Rand and Egwene at the FOM

[SuperFade]

Wishing death upon a fictional character makes someone a psycopath with extreme issues? Wow, I guess that means most of the population are head cases then, because I highly doubt there's anyone here or anywhere who hasn't wished a fictional character would die horribly before. Generalising like that with no evidence to back yourself up is very foolish. Many people here have valid reasons to dislike or even *gasp* hate Egwene. She is the most polarizing figure in the WoT and people are entitled to their opinions on her, however extreme they may be.

[Sleeper]

Wishing death upon a fictional character makes someone a psycopath with extreme issues? Wow, I guess that means most of the population are head cases then, because I highly doubt there's anyone here or anywhere who hasn't wished a fictional character would die horribly before. Generalising like that with no evidence to back yourself up is very foolish. Many people here have valid reasons to dislike or even *gasp* hate Egwene. She is the most polarizing figure in the WoT and people are entitled to their opinions on her, however extreme they may be.

This good fellow speaks the truth. I've wished a brutal and horrifying death upon many a person, both fictional and real. It's an inability to distinguish between the fantasy and the reality that would make thoughts like those a problem.

[anotherfingolfin]

Seriously, people throwing about words like psychopath don't really understand what it means. Either that, or their usage of it at other posters, says as much about them as they think certain peoples' opinions on Egwene say about them.

If neither, and they were just using psychopath as hyberbole, then they are just really rude.

[JKN-SW]

Wishing death upon a fictional character makes someone a psycopath with extreme issues? Wow, I guess that means most of the population are head cases then, because I highly doubt there's anyone here or anywhere who hasn't wished a fictional character would die horribly before. Generalising like that with no evidence to back yourself up is very foolish. Many people here have valid reasons to dislike or even *gasp* hate Egwene. She is the most polarizing figure in the WoT and people are entitled to their opinions on her, however extreme they may be.

 

Agreed. Calling someone a psycopath is even worse imo, as you are adressing real people and not a fictional figure.

 

On a side note, this whole discussion is a great homage to RJ. What a gift to be able to stir theese strong feelings with people through writing a story. It's pretty amazing when you think about it.

[Puny]

Wishing death upon a fictional character makes someone a psycopath with extreme issues? Wow, I guess that means most of the population are head cases then, because I highly doubt there's anyone here or anywhere who hasn't wished a fictional character would die horribly before. Generalising like that with no evidence to back yourself up is very foolish. Many people here have valid reasons to dislike or even *gasp* hate Egwene. She is the most polarizing figure in the WoT and people are entitled to their opinions on her, however extreme they may be.

This good fellow speaks the truth. I've wished a brutal and horrifying death upon many a person, both fictional and real. It's an inability to distinguish between the fantasy and the reality that would make thoughts like those a problem.

+1.

 

But I do understand what if you mean, say I was a character in the book or the WoT was for real =O then balefire would be extreme, I do understand what Carnivean means, but we as outsiders, readers of the book may very well want her to be balefired. It´s their opinion.

[randsc]

while balefire is an very extreme responce, most people have very valid reasons for wanting egwene to fall off her high horse

I don't like Politician X's policy, where's my fissionable material, it's dirty bomb time.

 

Are you completely unable to read what I said in the post you quoted? The extremeness is exactly the problem.

 

 

People are so "extreme" in (obviously jokingly) calling for the death of a fictional character that you call those posters, actual people, psychopaths?

 

Do they have this thing called "irony" where you live?

[Zentari]

Perhaps. But the way they express it is hardly valid. It often comes across as real hatred which to me says more about them rather than Egwene.

I was unaware that it required a certified method to express it.I assume that somehow you are certified to judge so , correct ?

Because otherwise, it would be just your opinion and so I can't argue with it because arguing about opinions is like jumping off a bridge to see whose bungee cord stretches further. The winner is usually the one with a headache.

 

while balefire is an very extreme responce, most people have very valid reasons for wanting egwene to fall off her high horse

I don't like Politician X's policy, where's my fissionable material, it's dirty bomb time.

 

Are you completely unable to read what I said in the post you quoted? The extremeness is exactly the problem.

It isn't actually, you just make it out to be.

