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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

Beren

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  1. Umm... this is not the place for this discussion. Just a friendly heads up to get this thread back on track.
  2. Whiskeyjack, do you have a reference for that RJ quote?
  3. Basically that. I do have to point out that Latra was right for the wrong reasons when she refused to take part in LTT's plan, and Egwene's assembly of nations could play upon a similar theme. But Latra didn't help LTT, even unwittingly. How can you draw the parallel here? Because if saidar had been used on the seal it would have been tainted as well. Therefore, Latra was right to oppose the plan- it, ultimately, failed and tainted saidin. Her opposition prevented the tainting of saidar in addition to this. I don't see right as helping the Dragon. I see right as your actions making the situation better than the alternative. Which Latra's do, even though she had no way of knowing it in advance and her own actual objections turned out to be incorrect. Similarly, Egwene is right in that she will be assembling the nations and likely bringing together an actual unified force to fight in the Last Battle. But she's wrong that breaking the seals is a bad plan (we think). Also, we all know that the Bore is larger than it was in the Age of Legends, right? The unsealing will have a pretty large impact compared to back then- the seal patched it, didn't prevent it from growing. They won't have a huge amount of time after breaking the seals to fix things, IMO. I have to disagree with you on Latra making a better choice. It is VERY possible that Saidin was tainted BECAUSE there were no female channelers to help.
  4. Perrin stopping balefire with his hand. Rand and Tam's reunion.
  5. Rand and Tam's reunion is a tearjerker or was for me anyway. You can't really help it after how things went in The Gather Storm. Perrin and Mat, well, I haven't laughed that hard in a while at the series. I agree about Olver. As for AMoL being two parts, I would almost prefer it, I think. I don't know if it could be finished sufficiently in one book. I just don't think that will happen. Everyone, besides Tuon, Egwene and perhaps Mat have had their plotlines developed as far as needed in my opinion. I think it is about time for Tarmon Gaidon to begin! :D
  6. Yes, Lanfear got her wishes. What they are, who knows? Look at what Cyndane has been doing and guess away. As for melting the Tear portal, my guess is Moridin.
  7. There were no Aes Sedai in the circle, only Wise Ones. Brandon said that it probably wouldn't work if there were Oath-bound Aes Sedai in the circle. I just smacked myself in the head. Yes, I am an idiot in this regard. :/ I think they must have just been watching or might not have been there at all when it was forged. I did read this thing in 8 hours and my friend is borrowing it now so I may not be completely accurate in things like that. --- As for badass moments. Perrin takes the cake in this book followed by Rand and Mat who are tied for second. PERRIN 1) Believes the balefire woven at him in T'a'R isn't there and it just disappears into his hand. (I would have loved to get a description of Egwene's thoughts at that point) 2) EPIC fight with Slayer and I love how he won it, by dumping himself and Slayer into a Nightmare where he had the advantage. 3) Forging of Mah'alleinir with a circle putting Saidar AND Saidin into it. This particular section is one of my favorite parts of the entire series. Perin finally comes to terms with himself and who he is and you see it as he is forging the hammer. The imagery here is just incredible. I would think this is a part that RJ had to have written most of. RAND 1) Kills 100,000+ Darkspawn (Myrdraal, Trollocs and Drakghar) by himself. It was one of those moments where you have to go back and reread it just because you can't believe he just did that. 2) Rand walking into the White Tower followed by TWO circles of 13 Aes Sedai who are SCARED of him even at that point. 3) Meeting with Cadsuane MAT 1) EPIC kill of the Gholam 2) Tower of Ghenjei and his luck. 3) His luck got BETTER after he lost an eye apparently. The scene where he just throws a knife BEHIND him and kills a rabbit is amazing. GAWYN 1) 1v3 against the Bloodknives WITH their Ter'Angreal was nuts. That made up for everything he has put us through in the rest of the series. ---------- Touching Moments 1) Rand and Tam again after Dragonmount tops it all. 2) Morgase and Tallanvor (about time) 3) Perrin and Noam 4) Hopper (RIP) 5) Olver (it just made me want to cry when we got that PoV in the epilogue) 6) Thom and Moiraine (the part where he pulls her out) 7) Rand/LTT and Mierin ------------ They've had it coming moments 1) Graendal. It only took how maany dead Chosen before they reigned her in? 2) Byar. Go Dain Bornhald. (I want to see how he resolves this in AMoL) 3) Slayer. Epic win for Perrin, but Slayer's not gone yet. ------------ The biggest reveals 1) Graendal killed Asmodean. (I was wrong) 2) Mesaana as Danelle (I was right) 3) The Tower of Ghenjei sequence (I was partly wrong) ------------ The biggest "Oh Crap!" moments 1) Caemlyn in flames 2) The Black Tower is about to implode 3) Olver... NO! If you do, I will dig up your grave and do something horrible to your body RJ! (not really, but still...) 4) The Prophecy of the Shadow at the end of the book
