Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[f3llyn]

Well he doesn't really have to explain his plan. But that's beside the point. Egwene doesn't even bother to come up with an alternative plan or anything to counter what he says he plans to do. That's the problem.

 

Her plan? Trying to bully the most powerful channeler and taverin that has ever existed into backing down on the eve of him fulfilling his ultimate purpose. Brilliant.

[dwn]

Well he doesn't really have to explain his plan. But that's beside the point. Egwene doesn't even bother to come up with an alternative plan or anything to counter what he says he plans to do. That's the problem.

 

Her plan? Trying to bully the most powerful channeler and taverin that has ever existed into backing down on the eve of him fulfilling his ultimate purpose. Brilliant.

 

Her plan: "Uh, Rand? Before you do something that may kill us all, lets figure out if you're insane or not, then come up with something less risky."

 

Egwene believes Rand came to her because a part of him knew the plan was insane and wanted her to stop him.

 

-- dwn

[MrFantasy]

My apologies if this has already been thoroughly discussed (I didn't read every single page of this thread) but one thing I found intriguing about this confrontation and another confrontation in ToM, was how nonchalantly Rand walked into a hornet's nest full of Aes Sedai who were totally freaked out by him, immediately shielded him, and were probably thinking about whether or not they should gentle him, and definitely considering whether or not they would have to restrain him from leaving, i.e., imprison him. Obviously this is partially (and maybe completely) due to his recent epiphany and the transformation that ensued. However, I found it very interesting how he wasn't remotely concerned about the Aes Sedai holding him captive, which was obviously a very real possibility, and it seemed like he could've just walked straight out of there without anyone stopping him whether they wanted him to or not. I believe Egwene said something like, "I had a sense he could've broken our shield without a struggle."

 

This is similar to another confrontation that happened between Rand and the Borderlanders at Far Madding, where he again nonchalantly enters a place he knows he will not be able to channel, and will be at a disadvantage, yet he is not worried. Much of this is obviously due to his transformation that occured on Dragonmount, but then he says something about how if the meeting with the Borderlanders had taken place a month ago, he would've met their slaps with balefire. One of the Borderlander monarchs says it is impossible to channel within range of the Guardian, and Rand says that the Guardian blocks the channeling of the One Power, and only the One Power. This makes me think that Rand still has a connection to the True Power.

 

Why in the world would Shai'tan still maintain Rand's connection with the True Power? Why in the world would he even create that connection in the first place? Do you think that Rand still has the ability to channel the True Power? The only reason I can think of that the DO would maintain this connection for Rand to channel the True Power is in hopes that by channeling it a few times he would grow to love it, and would eventually be corrupted by it's darkness and perhaps swayed to turn to the Shadow.

[Byzantine279]

Fantasy, when he says that he was referring to if he had met them before VoG... "If I had met you a few week before..." (or something like that).

 

Also: TP users are just as vulnerable to a shield was OP users, he is nonchalant because he is at peace with himself, the Aes Sedai don't frighten him anymore. His ability to break the shield and not be vulnerable inside the guardian deals with his Ta'veren effect, it is so strong now the world is set right just by his presence, so it is conceivable he can direct it to break a shield.

 

 

I do have a question about Rand though:

Did anyone else find it strange he did not Channel Earth at Maradon? He used wind, water, fire and possibly spirit, but he did not use any of the Earth weaves. Why wouldn't he have created walls to pin in the shadowspawn and increase the effectiveness of the fire and wind?

[thedragonreformed]

Her plan: "Uh, Rand? Before you do something that may kill us all, lets figure out if you're insane or not, then come up with something less risky."

Actually, her plan is : "Rand, you will not break the seals. Do not force my hand."

 

Egwene believes Rand came to her because a part of him knew the plan was insane and wanted her to stop him.

Well, that is what she believes. Rand's POV in the epilogue indicates otherwise.

