Rand & Egwene (Full Spoilers)

[JenniferL]

This is the appropriate place to discuss Rand's meeting with Egwene and the ramifications of it. Enjoy.

[Sharaman]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

[Elend]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

[Kaznen]

Egwene reminds me of one of the kings in the WoT story "Mara and the Three Foolish Kings" even when she was almost killed and thrown in prison she was thinking "this is how it should be" and she never thanked Mat for the rescue in Tear. I'm hoping she has an "eating crow" ceremony like the other two did (when they first talked to Mat in CoS) and it would be funny if it was in front of all the AS and VIP assembled.

[WhiskyJack]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

[WhiskyJack]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

 

As good an explanation as we are going to get. There is no other reason for him to even approach her.

[Elend]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

 

Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this.

 

I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect.

 

Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think).

 

Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO.

[Beren]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

 

Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this.

 

I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect.

 

Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think).

 

Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO.

 

I have to disagree with you on Latra making a better choice. It is VERY possible that Saidin was tainted BECAUSE there were no female channelers to help.

[Axon]

I have to disagree with you on Latra making a better choice. It is VERY possible that Saidin was tainted BECAUSE there were no female channelers to help.

 

Agreed 100%. There is no telling what would have happened if both sides of the one power were used together. It could have been disaster, or it could have been a total success. Though I think, ultimately, the True Power will come into play somehow in aMoL.

[Awakened]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

 

Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this.

 

I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect.

 

Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think).

 

Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO.

 

I have to disagree with you on Latra making a better choice. It is VERY possible that Saidin was tainted BECAUSE there were no female channelers to help.

 

It has already been stated by Robert Jordan, if I remember correctly, that if women had been involved both Saidin and Saidar would have been tainted. The women's refusal was probably something that the Light and the Pattern made sure would happen.

[Elend]

Sorry, no.

 

The result of this was that Lews Therin carried out his plan with only male Aes Sedai, so there were only male Aes Sedai channeling there, which was a lucky thing, because if there’d been women as well, then both saidin and saidar would have been tainted.

 

LINK

 

ETA: To explain, the above quote is Robert Jordan. Its pretty clear that not using saidar in the sealing=saidar not being tainted.

 

ETA2: Okay, I was beaten to it it seems :(

[WhiskyJack]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

 

Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this.

 

I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect.

 

Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think).

 

Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO.

 

 

1) Nope. I would like to see ONE quote that points out to that fact. NO one, not ONE person came up with that objection. Only we, after that outcome of attack on SG have the luxury to say that. So plz, stick to the fact. There were many objections but taint was not mentioned at all.

 

2) Latra P, after the loss of access key still opposed LTT's plan? On what ground? What she think was going to happen? What do you think she was hoping for?

 

3)Eqwene is not capable of judging the merit of a plan against DO. Imagine Rand telling her how is going to use callandor and two women to create fancy new seals and she be like what! Atleast women during LTT's time knew what they were talking about.

 

4) It's larger yes, but by how much? And DO is already touching the world. What more he would do if seals were broken. Now I admit that if rest of the seals are broken and bore was left like that, may be DO can break free in 10 or 10000 years but not in 10 seconds and I am sure forces of light don't have that much time. Probably all the action will happen in less than a year (or even sooner).

[WhiskyJack]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

 

Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this.

 

I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect.

 

Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think).

 

Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO.

 

I have to disagree with you on Latra making a better choice. It is VERY possible that Saidin was tainted BECAUSE there were no female channelers to help.

 

 

While RJ confirmed that both Saidar and Saidin would have caught the taint, Latra DIDN'T oppose the plan because of that. Taint is not mentioned anywhere. It was only discovered once men started going mad (took them decade or two to confirm that).So using taint as an excuse is silly.

[Valsuvious]

You guys ever notice that we are discussing this after the fact. We know that if Saidar would have been used that it would have been tainted as well but we already know this. From the characters perspective they did not. Latra ended up making the right choice but we view it as such after the fact. She had absolutely no way of knowing .. none of them did .. about the DO's ability to taint either side of the source because they had no record of something like that ever happening. With the way that the WoT works, it may have had to pan out this way in order for them to do things right this time. God I can't wait for tomorrow.

[Elend]

Bureaucratic judo. Rand doesn't have time to gather the monarchs and their armies. He tells Egwene enough to get them together in one place.

