Too Much

[Jon Paul]

A victory (of sorts) it might've been, but it's nothing like what Rand hopes to accomplish this time around (a la Veins of Gold's "another chance").

 

True. So he knows not what to do this time and really there were only so many options last time so everything's been narrowed down. I'm firmly of the opinion that the One Power wont play a part in sealing the Prison and I think the Lord Dragon will come to realise this or already has. I think his rejection of the Choedan Kal symbolised this.

 

Next to Ishamael Rand Sedai is the most knowledgeable on the metaphysics of the Pattern and the Wheel. It comes with the territory of being the most bad ass guy from an Age of bad asses after all.

[yoniy0]

Knowing the most about something and knowing anything at all about it are two distinct concepts.

[Mandro]

I think Rand will directly conflict with the DO at the Last battle, but I think his participation in the actual battle will be minimized, as presaged by his comment of "I'm not a weapon, I never was." and the Norse trifecta Is Thor, Odin and Tyr. Rand being tyr, rand will have to stand back, only being a suport system, as he combats the Dark One.

[Nooska]

I think Rand will directly conflict with the DO at the Last battle, but I think his participation in the actual battle will be minimized, as presaged by his comment of "I'm not a weapon, I never was." and the Norse trifecta Is Thor, Odin and Tyr. Rand being tyr, rand will have to stand back, only being a suport system, as he combats the Dark One.

I've seen you talk a lot about nordic mythology in a lot of posts and using it as supporting evidence - what are you using as a source? I am asking because a LOT of what you are saying is very far from source materials and historical consensus - and would warn against any modern "neo-pagan"* works as source material.

 

 

* No offense intended, neo-pagan is the most precise neutral term I know of to describe modern day worshipers of formerly dead religions - and too much of modern day works on these are mostly fantasy or fiction (well thats fantasy fiction I guess) not based on existing source materials. To name one very blatant example, Tyr does not feature as a prominent or equalfooting god to Thor and Odin in norse sources (primarily the edda's), and there are hardly any surviving "portfolio" listings for the different gods. A lot has been written based on the fantasy setting sourcebooks like AD&D 1st edition deity books, but these have only the slightest reliance on mythology and real sources.

[Frostmuse]

If Rand is Tyr (which I think is indeed one of his parallels) then he has a date with the helhound at Ragnarok. And he has lost his hand, although to a forsaken and not a wolf - but there was deception involved with one who went to great lengths to avoid being bound.

[Mandro]

I think Rand will directly conflict with the DO at the Last battle, but I think his participation in the actual battle will be minimized, as presaged by his comment of "I'm not a weapon, I never was." and the Norse trifecta Is Thor, Odin and Tyr. Rand being tyr, rand will have to stand back, only being a suport system, as he combats the Dark One.

I've seen you talk a lot about nordic mythology in a lot of posts and using it as supporting evidence - what are you using as a source? I am asking because a LOT of what you are saying is very far from source materials and historical consensus - and would warn against any modern "neo-pagan"* works as source material.

 

 

* No offense intended, neo-pagan is the most precise neutral term I know of to describe modern day worshipers of formerly dead religions - and too much of modern day works on these are mostly fantasy or fiction (well thats fantasy fiction I guess) not based on existing source materials. To name one very blatant example, Tyr does not feature as a prominent or equalfooting god to Thor and Odin in norse sources (primarily the edda's), and there are hardly any surviving "portfolio" listings for the different gods. A lot has been written based on the fantasy setting sourcebooks like AD&D 1st edition deity books, but these have only the slightest reliance on mythology and real sources.

 

No sweat, I didn't believe it either, when I was reading the alt nets in '93, I thought that the literary commentators were overreading early on based on the "one hand" prediction, but apparently, after he got the contract for the 4th book, basically guaranteeing a completion of the saga, Jordan started talking about his attraction to norse and eastern mythology. I don't know this for myself, but as for my description of the 3 taveren being Norse is really quite plain.

 

The Blind God, the Lord of battle, Matt. The Might of attack, the God of strength, Perrin. And the god of single combat, who had to relearn his traid when struck through guile losing his hand, Tyr.

 

[update] and I'm no big reader on norse mythology, though I did collect "the Avengers" comic book series when I was a kid, and I didn't believe the norse connection when I started reading it on the alt nets, but the connections are kinda undeniable now. Matt is looking for a war, Perrin will march into a battle, and Rand is looking for a target.

