Egwene ugh

[David Selig]

According to the results of this poll, most people felt that Elayne was in character in ToM (for better or worse ;)) - http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/56092-was-elayne-the-same-in-tom/page__hl__elayne+same

 

Such judgements are quite subjective anyway. What feels "in character" for one reason may be completely off for another. With the change of author, we are naturally look for signs of out of character behaviour much more than before. I am pretty certain I've read the Elayne parts in the series way more than most people here, and I had no problems with the way she was written in ToM. You are free to disagree, of course.

[idiostock]

Off topic, but I felt like Mat in ToM read like a weak impression of Mat. I gagged when I read about his best smile breaking hearts.

[Mr Ares]

"We should very much like to have you in the Yellow, I think," the woman said.

Egwene started. "I've never shown particular skill for Healing."

"Being of the Yellow isn't about skill, child," Suana said. "It's about passion. If you love to make things well, to fix that which is broken, there would be a purpose for you here."

"My thanks," Egwene said. "But the Amyrlin has no Ajah."

"Yes, but she's raised from one. Consider it, Egwene. I think you would find a good home here."

Egwene may have a passion for making things well, but no passion or talent for making people well, which is what the Yellow Ajah is about. They're not mediators like the Gray Ajah. The scene felt like a ham-fisted attempt to make us think Egwene would fit in every Ajah, when she does not and doesn't really need to in order to be a good Amyrlin. You don't need to be a doctor to run the hospital.

An alternative explanation would be that Suana is just playing politics here, trying to get Egwene on side with the Yellows.

 

 

Because there have always been such great calls made!?!?(See Mat in the Seven Striped Lass)BS has had difficulty at times hitting the mark, that can't be disputed.

Excuse me? I believe it can be disputed. In fact, the one example you gave me(vague as it was) did not seem to be the least bit out of character. In any case, it's pretty laughable that you or any fan could claim to have a better handle on the characters then the editor of the series and widow of the author.

 

Until you(or someone) manages to dig up some statement with Harriet(or even Brandon) acknowledging that some characters were(or even might have been) out-of-character, you do not have any ability to effectively argue your point.

Why is Harriet's opinion (or Sanderson's, for that matter) noteworthy? Simply saying "but Harriet..." is effectively arguing your point. She has an opinion on the characters. So does everyone here. Why is hers more valid than anyone elses?

 

Obviously because unlike anyone else Harriet had access to RJ for decades while he thought up all the characters. Of course her opinion is still her own and not RJ's, but her opinion does carry a certain weight.

Her opinion is still just an opinion. Just because a certain portrayal fits with Harriet's vision of a character, doesn't mean it would even fit completely with RJ's.

 

 

True, until you realize that Harriet is not infallible and has made mistakes before, specifically failing to reign in Jordan's writing.The fact that we have to get to the last books for the plots to start resolving is very telling.

 

So no, Harriet's word != word of god.Did Mat seem out of character a little ? In my opinion, he did.Am I unable to discuss that because the book has Harriet's apparent approval ?

 

Actually... Harriet's word IS pretty much word of god.

God is dead. The only person involved in the series truly able to make Word of God pronouncements about the world was RJ. Harriet and Sanderson and Alan and Maria can, so long as they are going by information left behind by RJ.

She effectively has the final say on anything that Brandon writes. I agree that she is not infallible, but she the least fallible person in this specific area. Her opinion holds more authority than any fan's because of her position. Arguing that [insert Character Here] is out of character based on your opinion is ridiculously subjective and does not get anyone anywhere, because as far as the authority figures are concerned, they are in character and properly written. Now you, personally, may disagree with the canon depiction of certain characters and that's fine, but your opinion on the matter does not supersede how they are written.

Authors can derail their own characters. Just because something is in the canon, doesn't mean it doesn't fit with previous depictions in the canon. Arguing that a certain character is in character based on Harriet's opinion is also ridiculously subjective. Harriet is no infallible. Further, unless her opinion of the characters was always in complete lockstep with RJ's, then her opinion is open to question. She has an interpretation of the characters that RJ might not have agreed with. Is her word more valid than his? No. Therefore "but Harriet..." is not a valid argument.

 

Why is Harriet's opinion (or Sanderson's, for that matter) noteworthy? Simply saying "but Harriet..." is effectively arguing your point. She has an opinion on the characters. So does everyone here. Why is hers more valid than anyone elses?

 

...really? You really have to ask that?

Twice, apparently.

 

Because they are the people who are now defining the characters! Their "opinion" is what is canon now in the WoT.