She does the job for him. Then, as his PoV indicates, he hopes he can convince them logically, or Ta'veren them, into doing what he wants.

 

Basically that.

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme.

 

But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here?

 

Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this.

 

I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect.

 

Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think).

 

Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO.

 

 

1) Nope. I would like to see ONE quote that points out to that fact. NO one, not ONE person came up with that objection. Only we, after that outcome of attack on SG have the luxury to say that. So plz, stick to the fact. There were many objections but taint was not mentioned at all.

 

2) Latra P, after the loss of access key still opposed LTT's plan? On what ground? What she think was going to happen? What do you think she was hoping for?

 

3)Eqwene is not capable of judging the merit of a plan against DO. Imagine Rand telling her how is going to use callandor and two women to create fancy new seals and she be like what! Atleast women during LTT's time knew what they were talking about.

 

4) It's larger yes, but by how much? And DO is already touching the world. What more he would do if seals were broken. Now I admit that if rest of the seals are broken and bore was left like that, may be DO can break free in 10 or 10000 years but not in 10 seconds and I am sure forces of light don't have that much time. Probably all the action will happen in less than a year (or even sooner).

 

And I see you failed to grasp my point.

 

I repeat...

 

I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons

 

In other words the reasoning behind her objections were incorrect. She was still right to object. The Pattern needed her to object. So she ended up objecting, for whatever reason.

 

Similarly, Egwene will likely be right for opposing Rand- though likely not for the reasons she thinks.

 

Do you get the parallel now?

 

As to your fourth point the truth is that we have no evidence of this, either way. For all we know the Dark One could be free almost immediately. Consider how much he could mess with the world back in Eye of the World. The characters within the books don't have evidence either. And discretion, truly, is the better part of valor.

 

ETA: Kinda think we should agree to disagree here lest a flame-war occur.

[ShadowsFell]

In other words the reasoning behind her objections were incorrect. She was still right to object. The Pattern needed her to object. So she ended up objecting, for whatever reason.

 

Similarly, Egwene will likely be right for opposing Rand- though likely not for the reasons she thinks.

 

Do you get the parallel now?

 

As to your fourth point the truth is that we have no evidence of this, either way. For all we know the Dark One could be free almost immediately. Consider how much he could mess with the world back in Eye of the World. The characters within the books don't have evidence either. And discretion, truly, is the better part of valor.

 

ETA: And if you still don't get the idea that people can be right for the wrong reasons I'm pretty sure I'm done with this. I don't want a flame war on our hands.

 

I don't think we can say Egwene would be right for opposing Rand. I think at this point in time she has a basis for questioning Rand, due to a lack of explanations, but the issue of intentionally breaking the seals has been too central a point in the series for too long, IMO, to be wrong. It was Rand that brought the question up to Fel. Even if Fel's eventual response was forged to trick Rand, it was still Rand's idea -- and I'm sure RJ made Rand have that idea for a reason.

 

Even if the DO also wants the seals broken, that does not in my mind invalidate the need to "clear away the rubble" in order to fix the bore. I don't think it can be argued that it was what is needed -- not a "patch", but a true "reseal" or "fix" in the prison. Logically, you can't fix something that is already patched. If something is fixed wrong, you rip open the "fix" and do it the right way.

 

The way I see it, of COURSE the dark side wants the seals broken, why not? It'll help free the DO.

 

However, the light side needs it done as well, so the bore can be fixed the right way.

 

It'll just be a race to see if Rand and Co. can fix the seal before being obliterated, et cetera, by the bad dudes.

[Elend]

^

 

I'm not saying breaking the seals is wrong. I'm saying the delaying of Egwene is a good thing and that this is a similarity to what Latra did- both, ultimately, will have good consequences IMO, no matter their reasoning behind such.

[ShadowsFell]

^

 

I'm not saying breaking the seals is wrong. I'm saying the delaying of Egwene is a good thing and that this is a similarity to what Latra did- both, ultimately, will have good consequences IMO, no matter their reasoning behind such.

 

Oh :). Agreed on that ... I think it was definitely good, I think a constructive dialogue would be, well, constructive for everyone involved. With Cadsuane to help keep Rand's head level, and Nyneave and the Wise One's to keep Egwene's head level, I think it might turn out well.

 

Lol even though with Rand's Taverenness, we obviously know how its going to turn out, or at least presume

[Elend]

^

 

I'm not saying breaking the seals is wrong. I'm saying the delaying of Egwene is a good thing and that this is a similarity to what Latra did- both, ultimately, will have good consequences IMO, no matter their reasoning behind such.