  8. I was talking about Perrin's hammer being the first power wrought weapon in a long time. Neald in a circle with Grady, several Aes Sedai and several Wise Ones took part in strengthening the hammer as Perrin forged it. It exhausted them all afterwards. It also seemed to Perrin that he was putting part of himself into the hammer. That is what I was referring to. Also, Mashadar is now following Fain around apparently or he has recreated it, at least from what we can see in the prologue.
  9. Yes, Perrin forging his hammer was pretty epic for me, especially after he named it. ;) Also, first power forged weapon made in a very long time. Dreamspike? If you are referring to the hammer name, no. One of my friends has my copy of the book and is reading it now, but the name is something like M'hallneir or something like that. Think Mjollnir if you know Norse mythology. ------- On a separate note, lets talk again about Rand cleansing Saidin. We know that when he cleansed Saidin, he channeled A LOT of Saidin into Shadar Logoth where it was attracted to the evil of Shadar Logoth. At that point, it continued pouring into Shadar Logoth on its own. So, we have Fain heading to Shayol Gul to apparently kill Rand and/or the DO. He now embodies the evil of Shadar Logoth. So what happens when we channel the True Power with the Dark One's taint into Fain. Would it not then follow that the rest of the DO's taint would follow after it? So, theoretically, they could put the DO back into his prison or make a new prison after he has been released. "The rubble must be cleared" seems to fit with this. In which case, we get the DO's prison sealed as it was before the bore was drilled which fits in with how time works in the series. Another interesting thing in this same area that I have to note is this. Fain has been cutting his fingers and bleeding all over the place recently. The Dragon's blood will be spilled at Shayol Gul. The Dark Prophecy in "The Great Hunt" talks about "Blood calls blood. Blood feeds blood. Blood is and blood was and blood ever shall be." Coincidence? I am thinking not.
  10. Yes, Perrin forging his hammer was pretty epic for me, especially after he named it. ;) Also, first power forged weapon made in a very long time.
  11. I am thinking it will come down to this in the end. 1) Rand/Nyn/Alivia with Callandor, Moridin using TP, Logain, Narishma, Flynn, most of the Ashaman outside the Black Tower Perrin (with wolves), Mat, Lan, Galad being the key powers for the light. 2) Demandred (with the second most powerful male Sa'Angreal), Graendal, Moghedien, Shaidar Haran, Slayer (with Dark Hounds), Bashere, Taim and the Black Tower, and the Seanchan being the key powers for the Shadow. 3) Egwene (with Vora's Sa'Angreal and Gawyn), the White Tower, and Fain are wild cards in my opinion I think Elayne has mostly played her part and I think we will see her death in the upcoming book though her babies will be saved. So, I am wondering if anyone has now considered that TWO of Rand's main generals may be under some form of Compulsion that he knows nothing about. Ituralde has interacted with Graendal and we have no idea if she did anything to him. Bashere has spent time with Taim and Min sees a dark aura around him. I think the forces of the Light might be in more trouble than we first thought at the end of this book. Going into the final battles, we have: The White Tower about to be walloped by the Seanchan, the Black Tower falling to the Shadow as far as anyone can see, two of Rand's greatest generals possibly corrupted by the Shadow, Rand and the White Tower at odds, Rand the Sea Folk at odds, Caemlyn in flames and being overrun by Darkspawn and STILL not news on where Demandred is. I actually feel worse after thinking about where the forces of the Light are at the end of this book than I did at the end of TGS. The Darkspawn have started pouring out of the Blight and Randland is still somewhat in chaos... As for you people who are talking about the Oath Rod, here is my very simple theory. I think Mesaana would be insulted if you called her Black Ajah or a Darkfriend. She is one of the Chosen, far beyond any of them in rank and power. She can truthfully say she is not Black Ajah or a Darkfriend because she is not. She is a Chosen.
