Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Finnssss22]

And if a man, no matter how powerfull he is, can be shielded by even 13 of the weakest women. It seems to imply that a man's strength in the power, amplified or not, does not matter.

 

Like I said, we can go back and forth on this all day and neither of us can prove or disprove the other.

There's simply just not any hard evidence one way or the other.

I disagree; there is evidence. For one, we know that you have to be considerably stronger than someone in order to Shield them, while they're embracing the Source. For another, a circle of 13 AS is considerably stronger than any man is unaided, therefore it can overwhelm them. Nothing inconsistent about that, and no need to suggest any other mechanism that kicks-in at 13 (so I'm pulling the Occam card, I guess).

 

Also, Rand makes a point of mentioning that he's only holding a little more because he expects trouble from damane, who cannot Link. He postulated that he might also be strong enough like that to resist a full circle, but that doesn't concern him at the time. It's more than suggestive that holding more would make that speculation a sure thing, otherwise the possibility wouldn't exist to begin with.

 

Finally, it's not true that 13 of the weakest female channelers can overwhelm any man. I said 13 AS, just as Asmodean did:

Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard.

Which further proves my point (i.e., if 13 Morgases can't take Rand without an angreal, then there's nothing magical about the number at all).

 

Nope, sorry, agree to disagree.

There is no conclusive evidence either way and for every instance where you quote Rand guessing that he might be able to do this or do that, I could LTT rambling the opposite or even one of the female Forsaken needling one of the male forsaken about what even 13 untrained women would mean to them.

 

AGAIN, we are both just guessing here man and neither of us can offer definitive proof.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Finnssss

[Amandera]

Finally, it's not true that 13 of the weakest female channelers can overwhelm any man. I said 13 AS, just as Asmodean did:

Thirteen women who can barely channel could overpower most men, linked. The thirteen weakest women in the Tower could overpower you or any man, and barely breathe hard.

This is as conclusive as it gets. 13 Morgase can shield, say, Damer Flinn, but not Rand. That would take 13 Daigian Moseniellin.

[yoniy0]

Nope, sorry, agree to disagree.

There is no conclusive evidence either way and for every instance where you quote Rand guessing that he might be able to do this or do that, I could LTT rambling the opposite or even one of the female Forsaken needling one of the male forsaken about what even 13 untrained women would mean to them.

 

AGAIN, we are both just guessing here man and neither of us can offer definitive proof.

Finnssss, I'll never deny you the option of disagreeing simply on principle, but you're not actually providing evidence; and your suggestions fall short because of that. Point in case, what Lanfear told Rahvin was this:

"Channel?" he sneered. "She is not strong enough to be allowed outdoors without a keeper. They call untutored children Aes Sedai when half what they know is self-taught tricks and the other half barely scratches the surface."

"Would you still be so complacent if those untutored children put a circle of thirteen around you?" The cool mockery in her voice stabbed him, but he did not let it show.

Which again only demonstrates that 13 AS would be able to overpower Rahvin.

 

On the other hand, I've provided with several pieces of evidence to support my position. They aren't definitive, I'll give you that. But to counter them you'll have to address them specifically rather than dismissing them out of hand. I think I've done you that same courtesy. Or, as I said above, you can simply remain unconvinced, but then please don't claim equal footing.

Edited November 26, 2012 by yoniy0

[Barid Bel Medar]

All that the text has said is that 13 of the weakest Aes Sedai match even the strongest male channeller unaided. Which is reasonable. 13 weak Aes Sedai add up to 1 strong man, simple enough. Everyone who has said this mentions nothing about sa/angreal, and the Aes Sedai don't even know of male angreal (besides callandor which was virtually non-existent until Rand took it)

 

It is also established that the more Power one is holding, the harder it is to Shield them. Example, Rand easily Shielded Elayne and Egwene, despite them holding the power because of the overwhelming strength difference at the time. Several OP battles involved this, I think it is common enough knowledge not to have to point to other specific references. Again, reasonable conclusion.

 

Sa'/angreal increase the amount of Power one is able to draw upon. The Fat Man allowed Rand to overpower Asmodean when they grappled over the Chodean Kal. Rand, with the Chodean Kal, could Shield 1000 Aes Sedai with ease because he held so much of the OP.

 

The reasonable conclusion, along with Yoniy0's other evidence is that, when drawing from a sa'angreal like Callandor, the Power required to Shield a man is increased 100 fold, since his power level has increased proportionately. Which would mean that it would take a greater power than 13 weak Aes Sedai linked. Since effectively the 1 strong man is now comparable to 100 with Callandor.

