Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[Byzantine279]

Egwene is an idiot, to be blunt about it. She assumes Rand has no idea what he is doing, and despite having absolutely no plan of her is perfectly willing to throw away the only plan anyone has because it is "dangerous". I assure you, any plan to stop the DO is probably going to be dangerous. And her reaction to Nyn. supporting Rand is unacceptable, it is as if she refuses to believe anyone but her deserves to be able to lead. I find the way she tried treating Perrin, and her shock that he was capable of doing those things to be yet another example of the arrogance that has wormed its way bone-deep into her. She never even really learned anything from when she met Perrin, I think she forgot the lesson that she doesn't know everything the instant she left T'A'R.

[WhiskyJack]

^^Well Rand did say that he doesn't have a plan yet but he will break the seal anyways. That's scary.

 

But yeh, she is a bit arrogant towards men but that's WOT being WOT.

[GusE]

BTW, it occurred to me that the number 23 (stars in Egwene's vision) fits the full Hall + Keeper + Amyrlin.

Cheers, been looking for a better 23 than the sul'dam captured at the battle in TPoD. Now off to free the damane?! Or will he as I first theorised free the AS from one (or more?) of the oaths?

[Sabio]

Egwene annoys me more the Elayne does. She is what 20, been with the Aes Sedai like 2 years and thinks she knows everything. She gets angry anytime someone helps her. She meets Rand and suddenly thinks she knows the best things for Rand to do. She has the Aes Sedai sitting around the tower doing nothing as shadowspawn overrun the borderlands. I think its funny how Rand is using her to get all the rulers together for him and she doesn't realise she is being played. Can't wait for her reaction when Rand pretty much says at the big gathering I am going no matter what you say or do.

[Zefram]

I am not worried about egwene talking him out of it. what I am worried about would be egwene talking the leaders of the armies out of not following rand, thus removing the bulk of his armies, and pinning em all in the south (I think) while trollocs are sweeping the lands

 

I hope she tries. Two reasons:

 

1) It won't work. Rand can bend the pattern to such a degree, I bet it would permit him time-travel if it was absolutely necessary. If Rand (or at least, the Pattern) wants those nations to be bound to him, it's going to happen.

2) It will instantly thrust Egwene (and by extension the White Tower) against the Dragon, and she'll be driven out and/or killed. This is pretty unlikely, however, since in Aviendha's dream, the WT was still ticking for a couple hundred years after the Last Battle, hinting that they were an ally. If they went against Rand, they would be leveled in .07 seconds.

 

She might talk them down but they will not stay in south with her. Simply because trollocs are sweeping the borderlands, at most what will happen is that the whole army will move on to borderlands to fight off trollocs and prevent second Trolloc War occuring, while WT is under attack from seanchan (or seanchan might join in).

Plus rand will give his trump card, which is "do as I say or I won't go to Shayol Ghul to die for you" plan.

 

But really Egwene needs to get some humility toward men she's become so obnoxious its unbelievable!

[Elan Tedronai]

as much as egwene is annoying, is she so different from latra sedai who apposed LTT's plan during the war of power?

 

Rand needs egwene. Or to be exact, he needs women channellers to seal that bore. He needs a circle.

[WhiteJoker]

as much as egwene is annoying, is she so different from latra sedai who apposed LTT's plan during the war of power?

 

Rand needs egwene. Or to be exact, he needs women channellers to seal that bore. He needs a circle.

Which, to be fair, he can get without Egwene. He's got Aiel Wise Ones, Nynaeve would go with him even if Egwene forbade it, Alivia, the Aes Sedai who were stilled and Healed by Damar Flinn (who are no longer bound by the oaths), Cadsuane would likely go with him and ignore Egwene, and so on. Rand doesn't need Egwene however he most probably wants the White Tower on his side if only to bolster his forces.