  12. Perrin meets him in T'a'R as the wolf, Boundless. He explains to Perrin that he is completely wolf and that is alright for him and Perrin begins to understand that he can accept the wolf part of him without losing his humanity. He does not have to be like the other wolves, but he does need to accept that the wolf is part of him. He needed to understand his pieces and while Hopper showed most of that to him, Boundless (Noam) was the final piece that put it all together. After that, Perrin took up leadership of his group willingly and without a second thought. He is like a completely new character almost after that experience, even though he is still Perrin. I guess you could say that it caused him to become who the Wheel needed him to be. It had been running him around forever so he could finally get it all figured out including his official trial before the Children of Light for the two Children he killed.
  13. I know, but why Graendal? Moghedien would have served equally well. Does nuked mean Balefired? The big unnoticed thing from books 4-6... I'm kind of worried about that. Since no one but Terez has even hesitantly claimed to have figured this out, I wonder if maybe it isn't all that great as Brandon made it out to be. Moghedien has been busy getting all the assassin's after Mat and Perrin according to TGS. No, blasted with fire if I remember correctly. I think it was the wolf mainly because after meeting Noam as Boundless in T'a'R, Perrin finally gets himself sorted out and does what he needs to. Mat's ashandarei was important, but I don't think was the unnoticed thing because it only had a small part to play, while Perrin's plotline was affected FAR more by the wolf. Definitely don't think it was the skimming as that also didn't play a huge part.
  14. I think it sounds more like Rand, like this post from the RAFO board suggests. Lews Therin was "first among servants." Definitely possible. Broken Wolf... I wonder... Slayer? We know he is Moridin's servant now. He seems to be able to enter and leave T'a'R at will. Did some accident with T'a'R and becoming a wolfbrother happen to him? The fact that it says he will be consumed by the Midnight Towers makes me wonder. It appears Perrin has already been mentioned as the Fallen Blacksmith so who, exactly, is the broken wolf who will cause such a problem for the Light when he dies.
  15. I guess I will throw this in here because I can. These are my longstanding predictions for this book since shortly after TGS was released and a couple from before that were confirmed. Trued Predictions of Mine: 1) Mesaana = Danelle --- I did my research and it took me a while, but there is one Danelle scene in Caemlyn, I think, that confirmed it for me earlier in the series. 2) Mat's ashandarei was EXTREMELY important and we ALL missed exactly why. I was on the right track though that it didn't seem to belong with what he had asked, but, it turns out, it actually did belong with one of his wishes. 3) Gholam would be killed with a skimming gateway. Honestly, I couldn't see any other way to finish it off besides starving it. 4) Graendal survived Rand nuking her palace. 5) There were still Bloodknives in the White Tower. Possibly Fulfilled Predictions of Mine: 1) Olver would help Mat's group get out of the ToG. Based on his PoV in the prologue, I have to wonder if he somehow had a hand in helping them escape. His game seemed to follow far too closely to what actually happened. Epic Failed Predictions of Mine 1) Moiraine/Lanfear killed Asmodean 2) Graendal would die in ToM (she might as well be dead now though) 3) Demandred would have his big reveal. (I think I finally got him, but no big reveal this book.) 4) Egwene would kill Mesaana (only broke her mind) Perrin was her target, but he got his act together and outsmarted her and Slayer with the help of Hopper (RIP). Let's just say that Perrin became completely awesome in this book. From off the top of my head I can tell you Alviarin got nuked by Egwene and Mesaana (Danelle) had her mind snapped by Egwene. What, exactly are you talking about?