 

Strength is in fact the key to Shielding. A stronger channeler can overpower a weaker one, while the weaker one cannot do so without some kind of trick. Shielding revolves almost entirely around strength proportions. To say that strength does not in fact matter in this case goes against the very principle of Shielding itself.

 

Now, like Yoniy0 said, it is fine to disagree, and I won't try to convince you further than this one post, agree to disagree. As you state, there is no definitive answer to the question. However, there is no evidence, textual or logical, that supports such a theory, and all we know about the subject, both textually and logically points to Yoniy0's conclusion. It isn't a 50/50 here, I would say it was more a 80/20 split.

 

I am of course open to 13 being a magical number revealed in aMoL, there is a lot of things involving 13, however, as things stand, it would take a break in logic and/or a new element of the Power revealed to be proved true, whereas Yoniy0's conclusion is based on the logic and rules already established.

 

 

Edit: Oh, remembered another piece (this is not debating with you Finnssss, but more for everyone who looks at it so they can come to their own conclusion).

 

When Rand went to Tar Valon, he was Shielded and held by 2 full circles (26 all up). So the Aes Sedai do not believe that the 13 is a perfect method. Of course, Aes Sedai aren't exactly the authority when it comes to these things, but it shows that the 13 linked method is not thought to be perfect, just the common thing pre-EotW.

 

Also, it is the largest link that can be made without a man, so 13 is the strongest they could do, which plays a factor in the history of 13, when men cannot link at all without a woman's aid. (The Forsaken thing is already answered, they do not mention any sa/angreal, and Lanfear was talking about Rhavin unaided or not linked. Lews Therin's ramblings are hardly indicative, but he also doesn't mention sa/angreal.)

Edited November 26, 2012 by Barid Bel Medar

[Hagazussa]

A Well? Maybe, but I don't think so. Certainly not if one was Severed.

EDIT3: RJ confirmed that one could.

 

Thank you for the information.

[Agitel]

There are those especially skilled at shielding, of course. Strength is terribly important and in most cases the definitive issue, but an especially talented shielder could likely achieve the same or better results with less power.

[Whizbang]

If you need to be considerably stronger than someone to be able to shield them while they are holding the Source, how does Nyn block Mogi in Tanchico? This always bugged me. They were evenly matched in power at the time. Nyn is stronger now, of course, and so should be able to pull it off, but not at the time. This makes the battle slightly nonsensical. Mogi, after realizing that Nyn matched her in strength (or near enough), should have simply let Nyn uselessly batter at her link while she (Mogi) channeled something a little more destructive.

[yoniy0]

Mogi, after realizing that Nyn matched her in strength (or near enough), should have simply let Nyn uselessly batter at her link while she (Mogi) channeled something a little more destructive.

Maybe they have to actively resist your attempt for the strength difference to matter? I'm not sure.

[Whizbang]

Mogi, after realizing that Nyn matched her in strength (or near enough), should have simply let Nyn uselessly batter at her link while she (Mogi) channeled something a little more destructive.

Maybe they have to actively resist your attempt for the strength difference to matter? I'm not sure.

 

When Verin and Alanna linked and tried to shield Rand, after Alanna Bonded him, he felt them try to shield him, but the strength of his link to the Source repelled their efforts, without any effort on his part. Yes, he immediately wove his own shields and blocked them, but that was after their shield already failed.

 

"What did you do?" he demanded. In a fury, he seized saidin. The strength of it helped hold him upright. "What did you do?"

 

Something beat at the flow between him and the True Source. They were trying to shield him! Weaving his own shields, he slammed them into place. He truly had gone far, and learned much, since Verin last saw him. Verin staggered, puting a hand on the table for support, and Alanna grunted as if he had punched her.

 

Nothing in that says he actively blocked/fought their shield. Maybe, though, as the strength of the shielder gets closer to the strength of the shieldee, the shieldee has to fight the shielding more and more. I dunno. I just know that it has been mentioned in a few places that it takes someone who is much stronger to shield someone actively channeling.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Whizbang

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Nynaeve/Moggy match was much closer. It is possible to Shield someone who is stronger than you if you use the right method. However, I believe there is a limit.

 

Moggy/Nynaeve were evenly matched, so either one could have Shielded the other.

 

In Rand's case, he is insanely strong compared to Verin and Alanna (not linked) that he was too strong that the effort was worthless.

 

To use an analogy, Nynaeve/Moggy was like two swordsmen in battle, either one has the chance of winning. With Rand, it was like they were attacking him with a rubber duck.

