend the Pattern to one's will to some extent. That means ta'veren can do some things the One Power never could do. And one of those things is I believe being able to touch the power of the Dark One directly and hold it back long enough for the rift to be mended. The latter will be accomplished by two women linking with Rand the one in charge of the link using an Unravelling on the Bore, which is as many think a special Gateway which leads to the DO's plane of existence and thus something which can be unravelled.

 

However as the Bore is being unravelled the DO will use his chosen vessels to strike at Rand and Co. Rand will face Moridin, Mat will fight Shaidar Haran and Perrin will get his final fight with Slayer.

Mat is kinda the odd man out here because he really has no personal history with his foe, but someone needs to fight Shaidar Haran and the other two are busy.

Perrin will be around to protect Rand from Slayer backstabbing him. I think Shayol Ghul is a place where the real world borders TAR. The rules of both worlds apply in a way and one does not need the OP to cross over between worlds. So Slayer would appear in a moment when Rand was open to an attack and Perrin will be there to counter the sneak attack thus fulfilling Min's viewing of needing to be there or Rand would die.

And Rand will for the fifth or sixth time face Moridin. The two will fight and Rand will use Sheathing the Sword a second time and impale Moridin with Callandor as he gets injured in return. However, Moridin will be on guard for that eventuality- he learned from Falme- and will try to take over Rand's body by controlling TAR just as Callandor impales him. Rand will be caught off guard and barely manage to transfer himself into Moridin's body before his mind gets extinguished.

Rand will be dying from the wound he himself had inflicted and will barely manage to remain conscious and able to keep up the link with the two women and Moridin will be only a few moments away from winning the Last Battle for the DO. Someone, no clue who, perhaps Moiraine if she isn't the one linked to Rand guiding the Unravelling, perhaps one of his three wives will realize what had happened and will cry out a warning and Alivia will react with the trained speed of a soldier with several centuries of experience and kill Moridin before he can strike.

 

The bore will be unravelled, but the DO's power will still manage to slow down the rate of the closing so it would take some time until it fully closes, Shaidar Haran will escape and Rand will lie between death and life too weak to survive a Healing and the dagger ter'angreal which can hide someone from the DO will be used to protect him. Rand will recover in due time and then there'll be one final clash between Rand and Shaidar Haran, now being a complete avatar of the DO, which Rand naturally wins.

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Just something ive noticed. One of the popular theories is that rand will have to remake the DO's prision so that it is the same as the way the creator made it. However this creates the question, is Rand actually capable of this. Is Rand Al'thor, a simple human being(although one bad motherfudger) capable of duplicating the same feat that the creator...did. We've heard so many people tell rand that he is NOT the creator, over and over, including Moiraine, Nyv, Egwene etc etc. Im not entirly sure where this will leave mankind thought, as im very very doubtful that rand would be able to kill the DO, because of the central theme of balance.

 

So in summation, what im talking about is whether or not the patch that everyone thinks needs to be laid down(in the wot univ.) is enough. My thoughts are No, Herid Fel was talking along these line before he was murdered aswell.

 

So what now? Well my pet idea is something along the lines of the creator. I HOPE, although there isnt much proof for it, that the creator has all along been very subtlety helping the pattern. I know this goes against the idea that the creator won't admit he made a faulty world and therefore won't help, and rand's contemplation(possibly coming from moridin) that the creator made worlds the same way a gardener would grow flowers, and lets the sick ones die of without aiding in restoration (rough recount). I'd like to think that being ta'veren means that the creator takes a special interest in you. I think it might have been moiraine, but it may have been verin or some other Aes Sedai/philosopher, that mentioned that when a ta'veren should be calm and resting, and unaware that there may be a plot against them or an attack looming, that they will be alert and ready etc etc. (divine intervention?)

 

I know, its a bit of a hair-brain theory, and i understand the balance concept, so we should even go so far as to say that because the DO takes an active interest in the pattern, messing with it etc., that the creator does the exact opposite, and ignores it, but i think it'd be amazing, although possibly anti-climatic if the creator was actually taking an active interest... :bela: ?