[MrFantasy]

Fantasy, when he says that he was referring to if he had met them before VoG... "If I had met you a few week before..." (or something like that).

 

Also: TP users are just as vulnerable to a shield was OP users, he is nonchalant because he is at peace with himself, the Aes Sedai don't frighten him anymore. His ability to break the shield and not be vulnerable inside the guardian deals with his Ta'veren effect, it is so strong now the world is set right just by his presence, so it is conceivable he can direct it to break a shield.

 

Yeah, but even so, he still would've been within the range of the guardian and he should've been unable to channel the One Power. You're probably right about the Aes Sedai shield, but I still think his comment about how the Guardian stops the One Power only indicates he still has the ability to channel the True Power.

[Byzantine279]

No, I believe it was referring to the fact that he would have been able to channel the TP a few weeks before, which we have been given every indication would have been possible at the time.

[Haran]

No, I believe it was referring to the fact that he would have been able to channel the TP a few weeks before, which we have been given every indication would have been possible at the time.

 

This is how I read it aswell. But I still hope he can channel the True Power and then proove my theory about combining saidin, saidar and the true power into one new power source.

Also, why would Rand need to break a shield? He could just use his tavernness and ask the caster to please remove it, right?

[ajfurst]

I do have a question about Rand though:

Did anyone else find it strange he did not Channel Earth at Maradon? He used wind, water, fire and possibly spirit, but he did not use any of the Earth weaves. Why wouldn't he have created walls to pin in the shadowspawn and increase the effectiveness of the fire and wind?

That comes under the 'Why doesn't ANYONE make barriers of Air (like at Dumai's Wells) and tying the fraking things off'? Rand could have done that at Maradon. Or when the manor was attacked in KOD made an Air barrier 10 feet tall to either completely block or at least funnel the Trollocs/Fades into killing zones.

[WhiteJoker]

I do have a question about Rand though:

Did anyone else find it strange he did not Channel Earth at Maradon? He used wind, water, fire and possibly spirit, but he did not use any of the Earth weaves. Why wouldn't he have created walls to pin in the shadowspawn and increase the effectiveness of the fire and wind?

That comes under the 'Why doesn't ANYONE make barriers of Air (like at Dumai's Wells) and tying the fraking things off'? Rand could have done that at Maradon. Or when the manor was attacked in KOD made an Air barrier 10 feet tall to either completely block or at least funnel the Trollocs/Fades into killing zones.

Indeed. The only argument I can come up with for not using Earth was that he was also planning for his forces to retake the overrun forts and didn't want to destroy their terrain advantage, or the forts themselves. It's a stretch but it's really the only reason I can think of beyond "personal preference" since Rand is strongest with fire.

[f3llyn]

How do you know he didn't use earth weaves? A lot of stuff he does combines the different elements. I don't really have an argument for or against this but I'm curious to know how people came to this conclusion when it was never said.

[Hopefire]

Indeed. The only argument I can come up with for not using Earth was that he was also planning for his forces to retake the overrun forts and didn't want to destroy their terrain advantage, or the forts themselves. It's a stretch but it's really the only reason I can think of beyond "personal preference" since Rand is strongest with fire.

The best that I can come up with is that he was being efficient. Earth is impressive - making the ground blow up under your enemies feet is cool, don't get me wrong. But my suspicion is that Rand was able to do what he did at Maradon in no small part due to being incredibly efficient, and I suspect that earth is not efficient in its killing power. That's not to say it's weak, it's just to say that earth might not be the most optimal power for offensive use on a battlefield.

 

At the battle, Rand may have been using weaves that killed an optimal amount of shadowspawn per use of power.

 

 

 

Regarding Egwene's feelings towards Rand: I believe that she has good reason to mistrust him. He is, after all, somewhat crazy by most reports. He's acting a little crazy - he's just walked into Tar Valon like it's his own palace. He's saying he's going to break the Seals. Based on what she knows about Rand, and based on what Rand is saying, the reasoning behind her opposition to Rand's plans makes sense. I don't think that anyone can objectively look at Egwene's position and say that based on what she knows, she's wrong in opposing the plan.

