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Egwene will still be an important leader after the Last Battle -- Rand won't be. So you can argue his relative importance now, but he's a rental. And he, himself, has shown concern for the state of the world post-TG before. Why would he stop now? Egwene is likely his best bet for ensuring that things are put right after he's gone. He should be treating her more as a partner than a pawn.

 

The fact of the matter is that we have no idea what will happen to Rand after the Last Battle. He might die. He might live. He might remain in the public eye, or he might retire somewhere quiet to live out the rest of his life in peace. If he does live, he will be greatly revered - the Fourth Age histories scattered throughout the novels seem to paint him as a wonderful Messiah figure. To describe him as a 'Rental' is a joke; history will likely remember the Dragon for far longer than it will remember an Amyrlin Seat.

 

In any case the White Tower's power will be greatly diminished after TG. We have the Wise Ones, the Windfinders and the Black Tower as rival organisations. No matter what happens the Aes Sedai will never be as powerful and influential as they were when the books began. Egwene is just another ruler, albiet one who currently has more influence than the rest.

 

 

 

hate to break it to you but once rand retires the supreme leader or all chanellers would be egwene and logain.

 

not nynaeve, moraine, silvia, cadsuane or anybody else. Egwene herself

 

The black tower will be vapourised and the aes sedai will clean up all the mess rand allowed to fester with taim and his cronies. The ashaman under logain will move in with aes sedai in tar valon with that massive tower elaida was building.

 

once tarmon gaidon is over, it will be left to egwene and logain to take over the reins. The wiseones, sea folk and the kin are all tied to the bargain made by egwene.

 

so yeah, all the folks here hoping for a massive power degrade for the white tower will be very disappointed come the end of AMOL.

 

 

So tell me, what else happens in aMoL?

 

More seriously, you really think that the hatred between male and female is just going to evaporate like that, and the aes sedai are going to accept male channelers into their city?

 

 

sigh wake up already man. the taint on saidin has been cleansed. The status quo has been changed. Men are bonding women and women are bonding men. weren't you reading the books lately? Seen the last book? seen the tag team between pevara and the ashaman dude who had the talent in creating gateways?

 

there was a reason for the distrust before. That is no longer there. The ashaman will need a new home when the aes sedai and the loyal good ashaman rip the black tower apart. And that home my friend will be tar valon.

 

 

oh, i can give you three certainities in amol.

 

the prison will be remade as a whole. Back to the time before lanfear drilled through. The last battle will only take a few days which is going to be disappointing. Personally i think the last true battle was the war of power.

Moridin will die in a confrontation with rand

Rand will retire annonymously with min and logain will assume the leadership of all the ashaman

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The Black Tower and White Tower will, in all likelihood, be housed in the same city. That seems to me to be by far the most likely reason for the repeated mentions of Elaida's Tower.

 

Egwene will probably survive, and be Amyrlin. Logain will be T'Amrylin, or some such title. Equally sharing the power of the Aes Sedai as an organization. Laughably, some people will insist that this will constitute an increase in power for Egwene, when in fact it is clearly a diminutation of her power. She will no longer be the unquestioned and unaccountable head of the organization.

 

Magic will become less and less important, as technology advances. This will further reduce the power of the Aes Sedai and other magic-users.

 

Rand will die. He may well be resurrected. Possibly three days later. Laughably, some people will continue to claim that the character was an amalgam of every messianic figure in the history of this world EXCEPT Jesus of Nazareth.

 

Rand al'Thor will be remembered as the savior of the world. Laughably, some people will claim that the true hero of the story is anyone else.

 

The Elves Ogier will sail to Valinor open the Book of Translation and take the Straight Road Portals to their homeworld.

 

Who better than the Aiel to reclaim the blight?

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The Black Tower and White Tower will, in all likelihood, be housed in the same city. That seems to me to be by far the most likely reason for the repeated mentions of Elaida's Tower.

 

Egwene will probably survive, and be Amyrlin. Logain will be T'Amrylin, or some such title. Equally sharing the power of the Aes Sedai as an organization. Laughably, some people will insist that this will constitute an increase in power for Egwene, when in fact it is clearly a diminutation of her power. She will no longer be the unquestioned and unaccountable head of the organization.

 

Magic will become less and less important, as technology advances. This will further reduce the power of the Aes Sedai and other magic-users.

 

Rand will die. He may well be resurrected. Possibly three days later. Laughably, some people will continue to claim that the character was an amalgam of every messianic figure in the history of this world EXCEPT Jesus of Nazareth.

 

Rand al'Thor will be remembered as the savior of the world. Laughably, some people will claim that the true hero of the story is anyone else.

 

The Elves Ogier will sail to Valinor open the Book of Translation and take the Straight Road Portals to their homeworld.

 

Who better than the Aiel to reclaim the blight?

 

Hehe, funny cause it's all true.

 

Though, Egwene may very well have more power. Since Elaida ran it into the ground, half it's post-TG power might still be more than all it's current power. With the Dragon done with, there will be a sizable power vacuum the WT might capitalize on.

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We don't want him to kiss, or wash, her feet. We just thought he should meet with her, tell her what he knew, bounced the idea off her to see if she'd agree. Instead, he decided to play her like any other monarch. Saying exactly the right thing to make her oppose him on the seal breaking and gather people to support her side.

 

Thing is... she kind of IS any other monarch. I mean, the WT houses representatives from every country in the Westlands, I know that, don't get me wrong, and they have, up until now, been the only knows organised channeling force in the Westlands. They do hold influence in a lot of countries, due to the fact many rulers have AS advisors, and the fact that they are the only "official" wielders of the OP, which probably gives them a lot of political clout. But the other nations are still independent nations. They might not wish to act against the Amyrlin's wishes, as they don't want to anger a load of powerful channelers (and we even see Egwene, who is presented as a "good Amyrlin", in some respects, considering trying to remove a monarch of another nation simply because he might disagree with her, so perhaps they have good reason to).