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The cycle has to continue and if Rand is for the side of good, he cannot remake the pattern. There are somethings that Rand can do, but destroying the Dark One is not one of them. In Randland, the DO is needed to provide balance to the world and to give it reason. He provides the hate to love, the sadness to happiness, and the anger to serenity. Without him, the world would not exist.

 

The Creator did not just put the DO in there for fun or to torture everyone. He was put there for a reason and he will need to survive for the Pattern and the Wheel of Time to survive. Also, rand, though he is very strong, (I apologize for the repetition), is not the Creator. He cannot decide the fate of the entire Wheel of Time, just because he is the Dragon Reborn.

 

Because of this, he will have to reseal the Bore like Lews Therin. There will be some slight differences in this though. Since Rand can touch the TP, he can use that to actually touch the DO as a shield and obviously he cannot taint it since it is already "tainted". I believe that the seals last time were weak because of the effect on saidin and the ability for the seals to break as the DO's own taint was inside. Without this, the bore can be sealed successfully.

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I saw some people voted for fain being the thing touching the DO. Thats impossible. E know the bore has been sealed every previous time. And we know that fain is unique to this age. So all the previous times, he was not required.

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Truefully we cannot answer this without understanding one fundamental question: what is the bore itself? it was obviously made with the power but what did it actually *do*? I'm unsure on the spefics on how it is going to be sealed... but if you consider the bore to be a sort of gateway then if you close it; it will be as if it was never there in the first place rather than a "patch job".

 

Oh an fain falling in and doing a "gollum" and spedning eternity fighting the DO is pretty much a given :P

Edited by boli
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I sort of feel that the song may be a big part of the last battle and may heal the pattern, removing the bore, but I more suspect Perrin, the Tinkers and the Aiel will turn to the WotL after the last battle.

Since Rand sagely asks "how can I win the last battle and survive?" when he knows he’ll get a true answer, that answer has to be the starting point:

"The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die."

- Aelfinn’s answer to one of Rand’s questions (KoD ch18)

I take the first part to be about the main battle (led by Matt and Perrin) and the last part to be about Rand's face off with the Dark One. Since the question is about defeating the Dark One (not winning the last battle), I'll focus on that. And to do that, Rand is going to have to die.

 

Rand dying as a strategy of victory is implied elsewhere:

"With his coming are the dread fires born again. The hills burn, and the land turns sere. The tides of men run out, and the hours dwindle. The wall is pierced, and the veil of parting raised. Storms rumble beyond the horizon, and the fires of heaven purge the earth. There is no salvation without destruction, no hope this side of death."

- Fragment from The Prophecies of the Dragon (TFoH, Prologue)

There is no hope this side of death. So I guess Rand has to fight on the other side of death.

 

Dying as a strategy for living is obviously not simple. I think that's why he needs Alivia's help:

Min: “Rand, I like Alivia… But she is going to kill you."

Rand: "You said she was going to help me die. Those were your words. Helping me die isn't the same as killing me."

- Min’s vision (WH ch25)

I think Alivia will be there with Nynaeve when he wields Callendor (she’s the only woman we’ve met as strong as Nynaeve other than the Foresaken).

 

How Callandor is used is pretty central to the strategy of the Last Battle. I think the main clues are:

"A glowing sword, Callandor, being gripped in a black hand."

- Viewed on Rand by Min (ToM ch51)

"He shall hold a blade of light in his hands, and the three shall be one."

Commentaries on the Karaethon Cycle (TGS ch48)

Min and Cadsuane think this refers to how Rand must use Callandor. The passage instigated Cadsuane’s investigation into Callandor and her discovery that it must be used in a circle of three. Cadsuane never says what her evidence for the circle of three is, but it could be this:

"...and the Blade will bind him by twain."

- Jendai Prophecy (ToM ch32)

But Min and Cadsuane both know they haven’t worked out the whole story. I think the part they're missing is that the “three” are Saidin, Saidar, and the True Power: Nynaeve holding Saidar, Alivia holding Saidin (through Callendor) and Rand holding the True Power. I think the True Power is implied by Callandor being gripped in a black hand. And I think that Alivia will meld the flows to help him die in a very particular way.

