How was it that Rand had so much power in VoG?

[lenardo]

remember lanfear and other forsaken were saying that the current AS are barely halftrained...

 

rand is one of the most powerful(if not The most powerful) Male channelers in existance

is ta'veren and -due to the dragonmount scene, he has all the memories AND training of lews therin.

 

thus he can do what most other males- nonforsaken- cannot do, because he Has the Knowledge from the age of legends.

[Thor]

No. What part of he has done the same thing at Cairhien can't you understand? He destroyed far more people from that stupid tower on that day.

[Ash Hopwill]

No. What part of he has done the same thing at Cairhien can't you understand? He destroyed far more people from that stupid tower on that day.

 

 

i disagree. . . and yeah its just my opinion and subjective etc.

 

Rand was kicking ass at Cairhien (sp?) but he wasnt using anywhere near the same amount of power or weaves as maradon.

 

bit of lighting here and there with aiel doing alot of work compared to one man, two maidens to watch and he wipes the whole army out, or near enough.

[Lews_Windu]

Comparing what Rand did at Cairhien to what he pulled at Malden is like comparing a 1,000 pound laser-guided bomb to a 50 megaton nuclear warhead. Same concept, yes, but one blows up a skyscraper and the other vaporizes small countries.

 

Cairhien:

-Rand wasn't the only one channeling

-Channeling didn't win the battle, it was only a part of the strategy

 

Malden:

-Rand was the only one channeling

-Rand was the only one fighting by that point

-Rand's channeling wiped out the entire army

 

 

Rand also did not have any aid whatsoever at Malden. He did what he did completely alone. There are two possible explanations for this:

 

1) He was utilizing LTT's memories/training, which would mean that LTT was capable of doing the same thing during the War of Power.

 

I don't like this because it doesn't fit with what we know of the Forsaken. Ishymori and Demandred are stated to be second only to LTT- and yet we've never seen anything approaching Malden from either of them, or the implication that they could do so if they wanted. There are several moments where using such power would have been in Ishymori's best interests- the Cleansing chief among them. If he had that kind of power, he could have simply melted the entire area or soaked in balefire.

 

2) The same force that protects Rand from insanity has also increased his ability to channel.

 

I like this one because it accounts for everything Rand does in ToM- the shining sun, the food, being able to sense Darkfriends and drive them to insanity.

[herid]

Comparing what Rand did at Cairhien to what he pulled at Malden is like comparing a 1,000 pound laser-guided bomb to a 50 megaton nuclear warhead. Same concept, yes, but one blows up a skyscraper and the other vaporizes small countries.

 

Cairhien:

-Rand wasn't the only one channeling

-Channeling didn't win the battle, it was only a part of the strategy

 

Malden:

-Rand was the only one channeling

-Rand was the only one fighting by that point

-Rand's channeling wiped out the entire army

 

 

Rand also did not have any aid whatsoever at Malden. He did what he did completely alone. There are two possible explanations for this:

 

1) He was utilizing LTT's memories/training, which would mean that LTT was capable of doing the same thing during the War of Power.

 

I don't like this because it doesn't fit with what we know of the Forsaken. Ishymori and Demandred are stated to be second only to LTT- and yet we've never seen anything approaching Malden from either of them, or the implication that they could do so if they wanted. There are several moments where using such power would have been in Ishymori's best interests- the Cleansing chief among them. If he had that kind of power, he could have simply melted the entire area or soaked in balefire.

 

2) The same force that protects Rand from insanity has also increased his ability to channel.

 

I like this one because it accounts for everything Rand does in ToM- the shining sun, the food, being able to sense Darkfriends and drive them to insanity.

Make that Maradon instead of Malden and I agree with everything you said.

One other possible explanation has been offered - that Rand was using a powerful sa'angreal, possibly Callandor, in Maradon. I don't believe it could be Callandor (that's discussed above) and we haven't seen any other sa'angreal of comparable strength. Lanfear did mention something that might imply that one such existed but there has been no trace of it anywhere. Also, when Rand was visiting Egwene he surely didn't have any sa'angreal with him and yet he seemed sure that he could break the sheild on him if he had to and Egwene thought so too. This lends extra support to the idea that he is much stronger in the OP post VoG by a very large margin.

[Mordaunt]

I'm thinking it has to do with the dragons from every Age becoming one during VoG. Everytime Rand channels it's like he's controlling a full Circle consisting of people at a Lews Therin strength.

[mb]

Was LTT the first dragon?

First Dragon would be a First Age person. Though Lews Therin might have been the first that was given the name.

It seems the soul has been (and will be) born many times in the cycle.

 

There are no "firsts" in the turning of the wheel of time ;)

There would actually be a first in terms of the Cycle; for sure in terms of any Age.

