Ask A Simple Question, Get a Simple Answer (No AMoL Spoilers)

[Amandera]

Doing a reread of aCoS at the minute, but for the life of me I can't remember whether Old Cully turned out to be someone significant later on? I'm assuming it was either him or Shiaine who set the beggars on Nyneave and Elayne and later on on Mat but it's nagging away at me.

That's why we have eWoT.

http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/characters/op/old_cully.html

 

Another question on Callandor...

 

We know that the sword can only be used safely if it's in a circle with two women and one of the women guides the circle. But by safely do they mean just that since the male channeler isn't controlling the circle it doesn't matter if he goes nuts as he's not weaving, or does it actually mean the taint isn't magnified in the man?

 

Additionally, do we know yet if Callandor still needs to be wielded in a circle - as I understand it at the moment the only reason (that we know now - there is the as yet unknown second flaw) for the circle is to stop the magnification of the taint, so if the taint has gone what is the circle needed for?

 

Thanks.

I'm not really convinced a woman melding the flow would have solved the problem because taint affects a woman in a circle too. Maybe Cadsuane was simply wrong. It happened before. Anyway it shouldn't matter now that saidin is clean.

 

Reason for the circle is that Callandor doesn't have a buffer like other angreal. Circle solves that problem because when you link, the leader can't overdraw the Power. It's a subtitute for the buffer that normally exists in other angreal. So it still needs a circle if you want to be safe, yes.

[BFG]

^thanks - completely mind blanked on the buffer.

[Hagazussa]

I'm not really convinced a woman melding the flow would have solved the problem because taint affects a woman in a circle too. Maybe Cadsuane was simply wrong. It happened before. Anyway it shouldn't matter now that saidin is clean.

 

I have been wondering about that, what happens if a woman go around and links with a man all the time, let us say we have a pair of wilder siblings who do it by instinct, will she then go insane as well as him eventually?

[Amandera]

I believe so. They obviously feel the taint when they link, ie Merise's or Corele's comments on whether the taint is gone or not. And Domination Band is essentially an involuntary circle, in which women holding the bracelet are subjected to the taint.

[Finnssss22]

I'm not really convinced a woman melding the flow would have solved the problem because taint affects a woman in a circle too. Maybe Cadsuane was simply wrong. It happened before. Anyway it shouldn't matter now that saidin is clean.

 

I have been wondering about that, what happens if a woman go around and links with a man all the time, let us say we have a pair of wilder siblings who do it by instinct, will she then go insane as well as him eventually?

 

Not quite sure where the idea of men and women linking, prior to the cleansing, would lead to the women also going mad.

I might be wrong but I don't recall ever hearing of the like other than from modern AS's who think or believe this but don't actually have a clue if it's actually true or not.

Women in the AoL stopped linking with men because they were going insane not because they thought they would also go insane.

 

Think about this...if it were actually true, then Nynaeve would have been exposed to it in massive quantities when her and Rand linked to cleanse saidin and there has been absolutely no indication at all of this happening.

 

Also not sure where the idea of the women using the Domination Band were subjected to the taint either.

The danger of the Band for the women was that the man would eventually excert some control back through them onto the women.

 

Again, I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Finnssss

[Durinax]

I'm not really convinced a woman melding the flow would have solved the problem because taint affects a woman in a circle too. Maybe Cadsuane was simply wrong. It happened before. Anyway it shouldn't matter now that saidin is clean.

 

I have been wondering about that, what happens if a woman go around and links with a man all the time, let us say we have a pair of wilder siblings who do it by instinct, will she then go insane as well as him eventually?

 

Not quite sure where the idea of men and women linking, prior to the cleansing, would lead to the women also going mad.

I might be wrong but I don't recall ever hearing of the like other than from modern AS's who think or believe this but don't actually have a clue if it's actually true or not.

Women in the AoL stopped linking with men because they were going insane not because they thought they would also go insane.

 

Think about this...if it were actually true, then Nynaeve would have been exposed to it in massive quantities when her and Rand linked to cleanse saidin and there has been absolutely no indication at all of this happening.

 

Also not sure where the idea of the women using the Domination Band were subjected to the taint either.

The danger of the Band for the women was that the man would eventually excert some control back through them onto the women.