 

But here's the thing. They ARE acting against her wishes. Plenty of nations are making alliances with the Dragon Reborn. He rules some nations, he has allies or potential allies as his stewards in others. Sure, Egwene has managed an agreement with the Aiel and Seafolk where they switch apprentices, and there will possibly be some sort of arrangement where AS can retire into the Kin (I know it was mentioned, but I don't recall whether its been followed through on, yet), but Rand is already acknowledged as the Car'a'carn, and, I believe, the Coramoor, too. So, he doesn't really NEED Egwene for that. The Kin, as an organisation, seem more tied to Andor than the WT. As I said, many nations follow him, or are tentatively allied to him, anyway, or the foundations have been laid for alliances. The WT isn't strictly neccessary for this. Egwene's backing could prove helpful in getting more armies to the FoM, but really, he mostly needs her to bring the AS of the WT. So, yeah, she is just another monarch to him. An influential monarch, one that could be helpful in bringing together factions that might not come if he asked them himself, but still, someone either to be trusted, or to be played. Does he trust her? Does he have reason to?

 

Here's a thought. Rand presumably wants to get the Seanchan involved in the peace talks somehow, as all evidence so far (Mat is married to the Empress, Altara seems happy enough under Seanchan rule, etc.) suggest they will also be a prominent force in the world, post TG. If what we've seen so far is anything to go by, probably more prominent than the WT, if they try using their full power. I doubt this will be allowed to come to pass, but setting that aside, Rand also tried to manipulate Tuon, as he would "any other ruler", and I'd say that's FAR dafter than doing the same to Egwene. But, that aside, Egwene HATES the Seanchan. Understandably, but then, Rand needs to try and come up with some sort of peace, or he believes he should. Saying to Egwene "Oh, yeah, we're going to make peace with the Seanchan! Want to come? :D"? That's going to work? Really?

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Egwene will still be an important leader after the Last Battle -- Rand won't be. So you can argue his relative importance now, but he's a rental. And he, himself, has shown concern for the state of the world post-TG before. Why would he stop now? Egwene is likely his best bet for ensuring that things are put right after he's gone. He should be treating her more as a partner than a pawn.

 

The fact of the matter is that we have no idea what will happen to Rand after the Last Battle. He might die. He might live. He might remain in the public eye, or he might retire somewhere quiet to live out the rest of his life in peace. If he does live, he will be greatly revered - the Fourth Age histories scattered throughout the novels seem to paint him as a wonderful Messiah figure. To describe him as a 'Rental' is a joke; history will likely remember the Dragon for far longer than it will remember an Amyrlin Seat.

 

In any case the White Tower's power will be greatly diminished after TG. We have the Wise Ones, the Windfinders and the Black Tower as rival organisations. No matter what happens the Aes Sedai will never be as powerful and influential as they were when the books began. Egwene is just another ruler, albiet one who currently has more influence than the rest.

 

 

 

hate to break it to you but once rand retires the supreme leader or all chanellers would be egwene and logain.

 

not nynaeve, moraine, silvia, cadsuane or anybody else. Egwene herself

 

The black tower will be vapourised and the aes sedai will clean up all the mess rand allowed to fester with taim and his cronies. The ashaman under logain will move in with aes sedai in tar valon with that massive tower elaida was building.

 

once tarmon gaidon is over, it will be left to egwene and logain to take over the reins. The wiseones, sea folk and the kin are all tied to the bargain made by egwene.

 

so yeah, all the folks here hoping for a massive power degrade for the white tower will be very disappointed come the end of AMOL.

 

 

So tell me, what else happens in aMoL?

 

More seriously, you really think that the hatred between male and female is just going to evaporate like that, and the aes sedai are going to accept male channelers into their city?

 

 

sigh wake up already man. the taint on saidin has been cleansed. The status quo has been changed. Men are bonding women and women are bonding men. weren't you reading the books lately? Seen the last book? seen the tag team between pevara and the ashaman dude who had the talent in creating gateways?

 

there was a reason for the distrust before. That is no longer there. The ashaman will need a new home when the aes sedai and the loyal good ashaman rip the black tower apart. And that home my friend will be tar valon.

 

 

oh, i can give you three certainities in amol.

 

the prison will be remade as a whole. Back to the time before lanfear drilled through. The last battle will only take a few days which is going to be disappointing. Personally i think the last true battle was the war of power.

Moridin will die in a confrontation with rand

Rand will retire annonymously with min and logain will assume the leadership of all the ashaman

 

Yes, I have read the last books and here's what I remember:

 

I remember ashaman being blackmailed into letting themselves be bonded.

 

I remember aes sedai being bonded by force.

 

I remember aes sedai considering bonding an equal number of ashaman to be an unequal agreement.

 

I remember aes sedai still considering that the ashaman have to be controled despite the fact that they know the taint is gone.

 

I remember Androl thinking that the aes sedai had probably come to the BT to gentle them all not to bond them.

 

I remember Pevara not trusting Androl one bit when he showed up.

 

I remember it taking two of the most openminded ashaman and aes sedai, as well as a position of exteme danger for them to even consider working together.

 

I remember Elza saying it would take a long time for people to accept that the taint was gone.

 

I remember Silviana, one of the better reds, thinking that men are not to be trusted, despite the fact that the taint is gone.

 

I remember Egwene thinking that it was true enough for now, even though they would have to work past it one day.

 

I remember Logain being uneasy at there being so many aes sedai present compared to ashaman down in Tear in CoT.

 

 

What I certainly don't remember is any indication that people's mindsets have begun to change despite the fact that the taint is gone. Even the relationships between Merise and Narishma, and Corele and Flinn cannot be said to be completely equal.

 

The hatred aes sedai had for male channelers before the taint was gone was irrational, and I don't expect the aes sedai to start acting rational now. And I don't expect the ashaman to forget it either. The aes sedai don't even respect them, let alone trust them. So far nothing has changed since the cleansing of the taint. I don't expect a few more months or even a few more years to make a real difference either. To me thats not pessimistic, it's just realistic.

 

Also it took a very long time to construct the WT. I will take an equally long time to construct a new tower, whose construction probably hasn't continued since Elaida lost power.

 

Besides why should the ashaman attach themselves to an organisation that is losing power and influence?