[Lews_Windu]

I'm thinking it has to do with the dragons from every Age becoming one during VoG. Everytime Rand channels it's like he's controlling a full Circle consisting of people at a Lews Therin strength.

 

 

So, the Avatar State? Okay, if they ever make a WoT movie/tv series, they have to show the Maradon scene with Rand's eyes glowing white. The whole nine yards: glowing dragon tattoos and herons, hyper-amplified voice.

[thevillagecouncil]

I betting that whatever has cured his madness has also given rand increased stamina so he can channel far longer than normal people. He also has the training of lews therin, so he was probably extremely efficient with his channeling, using the smartest ways to make the lightning and tornadoes. The reason we've not seen demandred or moridin do these insane army destroying feats is because they don't have the endurance to withstand hours of channeling at that level.

[Pandemonium]

I betting that whatever has cured his madness has also given rand increased stamina so he can channel far longer than normal people. He also has the training of lews therin, so he was probably extremely efficient with his channeling, using the smartest ways to make the lightning and tornadoes. The reason we've not seen demandred or moridin do these insane army destroying feats is because they don't have the endurance to withstand hours of channeling at that level.

 

Once again, I will post this quote. "Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized." Min read this literally 1 paragraph after Rand had his little adventure in Maradon. Rand is far, far more powerful than he was. This isn't just him having LTTs memories or having more endurance. Naeff literally saw more weaves than he had ever seen before. Rand is able to channel from an infinite void-- it says so right there in the quote. Some people could interpret this as Rand being able to channel from every single one of his past incarnations simultaneously-- this is quite possible since he merged with all his past lives on Dragonmount. Infinite void... that is Creator-like power. Rand is the dragon-reborn and he has special powers that no one else has such as being one with the land. It should be interesting to see how he uses his powers.

 

That said, Rand can't use this power wantonly. He said that he may have made a mistake and that he came dangerously close to his final show-down with the DO when he did this. So no to everyone who said that Rand's new power is just a honing of skill. Rand's new power is the very ability he will need to kill the Dark One. Rand is the Creator's Champion on earth and we finally get a taste of what that means.

[herid]

He also has the training of lews therin, so he was probably extremely efficient with his channeling, using the smartest ways to make the lightning and tornadoes. The reason we've not seen demandred or moridin do these insane army destroying feats is because they don't have the endurance to withstand hours of channeling at that level.

Strength and endurance are very different things. There have been a number of fights involving the Forsaken that didn't last that long (Rand vs. Sammael, Rand Vs. Rhavin) and none of them demonstrated anything remotely resembling what Rand did at Maradon.

Also, many characters demonstrated an ability to channel for hours. Rand did it a number of times prior to VoG (e.g. during the fight for Cairhien), so did Egenene and Avi during the same scene and they are weaklings compared to him. So did many Aes Sedai during the Seanchan attack on the Tower. So did several Aes Sedai and Asha'man (particularly Nynaeve) as well as a number of Forsaken during the cleansing. So did various Aes Sedai holding shields on Rand during his kidnapping or on Semirhage after she was captured.

 

There is nothing to suggest that Rand has somehow become incredibly efficient or that his ability comes from newly discovered knowledge coming from LTT.

 

 

Once again, I will post this quote. "Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized." Min read this literally 1 paragraph after Rand had his little adventure in Maradon. Rand is far, far more powerful than he was. This isn't just him having LTTs memories or having more endurance. Naeff literally saw more weaves than he had ever seen before. Rand is able to channel from an infinite void-- it says so right there in the quote. Some people could interpret this as Rand being able to channel from every single one of his past incarnations simultaneously-- this is quite possible since he merged with all his past lives on Dragonmount. Infinite void... that is Creator-like power. Rand is the dragon-reborn and he has special powers that no one else has such as being one with the land. It should be interesting to see how he uses his powers.

 

That prophecy is very obscure and it's very far from clear what it means. I have no clear idea myself but I don't find your explanation plausible. the fact that it says "maw of the infinite void" leads me to believe that it's something else altogether, something like the maw of the DO in some sense after the bore is opened.

[jemron]

I'm thinking it has to do with the dragons from every Age becoming one during VoG. Everytime Rand channels it's like he's controlling a full Circle consisting of people at a Lews Therin strength.

 

I like this. However, I assumed that destroying the CK somehow gave Rand that power. Almost like it turned Rand into a new CK. Like he himself is now a walking super sa'angreal. Or, the simplest explanation is always the right one: he now has all of Lews Therin's memories and strength, so he's just that bada**.