 

There is a distinct difference between Egwene and Latra though. Latra had an alternative plan through the Choedan Kal, Egwene though has no plan and is acting out of fear. A highly rational and understandable fear though it may be, it clouds the fact that Rand knows how to seal the Bore, even if it's just the patchwork from before and Egwene has nothing. That said, this is also Rand's fault because he hasn't explained what he plans on doing. "I'm going to release our greatest enemy, then I'll do something to fix everything" isn't exactly the most confidence inspiring reason.

 

Edit: I think, really, the biggest issue here is that for all of Egwene's talk about surrendering, she's not terribly good at it. She uses it to browbeat Nynaeve into seeing things her way, she uses it on Gawyn to make him obey, and she uses it constantly on others to get them to submit to her. However when the tables are reversed, she's not very good at seeing the same logic.

[David Selig]

Egwene is an idiot, to be blunt about it. She assumes Rand has no idea what he is doing, and despite having absolutely no plan of her is perfectly willing to throw away the only plan anyone has because it is "dangerous". I assure you, any plan to stop the DO is probably going to be dangerous. And her reaction to Nyn. supporting Rand is unacceptable, it is as if she refuses to believe anyone but her deserves to be able to lead. I find the way she tried treating Perrin, and her shock that he was capable of doing those things to be yet another example of the arrogance that has wormed its way bone-deep into her. She never even really learned anything from when she met Perrin, I think she forgot the lesson that she doesn't know everything the instant she left T'A'R.

Agreed. Pretty much every time someone has a opinion which is contrary to hers, she just dismiss it outright, even if it's about something the person in question has far more knowledge and experience. And if the person is a man, it's every single time.

 

As far as we've seen, until now Egwene has never thought about what the plan for defeating the DO has to be or what to do with the seals. Yet five seconds after hearing Rand's plan, she's absolutely convinced it's the wrong one and starts doing everything possible to stop it. The sheer arrogance of this act is amazing - she presumes to know better than the chosen Saviour of the world, guided by the Pattern, who's likely had thought about this problem for years and had had people helping him research it. Egwene herself has never ever thought about this before, but immediately is convinced it's the wrong plan. And instead of using the vast knowledge collected in the White Tower to research the problem with the seals before deciding on a course of action, she immediately starts acting to stop it.

 

She even dismissed Nynaeve's opinion on the matter outright and explained it away by ta'veren effect. It never even occurred to her that Nynaeve may be right and that she knows the current state of Rand far better than Egwene.

[WhiskyJack]

as much as egwene is annoying, is she so different from latra sedai who apposed LTT's plan during the war of power?

 

Rand needs egwene. Or to be exact, he needs women channellers to seal that bore. He needs a circle.

 

 

He has that. Rand has actually way too many female channelers in his service(I am actually ignoring Nynaeve here). One of them is even stronger than Nyn and then there is Aviendha..(for callandor)..

[GB]

the only thing which could egwene misguided response is her dream about someone cutting down ropes but her refusal to try at least think of it from another perspective is annoying.

 

i was really glad that Nynaeve pointed out (A Good Soup ToM), that just like the ashaman are Rand's to answer for, Aes Sedai are Egwene's and the beating of rand.

 

and egwene just gets annoyed when Nynaeve points that to her, even Siuan whose PoVs I like , is infuriating, since she thinks that Nyn has spent too much time with Rand; Nynaeve right now, is the among the very few Aes Sedai who understands Rand, and the task before him and what he has gone through.

 

where is egwene supposed logic which would have earned her a place in the white ajah? and her passion to mend broken things? even her ability to negotiate? she hasnt shown any of these qualities when dealing with rand, though to be fair, rand did drop a bomb on her

[WMBunt]

I must have read a different book than everyone else did. I didn't interpret (nor did the scenes, dialogue or actions) any moments that ever indicate the blind stupidity that everyone seems to want to attribute to Egwene (nor the unquestionable wisdom attributed to Rand).