 

The issue is a little more basic: Rand is finally acting like the Lord of the Morning, the Prince of the Dawn, he's followed by a ring of sunlight and the works of the Dark One are undone by his presence. Egwene has testimony from Nynaeve, Elayne and Perrin all indicating support for Rand's plans, for different reasons. And of course, Rand is the Dragon, reborn to save the world. With all of that information, she's maintaining the White Tower policy towards the Dragon that the Dragon needs to submit to the guidance of Tar Valon, rather than being at least somewhat open to the possibility that Rand might be correct and that the White Tower needs to take advice as well as give it.

 

Egwene, in her underlying philosophy for the prosecution of the war, is not so different from Rand pre-Towers of Midnight. Convinced of her own correctness and of the belief that she needs to be one to lead the free peoples of the world against the Dark. Whereas Rand didn't listen to the people around him who warned him that his own internal path was the wrong one, Egwene is being warned that her path as the Amyrlin Seat might be the wrong one, and like Rand, she's not listening. Egwene's views of the world at large are further mirrored by her treatment of Gawyn - and she's almost killed due to her lack of ability to accept outside advice.

 

It's not that she doesn't care deeply for Gawyn, Nynaeve, Elayne, Perrin, and yes, even Rand. The issue is that she has done nothing to indicate that she's willing to actually listen to their advice. I think that if she could, she'd take complete charge of the war, and I don't think that she can see why that would be a problem. I think that even Rand has realized that it's bigger than him.

[NetSlider]

Let's keep in mind people, to Rand and everyone in the 3rd age the Seals are something legendary of nature. To LTT it is something HE MADE. So, it's like pottery I guess, he made a plate that he thinks is crap - to others it might seem wonderful and perfect, but he knows what he made and how. And he has a better idea of what's wrong with it. So, I tend to trust the guy who actually made the seals in the first place in this instance.

[Jhirrad]

The Egwene supporters here are forgetting her line about Rand 'not forcing her hand'. She's not gathering armies to reason with him. She wants to have a hammer that she can use against him if he doesn't see things her way. Looking at her PoV's in the book, there is never any indication that while she will try to dissuade him that she will be willing to listen to what he has to say and his reasoning. Here's kind of what it feels like when I read it and how I see it playing out:

 

Rand: Egwene, in a month I'm going to travel to Shayul Ghul and break the seals on the Dark One's prison.

Egwene: Rand, that's insane! You can't do that!

Rand: I have clear the rubble before I can rebuild.

Egwene: No, I won't allow you to do this!

Rand: Why not?

Egwene: It's insane!

Rand: How is it insane?

Egwene: It just is!

Rand: I understand you're worried, but I built them and I understand their flaws. I have to break them and start fresh so we can actually win this time.

Egwene: I still won't let you do it you stupid woolhead!

Rand: Why not?

Egwene: Because I said so! *stomps foot and tries to pull a non-existant braid*

[Exy]

Instead of trying to understand why he said that (if he's mad enough to blow up the world, why would he walk up to her and announce it?) she's having a knee jerk reaction to the whole thing.Also note that she offers no alternative.

Given the circumstances, she concluded the same thing any reasonable person would conclude: the dude is at least half-mad, and possibly trying to destroy the world, but if not, doing something that poses a strong danger of destroying the world.

 

And like someone else pointed out, "offers no alternative" is a dumb complaint. The alternative to destroying the seals that hold the Dark One in prison is, uh, not destroying them. If I decided that the best way to ensure the survival of my country was to destroy the capital with a hydrogen bomb, you wouldn't have to offer an alternative rather than just trying to stop me.

 

Everyone here who's complaining about what Egwene is doing is expecting her to act with the same knowledge that the reader has. She's not the reader, and she doesn't have any good reason to go along with this nutso idea.