[Elan Tedronai]

I betting that whatever has cured his madness has also given rand increased stamina so he can channel far longer than normal people. He also has the training of lews therin, so he was probably extremely efficient with his channeling, using the smartest ways to make the lightning and tornadoes. The reason we've not seen demandred or moridin do these insane army destroying feats is because they don't have the endurance to withstand hours of channeling at that level.

 

Once again, I will post this quote. "Light is held before the maw of the infinite void, and all that he is can be seized." Min read this literally 1 paragraph after Rand had his little adventure in Maradon. Rand is far, far more powerful than he was. This isn't just him having LTTs memories or having more endurance. Naeff literally saw more weaves than he had ever seen before. Rand is able to channel from an infinite void-- it says so right there in the quote. Some people could interpret this as Rand being able to channel from every single one of his past incarnations simultaneously-- this is quite possible since he merged with all his past lives on Dragonmount. Infinite void... that is Creator-like power. Rand is the dragon-reborn and he has special powers that no one else has such as being one with the land. It should be interesting to see how he uses his powers.

 

That said, Rand can't use this power wantonly. He said that he may have made a mistake and that he came dangerously close to his final show-down with the DO when he did this. So no to everyone who said that Rand's new power is just a honing of skill. Rand's new power is the very ability he will need to kill the Dark One. Rand is the Creator's Champion on earth and we finally get a taste of what that means.

 

 

you're overestimating rand. he's just a man. not a god. if the dark one broke free from his prison, a thousand rands would not be able to stop him.

[Entreri]

In Maradon it was all Rand. Certainly no Callandor, which would have been highly visible and noted by everyone. Certainly he had no angreal.

 

He is the most powerful channeler ever. Did he not slap Ishamael silly in AoL? He power and skill were so great, most of the Forsaken turned in jealousy, pathetic weaklings that they were.

 

He would have slapped Egwene and her little circle of 13's as well.

 

It could be possible that he gained an additional power boost by drawing on the CK like he did. Difficult to say since Jesus Rand has almost no PoV in the book.

[Kahsm]

I think you all overestimate the difficulty of destroying an army of non-channlers who are rushing from almost a fixed point. It's flashy, and makes for an epic looking scene to the non-channelers we get the PoV from, but I doubt Moridin would be as impressed.

 

I would bet Moridin could do it just as well, if not better, than Rand. The reason he doesn't is because there's no point. They are just ants to him. He can wipe them out whenever he wants, after Rand and the Tower(s) is/are dealt with. Non-channelers, even weaker ones, are a totally different story.

 

Remember WAY back in the series when Nynaeve fought one of the forsaken... I think it was Moghedien. It was all about trying to shield or even insta-still each other and slicing incoming weaves. At that point, as long as your spirit was strong enough to slice the incoming shields, it was more about channeling "agility" the more shields you could make, and the more slicing weaves you could make, the better your chances. There were no fireballs or balefire beams. From a non-channeler observer, they would just be staring at each other (love to see that done in a movie). It would, however, be QUICKLY exhausting.

 

I don't believe channeling is just strength and endurance... it's strength, endurance, and agility. Where agility is how many threads (of whatever strength) you can handle at one time. There is the awesome scene where Rand makes the girls levitate, and I think it's Egwene who comments on how Rand can handle so many weaves at once. This is different from skill! Skill is about how quick and neatly you can tie specific weaves.

 

As for comparing to LTT, LTT was fighting battles that were filled with, if not exclusively, channelers. I would assume A LOT of his agility was consumed with protective weaves: Shields, slicing incoming attacks, saving not only himself but his troops. He would either be holding them ready or actively using them constantly, invisibly, like the Nynaeve fight. Therefore the Capacity LTT would have for offensive measures would be much diminished. Rand had to do none of this at Maradon -- pure ownage.

[Roxinos]

Rand has achieved enlightenment.

 

That sums it up in a way I couldn't possibly have thought to, but it ties it up so neatly. Rand has achieved nirvana. The Void and the Flame is the tool used to empty yourself of emotion. Channelers must use it to access the One Power. Well, he's just achieved the most pure form of the Void. He's not empty of emotion, but he is not tainted by it.

[WhiskyJack]

We don't know for sure how many trollocs Rand killed. He obviously didn't kill them all. Most of them fled biding their time. Remember when he and 14-15 more channelers took on 100k trollocs and killed them to last one. He wasn't tired at all. I hope people actually try to understand what 100k dead trollocs be like crammed in small space. So I doubt he power growth has been that sharp..

[b3arz3rg3r]

We don't know for sure how many trollocs Rand killed. He obviously didn't kill them all. Most of them fled biding their time. Remember when he and 14-15 more channelers took on 100k trollocs and killed them to last one. He wasn't tired at all. I hope people actually try to understand what 100k dead trollocs be like crammed in small space. So I doubt he power growth has been that sharp..