 

I didn't see a moment or scene where Egwene states an intent to blatantly defy Rand over his decision even if it comes to blows. I never saw a moment where she intended to summon armies to beat him into submission. I did, however, read her quite clear and lucid statements that she intended to gather people who could talk to Rand and reason with him to make him see the flaw in his plan. This is exactly the same strategy employed by Cadsuane with bringing Tam to see Rand at the end of tGS. Guess what, it worked. Sometimes people can have a feeling that something is wrong without being able to explain why. Is this any less credible than the feeling from Rand that his action is the right path without understanding why? He cant give a reason for why it is correct any more than Egwene has offered her feeling that it's wrong. And let's face it - Rand has been wrong quite often throughout the course of the last 12 books.

 

The bigger point is that all the characters are flawed. And that's a good thing. Rand is so ignorant to the things going on around him that he has amassed an army of men who can channel and lost control of them. He's created a force of destruction that he has delivered into the hands of someone with malicious intent...all because he acted without a plan. It'd wager it's safe to say that we are about to see wanton destruction and loss of life because of his arrogance and acting without a plan and then walking away to leave things to wallow in chaos because of that lack of a plan and ability to see a plan through properly.

 

Everyone forgets that despite seeing things through to success at the last battle, Rand isn't making plans for the world to continue to survive past it. His vision is narrow and he is focused only on the short term goal. These other people are dealing with issues that are just as weighty in some ways but much more long term. Egwene is planning for a world post-TG with a place for Aes Sedai. The Aiel are trying to plan for their role in TG and a world after that with a place for them and their continued existence. Elayne is planning for TG and continuing the existence of her people/Andor/Caihienien.

 

As for Egwene and her interactions with Gawyn, she needs him to understand that she has a dual role and that was explained very well later. She has to be Amyrlin while also being a woman. She's young. She's struggling with wanting that life without being married to the job. She needs Gawyn to understand that if he loves her, he has to be able to accept the role of loving the Amyrlin in addition to Egwene. For her to be effective, he has to defer to her as an Amyrlin at times without question. He will also have to do the same thing as a Warder. There are other aspects of the relationship she has to learn, but that's part of growth in relationships with people.

 

As for interacting with Perrin. I didn't read it as her being condescending but very concerned for a loved one. She is locked in a furious battle with a Forsaken and a swarming nest of Black Ajah in a world where lack of experience will have deadly ramifications. Someone she loves appears suddenly and takes part in the battle. She has no way of knowing the Wolf Dream and Tel'aran'rhoid are the same. She also has no way of knowing that he has experience with it and hasn't just stumbled into the fray in a dream. When she tells him "it's not just a weave" she's expressing more of the dangerous nature of balefire in the face of what she considers him being heroic without understanding what he's facing. In reality there is the dual nature of balefire. It IS just a weave, but at the same time it's so much more. It's forbidden for a reason. I saw nothing condescending or superior or holier than thou about her actions. It was natural and expected.

 

I think the all to real situation with Egwene and why people don't like her is that people see way too much of themselves in her (even if they won't admit it or can't see it). She's human (as are all the heroes) and that is the greatest strength of TWoT. None of the characters are above reproach and all too often, their arrogance causes other problems and puts others in danger and causes death. Even Rand.

[f3llyn]

People don't like her because she's an arrogant condescending bitch(and has been since she showed up in the first book) to be perfectly blunt. It really is as simple as that. She demands respect without ever giving any and is very quick to pointing out the faults of others while totally ignoring her own.

 

And she never stated she was going to defy him, but it is very much suggested that if he didn't "bown down" that she would use force to get him to do what she wants.

[kes]

I didn't see a moment or scene where Egwene states an intent to blatantly defy Rand over his decision even if it comes to blows. I never saw a moment where she intended to summon armies to beat him into submission. I did, however, read her quite clear and lucid statements that she intended to gather people who could talk to Rand and reason with him to make him see the flaw in his plan.