[htarcan]

I must say I became frustrated about the intensity of "perrin chapters" in ToM, because I don't like when authors act like hiding a big surprise which was so obvious (perrin's resolving realization of his duties). It shouldn't have occupy that much place.

 

I'm sure when I've got half of the aMoL I'll still feel like I'm reading irrelevant stories.

However, the point is, I cursed a lot for long and boring chapters before (through 4-10th books) but later,

almost all connected so perfectly and surprisingly I saw that I needed to read the boring parts to get the

right excitement at the end. So, I hope BS knows what he is doing and I hope RJ left enough clues to guide him.

[Elan Tedronai]

Times like i these i wish Sanderson and harriet sticked to just one book for AMOL like how RJ planned. Initially i thought 3 books was a good idea so as not to rush things. But looking at both books i kinda wished it all was just one book

[Byzantine279]

Well, that isn't exactly valid anymore, Suttree, RJ's plans changed significantly from 1995; he was planning to do an offshoot series about Mat and Tuon, and he did a prequel about Moiraine, that is enough to show he changed his plans, but it just means we are still in the dark.

[firstfishman]

The way it should have gone died with R.J. He most likely would have done it in 5-6 books to ensure it was done properly. I know he said he was going to do it in one, and many people will blast me for saying this, but R.J. would have taken however many more books were needed to do it right. Brandon has a hard cap on only 3 books. Stuff is going to get skipped over, tied up undramatically, and maybe not even mentioned in order to fit the major plotlines into it. Its very apparant to me that B.S. is being forced to cut major plot lines out in order to keep the books at a decent size.

 

Be happy youre getting what you are... It could be worse...

[Mr Ares]

The way it should have gone died with R.J. He most likely would have done it in 5-6 books to ensure it was done properly. I know he said he was going to do it in one, and many people will blast me for saying this, but R.J. would have taken however many more books were needed to do it right. Brandon has a hard cap on only 3 books. Stuff is going to get skipped over, tied up undramatically, and maybe not even mentioned in order to fit the major plotlines into it. Its very apparant to me that B.S. is being forced to cut major plot lines out in order to keep the books at a decent size.

 

Be happy youre getting what you are... It could be worse...

RJ's insistence that it was to be one more book was based on his perception that there was no good way to split what was left of the story. All things considered, he might have had a point - the timeline in ToM is a horrible mess. He said that one more book would be as long as it needed to be. I very much doubt it would be 5-6 books. Even if purely practical considerations did force him to split it into parts, it seems unlikely it would be more than 3-4. Sanderson's "hard cap" on three books is complete non-sense. He was hired to write one. He said it was too big for one, so they adjusted it to three. Do you really think that if he said "three's not enough, I need four" they wouldn't split further? Bearing in mind WoT is Tor's biggest selling series, more WoT is surely preferable from Tor's perspective. And having time to fit in everything people want to see is surely better from a fan's perspective. Really, the only person who really suffers is Sanderson, as he has less time to spend on his own books, but there is no indication he is not putting in every effort to finish this to the highest standard he can - because he is also a fan of the series.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

i don't think sanderson, or his career, suffers from his work on WOT.

[The Fisher King]

I think the only conclusion is that the Last Battle isn't being fought the way we imagine it is. Everything will seem lost, and suddenly Rand will realize that the real fight happens on a different level (world? Plane?). Once the DO will be safely Sealed away, my guess is that the Shadowspawn will simply die/decompose.

 

Thoughts?

 

I is worried this would be pretty much the exact same as what happened at Falme at the end of TGH.

 

But, then, I worry.

 

 

- Fish

[TheBeerPatriot]

I think the only conclusion is that the Last Battle isn't being fought the way we imagine it is. Everything will seem lost, and suddenly Rand will realize that the real fight happens on a different level (world? Plane?). Once the DO will be safely Sealed away, my guess is that the Shadowspawn will simply die/decompose.

 

Thoughts?

I would be extremely disappointed if the Shadowspawn would simply fade away with the sealing away of the DO, it would be too easy and simplistic given the amount of time that has been invested in building the series up to this point.

 

I agree with another post on this topic, that AMOL might be a disappointment. I still think the book (or books?) will be good, but there's no way to meet the hype that will surround the final book. The weight of everyone's expectations will definitely leave some readers disappointed.