 

It has been that sharp.

I think it was more like 25 channellers who fought at his side when the trollocs attacked that manor house and he faced far more than 100k trollocs in Maradon. And while Rand certainly did more than any two if not three channelers combined, counting even Logain, Nyneave and Cadsuane, I doubt he accounted for much more than a third of the killed if that. At Maradon he faced easily five if not ten times the number which assaulted the manor house alone. What Rand did in aSoL with dozens of weaves on a massive scale operating at the same time for an hour far outstrips anything he ever did in a battle. That took more power than what he has shown previously linked to an angreal. Combine that with his increased effectivity and I would put the current Rand on the same level as he was before when he had Callandor in hands.

 

It hasn't been explicitly said, but Egwene's words suggests that two full circles could no longer keep him shielded from the One Power. Before it was said several times how the thirteen weakest Aes Sedai in the Tower could subdue him as easily as a baby and I very much doubt the two circles were made up by the weakest Aes Sedai.

 

Point three are his descendants. Aviendha's kids are born with contact to the OP. Not just with the spark which would cause them to channel eventually, but with their actual talent realized. They don't seem to have the same limits regular channelers have.

 

All of the above indicates to me that Rand has gotten a significant power boost aside from incredible dexterity with weaves.

[Elan Tedronai]

13 aes sedai can shield the most power channeller. Even lews therin thought he could not break away from elaida's aes sedai in book 6

[b3arz3rg3r]

13 aes sedai can shield the most power channeller. Even lews therin thought he could not break away from elaida's aes sedai in book 6

That holds true for regular channellers. Rand, since VoG and his future descendants with Aviendha are a different matter. They no longer seem to have the same limitations other channellers have.

[WoTMegaFan_007]

So is this just some 'creative licensing' on the part of the author, or are we really supposed to throw out the whole

channeling system and believe that Rand was more powerful than when he cleansed Saidin, or even 1/1000th as close

unaided?

 

The danger was not from Rand using the One Power... The danger was in him giving in to the Dark One's ambitions. It was at that precise moment that Rand found his reason for existing (what many people in the world struggle to find). In that moment of clarity, Rand discovered what it MEANT to defeat the Dark One. The Cho'den Kal or whatever the hell it's called was destroyed in the process of curing himself from the insanity that the Dark One had placed in his mind (read the part when braid tugger cured that one guy of insanity and she looked at rand's mind).

 

If rand had "but bowed his knee once" all would have been lost because he would have bent knee to the Dark One giving the dark one the power to destroy everything in a blink.

 

Rand Decides the purpose of the Wheel of Time's existence -> Rand Cures the Taint on his Brain -> Rand becomes a Master Of Chance by embracing his destiny and Ta'Verin-Ness (or whatever it's called) and becomes the combined existence of his previous lives.

 

Personally, I thought it was a bullshit reason to keep everything spinning (pun intended), but whatever.

[Elan Tedronai]

13 aes sedai can shield the most power channeller. Even lews therin thought he could not break away from elaida's aes sedai in book 6

That holds true for regular channellers. Rand, since VoG and his future descendants with Aviendha are a different matter. They no longer seem to have the same limitations other channellers have.

 

 

lews therin was not your average channellers. no one has ever managed to break free from a circle of 13 in the series. There is all always a limit. Hell the creation of dragonmount by lews therin is a prime example.

[Kahsm]

13 aes sedai can shield the most power channeller. Even lews therin thought he could not break away from elaida's aes sedai in book 6

That holds true for regular channellers. Rand, since VoG and his future descendants with Aviendha are a different matter. They no longer seem to have the same limitations other channellers have.

 

lews therin was not your average channellers. no one has ever managed to break free from a circle of 13 in the series. There is all always a limit. Hell the creation of dragonmount by lews therin is a prime example.

 

There may be a technical limitation in that no matter how strong you are, 13 is enough to stop you from embracing. Though 13 is also the link limit for women, so it may also just be a myth based on a lack of testing any other combinations. And given the plethora of male channelers around these days, we should probably start questioning whether or not 72 channelers could shield Rand?

[mb]

Up through Gathering Storm, there has not been an on-screen scene of 13 channelers (or 13 Aes Sedia) shielding 1 channeler.

If I remember correctly, the highest number of shielders on 1 channeler was 6; in this series.

[Dakota]

Up through Gathering Storm, there has not been an on-screen scene of 13 channelers (or 13 Aes Sedia) shielding 1 channeler.

If I remember correctly, the highest number of shielders on 1 channeler was 6; in this series.

 

Lords of Chaos, when Rand was kidnapped. They used a full 13 to initially cut him off, though once he was captured and in transit they only used 6 to hold the shield.