 

Again, I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

I think that it depends on which leads the circle, if she does by working with saidin she would gain taint side effects, if it is him she would remain sane.

[Amandera]

I'm not really convinced a woman melding the flow would have solved the problem because taint affects a woman in a circle too. Maybe Cadsuane was simply wrong. It happened before. Anyway it shouldn't matter now that saidin is clean.

 

I have been wondering about that, what happens if a woman go around and links with a man all the time, let us say we have a pair of wilder siblings who do it by instinct, will she then go insane as well as him eventually?

 

Not quite sure where the idea of men and women linking, prior to the cleansing, would lead to the women also going mad.

I might be wrong but I don't recall ever hearing of the like other than from modern AS's who think or believe this but don't actually have a clue if it's actually true or not.

Women in the AoL stopped linking with men because they were going insane not because they thought they would also go insane.

 

Think about this...if it were actually true, then Nynaeve would have been exposed to it in massive quantities when her and Rand linked to cleanse saidin and there has been absolutely no indication at all of this happening.

 

Also not sure where the idea of the women using the Domination Band were subjected to the taint either.

The danger of the Band for the women was that the man would eventually excert some control back through them onto the women.

 

Again, I could be wrong but I don't think I am.

I just read Moghedien's description back in tSR and I think you're right about the Domination Band. Words like seepage, flow and exposure made me think of the taint but she is talking about the control issue.

 

But I still think I'm right about women being affected by the taint in a circle if she is the leader. For one thing, they feel the taint. It's not like the Warder bond where they sense the men's revulsion of the taint. They personally feel it, and saidin. They also have to fight saidin to control it, as men surrender to saidar. Nynaeve had a very brief exposure to it before Rand took control of the circle and they were not drawing the full power of CK until that.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Cem Önal

[Hagazussa]

Think about this...if it were actually true, then Nynaeve would have been exposed to it in massive quantities when her and Rand linked to cleanse saidin and there has been absolutely no indication at all of this happening.

 

Well that Nyn do not seam to be worse for wear from cleansing saidin is not really that much of an indication one way or another. Rand would have gotten a huge amount of it to during that scene and he did not end up being more insane that he already was, at least not by much. We know that how much taint a person need to accumulate to go insane varies from person to person, if I do not remember it wrong they mention one guy at the Black Tower who start seeing spiders everywhere and have to be put down after a few days while Logain had been channeling for six years when he was caught by the Aes Sedai seemingly without any harm done to his sanity or at least nothing noticeable unless his arrogance is due to madness but that seam unlikely. Nyn could have absorbed allot of taint and still be just fine, I am not saying that she did, I am just saying that even if she did that do not mean she would have been affected by it.

[Amandera]

There is no reason to think the taint would flow into a passive member of the circle. Nynaeve was the conduit, Rand was the one handling both saidin and saidar. For a very brief moment before Rand gets the control that the roles were reversed. Taint would have affected Nynaeve during that time even if she could not do anything with the Power. But it was very brief.

[Whizbang]

I believe that the taint would not be transferred.  The only thing that is transferred is the control of the power.  The male is still technically channeling, in my mind, it is just he has relinquished control to the female.  He still receives the full impact of the taint, nothing is passed on through the link but the control and sensations of the power.  Remember, when Nyn and Elayne used the bowl of winds, there was quite a bit of description of the shared sensations.  Elayne said it was similar to the sensations from the bond, but much more powerful.  She could feel every emotion and sensation from every member of the circle.  The female in a male/female link would feel the taint the same as the male, but would not actually be absorbing any taint, it would all be filtered through the mind/body of the male.  Also during this scene, one of the Windfinders was outraged at Linking, fearful that it can be done agaist a persons will, or that control can be taken away from the leader of a circle.  One of the Brown Aes Sedai lectured the group on the fact that everything is voluntary, and had been proven through extensive experimentation.  When questioned why the Aes Sedai would even experiment on that, she elaborated that because after the breaking, Aes Sedai experimented on using it to control men who could channel, stating one of the benefits was that the link works even while sleeping, indicating that if you link with a man, you can prevent him from lashing out with the power.

 

If the Aes Sedai just after the Breaking were willing to attempt to force a link on a mad male, then they must have been certain that the taint would not transfer.

[Knivy]

I dont remember where or by who, but i remember a description in the flaws of the dominion band.  One of them was that it essentially became a fight over control, and the other one had something to do with madness..