 

 

The problem with her in this book is that she just assumes Rand is insane and therefor instantly wrong.

No' date=' she assumes that he's wrong because his idea is insane. Rand is the only character who has any direct knowledge of the Age of Legends and the events surrounding the opening of the Bore. There's nothing that suggests the Aes Sedai know anything about it, and not surprisingly, given how much knowledge was lost during the breaking and the fact that Lews Therin wasn't exactly publishing treatises about what his secret plan to attack Shayol Ghul was going to do.

 

Doing anything to increase the Dark One's access to the world would obviously seem ipso facto insane to anyone except Rand and Min. And Egwene hasn't had Nynaeve's degree of contact with Rand to lead her to trust him implicitly. Further, Rand has done countless things that, if Egwene knows the half of them, would naturally lead her not to trust him. He's given plenty of reasons to the other characters not to trust his judgment too much, let alone have the extreme faith in him to back him on something like this.

 

 

The issue is that we see into her head, and she doesn't really have any logical process other than 'HE CAN'T DO THAT THAT IS INSANE' and doesn't do a thing to try get another plan.

This is the way any human being in her position would react. Expecting otherwise is expecting her to have the same knowledge that the reader does.

 

And again, this "another plan" thing is just ridiculous. Even we don't know that Rand has a plan beyond "break the seals". If I have a cold and decide to treat it by mixing bleach and ammonia and inhaling deeply, you wouldn't need to come up with "another plan" when you stop me.

 

 

Fighting the Dragon on the eve of the Last Battle? That's kinda nuts.

She's not fighting him. She's trying to get other people to convince him to change his mind. It won't work' date=' and of course the readers know that it shouldn't, but all she's done is not immediately knuckle under to him. That's hardly "fighting".

 

 

Also, the logic of 'the seals are broken = DO is free and we're screwed' is not true. :) And this is something they should know, as the Tower has records.

So? No one except Rand knows that. And the Tower has hardly any knowledge of any of the events that ended the Age of Legends. And of course, literally none of how the Seals work or how the Bore was patched (since, of course, it was a secret prior to the attack, and none of the survivors was sane enough to record their knowledge afterward.)

 

 

Well he doesn't really have to explain his plan.

Right. Because anyone who doesn't immediately knuckle under and go along with exactly what the Dragon says is a horrible arrogant bitch.

 

 

So' date=' I tend to trust the guy who actually made the seals in the first place in this instance.[/quote']

I don't think that's at issue. I don't think anyone reading the books would disagree with this -- the problem is Egwene hasn't been reading along.

 

 

She's not gathering armies to reason with him. She wants to have a hammer that she can use against him if he doesn't see things her way.

If you actually believe she's planning to take up arms against him, you're inventing ridiculous reasons that don't come from the text in order to justify your irrational hatred of her.

[Exy]

This makes me think that Rand still has a connection to the True Power.

A lot of theories have suggested that he still has access to the True Power, but I don't believe it. For one thing, we don't see any other evidence that his connection with Morridin still exists (Rand doesn't see his face anymore and doesn't have trouble channeling.) That makes me think that it was lost when he went into Super Zen Dragon mode. Plus, given that he now really is acting as the champion of the Light, I just can't see him ever trying to use the Dark One's power again. Or even being capable of doing it.

 

And since I at least lean towards thinking he was not granted the True Power on purpose (I know some people think it was deliberate, but I tend to think the Dark One and Morridin did not foresee it), I suspect the Dark One is going to be careful to avoid it again now that he knows that it's possible.

 

I think the reason he was so confident was just because he's Super Zen Dragon now and he trusts (probably with reason) that his being ta'veren or his new magical Light powers will keep him safe, at least from earthly threats like Aes Sedai and Queen Tenobia.