 

 

As to why Moggy didn't break free, that's a different question. Well, actually, she did eventually break free, as she disappeared. But I can only think of a few reasons why she may not have tried to immediately. a) she was too stunned because of her overconfidence b) she is a coward, like we see when she is leashed in TAR. She could have escaped, but her cowardly nature made it impossible. She was too busy being scared out of her mind to think of it.

[yoniy0]

I like your explanation. As close as you get to being able to do it no matter what, the easier it would become. But it might not be a binary-state thing, as in either you can or you can't. Circumstance can play a role.

 

As for examples for it acting the other way around, see Moiraine and Merean, Lanfear and Rand at the docks, and Rand and Asmodean. All examples of fairly evenly-matched couples.

 

EDIT:

Barid, once someone is Shielded it doesn't take that much power to hold them. A weaker channeler could do it, which is why Nynaeve had no problem holding on to Moghedien once she was Shielded.

Edited November 26, 2012 by yoniy0

[Barid Bel Medar]

Ahh thanks. I had wondered what the ratio was. I was all confused about it because of Nynaeve's surprise at the Kinswoman being able to hold her Shield. I didn't think that she was particularly weak, but I read back and it appears that she was quite weak.

 

Well, that makes that matter simple then. It also begs the question, how did Moggy escape?

 

Being Shielded also Shields you from the use of True Power as per RJ:

INTERVIEW: Jul 19th, 2005

TOR Questions of the Week Part III (Verbatim)

Shielding against the One Power will indeed stop someone from reaching for the True Power.

 

While I typed this, I came to the conclusion that she just did what Rand did with a tied off shield when he escaped in LoC.

[BFG]

I don't have the quote to hand, but doesn't Lanfear say after partially shielding Asmodean that it's possible to escape you just need to accept pain? Although we haven't seen much evidence of this, Rand doesn't experience pain (as such) when escaping from the box. Maybe Lanfear is just referring to a 'partial' shield

[Barid Bel Medar]

The Shield on Asmodean wasn't your typical Shield. It was different. He could still channel, she just reduced his access. It's a different thing altogether, although I don't know the specifics of it.

[Mr Ares]

Thanks Yoniy0 - that's something I've been trying to remember is whether it was 13 channelers or 13 AS, I think I may now have to side with Mr Ares(? can't remember who I was debating with about the difference between strength levels)

Siding with Mr Ares is always a good idea.

[BFG]

Thanks Yoniy0 - that's something I've been trying to remember is whether it was 13 channelers or 13 AS, I think I may now have to side with Mr Ares(? can't remember who I was debating with about the difference between strength levels)

Siding with Mr Ares is always a good idea.

 

Now hoping that debate was with you :) Although I'm now going with bigger power increases between levels than I had previously in my head.

[Sharaman]

A single strong AS with the female Choeden Kal might be able to shield Rand without an angreal.

Or Lanfear with her angreal came close to doing it

Semirhage evidently believed she could shield Rand if she got the drop and she also believed that damane (without angreal) could shield very strong Ashaman like Logain or else she wouldn't have attempted the failed capture that cost Rand his hand.

[Suttree]

A single strong AS with the female Choeden Kal might be able to shield Rand without an angreal.

 

Errmmm, with the CK they could do it very easily, no "might" about it.

[Luckers]

A single strong AS with the female Choeden Kal might be able to shield Rand without an angreal.

Or Lanfear with her angreal came close to doing it

Semirhage evidently believed she could shield Rand if she got the drop and she also believed that damane (without angreal) could shield very strong Ashaman like Logain or else she wouldn't have attempted the failed capture that cost Rand his hand.

 

A woman using the Choedan Kal could shield Rand without trying. She'd have to be strong enough to survive using the Choedan Kal, but if she was its no question.

 

Lanfear with an angreal came close to shielding Rand with an angreal.

 

Semirhage's plan was likely to stun everyone with a web that induced pain and then leash them whilst they were stunned. That web was likely destroyed along with her Mirror of Mists when Cadsuane used her ter'angreal to do what she did. Her plan had nothing to do with her expectations of the play out in a damane/Asha'man duel.

[Amandera]

How is it that Taim knew Narishma was born with the spark? With women they simply sense it, but male channelers never know if one another can channel until they seize saidin.

[Knivy]

There is that "Resonance" test.

[MrJade]

One more question, when does the Ageless face appear?