And what if their opinion clashes with previously established portrayals within the canon? Do they have carte blanche to redefine at will? What your position boils down to is the (frankly, insulting) belief that you are not entitled to an opinion. See, what matters is not "but Harriet...", saying it must be fine just because a woman who, no matter how good she might be at her job, is not infallible let it pass. If people want to say that this portrayal doesn't match up to a previous one (both in the Sanderson works and even within the purely Jordan parts of the work), can they put their finger on why? Can they argue their case for it being different? Can you put forward an argument against, saying how it matches previous depictions? If all we have for either side is "it just feels off/right" then their isn't much room for debate, but we can all have an opinion. Your argument is just a way to stifle honest criticism and differences in opinion while hiding behind RJ's editor, and I don't much care for it.

[David Selig]

An alternative explanation would be that Suana is just playing politics here, trying to get Egwene on side with the Yellows.

Yes, that's quite clearly the point of this scene IMO. Typical Aes Sedai scheming and twisting of words. Egwene would be an asset for any Ajah for political reasons.

[Guest PiotrekS]

An alternative explanation would be that Suana is just playing politics here, trying to get Egwene on side with the Yellows.

Yes, that's quite clearly the point of this scene IMO. Typical Aes Sedai scheming and twisting of words. Egwene would be an asset for any Ajah for political reasons.

 

It would seem a good explanation on first sight, but after closer examination it loses its merit.

 

First, I think we can agree that Suana is trying to get Egwene to join the Yellow Ajah, and since the Amyrlin can't belong to an Ajah, she is treating Egwene as a possibly strong future Aes Sedai and not as an Amyrlin.

 

Therefore, Egwene would be a political asset for the Yellows only because of her personal strengths, such as cleverness, strong will etc.

 

But we know that the Ajahs recruit new sisters on the basis of more specific critieria - that is, certain talents or beliefs about what a sister should do. Yellows seek mainly healers, blues political and social leaders etc.

It could however be argued that it is normally the case, but Egwene was so special that she was treated differently.

 

It could be rebutted by noting that if Egwene was an asset because of her personal strengths, so were young Siuan and Moiraine, Elayne and Nynaeve. In every generation there always will be someone excaceptional relative to the average. We still haven't seen any such head hunting by all and every Ajah for any other exceptional young sister or Accepted.

 

If you would like to argue that Egwene was so singular as to be a unique case, it suffices to say that if it makes sense for the Yellow Ajah to compete for a smart and strong non-healer, then it also makes sense to compete for the second best, third best non-healer candidate etc. (simple iteration shows it is the only rational strategy for a recruiting Ajah).

 

If that is the case and if the Ajahs are inclined to resign from their basic criteria because somebody who doesn't meet them is otherwise exceptional, it logically follows that they should abandon their basic criteria altogether. And we know they haven't done so. The Yellows pick candidates based on a basic criterion of healing ability - such auxilliary criteria as political cunning or strenght of will are taken in consideration provided the basic condition is fulfilled.

 

If the above rant somehow hasn't convinced you that there actually was something "off" in all Ajahs sudden enthusiasm for Egwene's membership, I recall it was said in one of the books that the Yellows cared little for everything except healing. But it could have changed in the fervor of political fights during Elaida's reign, so it is a relatively weak argument.

 

To conclude - I stand strongly by my opinion that Aes Sedai's reaction to Egwene was written in grossly exaggerated and over the top manner, including Suana's proposal.

[Agitel]

An alternative explanation would be that Suana is just playing politics here, trying to get Egwene on side with the Yellows.

Yes, that's quite clearly the point of this scene IMO. Typical Aes Sedai scheming and twisting of words. Egwene would be an asset for any Ajah for political reasons.

 

It would seem a good explanation on first sight, but after closer examination it loses its merit.

 

First, I think we can agree that Suana is trying to get Egwene to join the Yellow Ajah, and since the Amyrlin can't belong to an Ajah, she is treating Egwene as a possibly strong future Aes Sedai and not as an Amyrlin.

 

Therefore, Egwene would be a political asset for the Yellows only because of her personal strengths, such as cleverness, strong will etc.

 

 

Amyrlin's can favor an Ajah, though. Flattering Egwene and making her feel more sympathetic to the Yellow Ajah would certainly be in the Yellow Ajah's interests. Keep in mind Amyrlins are always (with the exception of Egwene) raised from an Ajah, and they're generally seen as still, in many ways, loyal (if not belonging) to that Ajah by other sisters, even if officially they aren't. Egwene didn't, however they must feel that Egwene may identify with one over others, and if she does, then she would be partial to it.

[Guest PiotrekS]

An alternative explanation would be that Suana is just playing politics here, trying to get Egwene on side with the Yellows.

Yes, that's quite clearly the point of this scene IMO. Typical Aes Sedai scheming and twisting of words. Egwene would be an asset for any Ajah for political reasons.

 

It would seem a good explanation on first sight, but after closer examination it loses its merit.

 

First, I think we can agree that Suana is trying to get Egwene to join the Yellow Ajah, and since the Amyrlin can't belong to an Ajah, she is treating Egwene as a possibly strong future Aes Sedai and not as an Amyrlin.