[Beer Rot]

This is similar to another confrontation that happened between Rand and the Borderlanders at Far Madding, where he again nonchalantly enters a place he knows he will not be able to channel, and will be at a disadvantage, yet he is not worried. Much of this is obviously due to his transformation that occured on Dragonmount, but then he says something about how if the meeting with the Borderlanders had taken place a month ago, he would've met their slaps with balefire. One of the Borderlander monarchs says it is impossible to channel within range of the Guardian, and Rand says that the Guardian blocks the channeling of the One Power, and only the One Power. This makes me think that Rand still has a connection to the True Power.

 

I'll have to re-read this section later, but I don't remember him saying anything about balefire. I believe he was referring to the fact that last month, he was still dark rand and may not have been able to remember the answer to their prophecy question. Off goes his head, end of the world.

[Jhirrad]

Instead of trying to understand why he said that (if he's mad enough to blow up the world, why would he walk up to her and announce it?) she's having a knee jerk reaction to the whole thing.Also note that she offers no alternative.

Given the circumstances, she concluded the same thing any reasonable person would conclude: the dude is at least half-mad, and possibly trying to destroy the world, but if not, doing something that poses a strong danger of destroying the world.

 

And like someone else pointed out, "offers no alternative" is a dumb complaint. The alternative to destroying the seals that hold the Dark One in prison is, uh, not destroying them. If I decided that the best way to ensure the survival of my country was to destroy the capital with a hydrogen bomb, you wouldn't have to offer an alternative rather than just trying to stop me.

 

Everyone here who's complaining about what Egwene is doing is expecting her to act with the same knowledge that the reader has. She's not the reader, and she doesn't have any good reason to go along with this nutso idea.

 

 

The problem with her in this book is that she just assumes Rand is insane and therefor instantly wrong.

No' date=' she assumes that he's wrong because his idea is insane. Rand is the only character who has any direct knowledge of the Age of Legends and the events surrounding the opening of the Bore. There's nothing that suggests the Aes Sedai know anything about it, and not surprisingly, given how much knowledge was lost during the breaking and the fact that Lews Therin wasn't exactly publishing treatises about what his secret plan to attack Shayol Ghul was going to do.

 

Doing anything to increase the Dark One's access to the world would obviously seem ipso facto insane to anyone except Rand and Min. And Egwene hasn't had Nynaeve's degree of contact with Rand to lead her to trust him implicitly. Further, Rand has done countless things that, if Egwene knows the half of them, would naturally lead her not to trust him. He's given plenty of reasons to the other characters not to trust his judgment too much, let alone have the extreme faith in him to back him on something like this.

 

 

The issue is that we see into her head, and she doesn't really have any logical process other than 'HE CAN'T DO THAT THAT IS INSANE' and doesn't do a thing to try get another plan.

This is the way any human being in her position would react. Expecting otherwise is expecting her to have the same knowledge that the reader does.

 

And again, this "another plan" thing is just ridiculous. Even we don't know that Rand has a plan beyond "break the seals". If I have a cold and decide to treat it by mixing bleach and ammonia and inhaling deeply, you wouldn't need to come up with "another plan" when you stop me.

 

 

Fighting the Dragon on the eve of the Last Battle? That's kinda nuts.

She's not fighting him. She's trying to get other people to convince him to change his mind. It won't work' date=' and of course the readers know that it shouldn't, but all she's done is not immediately knuckle under to him. That's hardly "fighting".

 

 

Also, the logic of 'the seals are broken = DO is free and we're screwed' is not true. :) And this is something they should know, as the Tower has records.

So? No one except Rand knows that. And the Tower has hardly any knowledge of any of the events that ended the Age of Legends. And of course, literally none of how the Seals work or how the Bore was patched (since, of course, it was a secret prior to the attack, and none of the survivors was sane enough to record their knowledge afterward.)

 

 

Well he doesn't really have to explain his plan.

Right. Because anyone who doesn't immediately knuckle under and go along with exactly what the Dragon says is a horrible arrogant bitch.