 

I'm quite sure Rand will be at Shayol Ghul, where the rocks will be stained with actual blood, not metaphorical blood and Rand and Moridin both die there:

"His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul, washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man's salvation."

- Kareathon Cycle (TSR ch3 & ch48)

"An open cavern, gaping like a mouth.

Bloodstained rocks.

Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs."

- Viewed on Rand, by Min (ToM ch13)

 

The key is what's meant by dead? I think his soul needs to leave his body, and travel to meet and fight the Dark One on the other side of death. While he fights, Elayne, Aviendah and Min will guard his body and anchor him to it:

"I’m not going to let you die, Rand al’Thor! Elayne and Aviendha and I wont let you!"

- Min (KoD ch18)

"Elayne and Min and Aviendha sitting in a silent circle around him, each in turn reaching out to lay a hand on him."

- Dreamed by Egwene (LoC ch15)

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

- Foretold by Nicola (LoC ch14)

"Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other."

- Dreamed by Melaine and Bair, recounted to Rand by Egwene (LoC ch19)

"Three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood."

- Viewed by Min (TEotW ch15)

"Elayne, Min, Aviendha: anchoring him to the world while he travels through death."

- Dreamed by Egwene (LoC ch15)

The last of those is the most telling, I think. Elayne, Min and Aviendha will anchor Rand to the world while he fights the Dark One. I don't know how he will fight, but I think Nynaeve and Alivia wielding Callendor through him will let him access a lot of power, and being dead will let him access the Dark One's power, so he'll be able to push the Dark One right back into his prison.

 

It will be Nynaeve (with Narishma's help) who brings him back from Death. Ba’alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin was aware of Nynaeve’s role early on:

“You must find the woman Nynaeve. Elayne is of no importance, but both the woman and this girl here must be taken with you on your ships when you sail.”

- Liandrin to Suroth (TGH ch40)

NB: “The woman” is Nynaeve and “this girl here” is Egwene. Liandrin is referring to an order from “our master”, the Ba'alzamon.

“They will not save you” Ba’alzamon said. “Those who might save you will be carried far across the aryth ocean.”

- Ba’alzamon to Rand (TGH ch47)

Ba'alzamon thinks Nynaeve and Egwene have been taken to Seanchan, so when he says "those who might save you", he's talking about Nynaeve and Egwene. I've no idea how Egwene might save him.

 

I think Rand’s plan of dying to face the DO wont go smoothly because of Lanfear. I think he's going to try to free her soul, fulfilling the dark prophecy of serving her after dying:

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.

The ancient war, she yet fights.

Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still..."

- Part of the Dark Prophecy, written in blood by Padan Fain (TGH ch7)

 

I think because Rand gets sidetracked, Narishma is going to decide to follow after Rand, to the far side of death, to fetch him back.

"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

- Prophecies of the Dragon (TSR ch21)

“Who daraws it out shall follow after” implies much more than simply “be a follower”, which most people are. It’s a specific thing that applies to only one person following Rand on one occasion. I think Narishma will follow Rand to the far side of death and guide him back to Nynaeve so she can bring both Rand and Narishma back to the world of the living.

 

BTW, I think Rand will spend 3 days travelling through death. That will finally satisfy Nynaeve, but it wont surprise Master Norry:

"Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she healed somebody three days dead.”

- Thought by Elayne (LoC ch7)

"I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse.”

- Master Norry, to Elayne, referring to Rand (WH ch9)

On the third day, he will rise from the dead. There will be a lot left to do.

Edited by The One-Eyed Fool
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No doubt there are - there's too much in it not to contain holes. I did see the cover and agree that it shows Nynaeve and Moiraine with Rand holding Callandor in Shayol Ghul. I had originally thought that it may be those two, but I cut that out because the post was getting too long.

 

The cover art doesn't necessarily show who will be in the link though. Only that those three people are likely to be on scene. The cover art of all the books has been vague at best.

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I did see the cover and agree that it shows Nynaeve and Moiraine with Rand holding Callandor in Shayol Ghul. I had originally thought that it may be those two, but I cut that out because the post was getting too long.