 

The issue is that she didn't even give the Dragon Reborn's opinion even the slightest consideration. Not even one millisecond. And instead of thinking how to oppose the Dark One, she spends her time trying to build up the White Tower. Yes, it was damaged. But Rand has told you the Last Battle is happening next month - there is no time for anything else. Every single Aes Sedai but the Brown should be lined up in a field practicing 1) making circles, 2) healing, and 3) being weapons. The Brown should be combing the archives for lore on how to defeat the Dark One, and at least one, you would think, would come to the same conclusions as both Harid Fel and Min (especially after being tipped off that this is a possibility and is considered the right one by the bloody Dragon Reborn).

 

She might want to figure out what to do after the Last Battle and how to deal with Seanchan, but first she and the WT need to get past the Last Battle alive. There is no more time and she should know it.

 

 

Some people want to defend her by saying that "Well of course she wants to defend the seals, that is the commonly held wisdom of preventing the Last Battle" or some variation thereof. Frankly she is a leader now and can't afford those sorts of assumptions. Where is the flaw in his plan? That the Dark One will be loose? Of course the Dark One will be loose - he has to be for the Last Battle. So that isn't very compelling. That it is too soon - maybe that would be valid but there is no indication that is her thinking. It is just a kneejerk and pathetic "Don't break the seals!"

[Zentari]

 

I didn't see a moment or scene where Egwene states an intent to blatantly defy Rand over his decision even if it comes to blows. I never saw a moment where she intended to summon armies to beat him into submission. I did, however, read her quite clear and lucid statements that she intended to gather people who could talk to Rand and reason with him to make him see the flaw in his plan. This is exactly the same strategy employed by Cadsuane with bringing Tam to see Rand at the end of tGS. Guess what, it worked.

No it didn't.Last time I checked , it made Rand stand on top of the world with a huge axe above it's head...It had results because RAND sat down and worked his issues out, not because Cad's plan was effective.

 

Sometimes people can have a feeling that something is wrong without being able to explain why. Is this any less credible than the feeling from Rand that his action is the right path without understanding why? He cant give a reason for why it is correct any more than Egwene has offered her feeling that it's wrong. And let's face it - Rand has been wrong quite often throughout the course of the last 12 books.

I would trust the gut feeling of the man who's presence makes darkfriends go blind over the gut feeling of an a Aes Sedai any day.

 

The bigger point is that all the characters are flawed. And that's a good thing. Rand is so ignorant to the things going on around him that he has amassed an army of men who can channel and lost control of them. He's created a force of destruction that he has delivered into the hands of someone with malicious intent...all because he acted without a plan. It'd wager it's safe to say that we are about to see wanton destruction and loss of life because of his arrogance and acting without a plan and then walking away to leave things to wallow in chaos because of that lack of a plan and ability to see a plan through properly.

Yeah , that WAS one of, if not his biggest failing.Don't see how that's related to now though.

 

Everyone forgets that despite seeing things through to success at the last battle, Rand isn't making plans for the world to continue to survive past it. His vision is narrow and he is focused only on the short term goal. These other people are dealing with issues that are just as weighty in some ways but much more long term. Egwene is planning for a world post-TG with a place for Aes Sedai. The Aiel are trying to plan for their role in TG and a world after that with a place for them and their continued existence. Elayne is planning for TG and continuing the existence of her people/Andor/Caihienien.

Hahaha sorry , what ? Egwene is busy trying to get the white tower on top of the other channelers instead of say, forcing the battle ajah to actually DO battle for once , you know it being the end of the world and all that...Avi and Elayne are going at it the right way though Elayne COULD stand to send a few troops.Also, when did Rand NOT try to leave something after Tarmon? His schools ? Trying to secure as many kingdoms as possible ?

 

As for Egwene and her interactions with Gawyn, she needs him to understand that she has a dual role and that was explained very well later. She has to be Amyrlin while also being a woman. She's young. She's struggling with wanting that life without being married to the job. She needs Gawyn to understand that if he loves her, he has to be able to accept the role of loving the Amyrlin in addition to Egwene. For her to be effective, he has to defer to her as an Amyrlin at times without question. He will also have to do the same thing as a Warder. There are other aspects of the relationship she has to learn, but that's part of growth in relationships with people.