[aclund3]

This thread long enough yet, sandoz12? ;)

[sandoz12]

This thread long enough yet, sandoz12? ;)

I think that point got awhile ago

[Stitch]

I certainly hope you dont hate Semirhage, or Ishamael, or Moghedien, or Fain or the Dark One, or that rapist mudering captain of Elayne's guard (forget his name).... I hope you dont want to read about any of them getting killed or humilitated.... that would surely make you a psychopath. True Egwene isn't at that end of the spectrum, but neither is getting spanked the same as getting a shot of Balefire in the head.

 

But in any case, I would certainly welcome Egwene and Aes Sedai in general getting humbled at the FoM and given how public the scene (or at least the outcome of the scene) will be, it is likely to be something that serves as a reality check (Aes Sedai dont rule the world) which in itself is likely to be embarrassing (since Aes Sedai dont take well to anything that contradicts them, even if it is simple fact, because of how they have made the white tower *cough*house*cough* out to be the center of truth and power).

[Hopefire]

Whether or people who want Egwene dead are psychopaths, I think that it's clear that people who agree with her positions and methods are sociopaths!

 

 

 

 

(Note: that was a joke. No real implication of sociopathic tendencies was intended.)

[Elan Tedronai]

It has been a while since I read ToM so I may have forgot but does everyone really thing Egwene would oppose Rand if he came up with a solid plan? She was trying to discuss breaking the seals, Rand was the one who refused and walked away. Guess it'll be ok though...I mean Min does have her head in those old books.

 

your comments are waasted on the people here blinded by the dragon love.

 

The lord dragon is reduced to asking his farm gilr lover to look for ways of sealing the bore. Something in his might and wisdom ought to know. Then he proceeds to walk to the hall of the aes sedai and tells them yeah i am gonna smash the seals and start tarmon gaidon. And yeah i have no idea on what to do next.

 

 

And egwene naturally goes WTF? No we have to plan. Then the lord dragon just says um yeah later and walks away.

 

If this is zen rand way's of thinking then i all i do is laugh really

[White_star]

 

your comments are waasted on the people here blinded by the dragon love.

Just as these are probably wasted on people w/ Egwene glasses on. Excess emotion often makes it hard to see things objectively, I agree.

 

The lord dragon is reduced to asking his farm girl lover to look for ways of sealing the bore.

1.she's not a farm girl and she's proven to him she's not some fluff-brain flip-skirt

 

2.he trusts her 100%

 

3.he knows she reads from the books which belonged Master Fel, (the man Rand went to for information himself) and she's obviously understanding them

 

Something in his might and wisdom ought to know.

Nobody is calling him "Superman" not even himself. He knows something of what needs to be done but there is still something missing which is what he wants Min to find. That doesn't mean she will, Moiraine may show up w/ the information he needs, but what he needs he usually gets-that's just how Taveren works.

 

Then he proceeds to walk to the hall of the aes sedai and tells them yeah i am gonna smash the seals and start tarmon gaidon. And yeah i have no idea on what to do next.

The wheel weaves as the wheel wills and it may not have been time for him to know this yet.

 

And egwene naturally goes WTF? No we have to plan. Then the lord dragon just says um yeah later and walks away.

 

If this is zen rand way's of thinking then i all i do is laugh really

It's his way of manipulating her into doing what he knows she is good at to do something he has no time for.

[Seeker Matt]

Excuse me , please , if I reply by question on question , but are there anyone aside me in all WoT fandom , who stay with Egwene ? Why this site shows them both in front of their allies on starting page if almost no one see them as equal ?

 

How are they equal? Rand is the Dragon Reborn and has become the Champion of the Light whereas Egwene is the leader of one fraction of female channelers.

 

*

 

I doubt Eqwene will oppose Rand on the FoM.

 

Unfortunately I also doubt that there will be any kind of agreement for equal representation and recognition of male and female channelers as it was in the AoL, with the Dragon's fang and Flame of Tar Valon joined once more - other events will likely intervene. I doubt that the next age or even the age after the LB will see it as I suspect the one power may be a victim of the LB.

[Elvira_Sedai]

How are they equal? Rand is the Dragon Reborn and has become the Champion of the Light whereas Egwene is the leader of one fraction of female channelers.

 

Their roles are not the same , but their sugnificience is equal . Save the world from DO's taint and consolidate all for preventing new Breaking are compairable tasks . And , as I said in previous post , the creators of this site , who are team Jordan inner circle , post Rand and Egwene in front of other characters on 1st page , so , I guess , it was RJ's personal opinion ( them as equal ) . Also , Egwene and Rand are characters with the most number of PoVs throut all others .