 

The cover art doesn't necessarily show who will be in the link though. Only that those three people are likely to be on scene. The cover art of all the books has been vague at best.

 

I don't think that the cover art has ever been quite that vague. Now, I do suspect that RJ was telling a tall tale when he said that the extra dude on the cover of TEOTW was supposed to be a 4th ta'veren, who got written out because he didn't have anything to do. I believe it was a bit of an inside joke. However, usually all the people are at least in the right places. Some of them are slighly iffy, like TDR, but I think Brandon took the cover issues kind of personally and tried to be anal about them, so I doubt the women depicted at Shayol Ghul are any other than the two he will link with. I suspect Rand has already died and been resurrected at this point. It's possible the DKS cover depicts Shayol Ghul, but I think it's also quite possible it depicts Dragonmount. And lava seems more likely than blood to me. Perhaps it was supposed to be ambiguous. I'm kind of torn, really; I can see him dying at either place. But either way he will have to be resurrected to finish the job. I expect Alivia's role to be relatively minor, and something completely different from what most people are expecting. In the end it all hinges on whether Callandor is going to save the day or whether it's going to be a disaster. It kind of has to be one of the two, because there has to be a reason to resurrect him, so if he dies there it's got to be a disaster because the day isn't yet saved (as per Nicola's Foretelling, and the dream that mirrors it). But if he uses Callandor after resurrection, then it's likely that most of the supposed issues with using it are red herrings. I suspect some of them refer to Justice.

Edited by Terez
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Okay, some details:

 

The key is what's meant by dead? I think his soul needs to leave his body, and travel to meet and fight the Dark One on the other side of death. While he fights, Elayne, Aviendah and Min will guard his body and anchor him to it:

"I’m not going to let you die, Rand al’Thor! Elayne and Aviendha and I wont let you!"

- Min (KoD ch18)

"Elayne and Min and Aviendha sitting in a silent circle around him, each in turn reaching out to lay a hand on him."

- Dreamed by Egwene (LoC ch15)

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

- Foretold by Nicola (LoC ch14)

"Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other."

- Dreamed by Melaine and Bair, recounted to Rand by Egwene (LoC ch19)

"Three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood."

- Viewed by Min (TEotW ch15)

"Elayne, Min, Aviendha: anchoring him to the world while he travels through death."

- Dreamed by Egwene (LoC ch15)

The last of those is the most telling, I think. Elayne, Min and Aviendha will anchor Rand to the world while he fights the Dark One. I don't know how he will fight, but I think Nynaeve and Alivia wielding Callendor through him will let him access a lot of power, and being dead will let him access the Dark One's power, so he'll be able to push the Dark One right back into his prison.

 

Unfortunately, the last, 'most telling' bit seems to be completely fabricated. I was pretty sure of that when I read your post earlier, but since I had just woken up I didn't feel like looking into it and trying to figure out where you got that from.

 

It will be Nynaeve (with Narishma's help) who brings him back from Death. Ba’alzamon/Ishamael/Moridin was aware of Nynaeve’s role early on

 

There is some pretty blatant foreshadowing of the method of Rand's resurrection, if you know where to look.

 

"Into the heart he thrusts his sword,

into the heart, to hold their hearts.

Who draws it out shall follow after,

What hand can grasp that fearful blade?"

- Prophecies of the Dragon (TSR ch21)

“Who daraws it out shall follow after” implies much more than simply “be a follower”, which most people are.

 

This is one of the ones I think refers to Justice. Rand tried to force the fulfillment, so that alone makes it suspicious.

 

BTW, I think Rand will spend 3 days travelling through death.

 

This is something I've been bringing up a lot (here, Twitter, other places) since the Whelan cover was revealed. I don't think that the eclipse fulfills 'twice dawns' because of the 3-day references, and some other things. You might look into the legend of Boann and the Dagda.

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Looking over my notes, that one quote in bold may have mixed up half a quote and half a personal note. I think the actual dream should be this,

"Elayne and Min and Aviendha, sitting in a silent circle around him, each in turn reaching out to lay a hand on him"

It doesn't make the same point I was trying to make, but I still think the 3 of them tethering him to life while he travels through death is plausible at this point.