 

Therefore, Egwene would be a political asset for the Yellows only because of her personal strengths, such as cleverness, strong will etc.

 

 

Amyrlin's can favor an Ajah, though. Flattering Egwene and making her feel more sympathetic to the Yellow Ajah would certainly be in the Yellow Ajah's interests. Keep in mind Amyrlins are always (with the exception of Egwene) raised from an Ajah, and they're generally seen as still, in many ways, loyal (if not belonging) to that Ajah by other sisters, even if officially they aren't. Egwene didn't, however they must feel that Egwene may identify with one over others, and if she does, then she would be partial to it.

 

Elaida did, but it was considered outrageous - remember Siuan's strong reaction when her former Ajah was even recalled in the discussion in the Hall. It doesn't seem to be a common practice.

 

If Suana treated Egwene as an Amyrlin, she should be discussing with her how to depose Elaida, not which Ajah Egwene should join.

[Elan Tedronai]

It's bad enough that sanderson can't seem to write the characters well enough. It's bad enough that his writing style pales in comparison to jordan. what is shocking is harriet's editing. This is someone who has been on the series for years and yet could not see how the characters were off in TGS and TOM. And yet we the readers knew staright away.

 

Her editing skills are overrated

[Puny]

Yes horrible...

 

Back on topic:

Maybe this is the first step of dissolving the Ajahs. I still have hope of the Aes Sedai to change and if they are gonna work with the Asha´man or unite with them hopefully they will be influnced. I´d rather see the Ajahs back to was they were in the old days, then the jealous safeguarding of knowledge could be eradicated and all the Aes Sedai could grow and maybe advance more, learn knew ways to weave and so forth.

[Elan Tedronai]

Yes horrible...

 

Back on topic:

Maybe this is the first step of dissolving the Ajahs. I still have hope of the Aes Sedai to change and if they are gonna work with the Asha´man or unite with them hopefully they will be influnced. I´d rather see the Ajahs back to was they were in the old days, then the jealous safeguarding of knowledge could be eradicated and all the Aes Sedai could grow and maybe advance more, learn knew ways to weave and so forth.

 

 

jealous safeguarding of knowledge is already at it's end when egwene initiated the Aes Sedai exchange program with the sea folk and wiseones. The Amyrlin is always one step ahead.

[Guest PiotrekS]

Yes horrible...

 

Back on topic:

Maybe this is the first step of dissolving the Ajahs. I still have hope of the Aes Sedai to change and if they are gonna work with the Asha´man or unite with them hopefully they will be influnced. I´d rather see the Ajahs back to was they were in the old days, then the jealous safeguarding of knowledge could be eradicated and all the Aes Sedai could grow and maybe advance more, learn knew ways to weave and so forth.

 

 

jealous safeguarding of knowledge is already at it's end when egwene initiated the Aes Sedai exchange program with the sea folk and wiseones. The Amyrlin is always one step ahead.

 

Your last remark reminded me of Wladyslaw Gomulka, Polish communist leader from 1956 to 1970, who in a political speech famously said: "We were standing on the edge of an abyss, but since then have made a big step forward"

[Mr Ares]

An alternative explanation would be that Suana is just playing politics here, trying to get Egwene on side with the Yellows.

Yes, that's quite clearly the point of this scene IMO. Typical Aes Sedai scheming and twisting of words. Egwene would be an asset for any Ajah for political reasons.

 

It would seem a good explanation on first sight, but after closer examination it loses its merit.

 

First, I think we can agree that Suana is trying to get Egwene to join the Yellow Ajah, and since the Amyrlin can't belong to an Ajah, she is treating Egwene as a possibly strong future Aes Sedai and not as an Amyrlin.

I don't think we can agree that at all. As was said in the posted quote, the Amyrlin doesn't belong to an Ajah, but she is raised from one. She is not trying to make Egwene a Yellow AS, she is trying to make her a Yellow Amyrlin. Most girls, however bright and capable, do not represent that same potential - Egwene has already been raised by the rebels, she already has a claim to the Amyrlin Seat. She is simply trying to get the Tower to ackowledge something that has already happened.

[Mongoose]

Hinderstap didn't bother me any more than any of the other Bubble of Evil did.

Of course, that said, they all bothered me somewhat

[Himiko]

Well, I mentioned my dislike of Egwene in Perrin and Faile's topic, simply as a comparison, I figured I might as well outline the reasons for my opinion in the proper thread.

 

Have to say, I wasn't expecting to find much agreement for my views here, its kind of a relief, given that one of my favourite characters seems to be disliked a lot on here.

 

OK, so, yeah, as mentioned, I dislike Egwene. To a huge extent. If I could slap a fictional character, I'll be honest, it would probably be her (Though, as far as WoT goes, Rand comes pretty close when he's in his "Oh-noes-I-must-not-let-women-die-even-if-they-are-blatantly-evil-and-trying-to-kill-me-and-my-loved-ones" phase).