[Barid Bel Medar]

There isnt going to BE a real Egwene V Rand.

 

Rand got her to do what he wanted her to, and he is going to bind them all with the Dragon's Peace.

 

Thats the only reason Rand is meeting with everyone.

 

As soon as he does that, he wont much care.

 

Of course, he will try and reason with Egwene, and explain himself. And even try to sort out the "problems" she has with him, like the Asha'man.

 

But there wont be a big Rand v Egwene brawl unless Egwene is stupid enough to try and shield and capture him. Which, to her credit, she isnt.

 

Oh, she will fume and rant that he didnt do what she wants, but she is not a fool. She will see sense.

 

The only reason she opposes him is because he wants her to. He wanted her to gather the armies of the world, counted on it, in fact, as he mentions in his ToM epilogue PoV. When it is actually revealed what Rand is actually doing, she will understand.

 

The REAL conflict will be the Seanchan attacking. I think that Rand and Egwene will band together to first pacify them, then create the Dragons peace.

 

Edit: IF it does somehow come down to a side v side, everyone will side with Rand. Simply because he is much smarter, he has the memories of LTT, his evidence is compelling, the need to break the seals etc.. But even that does not matter. Ta'veren will do what needs to be done. Rand needs to break the seals, so if anyone interferes, they will either realise they are wrong, or the pattern will bend around people to defend Rand and make it happen.

 

Rand alone would be Ta'veren enough. But with Perrin and most likely Mat there on his side, there is no way anyone could hope to successfully deny the will of the pattern and three Ta'veren. It may sound pompous and stupid. Rant about it all you want, if you dont like it. But it is simple fact. If the pattern wants it to happen, and has 3 taveren working towards that goal, nothing barring the DO can stop it.

 

Obviously, I am talking about the Light sided characters. If there is a Forsaken or DF's involved, the situation is complicated much more.

[Lujen]

Let's see here:

Rand: "I'm going to break the seals"

Perrin: "I agree with him"

 

What chance do any of them have when 2 Ta'veren want the same thing.

 

I still hope Rand "force's" Egwenes hand and it all backfires on her

[Kahsm]

Something in his might and wisdom ought to know.

Nobody is calling him "Superman" not even himself. He knows something of what needs to be done but there is still something missing which is what he wants Min to find. That doesn't mean she will, Moiraine may show up w/ the information he needs, but what he needs he usually gets-that's just how Taveren works.

 

Clearly you have not read any other "Why didn't Egwene, a woman who's now responsible for not only Aes Sedai, but safeguarding the world, and maintaining the peace of nations, instantly do what Rand wanted despite the fact it would obviously sound crazy from anyone and especially someone believed to be literally -- insane!"

 

I paraphrased the title a bit. But the point stands. MANY readers find Rand infallible, or if not, that at least the other characters should all treat him as if he was. Cadsuane has the same issues. And Perrin is not the Amyrlin and a terrible comparison, he's basically been Rand's sworn man from day 1, even more than Mat. Egwene, on the other hand, believes she has the whole pattern to safeguard. And before you trash her for riding such a high horse, Siuan and Moir believed the same.

[Hopefire]

I paraphrased the title a bit. But the point stands. MANY readers find Rand infallible, or if not, that at least the other characters should all treat him as if he was. Cadsuane has the same issues. And Perrin is not the Amyrlin and a terrible comparison, he's basically been Rand's sworn man from day 1, even more than Mat. Egwene, on the other hand, believes she has the whole pattern to safeguard. And before you trash her for riding such a high horse, Siuan and Moir believed the same.

 

Trust no woman fully who is now Aes Sedai. I do not speak simply of the Black Ajah, though you must always be watchful for them. Be as suspicious of Verin as you are of Alviarin. We have made the world dance as we sang for three thousand years. That is a difficult habit to break, as I have learned while dancing to your song. You must dance free, and even the best intentioned of my sisters may well try to guide your steps as I once did.

-Moiraine

 

Moiraine definitely believed the same at the start, but her shift to realizing that Rand's path was guided by the Pattern started even as early as The Great Hunt, where she let Rand roam free of her for a time.

[mb]

The Light-sided people that have not yet talked about breaking the Seals, I guess they would be undecided at first.

After listening to either or both "sides", some might support Rand (that the Seals should be broken) and some might support Egwene (that the Seals shouldn't be broken); others would not care one way or the other.