 

While I understand that some minor plotlines are being cut of necessity, I would hope the major plotlines are covered in the forthcoming book(s). Obviously, some plotlines (just minor, hopefully) will be left open to let the world continue after Tar'mon Gaidon. But some plotlines just have to be covered, specifically:

-Black Tower/Logain

-Lan at Tarwin's Gap

-Demandred

-Caemlyn aftermath/Dragons Eggs

-Tuon/Seanchan

-Moiraine reunion with Rand/Ta'veren reunion

-Ogier/Book of Translation

-Aviendha/Aiel

-Moridin

-Lanfear/Cyndane

-Rest of Forsaken: Graendal, Moghedien

-Shaidar Haran

-Padan Fain

-Slayer

-Breaking of the Seals

-Battle with the DO

 

That is a LOT to cover, and I can't think of one plotline from that list that isn't necessary to cover. While I believe Sanderson when he states that there is a 1/3 of the outline left to cover, it would not surprise me if AMOL is split again out of necessity.

[OptimusPrime]

Fingers crossed for more books.

 

 

 

definately

 

Definitely not! I love these books but I want it to end, damn it!

[PhoenixUK]

 

While I understand that some minor plotlines are being cut of necessity, I would hope the major plotlines are covered in the forthcoming book(s). Obviously, some plotlines (just minor, hopefully) will be left open to let the world continue after Tar'mon Gaidon. But some plotlines just have to be covered, specifically:

-Black Tower/Logain

-Lan at Tarwin's Gap

-Demandred

-Caemlyn aftermath/Dragons Eggs

-Tuon/Seanchan

-Moiraine reunion with Rand/Ta'veren reunion

-Ogier/Book of Translation

-Moridin

-Lanfear/Cyndane

-Rest of Forsaken: Graendal, Moghedien

-Shaidar Haran

-Padan Fain

-Slayer

-Breaking of the Seals

-Battle with the DO

 

That is a LOT to cover, and I can't think of one plotline from that list that isn't necessary to cover. While I believe Sanderson when he states that there is a 1/3 of the outline left to cover, it would not surprise me if AMOL is split again out of necessity.

 

I was just about to make a list when i saw your post :)

 

One you've missed out is how is Aviendha going to alter the fate of the aiel? The vision was too detailed to leave it as a unresolved issue.

while i loved how many plotlines were resolved in TOM, they DID feel awfully rushed and damned convenient at times (Galad is the worst example) and made TOM inferior to TGS which focused on two big storylines. I don't blame sanderson for this, he just had too much to finish off in a short span. So yes, i fear for AMOL

[AvroChris]

Having just re-read Knife of Dreams, I think I can make a fair comparison, and I'd say I prefer it the way things are at the minute - feeling rushed or not. There was such a massive amount of inertia in the series that feeling slightly rushed is preferable to feeling slightly suffocated...

I would say this is a consequence of the massive amount of descriptive detail that RJ used. It can help to paint a massively powerful vision of what is happening to the reader, but at this point in the series I think it was somewhat unnecessary in the level used. I'm already fully immersed in the series, such that it started to impede the impact of the books, rather than enhance it, in my view. With BS's style, my subconscious can fill in the details RJ painted so well as my mind can be free to absorb the excitement building, and papering over any cracks that might have emerged from the change in authors and the rushed nature of the publication process.

[b3arz3rg3r]

While it is certainly true there's lots to be done I think people neglect that by reuniting most of the cast at Merilor the story will be a lot more streamlined. A number of characters will have the same plot and we'll get any given scene by the one most suited to telling it to us and that will speed up the storytelling quite a bit. I think most of the book will be split in two ways, Rand will have one half and everyone else share the other while they march with that giant army.

On the Light side most have already finished their character development. Perrin is the wolf king, Elayne is queen, Egwene Amyrlin, Aviendha is a Wise One, Min a spunky lover, Nyneave has become a full Aes Sedai, Mat is the Prince of Ravens.

 

I see only a few plotpoints which have to be dealt with before the story can exclusively focus on the war with the shadow. The Black Tower, the Ogier, the Aiel and the Seanchan. Only the Black Tower and the Seanchan will take more time to deal with. The future of the Aiel will be quickly dealt with at Merilor I think and Loial will get his three chapters at the Stump. Skirmishes such as Lan's battle in Tarwin's Gap and the attack on Caemlynn will be over in short order. I wouldn't be surprised if we only heard about the aftermath of the battle in Caemlynn

[CoonDawg]

The only plot line that is really confusing to me is Aviendha's superchildren. That's a really big plot point to make, and then not make any more books on it. Perhaps Jordan changed his mind part way in and intended to have a direct sequel, or maybe he was going to work the story into the WoT plot, I don't know. But one thing is for certain, BS will not be making any sequels. It dies with RJ, as it should.