 

Firstly, I think she treats Nynaeve terribly. Nynaeve is my favourite character, or one of them, and has been from very early on, so this does not sit at all well with me. Yes, Nynaeve is bossy, yes, she is a bit full of bluster, but at least in the second book, she admits that Egwene shouldn't call her Wisdom, as they are just two girls far from home. When they are both Accepted, Egwene seems to revel in every chance to bring Nynaeve down a few pegs- by her own admittance, at least once she looks forward to seeing her not because they are friends, but because she has he chance to put Nynaeve down again. She's in the world of dreams without permission (directly disobeying an order, in fact), and, to cover her own arse, instead of changing the subject, or asking Nynaeve to keep quiet about it, she just scolds Nynaeve, blaming her for being there, scaring her in one of the most horrible ways possible (again by her own admission, not because she's actually worried about Nynaeve being hurt in TAR, but because she doesn't want Nyn to find out she's there without permission), and then does she feel bad about it afterwards? Hell no, she giggles about it. Maybe I'm forgetting a passage where she feels bad about it, but somehow, really don't think I am. Again, happy to be proved wrong. And Nyn remains friends with her- a loyal friend, who tries to give her good advice when she's raised to Amyrlin. Personally, had I been Nynaeve, I'd have waited till the next time I saw her outside of TAR, bound her with the power and given her a terrific bitchslapping. Then, later on, along comes the test for Aes Sedai, and once again, we see Nynaeve getting shafted. Now, I have a lot less issue with Egwene here than the earlier issue- obviously, she's under pressure as a leader not to play favourites. That's fair enough. But she admitted that Nynaeve's test was unfairly harsh and brutal. She knew that Nynaeve was being targeted to fail. Stepping in, or, if that's not possible, disciplining the Aes Sedai at the end of the test, would not have been playing favourites (after all, Saerin- apologies if I have the wrong name- had a few words to say to the others), all that not stepping in showed was that she wouldn't step in to stop a sister/novice/Accepted being treated unfairly. At least if she knew them. How's that supposed to strengthen her position?

 

Secondly: She has a tendency to change her viewpoint radically based on her surroundings. Firstly, being a Wisdom is the focus of her life. Then an Aes Sedai comes along and BAM! she wants to be an Aes Sedai. Then she joins the Aiel for a while, BAM! she agrees with most of the Wise Ones' criticisms about the AS and the White Tower, as I recall. Then she's summoned to be Amyrlin, and BAM! the oath rod is great, the White Tower must have respect, the channelers should be tied to the White Tower, etc. Passion for what you're doing is great, but it does seem to contradict the strong will and great focus Egwene is written as having, that she changes her opinion like that. Opinions change, I know this, but its like Egwene just molds into whatever society she's part of, with barely a thought.

 

Thirdly: OK, I will say this now. I'm sure Egwene makes, and will make, at the very least an adequate leader for the White Tower, probably a good one. She did do many good things in this line in TGS and before- fighting off Seanchan, opening up the novice book, taking a loyalist Red as her Keeper. I will take my hat off to her and admit this. Her role in TG is yet to be stated- honestly, we don't really know how well prepared the WT is, what preparations have been made/planned. Certainly I think we can safely assume the presence of the whole WT in the last battle, and that Egwene will fight on the side of the light, and fight hard. But in terms of planning to do more good for people outside of the White Tower, we've seen nothing- save a speech from Nynaeve about how AS should be helping people more, and the White Tower less, which, as I recall, whilst Egwene didn't disgree, she didn't say "Yep, AS are supposed to be servants of all, you're right, it is more important to help people". I realise, of course, that the Last Battle is top priority, and after it ends, the first thing Egwene will do is say "Right people- less of this ring kissing and having kings and queens bowing and scraping. We have work to do! Yellows, set me up some fine hospitals across the land, where people can be healed. Browns, Whites, set up some excellent schools, and centres of research, where we may teach people. Greys, perhaps help out in some courts- play mediator, ensure all get a fair trial. Perhaps set some up yourself. Greens, get yourselves to battle training- there may be Dark Ones or Seanchan attacks in the near future, and we need to protect ourselves, and others...". If this does happen, I can't promise to like Egwene, but I will take my hat off to her.

 

The issue above isn't limited to Egwene- its a fault the vast majority of AS possess. However, its especially frustrating in Egwene, given that she is young, has had doubts about the AS way of doing things before now, who discovered Talents because she wasn't so set in her ways as older AS, who is being toted as this great, strong Amyrlin, etc.