Except that like ALL Aes Sedai she puts the role above the woman.That and she DID behave like a spoiled brat to Gawyn (who's guts I hate but he still didn't deserve that treatment).

 

 

As for interacting with Perrin. I didn't read it as her being condescending but very concerned for a loved one. She is locked in a furious battle with a Forsaken and a swarming nest of Black Ajah in a world where lack of experience will have deadly ramifications. Someone she loves appears suddenly and takes part in the battle. She has no way of knowing the Wolf Dream and Tel'aran'rhoid are the same. She also has no way of knowing that he has experience with it and hasn't just stumbled into the fray in a dream. When she tells him "it's not just a weave" she's expressing more of the dangerous nature of balefire in the face of what she considers him being heroic without understanding what he's facing. In reality there is the dual nature of balefire. It IS just a weave, but at the same time it's so much more. It's forbidden for a reason. I saw nothing condescending or superior or holier than thou about her actions. It was natural and expected.

Concerned ? Is that why she tried to BIND him in the middle of a battle with the black ajah and a FORSAKEN ?!?!? She could have said "I'm in the middle of a battle here " or something along those lines but she didn't.Once again she assumed she knew best and that everyone else is useless.

 

 

I think the all to real situation with Egwene and why people don't like her is that people see way too much of themselves in her (even if they won't admit it or can't see it). She's human (as are all the heroes) and that is the greatest strength of TWoT. None of the characters are above reproach and all too often, their arrogance causes other problems and puts others in danger and causes death. Even Rand.

One does not have to see himself in a character to hate it.It could , in fact, be that the character in question is a condescending , holier than thou db....

[WhiteJoker]

I never saw a moment where she intended to summon armies to beat him into submission.

Never explicitly but the implications are there. When surveying the armies gathered at Merrilor, Egwene thinks to herself that the armies she's gathered have to be enough to convince Rand because she doesn't want to contemplate what'll happen if he forces her hand. From her perspective either they do what Rand wants (which she's not going to do), they convince him otherwise (which she isn't sure of), or they oppose him. Seeing as how she can't just let him free at that point since it's well within his power to simply gather up the Seals himself (he can travel and knows where they all are) and go off to Shayol Ghul without them the only alternative is to force him to submit to her will. Yes, she wants to talk to him, however she's already made up her mind that his plan is wrong. Nowhere in any of the conversations in Towers of Midnight show her asking, say Nynaeve, what Rand's plan was, her only reaction can be summed up as "he must be stopped."

 

It'd wager it's safe to say that we are about to see wanton destruction and loss of life because of his arrogance and acting without a plan and then walking away to leave things to wallow in chaos because of that lack of a plan and ability to see a plan through properly.

We're actually being beat over the head over how the new Rand is so wise and perfect that it hurts. Yes, old Rand made huge numbers of mistakes but we're dealing with new Rand now, who's trying to fix those problems before they all run off to the Last Battle. I would argue at this point that Rand is more likely to try to sacrifice himself and only himself rather then waste more lives where as Egwene seems to be willing to a) force Rand into that position and b) waste those very lives rather then let something she hasn't approved of happen.

 

This is exactly the same strategy employed by Cadsuane with bringing Tam to see Rand at the end of tGS. Guess what, it worked.

It worked despite Cadsuane. She brought Tam with the hope that Tam would talk sense into Rand and make Rand remember he was human. Instead Rand snapped and nearly killed Tam. The only reason the plan succeeded at all was because Rand in the end found peace within himself, not because of what Cadsuane had plotted out.

 

Everyone forgets that despite seeing things through to success at the last battle, Rand isn't making plans for the world to continue to survive past it.

Yes he is. He has no plans for himself to survive, he'd like it but he doesn't really expect it to happen, which is very different from making no plans for the world to survive.

 

His vision is narrow and he is focused only on the short term goal.