 

As far as I am aware, none of these talked about it with anyone::

-the other taveren

-Rand's channeling lovers

 

Perrin and Mat might support Rand after Rand explains his reasons.

 

Rand's lovers, might support because of their love for him.

 

 

Though like I posted in a earlier post in this thread, Rand might let various people speak (one at a time) and might be persuaded by some of them.

[WhiskyJack]

Rand be like, don't be a light blinded fool Egwene, for old times, just do it.

[Apple13]

The last time Rand tried to get his ta'veren-ness to seal an important Truce deal, he failed. I don't think it would be a "learning experience" for him if he tries the same thing with Egwene, when he failed with Tuon.

 

Also, don't forget, many of the monarchs of the world are leaning slightly towards Egwene at this point. To make all those important people sign a deal through pure taveren magic, is just going to create a "forced" Peace, and that'll fall apart quite easily at the first chance.

 

I think the way the Peace will come about is through people mediating between Rand and Egwene. I think Mat, Moiraine, Aviendha etc. might play an important part in that.

[DemandredFO]

They're pretending to lean toward Egwene, but who knows if they really think that. One of the many reasons I doubt Egwene will be rational is in The Amarlyn's anger Rand said last time I tried to seal the bore I failed. Now even seeing he seemed different she jumped immediately to he's mad, and talked to him like a daft child. She didn't ask why did you say that? I do agree that they can't Taveren a peace treaty because they aren't Aiel. Bael and Jeron were taverened into mending the bloodfued, but even if Rand told them exactly what happened, they'd hold to water oath.

[USURP888]

The last time Rand tried to get his ta'veren-ness to seal an important Truce deal, he failed. I don't think it would be a "learning experience" for him if he tries the same thing with Egwene, when he failed with Tuon.

 

Also, don't forget, many of the monarchs of the world are leaning slightly towards Egwene at this point. To make all those important people sign a deal through pure taveren magic, is just going to create a "forced" Peace, and that'll fall apart quite easily at the first chance.

 

I think the way the Peace will come about is through people mediating between Rand and Egwene. I think Mat, Moiraine, Aviendha etc. might play an important part in that.

 

 

Egwene was not able to resist Rand's Ta'veren effect when they met in Tar Valon, after Rand left the hall Egwene felt dizzy. That is the symptom of Ta'veren affecting someone. Rand needed Egwene to resist so she will gather all the light's forces together, I don't think Egwene csn resist the Ta'veren effect at the FOM especially if Mat and Perrin sides with Rand.

[USURP888]

 

Clearly you have not read any other "Why didn't Egwene, a woman who's now responsible for not only Aes Sedai, but safeguarding the world, and maintaining the peace of nations, instantly do what Rand wanted despite the fact it would obviously sound crazy from anyone and especially someone believed to be literally -- insane!"

 

I paraphrased the title a bit. But the point stands. MANY readers find Rand infallible, or if not, that at least the other characters should all treat him as if he was. Cadsuane has the same issues. And Perrin is not the Amyrlin and a terrible comparison, he's basically been Rand's sworn man from day 1, even more than Mat. Egwene, on the other hand, believes she has the whole pattern to safeguard. And before you trash her for riding such a high horse, Siuan and Moir believed the same.

 

Isn't that Rand's job? isn't he the one fated to die to SAVE the pattern? shouldn't the one that's gonna do the fighting have some say on how he does it? I personally don't think Egwene and Rand are on equal footing here. The whole world, even the Seanchan recognize Rand as the Dragon Reborn and is needed to battle the Dark One.

 

Egwene is a leader, a great leader of the AS. She is not the leader of ALL the female channellers - not the Aiel channelers, not the windfinders. Egwene does not speak for the other half, the male channellers as well. Egwene certainly does not speak for the Seanchan, who already control half of Randland and are about to launch an all out attack on Tar Valon as well. Prior to the Dragon Reborn's reemergence, the AS were the primary power in the land. The rulers in Randland listen to them not just out of respect ( though there are plenty of respect I am sure ) but also out of fear. They maintain the peace of nation depending on where their interest lies. Remember what Siuan Sanche did to Gareth Bryne humiliating a Great Captain because his plans might be in conflict with the plans of AS. They will undermine a monarch or even invite them as guest ( kidnap ) if the rulers of a kingdom do not listen to them. Think of Mattin Stephanos and King Alsalam. Egwene speaks only for the AS, she has an influential voice because Tar Valon has been the primary political power since the breaking but that does not mean she speaks for everyone else.