 

Next, she's extremely stubborn. Again, not always a bad thing in itself. However, she wants Elayne and Nyn back at the tower. She admits they are clever, resourceful women, untainted by tower politics. And yet, when they disagree with her about the breaking of the Seals- not even disagree, just suggest that the plan might make sense- then straight away "Ah, well, they must be influenced by his ta'veren nature". The Dragon Reborn says "OK, I want to bring the fight to the Dark One, rather than fight when he chooses. I'm going to break the seals", and its "No, that's a terrible idea! I won't let you!". Now, don't get me wrong, its understandable to have doubts, in both these scenarios, especially the latter. But Egwene doesn't seem to have doubts in these instances. She just seems to think that people who disagree with her are idiots, or wrong, or under the influence of something. I don't care if she considers the points and then disagrees, if she'd gone "Hmm, these two disagree. Well, they are free of tower politics, they are pretty intelligent, maybe they have a point. On the other hand, it could be his nature has influenced them. I'd prefer to stick with my instinct, rather than risk it". No issues there. But she doesn't consider that perhaps she's wrong. And EVERY person is wrong sometimes. Even the Amyrlin seat. Personally, I can't wait for Egwene to meet Cadsuane...

 

Lastly, and this is more a fault of the writing than the character, I'll admit. Egwene has a Talent for creating cuendillar (sp?). She is a Dreamwalker, and learns vast amounts about this in the time she is with the Aiel (which is how long?), and is able to outmatch a hugely talented dreamer there. She is tremendously talented with weaves (despite having not been in the tower for very long at all before heading out to hunt Black Ajah, but I'll ignore this one, and assume that she is gifted and she practices a lot in her spare time). She is one of the most powerful Aes Sedai known for hundreds of years (Does this EVER actually affect her storyline? Admittedly, its been a while since I read the early books, so I imagine it comes into play there, but the only time recently she's been using huge amounts of power, she was up to her eyeballs in forkroot and working solely with ter'angreal). And, of course, a few months with Siuan's advice and dealing with the Salidar Aes Sedai, and Egwene is ready to battle wills with Elaida, win the majority of AS over to her, have intricate political knowledge and be able to outmaneouvre Halls full of AS, centuries old women known for being canny. Oh, and she is strong in Earth, a rarity for her gender. Weaknesses? Well, she's not very good at healing. I'm sorry, its hugely unrealistic for her to be an expert on so many subjects in such a short time. At least most of the other characters have some logic behind their characters strengths- Nynaeve's skill for healing comes from a lifetime of passion on the subject, and, with a few exceptions (weaving balefire, etc.) her powers, and strengths, and findings, lie mostly in that field. Her strength presumably comes in useful with the complicated healing she performs. Faile and Berelain are expert politicians because they have been brought up to be that way, and to think that way. Perrin, on the other hand, has a weak point in this area, as might be expected. So on.

 

But, yeah, that's my views pretty much outlined there. Sorry if I got a bit longwinded and ranty.

 

PLEASE NOTE: I am not trying to convince anyone to dislike Egwene, nor do I believe people who like Egwene are in any way stupid or less entitled to their opinion, I am merely airing my own. And possibly discussing it, if people wish. Sorry if I sound paranoid, but on a couple of forums I've been a member of, people get a bit pissy if you say something negative without adding "MY OPINION ONLY" into the text several times :P

[Barid Bel Medar]

Gah, another Egwene thread. WEll, at least it hasnt resulted in name calling and suchlike (or perhaps it had, i didnt read the whole thing)

 

Anyway, I might aswell have my opinion. Ill say straight off, and forgive me for being blunt, but dont bother trying to argue with me, I wont reply. By all means, correct me if I have got facts wrong, or ask me why but I really dont care to debate it. I respect all opinions, on boths sides, so I will agree with whatever points you make.

 

Well, now onto it.

 

- As a character, I am indifferent to Egwene. She has done alot for the Tower (if not as much as everyone -the Aes Sedai- thinks she has done. She is a bit arrogant in assuming her importance) and her role is exteremly vital. Thumbs up for her sorting out the Aes Sedai.

 

She also is clearly working for the good of the world, and will be one big thorn in the DO's side. I will definitely be cheering for her when she fights in the Last Battle. She is working, ultimately, for good, so I dont want such a powerful, Light Sided character killed by the Shadow. (Alright, that may be a bit of a lie, I wouldnt mind if Demandred killed her)

 

I feel I have to adress the major talking point of Egwene's role atm. Of course, I have some issue with her going against Rand in regards to the Seals. However, this does not make me dislike her in any way. Rand played her like a flute, she is only doing what he wants her to do. I think the issue irks people, me among them, for three reasons.

 

1. Every damn man, woman and child in the series goes against Rand. Aes Sedai always trying to control him, Kings and Queens wanting profit, Lords scheming for their own gain. People always against him, when he is only doing what is right (sometimes, only to his mind) FInally, we have him in perfect harmony, 420 years old, and yet ANOTHER Aes Sedai (his boyhood sweetheart, no less) steps up to the proverbial plate and goes against him, trying to control him.