 

There is some pretty blatant foreshadowing of the method of Rand's resurrection, if you know where to look

That's a bit of an oblique comment. If you're talking about resurrection through the ages, or through the Horn, then I don't find that very satisfying. The strong implication has always been that Rand will be allowed to live after death in this life, in this age. If you mean a literal use of the power to bring someone back to life in a mundane sense, then I find that unlikely. I don't think the repeated pronouncements that its impossible constitute a set up for the big reveal that actually, it is possible. That would come across as very strange. There's a big difference between the closed-mindedness of characters who think because they don't know how to do something that it can't be done, and the idea that death is not reversible. Even the Dark One doesn't do direct reincarnation.

 

Re: Justice, I'm not sure why you think its so important. Its only been mentioned by name twice in the whole series, plus a possible reference in one prophecy. There's never been any hints in the books that the prophecy of "into the heart..." is anything other than what Rand thinks it is. That'd be a bit of a weird twist at this stage I think. I'm expecting Justice to play a role in the bargain with Tuon, but not much else. Rand also 'forced' the fulfilment of drawing Calandor, but surely that one's beyond question

 

Hmm... I read the link you gave, but I can't see the connection to WOT. I think the chapter titles and names you mentioned in another thread, while interesting, don't give us much to go on in terms of expectations. Specifically, I don't think the twice dawning day will be because the planet rotation stops and I don't think asynchronous time will come into it either. But these all belong in separate threads I think. The question here is how do people think the DO will be killed. I think it will be with Nynaeve + Alivia (or Moiraine) using Calandor to help Rand travel through death to confront the DO on the other side of death and use the three elements of the power to push him into his prison, then heal the prison (possibly through use of the Song). And I think Rand will get lost while he's traveling through death, needing Narishma to guide him back to Nynaeve who will return him to life. There's a lot of speculation there, but its all based on prophecy and dreaming etc from the books. Possibly some of it has been proposed and discarded before, I'm not sure. But its natural for ideas to have holes in them, otherwise they'd be facts and wouldn't be worth mentioning.

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I think Terez is talking about a pretty big event in FoH as Foreshadowing for how Rand will be resurrected.

 

The quote you changed has been fulfilled, FYI, when they bonded him. Not that that changes anything in regards to your theory.

 

Justice's importance has actually been hinted at quite a bit throughout the series, if it is not mentioned directly. I agree it will play a part in an agreement with Tuon, but I wouldn't sell its importance short. There is good reason to question its importance.

Rand has Justice with him at Shayol Ghul as per the aMoL cover. I doubt it is to dazzle the DO with its history and grandeur.

 

 

While I think that Callandor is referred to in the "come after" prophecy, it is a valid statement Terez made. Prophecies have a way of self-fulfilment in WoT, and when Rand actively tries to go against or fulfil something it is known to go wrong. It does make it suspicious.

(Although not impossible, because he forced the fulfilment of drawing Callandor from the Stone. The Aiel part was unanticipated, but the actual drawing of Callandor was very much forced, Moiraine certainly didn't like it :tongue:)

 

RJ got his ideas from myths and legends of the world. While he doesn't copy scenes directly from legends, he uses them as parallels. That is how it refers to the Wheel. Not to say that it is correct, just that these myths impact the story. (Callandor: Excalibur Stone of Tear: Sword in the Stone) the Arthurian legend is the most recognizable to the countries with British background (America, Australia etc...) but RJ made a point of researching many different myths and legends from different cultures, and he incorporated many of these into the Wheel.

 

I won't say anything on your theory, since there are no real errors as such, even if it is unlikely. It is your own theory, that is what the thread is for. Just pointing out some things you may not have noticed.

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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I kind of doubt Justice has any special role to play in the Last Battle. It's just a sword. Nothing special about it aside from the fact that it was forged with the OP. Yes, it once belonged to Hawkwing, but that doesn't make it any better or worse than Lan's sword or Tam's old one. And it's not as if Rand was likely to require his swordfighting skills aside from another symbolic fight with Moridin in the clouds and you have to wonder how much or how little of what happens up there is grounded in reality.

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