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Here's the thing: at the time that Rand spoke to Egwene he knew for a certainty that he could bring in Tear, Illian, the Sea Folk and the Aiel. Asking Elayne to come, and impressing it's important would have brought Andor. Cairhien would have been brought by either Elayne or himself. He knew where the Borderlanders were, and it is Rand who is bringing them to the meeting, not Egwene. Arad Doman is effectively being brought by Rand as well; the White Tower hasn't been involved in its politics (beyond a kingnapping that hadn't yet brought the king to Tar Valon).

 

The Seanchan haven't been contacted by either party that we've seen. The White Tower has brought Murandy, in theory at least. As I noted above, Elayne is coming because Egwene asked her to come, but if Rand had asked her to come and said it was important she likely would have come for him as well. So, the only parties that Egwene is rounding up that Rand couldn't have rounded up himself just as easily are Murandy and the White Tower. At the end of the day, the way Rand set things up isn't to make Egwene do all the hard work of gathering the world.

 

Rand has already done that.

 

He's not relying on Egwene to gather up the nations of the world. All she's bringing that he couldn't have easily brought himself is Murandy and the White Tower itself. He's relying on Egwene to bring the White Tower. If he had asked Egwene to bring the White Tower (and likely its armies as well), chances are that he would have been given a "you're not the boss of us!" response. The situation he's created, and Egwene's response, ensures that the Amyrlin and the Tower will come, and that it will not feel like it's on the defensive, walking into a trap, when they see the gathered armies of the world.

I agree that the only thing Rand had to gain from visiting Egwene that he couldn't get otherwise is Egwene and the WT, but I disagree that he would have been told no if he'd asked. Point out that he's bringing every ruler and army he has to the FoM on a particular day and ask her to be there, and if she doesn't show then the WT ends up looking irrelevant. She can't afford to miss it. As it is, he doesn't put her on the defensive so much as the offensive - she comes to stop him, not hear him out. An approach that guarantees division.

 

 

Certainly, Egwene's first reaction was to ask Rand to talk about it and plan. I see that argument brought up all the time. It's interesting that Rand's response to her request is always forgotten about. He says, "That is why I came to you. To let you plan." Rand tells Egwene he will break the seals, then invites her to plan an alternative to be discussed at Merrilor. So, Egwene knows of Rand's plans, and has been given a month to plan out an alternate method. She has the entirity of the White and Brown Ajahs at her disposal and is in the best possible position to come up with a different plan. Instead, from what we have seen from her numerous POV's, she focuses on gathering rulers to her side to oppose Rand. You might say that Rand has no plan, but then neither does Egwene and Rand specifically told her that he was giving her time to come up with one.
Egwene hasn't been given a month to plan out an alternative method - Rand didn't specify what she should be planning, and he plans to break the seals anyway. He didn't give her much of a reason why the seals should be broken - of course, given that his complete certainty is the result of chatting to one philosopher and he has no idea how to rebuild once he has cleared the rubble, it's not like he could give her much certainty his plan is correct. She uses the time to plan a way to stop him risking the safety of the world. Sensible, I'd say. So what does Rand want Egwene to plan? She is limited in her ability to plan their course of action after breaking the seals and even whether or not they should be broken due to limited information - Rand isn't sharing all he knows. All told, she has every reason to stop him. And as he admitted he needs her, she is quite capable of doing it.

 

 

A rental? Sure, but the world is doomed without this particular rental. Not so with Egwene. So the WT will lose face in front of the rest of the world. Big deal, it could do them, and the rest of the world, a favor.
Rand might be vital for TG, but he is not the only vital person. Egwene is necessary as well.

 

 

Egwene would not be very high on my list of people who could put the world right after the Last Battle, unless you mean put the world right into the pocket of the corrupt and immoral White Tower. She is in no way, shape or form Rand's partner. Hell, even among Aes Sedai he outranks her.
She is head of the AS, he is not AS at all, despite having memories of being head of a now long defunct organisation. First Among Servants isn't a recognised position among modern AS, any more than Holy Roman Emperor is among modern Germans.
He has more than four centuries of experiance in a world that had eliminated poverty, disease, most crime and managed to build ships that could travel in space as the tales of Lem and his eagle tell us.
The space ships were the First Age. Long before LTT's time.
You want to compare a self-absorbed inkeepers daughter to the reincarnation of Lews Therin Telamon? Really? Partners? Equals? Thats absurd.
Indeed. Egwene has come from humble origins to rise to the greatest political office of her Age, a very impressive achievement. What has LTT done that can compare? Taint the Source? Of course, Rand's achievements are impressive, but he was ta'veren, and the prophesied saviour. That subtracts from it somewhat - he had precious little choice.
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Indeed. Egwene has come from humble origins to rise to the greatest political office of her Age, a very impressive achievement. What has LTT done that can compare? Taint the Source? Of course, Rand's achievements are impressive, but he was ta'veren, and the prophesied saviour. That subtracts from it somewhat - he had precious little choice.

One could argue the fact that Egwene is Amyrlin because of Rands Ta'veren, one of the first thing he says to her when he meets her, is that she had done her part, somewhat hinting towards the Wheel, and Rands need, for her to become Amyrlin. Could explain why one Aes Sedai after another seems to get the mental capacity of a 12 year old girl when they are around Egwene during key moments.

 

People Rand meet throughout the book gets forced into situation after having met him, that ultimately leads them to a place and time where they can help/aid Rand directly or indirectly, such as Bayle Domone ending up in Falme, Tanchico and later Ebou Dar.

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Besides why should the ashaman attach themselves to an organisation that is losing power and influence?

Because female channelers are the only ones who'll live nearly as long as Asha'man, now that the Taint is gone. Even if Aes Sedai will only live 300 years thanks to the Oath Rod, that's still two centuries more than a non-channeler wife who will age at a normal rate and die at 80-90. The Kin are too old, the Sea Folk and Wise Ones probably not interested in shorebound/wetlander men.

 

Still, I don't think we should count on the Black Tower joining forces with the White Tower and moving to Tar Valon. In the future Aviendha saw, this was clearly not the case, despite the added incentive of a common enemy (the Seanchan) to fight. The Black and White Tower fought separately and fell at different points in time.

 

The Ravens were unstoppable; now that Tar Valon had fallen, every realm in the wetlands was subject to the Seanchan. Only the Black Tower still fought, though the Asha'man did so in secret, as their fortress had fallen years before.