[yoniy0]

Acquiring the Taint is a matter of channeling Tainted saidin. A woman channeling it would become insane just as a man, which I think is evident by what Moiraine and Liandrin said about channeling in the Ways. However, and this is key, you don't have to channel saidin just because you're linked with a man, nor would you do so by being the passive participant of a link.

 

Also, if I can take us back, I don't believe anything in the books or interviews hints at an ability to Travel to parallel worlds, or mirror worlds. Traveling to a different planet in the same world isn't akin to that at all.

 

PS

I'm encountering problems with Flash and/or my browsers and/or the boards in general, so I apologize in advance for not quoting anyone, and in case my post came out as one long paragraph.

[Suttree]

PS

I'm encountering problems with Flash and/or my browsers and/or the boards in general, so I apologize in advance for not quoting anyone, and in case my post came out as one long paragraph.

Ton of tech difficulties for everyone lately(assuming due to the attack), need to get seriously creative to even post from my work computer....

[Finnssss22]

The woman leading the circle is not actually channeling saidin though, the man is still channeling it, the woman is just controlling the flows.

[mb]

In a mixed circle, I guess the leading channeler could choose which half is channeled.

Semirhage's use of the male adam seems to be an indicator of that.

 

Most channelers seem to channel just their own half when linking.  I guess that would have been so pre-Cleansing.

[Finnssss22]

In a mixed circle, I guess the leading channeler could choose which half is channeled.

Semirhage's use of the male adam seems to be an indicator of that.

 

Most channelers seem to channel just their own half when linking.  I guess that would have been so pre-Cleansing.

Yes and no. In every description we have seen, the opposite half is used to strengthen and reinforce their own half. The women of the circle only actually channel saidar and the men only actually channel saidin. The leader of the circle controls all though.

 

And look, Nynaeve wasn't the only only one linked that day either or even previous to that day. There were 3 other mixed circles, one of which was using Callandor and not one of the women leading those circles mentions being affected by the taint.

With the way men always describe it, it would have been something the women would not only have mentioned but would not have participated in a circle if they had. Most of those women had linked previously as well.

There is simply no way that any of those women would have continued to link if they felt even the slightest amount of the taint was affecting them.

 

I always think of it like Nuclear power. Standing in the heart of the reactor is obviously going to produce high levels of radiation but the electricity it creates, that we all use, is not carrying that radiation with it.

A simplified way of looking at it for sure but also a valid one IMO.

 

Even in the descriptions by women after the cleansing, they have trouble seeing much difference because it didn't affect them in the first place.

 

Cot-23 is a good chapter to read about it.

 

Edited December 15, 2012 by Finnssss

[Amandera]

Also, if I can take us back, I don't believe anything in the books or interviews hints at an ability to Travel to parallel worlds, or mirror worlds. Traveling to a different planet in the same world isn't akin to that at all.

Parallel and Mirror Worlds are part of the Pattern and Travelling is a matter of altering the Pattern. That is why I said it should be possible in theory. I also said it would not be possible in practicality because it would require more Power than possible. I gave the Travelling to other planets quote to make comparaments. If it takes that much Power to Travel to other planets, then it should take more Power to Travel to Mirror and Parallel Worlds. As for hinting at the possibility, it is possible to open a gateway to TAR. Granted, TAR is not a Parallel or Mirror World, but it is similar. It is another reality.

 

In a mixed circle, I guess the leading channeler could choose which half is channeled.

Semirhage's use of the male adam seems to be an indicator of that.

 

Most channelers seem to channel just their own half when linking.  I guess that would have been so pre-Cleansing.

Yes and no. In every description we have seen, the opposite half is used to strengthen and reinforce their own half. The women of the circle only actually channel saidar and the men only actually channel saidin. The leader of the circle controls all though.

 

And look, Nynaeve wasn't the only only one linked that day either or even previous to that day. There were 3 other mixed circles, one of which was using Callandor and not one of the women leading those circles mentions being affected by the taint.

With the way men always describe it, it would have been something the women would not only have mentioned but would not have participated in a circle if they had. Most of those women had linked previously as well.

There is simply no way that any of those women would have continued to link if they felt even the slightest amount of the taint was affecting them.