 

Response to all the responses to my original question [what was the number of Aes Sedai at their height of power] (my ability to check this site is sporadic at best due to my life at the moment): I estimated, given from ANS, that the total number of novices would be somewhere around 800, and 400 accepted. (In ANS, it is mentioned that there are nearly 200 accepted and 400 novice rooms, and it was rumored that at one point novices and accepted were boarded two to a room). Further, the White Tower was built to hold 3,000 Aes Sedai, which again, judging from current trends (that there are two Aes Sedai out of the Tower for every one inside), it gives us a hard upper number of 9,000 Aes Sedai.

These assumptions are quite tenuous however. We do not know that the 2:1 ratio was standard in earlier times. It could have been larger (it most likely was, as pre-Artur Hawkwing the Aes Sedai acted as advisers and governors and were more broadly accepted), but we do not know if the White Tower was built for more sisters than was needed at the time of construction (again, most likely, as the Aes Sedai most likely did not intend to stagnate or die, and the construction was no easy prospect. They would most likely have no desire to build a second Tower in Tar Valon or elsewhere, as that could risk a power division) and if the Tower was bigger than needed, was it ever full?

A separate estimation method is as follows: There are 800-1000 Aes Sedai in the world pre-Dragon Reborn. There are 40 novices pre-Dragon Reborn. This gives us a 20-25:1 Aes Sedai to Novice ratio. With the rumor of double-bedding of novices this gives us a figure of 16,000-20,000 Aes Sedai. This figure is massive, and seems out of credibility to me. However, this number does have some anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. It has been said that the White Tower will not lower its minimum standard for entry into the Tower. It is also said that Egwene and co's strength is remarkable now, but at a point in the past would have been merely unusual. Further, the Westlands have become more sparsely populated AND there are less natural channelers. This definitely points to a higher number, but not necessarily that high of a number, however there is more evidence of this number. Only 1% of the populace can channel. There are nearly or more than 1,100 novices as of the end of ToM and tGS. The figure was formerly 3%, and so if we extrapolate this, it seems reasonable to see that there could be as many as 3,300 novices. This is before the absolute population of the Westlands is increased. If there is still 75% of the population at that height (which I believe the figure is much closer to 50% or less) we could see 4,400 novices! If only 9 or 10 in every 40 (as the pre-Dragon Reborn numbers are) were to attain the shawl, and a total generation of Novices and Accepted changed every 20 years, and that Aes Sedai live ~300 years, we could see 16,500 Aes Sedai! If the current population is in fact only 50% of the total population right before the Trolloc Wars, or before Artur Hawkwing, we could see 24,750 Aes Sedai! However, while these figures are supportive of the second method of estimation, they are also, in and of itself, a third method of estimation.

TL;DR:

The best that we can estimate is thusly: One method produces 9,000 Aes Sedai at most, the second says 16,000-20,000 Aes Sedai, and the third says 16,500-24,750. Keep in mind that this is the theoretical maximum, and not the absolute number of Aes Sedai, but I have also tried to estimate what their actual numbers would be in these figures.

Anyone care to refute my theories, because to me, those last two numbers seem incredibly logical, but also mind-numbingly high.

Edited November 26, 2012 by MrJade

[Suttree]

One more question, when does the Ageless face appear?

 

Interview: Apr, 2003

Budapest Q&A (Verbatim)

Question

 

Is it true that the Three Oaths is why Aes Sedai [mumble mumble] I thought it might be because, when you try to avoid the Three Oaths, you get a lot of dangerous situation [mumble mumble]...

Robert Jordan

 

No...now you have to be careful with this, because this is a kind of spoiler for people that haven’t read far enough, but the Oath Rod is what was in the Age of Legends called a binder. It was used on criminals. If you committed a violent act, or some sort of criminal act, with a binder, someone who could channel could be constrained from ever doing that again, and the result of having three of the Oaths, is the ageless appearance. One would not produce agelessness, but even one would shorten life, and three of them put a cap on Aes Sedai’s lives, on how long they could live.

 

It begins after you take more than one oath...

 

As for AS numbers as of NS there were 1,200 AS all told.

[MrJade]

It begins after you take more than one oath...

 

Right, but I was wondering a timeframe, as days or even months after taking the oaths you do not yet have the ageless face, so when does it set in? One year? Two?

 

As for AS numbers as of NS there were 1,200 AS all told.

Correct, but as of the Tower split, the Rebels had ~300 Aes Sedai, with the Tower having as many, and the non-aligned having also as many, leading the estimate of 800-1,000 Aes Sedai. But if we plug in the NS numbers, we have even more inflated numbers...

[Veracohr]

I probably varies, but I think I remember an Aes Sedai somewhere mentioned as being 5 years to the shawl, and hadn't achieved the look yet. Might have been with Nynaeve and Elayne and co. in Ebou Dar. So, say 5-10 years?