As for Elaida's Tower, it could become a new home for Kin, who lost their own homes when the Seanchan took Altara and will be left homeless again if the royal palace in Caemlyn burns down in AMoL.

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Besides why should the ashaman attach themselves to an organisation that is losing power and influence?

Because female channelers are the only ones who'll live nearly as long as Asha'man, now that the Taint is gone. Even if Aes Sedai will only live 300 years thanks to the Oath Rod, that's still two centuries more than a non-channeler wife who will age at a normal rate and die at 80-90. The Kin are too old, the Sea Folk and Wise Ones probably not interested in shorebound/wetlander men.

 

Still, I don't think we should count on the Black Tower joining forces with the White Tower and moving to Tar Valon. In the future Aviendha saw, this was clearly not the case, despite the added incentive of a common enemy (the Seanchan) to fight. The Black and White Tower fought separately and fell at different points in time.

 

The Ravens were unstoppable; now that Tar Valon had fallen, every realm in the wetlands was subject to the Seanchan. Only the Black Tower still fought, though the Asha'man did so in secret, as their fortress had fallen years before.

As for Elaida's Tower, it could become a new home for Kin, who lost their own homes when the Seanchan took Altara and will be left homeless again if the royal palace in Caemlyn burns down in AMoL.

 

Well, I was thinking more from a profesional point of view rather than a personal one. I do think though that it's ashaman and aes sedai getting together individually that will contribute to an eventual reconciliation. But the BT can hardly ally or join with the WT for the personal reasons of various ashaman. Those ashaman can still do that without unity between the White and Black towers.

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Indeed. Egwene has come from humble origins to rise to the greatest political office of her Age, a very impressive achievement. What has LTT done that can compare? Taint the Source? Of course, Rand's achievements are impressive, but he was ta'veren, and the prophesied saviour. That subtracts from it somewhat - he had precious little choice.

One could argue the fact that Egwene is Amyrlin because of Rands Ta'veren, one of the first thing he says to her when he meets her, is that she had done her part, somewhat hinting towards the Wheel, and Rands need, for her to become Amyrlin. Could explain why one Aes Sedai after another seems to get the mental capacity of a 12 year old girl when they are around Egwene during key moments.

 

People Rand meet throughout the book gets forced into situation after having met him, that ultimately leads them to a place and time where they can help/aid Rand directly or indirectly, such as Bayle Domone ending up in Falme, Tanchico and later Ebou Dar.

 

 

fantastic.

 

Belittle egwene's achievements by calling her rivals simpletons.Not only that but what ever puny achievements is all due to rand's taveren nature. Genious!

 

I would say that he is an aes sedai, but a different kind of aes sedai, with no authority over the current ones. What I personally find interesting is that he is both aes sedai and ashaman.

 

The word ashaman or the organisation as a whole will gradually fade away leaving the aes sedai. If the circle is to turn back as it should be then we will have the aes sedai and aes sedai alone with both the male and female being part of one organisation. Shock horror.

 

 

 

Something I also found ironic in ToM was Rand telling Cadsuane that he is "the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised," while Egwene was never tested, and as of ToM claims she has no intention of ever taking the test. So who has more right to call themselves Aes Sedai?

 

The current crop of aes sedai are not the old aes sedai of last age. Everything has been changed. Rand is oldest surviving member of that organisation if you discount the forsaken. It also means that the ashaman will undergo a form of testing as well. who knows what that is. But egwene in my opinion should also undergo the test.

 

 

 

Yes, I have read the last books and here's what I remember:

 

I remember ashaman being blackmailed into letting themselves be bonded.

 

I remember aes sedai being bonded by force.

 

I remember aes sedai considering bonding an equal number of ashaman to be an unequal agreement.

 

I remember aes sedai still considering that the ashaman have to be controled despite the fact that they know the taint is gone.

 

I remember Androl thinking that the aes sedai had probably come to the BT to gentle them all not to bond them.

 

I remember Pevara not trusting Androl one bit when he showed up.

 

I remember it taking two of the most openminded ashaman and aes sedai, as well as a position of exteme danger for them to even consider working together.

 

I remember Elza saying it would take a long time for people to accept that the taint was gone.

 

I remember Silviana, one of the better reds, thinking that men are not to be trusted, despite the fact that the taint is gone.

 

I remember Egwene thinking that it was true enough for now, even though they would have to work past it one day.

 

I remember Logain being uneasy at there being so many aes sedai present compared to ashaman down in Tear in CoT.

 

 

What I certainly don't remember is any indication that people's mindsets have begun to change despite the fact that the taint is gone. Even the relationships between Merise and Narishma, and Corele and Flinn cannot be said to be completely equal.

 

The hatred aes sedai had for male channelers before the taint was gone was irrational, and I don't expect the aes sedai to start acting rational now. And I don't expect the ashaman to forget it either. The aes sedai don't even respect them, let alone trust them. So far nothing has changed since the cleansing of the taint. I don't expect a few more months or even a few more years to make a real difference either. To me thats not pessimistic, it's just realistic.

 

Also it took a very long time to construct the WT. I will take an equally long time to construct a new tower, whose construction probably hasn't continued since Elaida lost power.

 

Besides why should the ashaman attach themselves to an organisation that is losing power and influence?

 

the forced bondage if you recall was under the orders of taim to create more discord. You seem to forget the weeping aes sedai when poor eben got killed by aranger at cleansing. or the way narishma acts around his bonded aes sedai. when flinn healed rand's wound who was the first person to actually try to learn his art of healing?

 

And why did androl go and seek pevara's help? and why was she so eager to help him out as well? you see my friend distrust that has been built up for 3,000 years is not easy to get rid off. but it will be dealth with. Men were responsible for breaking off the world. Now that saidin is clean there is no reason. But like all things it takes time to forge a relationship that was cut apart the moment men went mad 3000 years ago.

 

The aes sedai around rand's group have pretty much respected the ashaman. From the moment flinn healed those sisters stilled by rand. May be you should start re-reading the books again.