 

I always think of it like Nuclear power. Standing in the heart of the reactor is obviously going to produce high levels of radiation but the electricity it creates, that we all use, is not carrying that radiation with it.

A simplified way of looking at it for sure but also a valid one IMO.

 

Even in the descriptions by women after the cleansing, they have trouble seeing much difference because it didn't affect them in the first place.

 

Cot-23 is a good chapter to read about it.

 

I don't think we saw that reinforcing saidin with saidar thing before Brandon. The first time it happens, I believe, is when Grady links with the women to create a massive gateway. RJ never used the circles that way that I remember. It was always flows of two separate halves. Which doesn't really make sense because you can't mix saidin and saidar. I believe that was a correction by BS.

 

She expected to have to plead, but the taller woman hesitated only a moment before nodding and passing control to her. Almost immediately Merise’s mouth softened, though it could never be called soft. Fire and ice and filth welled up in Elza, and she shuddered. Whatever the cost, the Dragon Reborn had to reach the Last Battle. Whatever the cost.

Elza is clearly affected by the taint.

 

CoT, Ch23

Corele practiced linking with Damer, too, but the Yellow was so focused on her futile efforts to reason out how to do with saidar what he did with saidin that she would not have noticed the Dark One’s taint sliding down her throat.

...

“I do not know, Cadsuane. Saidar is a calm ocean that will take you wherever you want so long as you know the currents and let them carry you. Saidin . . . An avalanche of burning stone. Collapsing mountains of ice. Itfeels cleaner than when I first linked with Jahar, but anything could hide in that chaos. Anything.”

So is Merise. And Cadsuane believes the taint affects women. At this point, they already made multiple gender-mixed circles so we can't just say "Cadsuane doesn't know everything".

 

For the nuclear reactor metaphor, you're wrong. Flows made of saidin contain the taint as well as the male half of the True Source.

WH, Ch11

The feel of filth remained, though, the Dark One’s taint oozing into him from the weaves he had tied off around himself.

At this point, Rand already released saidin. There is only the tied-off weave.

 

For the descriptions of women. They know very well saidin is cleaner. They just are not sure all of the taint is gone because saidin is foreign to them.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Cem Önal

[yoniy0]

I think you've got it backwards, Finnssss.

He could see the flow from him into Nynaeve.

So it's going into her, she isn't controlling what Rand does with it. And that's without active channelling, mind you. I can't imagine it would stop, if she actually did something with it.

 

Even though Merise was controlling the flows, the vileness of saidin turned Elza's stomach. It was a midden heap rotting in a sweltering summer. The other Green was a lovely woman in spite of her sternness, but her mouth thinned as if she, too, were struggling not to vomit.

[...]

She expected to have to plead, but the taller woman hesitated only a moment before nodding and passing control to her. Almost immediately Merise's mouth softened

So saidin is vile to Elza, and by the latter part she isn't speaking of its strangeness to females. The description is clear, it's the Taint she's feeling. Now, this is simply because she's part of the Circle, so she isn't channelling it, but what's important here is the distinction she makes. Merise's control of the flows is significant to the extent to which Elza ought to be affected by the Taint. What's more, Merise calms down a bit after passing on control of the Circle. This strongly implies that the one melding the flows is affected by the Taint.

 

Daigian was leading the circle—because of him, he thought—but she was drawing so lightly that he felt barely a whisper of saidin passing through him. She would not want to face that until she had to.

Suggestive, if not definitive.

 

"She's holding saidin!" he shouted, and threw himself at her as he felt Daigian draw deeply on the Power.

The wording is very peculiar unless Daigian was actively channelling. She drew on it, not 'used more' or 'made him draw deeper'.

 

Damer and Jahar both said the same thing, the taint was gone, but how could they be sure some scrap did not remain? Merise had allowed her to link with the boy, and she could not feel anything like what the other Green had described, yet how could they be certain? Saidin was so alien that anything could be hidden in that mad chaos.

Cadsuane didn't find what she was looking for, but Cadsuane has never felt it herself. Merise, who has, did describe something which was no longer there.

[Finnssss22]

I think you've got it backwards, Finnssss.

He could see the flow from him into Nynaeve.

So it's going into her, she isn't controlling what Rand does with it. And that's without active channelling, mind you. I can't imagine it would stop, if she actually did something with it.