 

 

So' date=' I tend to trust the guy who actually made the seals in the first place in this instance.[/quote']

I don't think that's at issue. I don't think anyone reading the books would disagree with this -- the problem is Egwene hasn't been reading along.

 

 

She's not gathering armies to reason with him. She wants to have a hammer that she can use against him if he doesn't see things her way.

If you actually believe she's planning to take up arms against him' date=' you're inventing ridiculous reasons that don't come from the text in order to justify your irrational hatred of her.

[/quote']

 

No, I'm not inventing anything. Let's look at precisely what she has done (from her PoV so not taking the broader view that we as readers have) since Rand came to the Tower.

 

- She approached the rulers of every nation and began gathering armies together in an attempt to 'persuade' Rand.

- From within her PoV, she says that she hopes Rand doesn't 'force her hand'.

 

Let's examine those and see where they lead us.

 

Why does she need an ARMY, much less the armies of every nation in the world, to PERSUADE Rand, unless she means to take arms against him if he won't concede to her way of thinking? Is it just meant to be the biggest bluff in history? I don't buy that. In her position as Amyrlin, she can't afford to just bluff. If he calls her on it, she MUST act, or she will lose all credibility with the Hall as well as those rulers she approached. If she had asked for those rulers to come to the Field of Merrilor and help her persuade Rand, that would be one thing. But in every single PoV where she is discussing this (the gathering) she talks about how she wants them to bring ALL of their troops. Why does she need their armies? What is the reasoning behind that? If we follow her logic, and she manages to persuade him not to break the seals, then the Last Battle won't be starting then and the armies aren't needed there. So then why else is she gathering armies if not to use them against Rand if she feels that he has 'forced her hand'? And it's not just her taking her already large army from Tar Valon there. She is trying to gather the biggest hammer the world has ever known. What other logical reason is there for this other than to potentially use it against Rand and his forces if they won't follow her plan?

[Jhirrad]

This is similar to another confrontation that happened between Rand and the Borderlanders at Far Madding, where he again nonchalantly enters a place he knows he will not be able to channel, and will be at a disadvantage, yet he is not worried. Much of this is obviously due to his transformation that occured on Dragonmount, but then he says something about how if the meeting with the Borderlanders had taken place a month ago, he would've met their slaps with balefire. One of the Borderlander monarchs says it is impossible to channel within range of the Guardian, and Rand says that the Guardian blocks the channeling of the One Power, and only the One Power. This makes me think that Rand still has a connection to the True Power.

 

I'll have to re-read this section later, but I don't remember him saying anything about balefire. I believe he was referring to the fact that last month, he was still dark rand and may not have been able to remember the answer to their prophecy question. Off goes his head, end of the world.

 

He definitely says that if this were a month before their slaps would have been met with balefire. Cadsuane mentions the Guardian and he says that it only stop the One Power.

[NetSlider]

This is similar to another confrontation that happened between Rand and the Borderlanders at Far Madding, where he again nonchalantly enters a place he knows he will not be able to channel, and will be at a disadvantage, yet he is not worried. Much of this is obviously due to his transformation that occured on Dragonmount, but then he says something about how if the meeting with the Borderlanders had taken place a month ago, he would've met their slaps with balefire. One of the Borderlander monarchs says it is impossible to channel within range of the Guardian, and Rand says that the Guardian blocks the channeling of the One Power, and only the One Power. This makes me think that Rand still has a connection to the True Power.

 

I'll have to re-read this section later, but I don't remember him saying anything about balefire. I believe he was referring to the fact that last month, he was still dark rand and may not have been able to remember the answer to their prophecy question. Off goes his head, end of the world.

 

He says that a month earlier he would have balefired all of them. I took it as something he could do than but not now. I think the reason he is so confident is because in some way he can control his tavereness, if you will. Remember, the pattern forces taverens but taverens also can force the threads around them. Remember AS said that they could barely breath let along speak when Rand was in WT - i think he did that on purpose. I think he could actually stop someone's heart just by his will, his control will. He bends Matrix to his will, baby! Neo style!!!