 

As for the black tower, every tom, dick and harry knows it's days are numbered. It will be destroyed pretty much in the first opening few chapters. The cesspit that rand left has allowed taim and his cronies to multiply and inflitrate an organisation that orginally was designed to gather male channellers under one group. And once it's destroyed you think ashaman will be content with a base in andor? not really. Because by the time the last battle is done, rand won't be around to be their leader anymore. taim will meet his end in AMOL. And logain will assume the leadership. And he will want equal footing with the female aes sedai. And his glory will be that. The first newly raised male aes sedai of the new age. And yes he and the rest of the ashaman would be moving in.

 

 

Everyone keeps talking about Avi's visions. we know visions are visions. part 1 of elaida's foretelling has passed. part 2 is coming up shortly. After that it will be nicola's foretelling. This whole WOT prediction business is getting too easy.

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Indeed. Egwene has come from humble origins to rise to the greatest political office of her Age, a very impressive achievement. What has LTT done that can compare? Taint the Source? Of course, Rand's achievements are impressive, but he was ta'veren, and the prophesied saviour. That subtracts from it somewhat - he had precious little choice.

One could argue the fact that Egwene is Amyrlin because of Rands Ta'veren, one of the first thing he says to her when he meets her, is that she had done her part, somewhat hinting towards the Wheel, and Rands need, for her to become Amyrlin. Could explain why one Aes Sedai after another seems to get the mental capacity of a 12 year old girl when they are around Egwene during key moments.

 

People Rand meet throughout the book gets forced into situation after having met him, that ultimately leads them to a place and time where they can help/aid Rand directly or indirectly, such as Bayle Domone ending up in Falme, Tanchico and later Ebou Dar.

 

 

fantastic.

 

Belittle egwene's achievements by calling her rivals simpletons.Not only that but what ever puny achievements is all due to rand's taveren nature. Genious!

 

I would say that he is an aes sedai, but a different kind of aes sedai, with no authority over the current ones. What I personally find interesting is that he is both aes sedai and ashaman.

 

The word ashaman or the organisation as a whole will gradually fade away leaving the aes sedai. If the circle is to turn back as it should be then we will have the aes sedai and aes sedai alone with both the male and female being part of one organisation. Shock horror.

 

 

 

Something I also found ironic in ToM was Rand telling Cadsuane that he is "the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised," while Egwene was never tested, and as of ToM claims she has no intention of ever taking the test. So who has more right to call themselves Aes Sedai?

 

The current crop of aes sedai are not the old aes sedai of last age. Everything has been changed. Rand is oldest surviving member of that organisation if you discount the forsaken. It also means that the ashaman will undergo a form of testing as well. who knows what that is. But egwene in my opinion should also undergo the test.

 

 

 

Yes, I have read the last books and here's what I remember:

 

I remember ashaman being blackmailed into letting themselves be bonded.

 

I remember aes sedai being bonded by force.

 

I remember aes sedai considering bonding an equal number of ashaman to be an unequal agreement.

 

I remember aes sedai still considering that the ashaman have to be controled despite the fact that they know the taint is gone.

 

I remember Androl thinking that the aes sedai had probably come to the BT to gentle them all not to bond them.

 

I remember Pevara not trusting Androl one bit when he showed up.

 

I remember it taking two of the most openminded ashaman and aes sedai, as well as a position of exteme danger for them to even consider working together.

 

I remember Elza saying it would take a long time for people to accept that the taint was gone.

 

I remember Silviana, one of the better reds, thinking that men are not to be trusted, despite the fact that the taint is gone.

 

I remember Egwene thinking that it was true enough for now, even though they would have to work past it one day.

 

I remember Logain being uneasy at there being so many aes sedai present compared to ashaman down in Tear in CoT.

 

 

What I certainly don't remember is any indication that people's mindsets have begun to change despite the fact that the taint is gone. Even the relationships between Merise and Narishma, and Corele and Flinn cannot be said to be completely equal.

 

The hatred aes sedai had for male channelers before the taint was gone was irrational, and I don't expect the aes sedai to start acting rational now. And I don't expect the ashaman to forget it either. The aes sedai don't even respect them, let alone trust them. So far nothing has changed since the cleansing of the taint. I don't expect a few more months or even a few more years to make a real difference either. To me thats not pessimistic, it's just realistic.

 

Also it took a very long time to construct the WT. I will take an equally long time to construct a new tower, whose construction probably hasn't continued since Elaida lost power.

 

Besides why should the ashaman attach themselves to an organisation that is losing power and influence?

 

the forced bondage if you recall was under the orders of taim to create more discord. You seem to forget the weeping aes sedai when poor eben got killed by aranger at cleansing. or the way narishma acts around his bonded aes sedai. when flinn healed rand's wound who was the first person to actually try to learn his art of healing?

 

And why did androl go and seek pevara's help? and why was she so eager to help him out as well? you see my friend distrust that has been built up for 3,000 years is not easy to get rid off. but it will be dealth with. Men were responsible for breaking off the world. Now that saidin is clean there is no reason. But like all things it takes time to forge a relationship that was cut apart the moment men went mad 3000 years ago.

 

The aes sedai around rand's group have pretty much respected the ashaman. From the moment flinn healed those sisters stilled by rand. May be you should start re-reading the books again.

 

As for the black tower, every tom, dick and harry knows it's days are numbered. It will be destroyed pretty much in the first opening few chapters. The cesspit that rand left has allowed taim and his cronies to multiply and inflitrate an organisation that orginally was designed to gather male channellers under one group. And once it's destroyed you think ashaman will be content with a base in andor? not really. Because by the time the last battle is done, rand won't be around to be their leader anymore. taim will meet his end in AMOL. And logain will assume the leadership. And he will want equal footing with the female aes sedai. And his glory will be that. The first newly raised male aes sedai of the new age. And yes he and the rest of the ashaman would be moving in.

 

 

Everyone keeps talking about Avi's visions. we know visions are visions. part 1 of elaida's foretelling has passed. part 2 is coming up shortly. After that it will be nicola's foretelling. This whole WOT prediction business is getting too easy.

 

On forced orders or not, the ashaman didn't seem to have a problem with doing it. Eben was her warder, of course she would weep for her death. Narishma has acted more or less like a servant around Merise, but Flinn's relationship with Corele is better. The aes sedai who wanted to learn his healing was, according to Cadsuane, the best aes sedai healer.