 

Even though Merise was controlling the flows, the vileness of saidin turned Elza's stomach. It was a midden heap rotting in a sweltering summer. The other Green was a lovely woman in spite of her sternness, but her mouth thinned as if she, too, were struggling not to vomit.

[...]

She expected to have to plead, but the taller woman hesitated only a moment before nodding and passing control to her. Almost immediately Merise's mouth softened

So saidin is vile to Elza, and by the latter part she isn't speaking of its strangeness to females. The description is clear, it's the Taint she's feeling. Now, this is simply because she's part of the Circle, so she isn't channelling it, but what's important here is the distinction she makes. Merise's control of the flows is significant to the extent to which Elza ought to be affected by the Taint. What's more, Merise calms down a bit after passing on control of the Circle. This strongly implies that the one melding the flows is affected by the Taint.

 

Daigian was leading the circle—because of him, he thought—but she was drawing so lightly that he felt barely a whisper of saidin passing through him. She would not want to face that until she had to.

Suggestive, if not definitive.

 

"She's holding saidin!" he shouted, and threw himself at her as he felt Daigian draw deeply on the Power.

The wording is very peculiar unless Daigian was actively channelling. She drew on it, not 'used more' or 'made him draw deeper'.

 

Damer and Jahar both said the same thing, the taint was gone, but how could they be sure some scrap did not remain? Merise had allowed her to link with the boy, and she could not feel anything like what the other Green had described, yet how could they be certain? Saidin was so alien that anything could be hidden in that mad chaos.

Cadsuane didn't find what she was looking for, but Cadsuane has never felt it herself. Merise, who has, did describe something which was no longer there.

 

 

 

I get all that but what I'm saying is that the men can actually FEEL the taint seeping into their bones when they channel saidin.

No woman ever mentioned that happening.

The men know it's clean now because nothing is seeping into them now. The women never had that happening previously so they really don't see much of a difference.

All they could do before was sense the taint. If it was seeping into them, they would have felt it just like the men did. They didn't and wouldn't have continued to link with the men if they did.

 

Just the fact that the women can't really tell the difference is the proof in itself that the taint wasn't seeping into them previously.

 

 

Oh and not to beat a dead horse on a previous debate or anything but...

 

 

tGS-41

Shield after shield came to sever her from the source, but they were like the hands of children trying to stem the roaring flow of a waterfall. With this much power, she could not be stopped save a full circle, and the Seanchan didn't use circles; the a'dam prevented it.

 

 

This is Egwene in a full circle while using the most powerful sa'angreal the tower has, believing that she could be shielded by a full circle.

Jus sayin ;)

Edited December 16, 2012 by Finnssss

[Hagazussa]

The men know it's clean now because nothing is seeping into them now. The women never had that happening previously so they really don't see much of a difference.

 

To be fair here the way saidin and saidar works is so alien from one another that for them to pinpoint anything concrete in the opposite gender's Power is not easy. Imagine if you where given food so alien you had never tasted anything like it before, it did not follow the regular ideas we have for tastes, it was not bitter, sweet, salt and so on, it was something completely new and then you where asked if there was something wrong with the dish, it would not be easy for you to reply to that. Also what those Aes Sedai who have linked with male channelers said was that yes they felt a difference and from all they could say it felt clean but saidin was so alien they could not say if a trace reminded, that is not saying there is not much difference.

 

All they could do before was sense the taint. If it was seeping into them, they would have felt it just like the men did. They didn't and wouldn't have continued to link with the men if they did.

 

I have to respectfully disagree here, most of the time men and women have been linking there have been a very good reason for it, and by good reason I am meaning fate of the world rests on this kind of good reason, I think that most of the Aes Sedai would have gladly taken that risk even if they got taint into them from it if they had to for the good of the world.

 

This is Egwene in a full circle while using the most powerful sa'angreal the tower has, believing that she could be shielded by a full circle.

Jus sayin ;)

 

Well I am in the camp that sort of do think a full circle can shield just about anyone but allow me to play a bit of Devil's advocate here. There is also that time when Rand hold just a little more Power than he should and then think not even a full circle can shield him. This quote from Egwene and the earlier one from Rand could just be them both being wrong and respectively overestimating and under estimating the danger. Real life research have shown that generally (and off course there is individual differences) women tend to overestimate how dangerous something is and men underestimating it, this can be exactly the same that Egwene over estimates the chances a full circle have to shield her in that situation and and underestimates a full circle's chances to shield him and that the truth might be a little closer to the middle for both of them.