 

Another point, however: I've just read a lot of people dissing Harry Potter, or at the very least saying it was "tolerable". Anyone who actually read Harry Potter, and gave it a chance, can't walk away with anything but sheer adoration. Harry Potter is amazing, and anyone who denies that is hatin'.

[TheAngryDruid]

Put me in the "worried" camp. I think Beer Patriot's list is a good one. Among the Lightfriends, Tuon and Mat have a way to go, she really still thinks of him as a Toy.

 

I don't think Rand can just go to the LB from Merrilor. Think about it. He's got the whole Cyndane thing. He has to reunite with Moiraine. He has to fix the Black Tower, which is sure to be connected with the attack on Caemlyn. He has to deal with the Seanchan/bow to Tuon. And he has to figure out how to, you know, seal the bore. And have an actual talk with Egwene this time.

 

I think the WT/Seanchan, BT/Caemlyn situations have to be dealt with first, by Rand.

 

While I agree that with Gateways, they should be able to split up. Word should come to Elayne about the attack pretty quick. Some will have to go. Ditto if there is an attack on the WT.

[Orderofolde]

BTW It bugs me when people apologize for reading HP. Not that I've never felt the urge, or succumbed to it, but I still don't like it. It's a perfectly valid work of fiction.

 

Agreed. It's because people will jump on you for reading such an "inferior/childish/mainstream/insert-reason-here" series

 

I would only add one word to that sentence Ashandarei - 'narrow-minded' as in ....

 

It's because narrow-minded people will jump on you for reading such an "inferior/childish/mainstream/insert-reason-here" series

 

I have read the Hairy Plopper series, and I even liked it, for the most part. I had some issues with it, but for the most part it was exactly what it proclaimed itself to be, a fantasy story geared for Tweens and Teens.

 

But anyone who would chose to avoid a book or series just because it is 'mainstream' or 'childish' is just as narrow-minded as those who follow the series for the same reasons. And the irony is that they think themselves better for being that narrow-minded.

 

Back on topic though ...

 

Personally, after reading TGS I could see that maybe 2 books would be enough to sum up, but after ToM, I am truly worried that AMoL will end up feeling rushed. There are several threads on the ToM spoilers board that cover all of the things we are hoping to see in AMOL and I definitely do not think that many of them will be able to be wrapped up in a satisfactorily way in just one book. After ToM, I was thinking that he would need at least 2 books, not just one book. And I cannot imagine what RJ was thinking about when he stated that he planned on only one book after KoD.

 

A really funny point that I would like to bring up though is that back in 1994, just as LoC was coming out (actually during a re-read waiting for LoC), I had an idea that the total series would be 13 books, in part because there were 13 Forsaken and Rand seemed to be averaging killing one per book, but then LoC came out and the Forsaken started coming back. Given that info, I gave up on the idea that it would be 13 books. Imagine my hilarity when I heard that RJ planned on 12 books, and that BS was going to make the series a total of 14 books. All that ran through my head at the time was 'I was only one off, no matter who finished it, I was still only one book off.'

 

Now......I hope that the series will be completed in a satisfying way, but I am actually dreading AMOL, because I don't think that it's going to be any where near as satisfying as we hope.

If we felt that ToM was a little rushed-feeling, AMOL crammed into one book is just impossible-seeming. It wouldn't do the story or RJ justice.

 

Imagine sitting by the fireplace, your grandfather recounting his life, spinning eye-widening tales leaving you leaning forward for more and more over a few hours, then he yawns and notices the time, and summarizes generally the end of the tale. "Time for bed I suppose." We will be left with the flat, deflated feeling of dissapointment and being unable to shake the feeling. The tale needs to be told! AMOL will need to be a 2-parter. Everyone's doing it, it is all the popular rage, from Harry Potter on.

 

If not, some disgruntled fan will spin off his/her own tale that will have the flavor of Jordanized Tolkein with characters that fit into our lives comfortably like old friends. Writing "original" Fantasy is nothing more than putting your own twist on the traditional coming of age of a young man/woman, an eye-opening journey or a quest, a sprinkle of mystery, a dash of magic, and a pinch of heros finished off nicely with a well timed victory for the good guy after much strife and difficulty to get there, borrowing from a neighbor a cup of obscure history and mythology. Forget disgruntled, like Tolkein, RJ has inspired young authors to begin writing already. It will be nice to see what comes out in a few more years.