 

Androl went to seek Pevara's help because it was his last option, and she was definitely not eager, she had to be convinced by Androl. I agree it will take time, however a few months is nothing, especially considered with 3000 years during which they've hated each other.

 

The aes sedai around Rand are hardly good representatives of the entirety of the aes sedai are they? And even they still believe they are superior. A handful of aes sedai who have been around ashaman, and not the worst, for an extended amount of time have an okay opinion them. Let's see if that will pass so easely with the 700 (now that the blacks have been rooted out) others.

 

The BT could very well be rebuilt, and on more lasting foundations. Logain could tell Elayne that she has no authority in the BT and there's nothing she could do about it. Logain and the ashaman, in their pride, are unlikely to go to the WT asking to be their equals, they're going to earn that standing. And moving into what pray tell? Foundations of a tower?

 

I don't put any stock in Aviendha's vision. It's possible events in one possible futur, nothing more. Nicola's foretelling was of guardians and servants balancing each other out wasn't it? Well it will be hard to do that if the guardians become servants.

 

It will take 6 ages before we get back to the 2nd, the AoL. There's absolutely no reason to believe that other ages don't have ashaman instead of aes sedai, or both at the same time, or another group altogether. What is certain is that the Ashaman are proud of who they are, and they aren't likely to let that go as easely as you seem to believe.

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Indeed. Egwene has come from humble origins to rise to the greatest political office of her Age, a very impressive achievement. What has LTT done that can compare? Taint the Source? Of course, Rand's achievements are impressive, but he was ta'veren, and the prophesied saviour. That subtracts from it somewhat - he had precious little choice.
One could argue the fact that Egwene is Amyrlin because of Rands Ta'veren, one of the first thing he says to her when he meets her, is that she had done her part, somewhat hinting towards the Wheel, and Rands need, for her to become Amyrlin. Could explain why one Aes Sedai after another seems to get the mental capacity of a 12 year old girl when they are around Egwene during key moments.

 

People Rand meet throughout the book gets forced into situation after having met him, that ultimately leads them to a place and time where they can help/aid Rand directly or indirectly, such as Bayle Domone ending up in Falme, Tanchico and later Ebou Dar.

One could argue that Egwene got where she did due to Rand's ta'maral'ailen, but there isn't a huge amount of evidence to support it. The characters in general (just like real people) often make stupid decisions - this can't all be considered due to Rand being ta'veren, surely? Even if Rand eblieves that Egwene becoming Amyrlin is due to the Wheel making it so, that doesn't mean he is correct.

 

 

Besides why should the ashaman attach themselves to an organisation that is losing power and influence?

Because female channelers are the only ones who'll live nearly as long as Asha'man, now that the Taint is gone. Even if Aes Sedai will only live 300 years thanks to the Oath Rod, that's still two centuries more than a non-channeler wife who will age at a normal rate and die at 80-90. The Kin are too old, the Sea Folk and Wise Ones probably not interested in shorebound/wetlander men.

The Kin cover a wide range of ages, unless you think the Tower stopped putting girls out at some stage?

 

 

She is head of the AS, he is not AS at all, despite having memories of being head of a now long defunct organisation. First Among Servants isn't a recognised position among modern AS, any more than Holy Roman Emperor is among modern Germans.

Ordinarily I wouldn't think that people have any right to titles held in a previous life, but Rand is a different case, IMO. He is LTT, albeit in a different body.

 

Something I also found ironic in ToM was Rand telling Cadsuane that he is "the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised," while Egwene was never tested, and as of ToM claims she has no intention of ever taking the test. So who has more right to call themselves Aes Sedai?

Egwene, clearly - the law states that the Amyrlin is AS, and she was raised according to the law. First Among Servants is no longer a title recognised by the AS, nor is the method by which he was raised - that is, if they are considered the same organisation. Therefore, he can claim that he was the FAS, but not that he is. He was an AS, he is no longer.
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Indeed. Egwene has come from humble origins to rise to the greatest political office of her Age, a very impressive achievement. What has LTT done that can compare? Taint the Source? Of course, Rand's achievements are impressive, but he was ta'veren, and the prophesied saviour. That subtracts from it somewhat - he had precious little choice.
One could argue the fact that Egwene is Amyrlin because of Rands Ta'veren, one of the first thing he says to her when he meets her, is that she had done her part, somewhat hinting towards the Wheel, and Rands need, for her to become Amyrlin. Could explain why one Aes Sedai after another seems to get the mental capacity of a 12 year old girl when they are around Egwene during key moments.

 

People Rand meet throughout the book gets forced into situation after having met him, that ultimately leads them to a place and time where they can help/aid Rand directly or indirectly, such as Bayle Domone ending up in Falme, Tanchico and later Ebou Dar.

One could argue that Egwene got where she did due to Rand's ta'maral'ailen, but there isn't a huge amount of evidence to support it. The characters in general (just like real people) often make stupid decisions - this can't all be considered due to Rand being ta'veren, surely? Even if Rand eblieves that Egwene becoming Amyrlin is due to the Wheel making it so, that doesn't mean he is correct.

 

 

Besides why should the ashaman attach themselves to an organisation that is losing power and influence?

Because female channelers are the only ones who'll live nearly as long as Asha'man, now that the Taint is gone. Even if Aes Sedai will only live 300 years thanks to the Oath Rod, that's still two centuries more than a non-channeler wife who will age at a normal rate and die at 80-90. The Kin are too old, the Sea Folk and Wise Ones probably not interested in shorebound/wetlander men.

The Kin cover a wide range of ages, unless you think the Tower stopped putting girls out at some stage?

 

 

She is head of the AS, he is not AS at all, despite having memories of being head of a now long defunct organisation. First Among Servants isn't a recognised position among modern AS, any more than Holy Roman Emperor is among modern Germans.

Ordinarily I wouldn't think that people have any right to titles held in a previous life, but Rand is a different case, IMO. He is LTT, albeit in a different body.

 

Something I also found ironic in ToM was Rand telling Cadsuane that he is "the only male Aes Sedai still alive who was properly raised," while Egwene was never tested, and as of ToM claims she has no intention of ever taking the test. So who has more right to call themselves Aes Sedai?