Yes but consider what that short term goal is. The utter defeat of the Dark One and freeing the Pattern from his touch forever. Not just until a few ages pass and the seal weakens. Rand's purpose is to defeat the Dark One and save the world forever, he knows this and embraces it. His embrace of death wasn't the embrace of letting everything die or failing, his embrace of death was because he's finally accepted that he may have to die, however if he does have to die, he'll see his duty done.

 

In more allegorical terms, Rand's a specialist, all he thinks about is to accomplish his goal. When we're talking about that matter, it might be a good idea to hear him out. When it comes to other things? Maybe not so great, though Rand's almost always had near Deus Ex Machina supernatural affinity and talent in everything. Probably a bleed off from Lews.

 

These other people are dealing with issues that are just as weighty in some ways but much more long term. Egwene is planning for a world post-TG with a place for Aes Sedai. The Aiel are trying to plan for their role in TG and a world after that with a place for them and their continued existence. Elayne is planning for TG and continuing the existence of her people/Andor/Caihienien.

None of which will occur if the Dark One isn't defeated. In order to do that you need Rand; that part isn't up for negotiation or fudging, it is an absolute. As Egwene herself notes, Rand can't be controlled for the prophecies to happen, he has to be free to do what must be done.

 

As for Egwene and her interactions with Gawyn, she needs him to understand that she has a dual role and that was explained very well later. She has to be Amyrlin while also being a woman. She's young. She's struggling with wanting that life without being married to the job. She needs Gawyn to understand that if he loves her, he has to be able to accept the role of loving the Amyrlin in addition to Egwene. For her to be effective, he has to defer to her as an Amyrlin at times without question. He will also have to do the same thing as a Warder. There are other aspects of the relationship she has to learn, but that's part of growth in relationships with people.

Gawyn's been an idiot ever since the Tower divided. I'm not going to argue that she had every right to smack him upside the head repeatedly and break him down some. About the only issue I had with that is that in the end, she also had to realize that she couldn't just dismiss him either. He was right about the assassin after all, and during their conversation after he's been bonded they reach the understanding that in all things Gawyn will listen to her, however in defending her, that is his providence. That differs from what Egwene had originally been pushing him towards, which was complete obedience to her will. Being her warder means that he has to trust her, but at the same time, it doesn't mean blind obedience. I think Gawyn definitely needed to learn the bit about acknowledging her position and her will, and obeying it because hell, if your warder isn't going to listen to you then how the hell can you expect the rest of the Aes Sedai to? At the same time, Egwene needed to learn that Gawyn wasn't going to just be another tool, that having a partner in a warder didn't mean absolute obedience but rather somebody who watched her back and filled in the gaps which she didn't know existed, even if it went against her explicit orders.

 

As for interacting with Perrin. I didn't read it as her being condescending but very concerned for a loved one.

I agree, I didn't really find her conversation with Perrin wrong. Keep in mind that she was in the middle of a fight with a Forsaken, her plans had gone awry, and Perrin had just magically shown up and did things she wasn't aware of. I chalk that conversation on her part entirely on panic, surprise, and bewilderment. I doubt anybody else would have been entirely calm in a similar situation, especially when a friend you haven't seen in... I don't think Egwene's seen Perrin since he left the Stone... suddenly showed up somewhere that logic says he shouldn't be doing things that the same logic says he shouldn't be able to.

 

I think the all to real situation with Egwene and why people don't like her is that people see way too much of themselves in her (even if they won't admit it or can't see it). She's human (as are all the heroes) and that is the greatest strength of TWoT. None of the characters are above reproach and all too often, their arrogance causes other problems and puts others in danger and causes death. Even Rand.