 

Oh :). Agreed on that ... I think it was definitely good, I think a constructive dialogue would be, well, constructive for everyone involved. With Cadsuane to help keep Rand's head level, and Nyneave and the Wise One's to keep Egwene's head level, I think it might turn out well.

 

Lol even though with Rand's Taverenness, we obviously know how its going to turn out, or at least presume

 

Pretty much, yeah. It'll happen when the Pattern is ready I hope.

[Awakened]

My hope is that neither the Pattern nor the DO will get their way this time. I want Paidin Fain to be the wild card that breaks the cycle once and for all and offers the world a chance to do something new.

[Beren]

Whiskeyjack, do you have a reference for that RJ quote?

[tneva82]

3)Eqwene is not capable of judging the merit of a plan against DO. Imagine Rand telling her how is going to use callandor and two women to create fancy new seals and she be like what! Atleast women during LTT's time knew what they were talking about.

 

Irrelevant since there's no plan to discuss anyway.

 

And any sane and responsible leader isn't going around following somebody who just says he's going to do something extremely risky and dangerous without plan. If soldiers had done that in WW2 against German it would have ended in total disaster and Nazi's running the world right now. Thank god we were smarter than that.

[tneva82]

You guys ever notice that we are discussing this after the fact. We know that if Saidar would have been used that it would have been tainted as well but we already know this. From the characters perspective they did not. Latra ended up making the right choice but we view it as such after the fact. She had absolutely no way of knowing .. none of them did .. about the DO's ability to taint either side of the source because they had no record of something like that ever happening. With the way that the WoT works, it may have had to pan out this way in order for them to do things right this time. God I can't wait for tomorrow.

 

Yup. Much the way some folks here are saying Egwene is stupid for not following Rand because we as readers know Rand is right. But Egwene or anybody else has no reason to believe Rand is right or even sane. Remember they know Rand was affected taint. They haven't even confirmed for sure taint IS clean. For all Egwene knows this is taint-induced madness. Hardly surprising she's not eager to just go "hallelujah let's do it" without even given any sort of plan as offer...

[tneva82]

I don't think we can say Egwene would be right for opposing Rand. I think at this point in time she has a basis for questioning Rand, due to a lack of explanations, but the issue of intentionally breaking the seals has been too central a point in the series for too long, IMO, to be wrong. It was Rand that brought the question up to Fel. Even if Fel's eventual response was forged to trick Rand, it was still Rand's idea -- and I'm sure RJ made Rand have that idea for a reason.

 

But what we know Egwene doesn't know. Egwene doesn't know(well duh) that RJ made such a point of it. Egwene doesn't know about discussions with Fel. Egwene doesn't even know Rand's plan because Rand doesn't have one. All Egwene does know is that due to taint Rand's sanity is in doubt.

 

Sure Egwene could just relax and trust the pattern do the work and not worry about but for some reason I'm not surprised she wants to study and plan and not jump ahead without any sort of plan...

 

If Rand wants Egwene's help providing plan would be good. Or even say he HAS a plan. As it is as far as Egwene knows(and what it looks from Rands POV...) is that Rand breaks the seals and THEN sits and starts to plan around wondering what to do next.

[Bob T Dwarf]

 

Irrelevant since there's no plan to discuss anyway.

 

And any sane and responsible leader isn't going around following somebody who just says he's going to do something extremely risky and dangerous without plan. If soldiers had done that in WW2 against German it would have ended in total disaster and Nazi's running the world right now. Thank god we were smarter than that.

 

Firstly, we don't know whether there is a plan or not. We only know that Rand didn't mention anything specific.

 

Second, yes responsible leaders do follow others who don't really have a plan, and your example of WWII is very apt.

 

Stalin had to take it completely on faith that the Western Powers would successfully invade long before there was any Project Overlord. Years before. Russia had to keep fighting, keep soaking up everything the Nazis could throw at them. Not conclude a separate peace. As a result, millions of Soviet citizens died that might otherwise not have.

 

All of the Western Powers had to take completely on faith that America was the correct Power to lead. That Eisenhower was the right Supreme Commander. Again long before there was any real plan for how they would all proceed.

 

Or, in terms that Perrin has expressed, they all had to jump off a cliff and learn to fly on the way down.