Egwene, clearly - the law states that the Amyrlin is AS, and she was raised according to the law. First Among Servants is no longer a title recognised by the AS, nor is the method by which he was raised - that is, if they are considered the same organisation. Therefore, he can claim that he was the FAS, but not that he is. He was an AS, he is no longer.

 

This argument stands many universally recognized rules of law on their head. If there is continuity between AoL Aes Sedai and the contemporary ones, then Rand's status both as an Aes Sedai and as a First Among Servants have to be recognized. When you change a procedure for awarding a certain title or the conditions for obtaining it - it can't affect the titles already bestowed upon people. You know, lex retro non agit and all that...

 

It is even more so when we take into account that the Aes Sedai themselves derive their authority from the AoL Aes Sedai. They use the same name, they claim the right to sa'angreal and ter'angreal produced by the "original" Aes Sedai, the Amyrlin uses certain titles that point the same way (Watcher of the Seals). The Flame of Tar Valon is a part of an ancient symbol of Aes Sedai. So, if there is no continuity between "old" and "new" Aes Sedai, then the "new" are commiting a lot of infrignments on the rights of the "old" and they should be giving back to Rand all these sa'angreal and ter'angreal and probably change their name too:smile:

 

It is a different thing what are the consequences of these titles nowadays - the Aes Sedai could arguably tell Rand that the First Among Servants no longer has the authority that he had because of organizational changes, but the least they owe him is recognition and respect for his title. If he has no present formal authority, then his status should be similiar to that of a former president.

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One could argue the fact that Egwene is Amyrlin because of Rands Ta'veren, one of the first thing he says to her when he meets her, is that she had done her part, somewhat hinting towards the Wheel, and Rands need, for her to become Amyrlin. Could explain why one Aes Sedai after another seems to get the mental capacity of a 12 year old girl when they are around Egwene during key moments.

 

People Rand meet throughout the book gets forced into situation after having met him, that ultimately leads them to a place and time where they can help/aid Rand directly or indirectly, such as Bayle Domone ending up in Falme, Tanchico and later Ebou Dar.

One could argue that Egwene got where she did due to Rand's ta'maral'ailen, but there isn't a huge amount of evidence to support it. The characters in general (just like real people) often make stupid decisions - this can't all be considered due to Rand being ta'veren, surely? Even if Rand eblieves that Egwene becoming Amyrlin is due to the Wheel making it so, that doesn't mean he is correct.

 

Of course not, just idle speculations, but consider what Mat, a weaker Ta'veren, where capable of doing. Dragging Verin half way across the world, who knows what Rand is capable of doing. There is also the part of Mins viewing back in TGH where she mentions Egwene and the Flame of Tar Valon, could of course be a reference to her becoming an Aes Sedai, but it would be a bit odd if that were the case, since she never mentioned something similar for Elayne. Ta'verens are bound tightly to the pattern and the will of the wheel, all 3 of them have tried to avoid their fate, but each time they've been forced back into it, and people who get in contact with them, gets consciously or unconsciously thrown into situations where they are capable of aiding the 3 Ta'verens the most in their "job" to correct the flaws in the pattern.

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Egwene, clearly - the law states that the Amyrlin is AS, and she was raised according to the law.

Egwene became Aes Sedai thanks to a loophole that wasn't intended to replace the usual process. She hasn't learned the one hundred weaves and refuses to prove herself the way every other Aes Sedai has. Every Accepted will know that when they're forced to learn the difficult weaves and take the test; every Accepted who fails will leave the Tower knowing Egwene gets to stay without having passed. Even with the current Cult of Egwene Worship in the Tower, that's bound to cause resentment down the line.

 

Egwene's participation in Nynaeve's hazing/testing made her seem even more like a hypocrite--for the sake of politics, she made Nynaeve pay a price she herself isn't willing to pay.

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Egwene, clearly - the law states that the Amyrlin is AS, and she was raised according to the law.

Egwene became Aes Sedai thanks to a loophole that wasn't intended to replace the usual process. She hasn't learned the one hundred weaves and refuses to prove herself the way every other Aes Sedai has. Every Accepted will know that when they're forced to learn the difficult weaves and take the test; every Accepted who fails will leave the Tower knowing Egwene gets to stay without having passed. Even with the current Cult of Egwene Worship in the Tower, that's bound to cause resentment down the line.

 

Egwene's participation in Nynaeve's hazing/testing made her seem even more like a hypocrite--for the sake of politics, she made Nynaeve pay a price she herself isn't willing to pay.

The fact that they rebelled because they felt Elaida's raising violated the spirit of the law, if not the letter, makes their raising of Egwene even more mind-boggling, since it violates the spirit of the law to a far greater degree. It is pretty obvious that they didn't specify that the Amyrlin had to be AS because it went without saying. Does the law even specify that the Amyrlin has to be a channeller? Or female? Or human, for that matter?

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Egwene, clearly - the law states that the Amyrlin is AS, and she was raised according to the law.

Egwene became Aes Sedai thanks to a loophole that wasn't intended to replace the usual process. She hasn't learned the one hundred weaves and refuses to prove herself the way every other Aes Sedai has. Every Accepted will know that when they're forced to learn the difficult weaves and take the test; every Accepted who fails will leave the Tower knowing Egwene gets to stay without having passed. Even with the current Cult of Egwene Worship in the Tower, that's bound to cause resentment down the line.

 

Egwene's participation in Nynaeve's hazing/testing made her seem even more like a hypocrite--for the sake of politics, she made Nynaeve pay a price she herself isn't willing to pay.

The fact that they rebelled because they felt Elaida's raising violated the spirit of the law, if not the letter, makes their raising of Egwene even more mind-boggling, since it violates the spirit of the law to a far greater degree. It is pretty obvious that they didn't specify that the Amyrlin had to be AS because it went without saying. Does the law even specify that the Amyrlin has to be a channeller? Or female? Or human, for that matter?

 

I feel that in this case, what's done is done. There's no point to going back on it, or to put her legitimacy as aes sedai in question. Of course it might leave a bitter taste in the mouthes of all those who do have to take the test, but there's no doubt that Egwene has proven her worth and her right to the title of aes sedai, and amrylin, and far more than nearly all other aes sedai.