 

2. WE KNOW that Rand has to break the seals. We know Rand is right, and is definitely more capable than Egwene in these matters. Even though Egwene has perfect right to doubt him, he said "i am breaking the seals, good day". Its no small thing. But even though we can see her reasoning, we still grow annoyed, because of what we know as the reader. You cant help it. I am sure every single one of us felt a spike of at least irritation when she said she would stop him.

 

3. this is the only point that really annoyed me about Egwene about the seals. She doesnt question it, she just dismisses the idea as madness straight up. It may just be the way it is written, but she gives no reason for us to believe she is thinking of an alternate, nor even researching anything to do with the seals. She seems to be going against Rand just because he is not doing what she wants him to. Its like she is saying "YOu are the Dragon, you need to fight this battle, I cant help you with sealing the DO. BUt I wont allow you to do this, this, this and this." She has got to pick one, either she trusts Rand to do what he must, or help him find a better way.

 

 

Having said that, even though it irritates me, I see the logic in her actions, and do not begrudge her the decisions.

 

- Now, as a person, I dislike Egwene. I would not give her the light of day were she a real person. To me, she is a hypocritical, control-obsessed B****. God, the way she treated Gawyn in ToM made me actually feel sorry for the guy. Nobody treats their loved ones like that, or they shouldnt. Others have already pointed out the way she treats Nynaeve, for no other reason than to assert her superiority.

 

A few points on this paragraph above.

 

1. People argue that its not fair to dislike Egwene by treating her like a real person. Well, I have to disagree. We get emotionally involved with the characters and the story. We treat them like people. If they do something we dont like, we dislike them more and more. Its only natural. We dislike the evil characters because of who they are, why not the good?

 

2. Having said that, I think one needs to acknowledge that the dislike is purely for personal distaste, it does not make her evil, nor her decisions tainted. She is ultimately a good character and all she does is for the best(in her opinion). YOu cannot doubt that.

My own distaste of her personality does not make her a bad Amyrlin. IN fact, she is a very good one. I believe she needs to be this way. I think that we need to separate her acheivements from her personality flaws.

 

 

Finally, I would adress the point of alot of people wanting her to get slapped down, so to speak.

To be honest, if someone calls her down for being the arrogant know-it-all she is (and thats just truth, she is) i would definitely be happy. It would give me great satisfaction.

 

However, its not necessary. IN many ways, she is like Rand, she has the need to dominate everyone, force them to obedience. Of course, Rand learned this is not the way to go. Some would say, well Egwene needs to learn that too. I would respond saying, no, she technically doesnt. Rand was corrupted by maddness and evil of the DO and mashadar. Egwene, however, is not. She isnt actaully harming the Light. Rand was going to if he didnt learn.

 

In a perfect world, creating perfect characters, Egwene WOULD realise the failings of her arrogance and the Aes Sedai, but nobody is perfect. The only thing she needs to acknowledge is that Rand has to break the seals, and that she needs to let him do it. And, when he explains it to her finally, I believe she will understand. SHe is far from stupid.

 

In fact, she doesnt even have to learn it. She just needs to do her part and fight Trollocs etc. at the LB. Rand already has enough female channelers to do what needs to be done.

 

So in all. Egwene the character, damn good asset to the Light. Egwene the woman, a terrible houseguest.

[Mrjon3s]

Everyone from two rivers is so arrogant. The only one that has a reason to after the whole snake guy thing is mat because of all the war knowledge. I mean really everyone in the main cast is like 20-30 and everyone else is years older.

[Durinax]

Everyone from two rivers is so arrogant. The only one that has a reason to after the whole snake guy thing is mat because of all the war knowledge. I mean really everyone in the main cast is like 20-30 and everyone else is years older.

actually I dont see perrin as arrogent, and rand and elayne have more right to be arrogent than mat.

[MierinWru]

Everyone from two rivers is so arrogant. The only one that has a reason to after the whole snake guy thing is mat because of all the war knowledge. I mean really everyone in the main cast is like 20-30 and everyone else is years older.

 

Omg, it's like the new Star Trek movie! *giggle*

 

I agree, though. It's Jordan's wunderkind complex.

[Himiko]

...

So in all. Egwene the character, damn good asset to the Light. Egwene the woman, a terrible houseguest.

 

I know you didn't want to discuss your opinion, which is fair enough, but I have to say, you make some very good points about her role. It isn't neccessary for her to realise the failings of herself and the Aes Sedai, to be an assett to the Light at the Last Battle. Nor will her continuing in the "traditional AS" way of thinking after the Last Battle neccessarily prove damaging to the world, after all, it hasn't so far.

 

I think as far as people saying Egwene/the Aes Sedai need to be slapped down is more to do with seeing progress, in the case of the AS, and White Tower as a whole (after the Last Battle, with male channelers free to use the Power without madness, and their own organisation, and, for all we know, the world changed in more ways, it would be a shame if the WT retained the same role in the world it always has. Especially since we've been told throughout the books about various faults with how the tower operates, and seen some remarks that they ought to be more focused on helping others). In the case of Egwene herself, its probably either because of a dislike for her, and wanting to see her brought down a peg or two, or they want to see her more negative character traits curbed, when so far, we've seen little reason for her to. For example:

 

- She treats Nynaeve shabbily, very shabbily, several times over the course of the series. Nynaeve is still her friend and advisor.