[capuga]

Another point, however: I've just read a lot of people dissing Harry Potter, or at the very least saying it was "tolerable". Anyone who actually read Harry Potter, and gave it a chance, can't walk away with anything but sheer adoration. Harry Potter is amazing, and anyone who denies that is hatin'.

 

Agreed. Fantanstic storytelling. One of my all-time favorites. I think that some people are just ashamed to admit that they liked a "children's" series. Not me. I loved it.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Ahh Harry Potter good times. I only read it to ridicule my little sister and my classmates who had jumped onto the hype for it. It was so much fun picking that series apart and watch them stutter to defend it and come up with nothing. Obviously it wasn't the least bit mature, but it was worth it.

[DocBean]

I think we can add more things to this list:

 

I'm putting some guesses at how much chapter space each story will take up in (parenthesis)

 

-Black Tower/Logain - should take multiple chapters. (3)

-Lan at Tarwin's Gap - could wrap up VERY quickly. 1 chapter or less, probably part of the prologue (1orPro)

-Nyaneve and dead body - Lan or Rand? probably a chapter for her, or more if she resurrects Rand. (1)

-Ellyne's story probably doesn't need a POV, but will need some screen time (2)

-Demandred - I think he'll be the fans' biggest disappointment, just leading some Sharan or Red-Veils against the good guys. (1 or Pro)

-Caemlyn battle or aftermath/Dragons Eggs - this one should take a few chapters. (3)

-Seafolk - Maybe they don't matter enough to show much of them on screen. (0)

-Tuon/Seanchan - Big 'ol mess here. (3?)

- Rand and the Crystal Throne - Rand is going to have a LOT to do in the last book. (1more for Rand)

-Moiraine reunion with Rand/Ta'veren reunion - Moiraine will have to do something big. Maybe it will have to do with Seanchan. (1)

-Ogier/Book of Translation - Doesn't need to happen on screen. We can intuitively figure out that Loial changed their minds from what he's written.(Prologue)

-Aviendha/Aiel - She's got to get back, and somehow affect Rand's meeting with the Seanchan, and get knocked up. (2 or more)

-Moridin - He'll be at the end of this thing when it all goes down, don't know we need a lot from him before that. (1)

-Lanfear/Cyndane - Rand could Turn or kill Moridin and wrap up Lanfear and Moggy with him. (1)

-Rest of Forsaken: Graendal, Moghedien... - combined with Perrin's and Mat's chapters possibly? (2)

-Perrin's Role - He can tie up some of the Forsaken and Slayer (4)

-Mat's Role - He can tie up the big battle of Camelyn, and show us a lot of first had visuals of the Last Battle (4)

-Shaidar Haran - He could be the one to kill Lan, will need to die at some point (1)

-Padan Fain - He'll need to be at the end to be sealed up in the Bore. He could also be tied in with some Red-Veils, or take out a Forsaken.(2)

-Slayer - Seems like another Perrin Chapter or three, should have been dealt with in TOM. (2)

-Breaking of the Seals - Could happen in the prologue.(pro)

-Battle with the DO - This will have to be more then 1 chapter IMO.(3)

- Funeral and Closing Chapters - got to send some people out the right way and show some aftermath.(2+epo)

 

-other fluff that we've come to love from Wheel of Time, basically a waste of paper. (5)

 

What else is there?

 

I'm up to a fairly long Prologue, Epilogue, and about 45 chapters. Maybe it's doable.

It will certainly need to move along at a faster pace then the first two. After reading TGS and TOM, I'd say they can't possibly do it at that pace, and should have done 2 books at a fast pace rather then 3 books with 2 of them having so much extra fluff.

I would have had way more action and peril in the second book, and left things a lot more bleak looking at the end of TOM.

I wish TOM was darker then one scene of Camelyn burning, the Trolloc horde up north, and the Dark Tower showing us some turned channelers.

[Crael123]

Fingers crossed for more books.

 

 

 

definately

 

Definitely not! I love these books but I want it to end, damn it!

 

 

Agreed. I mean i was soooo so pumped after TGS and now... after ToM i just do not care that much what happens. i just want it done.