 

Of course it isn't really fair to Nyneave and Elayne, and yes it was clearly to protect herself politically that she made Nyneave take the test, however to me that's a reason to dislike Egwene, not a reason to put her legitimacy as aes sedai in question.

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I would say that he is an aes sedai, but a different kind of aes sedai, with no authority over the current ones. What I personally find interesting is that he is both aes sedai and ashaman.

 

The word ashaman or the organisation as a whole will gradually fade away leaving the aes sedai. If the circle is to turn back as it should be then we will have the aes sedai and aes sedai alone with both the male and female being part of one organisation. Shock horror.

 

Even though I don't think channeling will disappear in the 4th age, channeling will disappear during an age before the 1st. There's no channeling in our current age, and it's assumed by a lot of people that the 1st age is our age (although it could also be the beginning of the 2nd age or maybe the 7th age).

 

There's no reason to assume that the Aes Sedai & Asha'man will become one before the next AOL & considering there's a time without channeling before the AOL, it's safe to assume that the entire order will be reinvented as soon as people learn to channel again.

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I feel that in this case, what's done is done. There's no point to going back on it, or to put her legitimacy as aes sedai in question.

It would bother me less if Egwene hadn't claimed a few weeks earlier in TGS that she would take the test, only to do a complete turnaround once she got back to the Tower:

 

"Let it no longer be thought that I can avoid keeping the Three Oaths," Egwene announced. "Let it no longer be breathed that I am not fully Aes Sedai." None of them said anything about her not having taken the test to gain the shawl. She would see to that another day.
Egwene had no intention of going through the testing herself, and didn't need to. The law was specific. By being made Amyrlin, she had become Aes Sedai. Things weren't as clear in regards to Nynaeve and the others that Egwene had raised.

Of course it isn't really fair to Nyneave and Elayne, and yes it was clearly to protect herself politically that she made Nyneave take the test, however to me that's a reason to dislike Egwene, not a reason to put her legitimacy as aes sedai in question.

I don't think it was wrong of Egwene to make them take the test (Nynaeve even volunteered), but I do think Egwene is at least morally obliged to take it as well, in particular in the light of her behavior during Nynaeve's testing. She shouldn't favor her friends, but neither should an Amyrlin allow a Tower initiate to be subjected to hazing for the sake of political gain, let alone participate in it.

 

Not saying Egwene is turning into Elaida, but at times there are interesting parallels between them. In NS, Elaida was the one who created the final, cruelest test where Moiraine was asked to stay behind to see her dying mother. In ToM, Egwene plays that role; she was the who created both tests where Nynaeve had to choose between failing the test or leaving a loved one behind to die. In TGS, Egwene also berates Elaida for considering making the AS swear to her, without sparing a thought to her own sworn AS. On that level, Egwene's character doesn't seem so unrealistic...she's like a young politician intent on changing the system who then comes into power and begins to resemble the same kind of people s/he previously condemned. Who knows, she might even get some sort of peace prize after Rand ta'verens her into signing the treaty at the FoM. :wink:

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On that level, Egwene's character doesn't seem so unrealistic...she's like a young politician intent on changing the system who then comes into power and begins to resemble the same kind of people s/he previously condemned. Who knows, she might even get some sort of peace prize after Rand ta'verens her into signing the treaty at the FoM. :wink:

 

Egwene as the Mayor Carcetti of WOT. I can get behind that idea.

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On that level, Egwene's character doesn't seem so unrealistic...she's like a young politician intent on changing the system who then comes into power and begins to resemble the same kind of people s/he previously condemned. Who knows, she might even get some sort of peace prize after Rand ta'verens her into signing the treaty at the FoM. :wink:

 

Egwene as the Mayor Carcetti of WOT. I can get behind that idea.

+1. So who is Clay Davis?

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You all agree on the mechanics of what happens but are arguing over the accuracy of the terminology. While this is pretyy much a waste of energy at the best of times, it's particularly pointless in the Egwene thread.

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Since Egwene always invades other threads, isn't it fair that her thread for many posts contain not a word on, you know, Egwene? :tongue:

 

I admire the discussion that has been going about LTT/Rand/rebirth/same soul/different person, bit it seems it is a litte bit like a discussion about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. I personally don't really understand this one soul/different personalities thing. Is soul just some formless elan vital that can be anything before it becomes a certain "person"? And after that it could be somebody totally different?

 

I get the arguments and saw RJ's quotes, but it still hardly makes sense when we read that Rand gets better when he decides that he is LTT. And there are not only memories - it's also the way of speaking, behaviour patterns, eyes, voice...

 

Didn't Egwene say he spoke like an educated person? The memories experienced "like a dream" wouldn't account for that. There was some amalgamation of personalities that happened and it was more LTT "adding" Rand al'Thor to his previous self than the other way around, at least it seems so in ToM.

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And yes I know she didn't want Rand to "force her hand". But we don't really know what she meant by that. Whatever it is, I'm pretty sure she doesn't mean to capture him and take him to the White Tower or anything like that. Egwene isn't stupid.

 

 

She could try to shield him..considering Rand's True Power ability she would get burned to a crisp along with her moronic Aes Sedai.

 

Thankfully after the last battle..we have the Ash'man to pull the Aes Sedai down whenever that is needed.

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Would you have her simply ignore the fact that he came into her seat of power, and announced that he was freeing the dark one?

 

She had to take a stance. And she made the right one with the knowledge she had.

 

And could she not have waited to have additional knowledge (which Rand said he would give her) before taking a stance? She still could have done everything she has done. She just wouldn't be making an instinctive decision.

 

No.

 

He basically showed no respect for her or the tower's authority, and said he was breaking the seals. And you want her to do nothing for a month? And when they get more info what can they do if they are right? They be unprepared to do anything?

 

The rest of the tower fears him. They consider him warbringing, murdering, madman. Do you think they would stand to sit back and do nothing while he destroys the world? There would be a new person on the seat by the end of the day. And who ever they picked would not trust him an inch.

 

 

Why should he show her any more respect that he shows Taim and the balck tower. The Aes Sedai are at the same level as the Ash'man and the Dragon is above both of them.

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