 

- She treats Gawyn horribly, too- if he's to be her husband, he has to obey her, see her will done, follow her commands. Despite the fact that what he says about the assassins makes sense, and turns out to be correct. Don't get me wrong, Gawyn is irritating and far from perfect, but still, despite being treated badly, and despite being proved right, by the end, we have: Gawyn the enamoured warder, in love with Egwene, and dedicated to seeing her will done. Maybe I'm crazy, I've always thought give and take relationships were healthy.

 

- She plans to bind the Windfinders and Wise Ones to the WT, despite Amys, her old teacher, asking her not to bind them to the tower. Amys and co. still trust her.

 

I realise in some cases, her negative "actions" are in her thoughts, which we are privy to, and not the other characters, so it would make little sense for them to lose trust in her based on that. BUT the fact that she does treat people badly, and gets away with it with no apparent negative ramifications, the fact that, in her thoughts, she is quite frequently arrogant, hypocritical, self righteous, etc. and rarely considers that she might be wrong, or acting inappropriately (to use a different example from the one above, considering removing rulers because they disagree with her stance on Rand), it is going to make people want to see someone point this out to her in a way that will get through to her. Which, I suspect, will involve either humiliation, public or otherwise, a verbal smackdown of some kind, or whatever, simply because she is a stubborn, self righteous character.

[Barid Bel Medar]

...

So in all. Egwene the character, damn good asset to the Light. Egwene the woman, a terrible houseguest.

 

I know you didn't want to discuss your opinion, which is fair enough, but I have to say, you make some very good points about her role. It isn't neccessary for her to realise the failings of herself and the Aes Sedai, to be an assett to the Light at the Last Battle. Nor will her continuing in the "traditional AS" way of thinking after the Last Battle neccessarily prove damaging to the world, after all, it hasn't so far.

 

I realise in some cases, her negative "actions" are in her thoughts, which we are privy to, and not the other characters, so it would make little sense for them to lose trust in her based on that. BUT the fact that she does treat people badly, and gets away with it with no apparent negative ramifications, the fact that, in her thoughts, she is quite frequently arrogant, hypocritical, self righteous, etc. and rarely considers that she might be wrong, or acting inappropriately (to use a different example from the one above, considering removing rulers because they disagree with her stance on Rand), it is going to make people want to see someone point this out to her in a way that will get through to her. Which, I suspect, will involve either humiliation, public or otherwise, a verbal smackdown of some kind, or whatever, simply because she is a stubborn, self righteous character.

 

No problem, after a while thinking about what I wrote in regards to replies, it kinda sounds stupid. I really cant express my opinion and then say I dont care for a reply. That was wrong. I wasnt implying that, however, I was saying that to prevent a full scale arguement which seems to crop up in most Egwene threads.

 

But your response is great, I think I owe a response to you. (and thats not just because you agree with me in some ways )

 

1. Yes, that was exactly the point i was trying to make (with much more words than you had :) ) Egwene as the Amyrlin is ready to take on the world. She technically doesnt need any growth, like Rand did pre VoG.

 

I like what you said about her and the "growth" of the Aes Sedai bit. It was much clearer than mine ( I am not sure if I even adressed it, if not, well I agree with you.) we would LIKE to see the Aes Sedai grow as per Nynaeve's thoughts, but really, it doesnt need to happen. It would make Egwene a much more likeable character, if she breaks away from the Aes Sedai mould, but plot-wise, Egwene has made enough progress with the Aes Sedai already. (one cannot change 3000 years of ineptitude in less than a year) In some ways, Egwene CANT risk any more changes. TG is on the doorstep. The Aes Sedai need to be united and ready to fight. Changing their ideals in such a short amount of time could run the risk of destabilizing them.

 

2. That is also the point i was trying to make. IF RJ was trying to make her perfect, she would definitely need to be humbled in some way. But the thing is, every character has faults. If Egwene is arrogant and such, well, she gets her job done, so plot-wise, she doesnt need anything more.

 

 

Anyway, I agree with you. It really boils down to whether Egwene's personality is important enough plot wise to change for the better.

[Toral alCaar]

Sometime when I read Egwene's point of view and she saying something arrogant, it makes my stomach turn and rumble. Egwene in spite of being such a well written character is definitely on the list of my 10 least favorite characters.

[Barid Bel Medar]

Sometime when I read Egwene's point of view and she saying something arrogant, it makes my stomach turn and rumble. Egwene in spite of being such a well written character is definitely on the list of my 10 least favorite characters.

 

Mmmm.