I think the issue is more that everybody else is finally uniting behind the cause and settling differences yet Egwene is the remaining holdout. My biggest issue with her, as I mentioned previously, is that despite all of her talk to others about how you had to surrender yourself to the will of the greater for the greater good, she's terrible at doing it herself. I recognize that she has a lot of very good and logical reasons for doing so, however the fact that she doesn't even consider that Rand may have an idea towards what he's doing is troubling. My hope is that this portrayal is flawed and shown so more for suspense reasons, however there's the troubling implication that when Rand shows up to talk she's not going to listen to him like when Gawyn had been trying to warn her about the Bloodknives.

 

The other thing is that we, the reader, know that Rand isn't insane anymore, or at least that's the reading I have of Nynaeve's delving results. Since we know that, naturally we feel that he knows best, after all he's also got Lews Therin's memories and now knows how to seal the Bore (or so he thinks). Since Egwene doesn't have that knowledge and opposes him, we naturally feel some displeasure for her not realizing how things should be, but even if you take that out, Egwene's own thoughts indicate that she's still the only character who's trying to "handle" him, and we've got at least 9 books showing us that this doesn't historically end well when dealing with Rand.

[randsc]

I think the Egwene defenders are missing something.

 

When they say, "Well, she's a very young Amrylin and has to appear confident" or "She's just quite reasonably afraid of Rand's plan to break the Seals" they seem to forget that we don't need to wonder about Egwene's thoughts and motivations.

 

We have several Egwene POVs. And nowhere is she shown thinking anything like, "I just wish Gawyn, who I love and respect, would realize the difficult political position I find myself in and go along" or, "If only Rand would EXPLAIN why he thinks it is a good idea to break the Seals."

 

She is shown thinking that they need to defer to her. She is shown thinking that people who disagree with her must be under ta'veren influence. She is shown plotting to place the WT over the other female channelers.

 

In short, the character is being written as an arrogant bitch.

 

I think it is intentional. I think she will be brought down several pegs. And I think that way too much effort went into establishing the Halima plotline for it not to have a payoff.

[randsc]

Probably my biggest worry about the series is that my prediction above won't come true, due to certain political realities in the publishing business. By which I mean, I don't think a male author can get away with the chief female characters being humiliated and brought down, even if they deserve it.

 

It is basically impossible to get a fantasy novel published without a female warrior in a leading role. The fact that there are very good physiological reasons why women would not be as effective with a sword counts for nothing. And don't even get me started on female archers. Those can only be explained by editors who have never drawn a bow. Archers in our real history were immensely strong, stocky men.

[Sabio]

Its a common problem alot of the women in Randland have, they seem to act like they know it all and always want to be in charge. I understand Elayne wantiing to make sure Andor survives after the Last Battle but both her and Egwene seem to think they have forever. Instead of just months. Egwene is trying to fully fix the White Tower instead of getting it ready for war. I undertsand she is in charge and has to act like it, but anyone who helps her she gets angry at. Seachean attack the tower Folks come to help her, does she thank them? Her know it all attitude almost got her assassinated. I think I would like her better if she would act like hey I am new, I need to at least ask for advice. Get some different opinions. But she just assums she knows best. She has no idea how Rand should fight the last battle, but she assumes Rands plan is wrong. She gathers rulers to oppose him but has no plan of her own.

[Sharaman]

I'm curious - does anybody have a split of WoT readers by gender?

Not just forum-ites - overall readership.

[nleseul]

Some people want to defend her by saying that "Well of course she wants to defend the seals, that is the commonly held wisdom of preventing the Last Battle" or some variation thereof. Frankly she is a leader now and can't afford those sorts of assumptions.

 

She is a leader whose job description includes "Watcher of the Seals." It's understandably important to her.

 

If you really want a real-world comparison for how crazy this plan intuitively sounds to most of Randland, imagine that some real-world leader announced that in one month, she was going to unilaterally nuke Iran. Would you really need an alternative plan to be convinced that that plan is crazy and needs to be stopped?

 

 

Probably my biggest worry about the series is that my prediction above won't come true, due to certain political realities in the publishing business. By which I mean, I don't think a male author can get away with the chief female characters being humiliated and brought down, even if they deserve it.