  16. 1) Mesaana is not dead. She is mentally broken. May not even have a mind left. Remember the Wise Ones talking about how one woman came back from her dreams as pretty much a vegetable? That's Mesaana after this book. 2) How Aran'gar died is finished in this book. 3) Uh, nope, Graendal is an utter failure... :/ 4) Asmo's killer 5) A bit of a cryptic Jendai Prophecy. Really caused more questions than it answered. 6) Yes, quite a bit. We find out who he has been working for this whole time. As for Slayer's background, still nothing more than we know, that he is an amalgamation of Luc and Isam. 7) Nothing more on Fain specifically, though I believe he is the "first among vermin" mentioned in the prophecy at the end of the book.
  17. I don't think it predicts doom and gloom for the Light, but rather for the Shadow. I commented on this already, but look at the specific wording in the last section. If it is a prophecy for the Shadow then that last line would be directed at them... not at those who are on the side of the Light.
  18. I would love to hear your take on the Dark Prophecy at some point Fish. If I recall, you have done a pretty good job of reading these things in the past. Also, what do you all think about "the three becoming one," "knowing the pieces" and Perrin with his three pieces of the hammer being forged? Foreshadowing here? If so, I would say the pieces are the following; Rand is the head of the hammer, Perrin is cap piece that holds it all together and Matt is the handle. Three ta'veren, three pieces of a hammer, the three must be as one. Just a thought. Also, Nalaam as Demandred? Possible? Plausible?
  19. Daughter of the Night, she walks again. The ancient war, she yet fights. Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die, yet serve still. Who shall stand against her coming? The Shining Walls shall kneel. Blood feeds blood. Blood calls blood. Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be. ------ This certainly refers to Lanfear. The interesting thing in this is the part about Rand, assuming that he is the new lover she seeks. It says that he will server her and die, yet serve still. It also seems to imply that she will have something to do with destruction at the White Tower. Now, seeing how things have turned out between Egwene and Rand, will she try to hold him back from destroying the seals? Is it possible that Lanfear will actually need to rescue him from The White Tower? ------ The man who channels stands alone. He gives his friends for sacrifice. Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal. Which will he choose? Which will he choose? What hand shelters? What hand slays? (refrain) ------- I think this refers to Ishamael. Here is my reasoning. This is a prophecy of the Shadow. Thus, would it not be prophesying about those following the Shadow? Ishamael has certainly been sacrificing the other Forsaken in order to get what he needs. I think this refers to the final sealing of the DO's prison. I think that Ishamael will be the one who holds back the Dark One using the True Power while Rand and two women remake the prison. The roads refer to the path he chooses at the end. He can choose to hold the DO back with the True Power and be sealed away with him forever inside the prison (death beyond dying) or to let the Dragon fail again and continue fighting the Dragon over and over (life eternal). Depending on his choice, he will either shelter the Dragon or slay him. -------- Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom. Isam waited in the high passes. The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now course, and kill. One did live, and one did die, but both are. The Time of Change has come. (refrain) --------- Here we have Slayer. We still don't know all about him. This prophecy came true when Rand was not consumed by the darkness at the end of the last book. We see Perrin watching him on the mountain in ToM and when Rand repels the darkness, the wolves all say that the last hunt has begun. The time of Change has come refers to what we see in the normal world where things keep changing, whole towns now appearing and disappearing. --------- The Watchers wait on Toman's Head. The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree. Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great Lord comes. Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great Lord comes. Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great Lord comes. Now the Great Lord comes. --------- This I am taking line by line. 1) This refers to the Seanchan arriving 2) The Seanchan taking Almoth Plain? Supposedly, the nation of Almoth had a cutting of the Tree of Life. 3) This refers to the battle in the skies over Falme. Rand was given the wound and death sowed. After this, we see the ridiculous summer, I think due to Rand's wound and the fact that the land is becoming one with the Dragon. 