[garion]

Just quick question now that Rand is all intune with himself is he the Tamrylin like LTT was and so has a higher rank in the Aes Sedai than the Amrylin does?

[Exy]

Just quick question now that Rand is all intune with himself is he the Tamrylin like LTT was and so has a higher rank in the Aes Sedai than the Amrylin does?

Tamyrlin was a historical figure. There's nothing that indicates that he's the same person as Lews Therin or Rand.

 

If you're talking about Lews Therin's rank in the Age of Legends, that was "First Among Servants", in an organization that doesn't exist anymore, and it was a political position.

 

Your question is like asking if the Dalai Lama is so enlightened that it makes him the King of France.

[Jhirrad]

Just quick question now that Rand is all intune with himself is he the Tamrylin like LTT was and so has a higher rank in the Aes Sedai than the Amrylin does?

Tamyrlin was a historical figure. There's nothing that indicates that he's the same person as Lews Therin or Rand.

 

If you're talking about Lews Therin's rank in the Age of Legends, that was "First Among Servants", in an organization that doesn't exist anymore, and it was a political position.

 

Your question is like asking if the Dalai Lama is so enlightened that it makes him the King of France.

 

Well, I think you're both right and wrong here. T'amyrlin was a position. LTT talks about how he wore the Ring of T'Amyrlin and wielded the Nine Rods of Dominion. And the organization that existed was the Hall of the Servants and those servants were named Aes Sedai (meaning Servant of All). The modern Aes Sedai built their organization from the rubble of the old. It was the remaining female Aes Sedai that started the White Tower. Those who were still alive from the Age of Legends and the Breaking. So based on that, there could be an argument made that as Lews Therin was the leader of that organization before the Breaking that he should simply retain his authority now, especially in light of Rand's catharsis and merging with LTT. That said, much like Siuan's situation, where she is Aes Sedai but for a time wasn't, the same can be said for LTT, since he was dead for a good long time and could thus be said to have relinquished that authority. The White Tower could also argue that it is a distinct organization from that which existed pre-Breaking. Of course if they did that, then I feel Rand/LTT would have the right to demand all items made by the old organization (all angreal, sa'angreal, and ter'angreal as he would be the rightful owner as the leader of that separate organization. For them to then keep those items (following those conditions) would essentially be theft. I think it's kind of humorous in an ironic manner.

[thedragonreformed]

And like someone else pointed out, "offers no alternative" is a dumb complaint. The alternative to destroying the seals that hold the Dark One in prison is, uh, not destroying them.

Destroying the seals is part of Rand's plan (whatever that may be) to defeat the Dark One. If Egwene so strongly believes that the seals must not be destroyed, she must atleast try to come up with an alternative plan to defeat the DO - which does not involve breaking the seals. At the moment, all she says is that Rand must defeat the Dark One, but do so while abiding by her conditions .

 

Further, Rand has done countless things that, if Egwene knows the half of them, would naturally lead her not to trust him. He's given plenty of reasons to the other characters not to trust his judgment too much, let alone have the extreme faith in him to back him on something like this.

Like the cleansing of Saidin? Until now, that is the only thing which comes closest in impact to the Last Battle. Remember the attitude of the Aes Sedai (except Cadsuane) there? Nesune and the other one? Wonder what would be the state of the male channelers now had Rand been "persuaded" to abandon his plan to cleanse the taint.

 

She's not fighting him. She's trying to get other people to convince him to change his mind. It won't work, and of course the readers know that it shouldn't, but all she's done is not immediately knuckle under to him. That's hardly "fighting".

I wonder what she meant by "forcing her hand".

 

Right. Because anyone who doesn't immediately knuckle under and go along with exactly what the Dragon says is a horrible arrogant bitch.

Actually, its the "Rand cannot possibly be right and anyone who supports his plan must "ta'verened" and I could not possibly be wrong" attitude which makes her arrogant.