 

After all of the arguement about Egwene when ToM came out, I went back and forced myself to read Egwene with an open mind. I dont dislike her as much as I used to, but still... some of the things she thinks is really quite disturbing. I am convinced she is under some form of compulsion.

[Kal11]

It's bad enough that sanderson can't seem to write the characters well enough. It's bad enough that his writing style pales in comparison to jordan. what is shocking is harriet's editing. This is someone who has been on the series for years and yet could not see how the characters were off in TGS and TOM. And yet we the readers knew staright away.

 

Her editing skills are overrated

 

What you fail to realize or mention is that Sanderson said from the start he was not going to try and write as if he were RJ, that it would just be a recipe for disaster essentially and everything would feel off. Do certain characters have a different feel to them? Certainly, for both better and worse depending on your personal biases towards each character. For example I hated Nyn throughout essentially the entire series but she has become one I really enjoy since TGS, I feel overall BS writes much more entertaining female characters. He does however lack certain world experiences, such as being a soldier and combat veteran, that I related to in RJ's writing and felt really shined through in his work (the biggest difference in Mat's character and why many feel he seems off imo, although I do think Mat's "demise" is greatly exaggerated).

 

Regardless of your take on Sanderson's style versus Jordan I fail to see how you can't be happy that the series is seeing completion. Personally I feel he took on a very daunting and unenviable task in many respects, there was no way any author could make everyone happy, and has done an admirable job. In both the quality of his work as well as the dedication and work ethic he has put into a job much larger than he ever anticipated signing on. Would anyone rather have an author that said screw it and put in a half-assed effort because it was more than he expected? There was no way this project would have ever come out perfect.

 

One strength I will definitely give BS is that he has done a wonderful job bringing a darker feel to the story (something definitely needed approaching TG) and building a sense of impending climax. The Rand/Semirhage/Min scene in TGS was among the best chapters in the entire series, I was truly on the edge of my seat wondering if we were about to see Rand forcibly turned into Kinslayer 2.0. I felt more tension and worry that something truly horrific was about to happen than any other point in WoT, a very powerful scene. I think his handling of Rand Pre-Semi, Darth Rand and Zen Rand has been very well done. On my scoreboard the main protagonist and the culmination of his story arc is far and away the number one priority, and I have no complaints about BS in that regard whatsoever. Yeah we might get a handful of chapters such as Hinderstrap but that was no worse (imho infinitely better) than watching Elayne take baths or following a menagerie for six freaking books (<----Hyperbole for the slow kids that want to correct me, I am beating you to the punch).

[Kal11]

On topic about Egwene, I have been back and forth on her throughout the series. I honestly disliked how long the whole battle for the WT and her imprisonment stretched on, as well as certain plot points involved already mentioned in this thread, and thought it should have been resolved sooner. Currently she is on my annoying list and I am hoping she meets a grisly end in AMOL.

 

One thing I did not see mentioned regarding her attitude towards Rand later in the series is her relationship and "massages" that went on with Halima. I personally lean towards the belief that she has been compelled subtly and repeatedly by Aran'Gar (pretty sure that is the right one), it would explain the headaches and her often irrational behavior towards Rand at times. My best guess is that the groundwork was laid to make her oppose Rand and any plans he might propose (putting her in a Latrae Possae (sp?) role), sowing tension and dischord amongst the forces of Light heading into the last battle. No matter which way the battle for the WT went there would be an advantage for the Shadow. Either an Amyrlin under compulsion to oppose the DR in Egwene or a tower with Messana pulling the strings behind the scenes.

 

It would make sense if she is to play the Arthurian traitor role as some speculate. That or I could see Nyn either healing it herself or instructing someone such as Damer Flynn in how to remove it properly, restoring Egwene to a semblance of sanity and self-awareness prior to TG. Just surprised the idea hasn't been broached in 14 pages.

[tipwong]

BS write her in different aspects ie different angles displaying her characters. I don't think he write her out of character in TOM. She is passionate in doing her job and doing her role ---- from two river wisdom apprentice to white tower novice and accepted to wise one apprentice to her rise to amyrlin. Her badness increase from her poor treatment of mat in Tear (though she is better than Nynaeve and Elyane at the time), the struggle for power with Nynaeve in their dark ajah hunting,the bully thing she did to Nynaeve in TAR during her apprentice with the wise one ,the cunning in using mat in salidar (to use him to fulfill her ambition, cold minded to analysis the situation and bully mat into her wishes }, the using of rumors that Rand has use conplusion on sisters{ whether Rand actually have done so or not}, the regret of not take the advice of siuan to remove the accepted who endanger her authority (not sure if i have remember correctly) etc..... i think this is related to her increase in authority (power corrupts , absolute power corrupts absolutly), the sitters constant struggle power with her make her demand more authority from her friends (Nynaeve) and her love (Gawyn).

I may choose her as a leader with my vote, though i would properly say "no thanks" becoming her friends