4) This is when everything begins spoiling and people begin to have their bodies just rot away or turn to dust. This happens because of the Darkness in Rand. 5) Seanchan taking The White Tower? This would fit with a prophecy of the shadow. To them, The White Tower would be an ancient wrong. 6) This, I think shows that the above things must happen before the DO can be released. I am most unsure about this last section, but I think that people have the part about "man who channels" completely off. ----- Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty. ----- Seems pretty obvious ----- In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself. ------- One-Eyed Fool is Mat. I am guessing that the halls of mourning might refer to Finnland. First among Vermin seems like Fain. Here you go all you Fain lovers, he is in the prophecies. He will lift his hand to kill Rand and let the DO free. The Fallen Blacksmith, in my mind, must be Perrin. The Broken Wolf seems to be Ishamael, who is also known as Heartfang. I believe that it was he who created the Darkhounds. He is now called Moridin thus the part about "the one whom Death has known. I think the last bit about Ishamael means that he will die, but that it will be at the hand of his allies. I think this will cause some sort of problem as I think he will turn back to help the Light. (see my theory on sealing the DO away) ------- And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction! -from The Prophecies of the Shadow ------- The last bit talks about the final triumph of the Light. The Lord of Evening will come and spill the blood of the Dragon, who will be the Broken Champion because his other half, Moridin/Ishamael, will have been killed. The spilling of the blood will complete the seal and the souls of those who server the DO will be sealed away with him in Darkness forever. They will beg for their destruction. I think this prophecy is actually one that favors the light... Strange, but it seems possible. Also, I think this thing deserves a thread of its own once the book comes out on Nov. 2 and this place is opened up to allow people to post threads. I will do a reposting then along with any other pertinent information discussed here.
  20. Oh, they get Traveling all right and from Avhienda's visions of the future, that is NOT a good thing at all.
  21. I remember someone around here suggested pushing the Gholam off a skimming platform. I wish I knew who that was... They called it perfectly. My reasoning behind Perrin dying is twofold. First, the mythology and second, the Dark Prophecy.
  22. Also, some of what people say in this book about Mat further solidify his ties with the figure of Odin... Based on several other things in the Norse mythology, I think that Perrin is going to die in TG, being killed by the leader of the Wild Hunt who will in turn be killed by someone very close to Perrin.
  23. I see. Have they bonded Asha'man? I assume not, right? Yet, they haven't informed the Hall? Weird. Oh excellent! I assume she's supporting his plan? And the Sedai thing was foreshadowed. She thinks how weird it is that men in the AoL were called Aes Sedai too. Glad this relationship seems to have worked out. So, relations between them are not cordial? EDIT: And thanks a lot for all these answers! Really making my day here! 1) They haven't bonded yet. The sticking point seems to be that Taim won't allow them to bond full Asha'man only Dedicated or Soldiers. 2) They're in contact with the Tower at least because Nynaeve recieves Lan's bond from Myrelle. 3) Cadsuane seems to be mostly supporting Rand now. He's no longer tempermental and full of explosive tempers, and she seems to be adapting to treat him with the respect he deserves. 4) Egwene and Nynaeve have some heated words between them, but things appear to be on the mend for them with Nynaeve starting to refer to Egwene as "Mother", etc. One really cool scene was when Rand first returns to Tear after his episode on Dragonmount and his meeting with Egwene. He orders all of the High Lords assembled in a row and walks up and down the line, making each of them look into his eyes. He then orders Weiramon and Anaiyella to leave and deliver a message to all the other Darkfriends that they can no longer hide among his allies because he is no longer blind to them. How about when he blinds a DF with his radiance? :D
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