[Exy]

Well, I think you're both right and wrong here.

Nope, I'm right.

 

 

T'amyrlin was a position. LTT talks about how he wore the Ring of T'Amyrlin and wielded the Nine Rods of Dominion.

Nope. Tamyrlin was a person. The Ring of Tamyrlin was presumably something Tamyrlin crafted in the early years of the Age of Legends. And possibly a (ter'/sa')angreal. It was probably a symbol of the office of First Among Servants, but nothing suggests that the position was ever called "Tamyrlin". Tamyrlin was just a dude. And he didn't "wield" the Nine Rods of Dominion, he summoned them. They were people; regional governors of the earth, according to a Q&A with Robert Jordan.

 

 

And the organization that existed was the Hall of the Servants and those servants were named Aes Sedai (meaning Servant of All). The modern Aes Sedai built their organization from the rubble of the old.

No they didn't. There's no sign of any degree of continuity between the Hall of the Servants and the White Tower. There's no evidence that any traditions are shared between them; in fact, the White Tower has so little knowledge of the Age of Legends that they use a device intended for punishing criminals on themselves voluntarily, and they've forgotten many of the most basic and useful pieces of magic that existed in the Age of Legends.

 

 

It was the remaining female Aes Sedai that started the White Tower. Those who were still alive from the Age of Legends and the Breaking.

No it wasn't. It was little groups of half-trained female channelers that met up and decided to claim the name "Aes Sedai" for themselves. None of them would have qualified as Aes Sedai by Age of Legends standards, since they undoubtedly had some process for naming people Aes Sedai just as the White Tower does.

 

There's no reason to think any of the founders of the White Tower were survivors from before the War of Power. Which, from the Rhuidean visions, probably lasted close to a hundred years, followed by three hundred years of the Breaking, and then a hundred years before the first Amyrlin Seat was named. So a fully trained Aes Sedai would have had to survive around five hundred years of the most devastating period imaginable to live from the Age of Legends until the founding of the White Tower. Which is unlikely in and of itself.

 

But the way we can tell for certain that it didn't happen is that so many useful weaves were lost. The superior form of healing practiced in the Age of Legends, for instance, would have been awfully useful knowledge. More than that, though, they lost Traveling, which doubtless every single Aes Sedai knew (even those too weak in the power to use it on their own could do so through linking.) There's no way these useful abilities would have been lost if there had been even a single survivor from the Age of Legends.

 

What clearly happened, instead, is that groups of wilders and women they found who could be taught to channel formed and trained each other as best they could and did what they could do to help the world survive the Breaking and deal with male channelers. Probably at the beginning of the Breaking some of them got some training from real Aes Sedai, so that not everything had to be reinvented. But there's no way any Aes Sedai trained in the Age of Legends were around by the time the White Tower was founded. The Tower would know a lot more about Age of Legends magic if there were survivors at that time.

 

 

So based on that, there could be an argument made that as Lews Therin was the leader of that organization before the Breaking that he should simply retain his authority now, especially in light of Rand's catharsis and merging with LTT.

Maybe that's what you think should happen, but there's not much reason to believe it will. The Hall of the Servants is not the White Tower, and there's no continuity between them, and the office he held doesn't exist anymore.

 

That said, much like Siuan's situation, where she is Aes Sedai but for a time wasn't, the same can be said for LTT, since he was dead for a good long time and could thus be said to have relinquished that authority. The White Tower could also argue that it is a distinct organization from that which existed pre-Breaking. Of course if they did that, then I feel Rand/LTT would have the right to demand all items made by the old organization (all angreal, sa'angreal, and ter'angreal as he would be the rightful owner as the leader of that separate organization. For them to then keep those items (following those conditions) would essentially be theft. I think it's kind of humorous in an ironic manner.

That's like saying owning an artifact from ancient Sumeria is theft. It's not stealing if the people who made it don't exist anymore.