 

Because there have been absolutely no powerful female characters brought down and humiliated in the rest of WoT at all. Really.

[Zentari]

 

She is a leader whose job description includes "Watcher of the Seals." It's understandably important to her.

 

If you really want a real-world comparison for how crazy this plan intuitively sounds to most of Randland, imagine that some real-world leader announced that in one month, she was going to unilaterally nuke Iran. Would you really need an alternative plan to be convinced that that plan is crazy and needs to be stopped?

That comparison is so bad it makes me want to cry.IF her train of thought was correct, the world would be over the instant the DO was set free at the Bore.Instead what followed is a lengthy war over the years, so that assumption is incorrect.I particularly like how you compare unsealing the DO to bombing a county with nuclear weapons.

[Arani Lepenque Aes Sedai]

 

She is a leader whose job description includes "Watcher of the Seals." It's understandably important to her.

 

If you really want a real-world comparison for how crazy this plan intuitively sounds to most of Randland, imagine that some real-world leader announced that in one month, she was going to unilaterally nuke Iran. Would you really need an alternative plan to be convinced that that plan is crazy and needs to be stopped?

That comparison is so bad it makes me want to cry.IF her train of thought was correct, the world would be over the instant the DO was set free at the Bore.Instead what followed is a lengthy war over the years, so that assumption is incorrect.I particularly like how you compare unsealing the DO to bombing a county with nuclear weapons.

 

The world IS nearly over. The only thing that is preventing it from starting to collapse entirely is the new Jesus-Ghandi-Lightbending-Rand and his ta'vern influence that rights the world from chaos.

[Zentari]

The world IS nearly over. The only thing that is preventing it from starting to collapse entirely is the new Jesus-Ghandi-Lightbending-Rand and his ta'vern influence that rights the world from chaos.

Doesn't change that the comparison is a joke at best.The only thing you can say those two things have in common is that both are drastic.Or are you comparing using nuclear weapons to fighting something abstract like Shaitan ?

I agree with what you are saying but it's even more reason to go with the crazy plan.First of , if Jesus mode Rand says something you better stop and listen.Secondly for the battle to happen the DO must be set free.If they take their time, the pattern is gonna be so loose that by the time they are ready for it any disturbance from the DO (shield breaking or natural) is gonna tear it up anyways.If they choose to do nothing the pattern is still gonna get too corrupted to patch up.

[Jeangray]

It is basically impossible to get a fantasy novel published without a female warrior in a leading role. The fact that there are very good physiological reasons why women would not be as effective with a sword counts for nothing.

 

There are very good physiological reasons why what _male_ characters get up to in fighting department is massively less realistic than female warriors. But it doesn't trouble you at all, funnily enough. Neither does all that other, you know, _fantasy_ stuff. But oh, can't let those women have some heroic characters to identify with. The very idea!

 

And female characters in WoT get humiliated and lose power at every turn, not to mention are often portrayed as innefectual idiots, so I am not sure what you are talking about.

[WhiskyJack]

Some people want to defend her by saying that "Well of course she wants to defend the seals, that is the commonly held wisdom of preventing the Last Battle" or some variation thereof. Frankly she is a leader now and can't afford those sorts of assumptions.

She is a leader whose job description includes "Watcher of the Seals." It's understandably important to her.

 

If you really want a real-world comparison for how crazy this plan intuitively sounds to most of Randland, imagine that some real-world leader announced that in one month, she was going to unilaterally nuke Iran. Would you really need an alternative plan to be convinced that that plan is crazy and needs to be stopped?

 

 

Probably my biggest worry about the series is that my prediction above won't come true, due to certain political realities in the publishing business. By which I mean, I don't think a male author can get away with the chief female characters being humiliated and brought down, even if they deserve it.

 

Because there have been absolutely no powerful female characters brought down and humiliated in the rest of WoT at all. Really.

 

 

Sweet mother yes! And guess what, they don't have one single seal in their hand. WT never had one. What the hell they are watching anyways?