[TristanWebb]

Men don't feel the taint seeping into them most of the time, they just sense the taint and touching it. Sometimes when they are more crazy than not they say they can feel it infesting them.

[Finnssss22]

 

Well I am in the camp that sort of do think a full circle can shield just about anyone but allow me to play a bit of Devil's advocate here. There is also that time when Rand hold just a little more Power than he should and then think not even a full circle can shield him. This quote from Egwene and the earlier one from Rand could just be them both being wrong and respectively overestimating and under estimating the danger. Real life research have shown that generally (and off course there is individual differences) women tend to overestimate how dangerous something is and men underestimating it, this can be exactly the same that Egwene over estimates the chances a full circle have to shield her in that situation and and underestimates a full circle's chances to shield him and that the truth might be a little closer to the middle for both of them.

 

Which is exactly what my point has been the whole time ;)

We simply don't know for sure either way.

[yoniy0]

I'm with BC, out of the many, many instances of men touching saidin, you might find a precious few mentioning the seepage. That the several women who touched it didn't mention it is no proof at all. What Elza does mention--the rotting hip--is quite akin to Rand's descriptions of it.

 

Also, there is no indication that women "don't see much of a difference". Cadsuane suspends belief because she's never felt it herself, but Merise didn't show uncertainty (she didn't show us anything, but this cuts both ways).

 

PS

Regarding Egwene with Vora's sa'angreal, good find. I don't know what to think about this, except that it seems to contradict everything else I know about how these things work. Perhaps I'll remember to ask someone to ask Brandon about it (he's responsible for both this quote and the one I provided about Rand, both from TGS).

[Sharaman]

FWIW don't think the subject of saidin affecting women in mixed circles has simple answers.
Someone create a dedicated thread? 

I had some questions on Ajah / AS internal democracy.

Each ajah votes its leader whose ID remains secret outside the Ajah ?

Each ajah leader appoints two sitters (which may or may not  include herself) in the Hall?

The Hall appoints new amyrlins as and when required.

How much leeway do sitters have to make decisions when matters are raised in the Hall including the raising of a new amyrlin or do they always vote a whip from the ajah leader?

Given that sitters/ leaders are appointed for life and this could be very long, doesn't the secret ID of the ajah leaders eventually seep out into public domain?

I mean AS normally defer on the basis of strength and seniority. It would eventually be noticed that somebody who wasn't necessarily the strongest or oldest member of her ajah got unusual amounts of deference.

I think most of these questions are addressed in the text - would be obliged if somebody offered apposite quotes.

 

[yoniy0]

I had some questions on Ajah / AS internal democracy.

Well, yes, the Ajah elects a Head, and her identity is kept secret. I don't imagine it would be quite as difficult to keep secret as you propose, since that Head will inevitably be someone most would have to defer to anyway. For the rest, they're intelligent enough to avoid the pitfalls.

 

However, I don't believe Sitters are appointed by the Ajah Head. At least, we know that Romanda was First Weaver, and yet:

Romanda had thrown her own support behind Dagdara. a far more suitable candidate, not to mention one she thought she could sway without too much difficulty, yet she herself had been trying for a chair while Magla already held one. That carried weight, and no matter that Romanda had previously held a chair longer than anyone in living memory.

Now, it might be that Romanda was only elected Head of her Ajah at the same time, but this also begs the question of why they wouldn't appoint her then let her do as she pleases, on top of why she couldn't later appoint Dagdara in Salita's stead.

 

With regard to the Sitter's autonomy, I believe it's supposed to be full in whatever relates to votes in the Hall. At least, we know that in the Yellow and Red:

In the Red, when the Highest spoke, everyone obeyed, including Sitters. The sole exception, by Ajah law, was voting in the Hall, though some women who held the title had managed to ensure that any vote near to their hearts went as they wished.

As a Sitter, she could have had the space to herself, but she liked being able to keep a close eye on Magla and Salita. Just because they all sat for the Yellow was no reason to trust too far. Magla supposedly was her ally in the Hall yet went her own way much too often, and Salita seldom did anything else.