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I finally understand why don't like Perrin's post-LOC storylines


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For a while now, I've been wondering what's up with the large amount of love that Mat keeps getting and larger amount of hate directed towards Perrin. I don't have much of a preference towards either, you see. Or so I thought. I realized that I looked forward to Mat's POVs much more than Perrin and Perrin-related POVs. Here's why (let me know what you think):

 

-Cast.

 

The characters Mat meets are usually familiar ones (I'm referring exclusively to LOC and beyond). See, Mat goes off to Salidar (with Avi, another very familiar character (VFC)) where he meets with Nynaeve, Eylane, Egwene, (briefly with Siuan and Leane) a.d Thom and the Tairen thiefcatcher dude. We've been following the supergirls' POV right through TFOH so it was a welcome change to see the storylines merge. From that point in the story, Mat roams around with Nynaeve, Lan, Eylane and Avi, all of whom are VFC. Even after the gholam thing, he's left with Thom, (the seanchan lady Eylane and nyn meet in Tanchico), Domon, and the Tairen dude all of whom are old characters that have already been introduced, so at least sort of familiar.

 

Meanwhile, after LOC, let's see who Perrin hangs with: Berlain, Faile, Aram, a couple of AS and Wise Ones. (You'll be hard-pressed to prove that Berlain and Aram are VFC). After Faile, (who really the only VFC apart from Perrin himself) gets kidnapped, we're left to savour the presence of the new Seanchan, the Prophet, random generals and some Ashaman, AS and Wise Ones. With the exception of Berlain, Aram, one of the generals and maybe the AS, none of these characters are really familiar, nor have then been introduced to us. Even the AS haven't really been close to us as readers since we've had no POVs from them. The end result is that Perrin feels alienated from the events that occur in the subsequent books, while Mat's plot line seems kind of related.

 

There's a big difference.

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I think that makes a lot of sense.  I'm not one of the people who hate Perrin or Perrin's storyline, but I can see why others wouldn't be too fond of reading his parts based on what you said.  It's hard to get emotionally attatched to any of the characters in Perrin's camp.  We have known and loved most of Mat's company since the first few books while (most) everone in Perrin's camp was introduced much, much later.

 

I can't say who I love the most out of the main three Ta'veren.  When I'm reading Rand, Rand is my favorite.  When I'm reading Perrin, Perrin is my favorite.  It's hard to not love Mat the most all the time, but I really appreaciate the characteristics (and the flaws)of Rand and Perrin as well.

 

~Mashiara

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I think the biggest part of it is that most people find Mat more fun to read - Perrin just wants Faile back, while Mat drinks, gambles, flirts, has to put up with mad queens, Tuon, he spanks AS, gets tied up with pink ribbons, etc.

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In a sense, I find the familiarity issue quite interesting, if you look at it in the light of the characters.

 

Perrin has a loosely formed group, not even he is that familiar with all of them. Which is in quite a contrast to his personality, with him being the most earthbound of the TR lads, the one you could most easily see settle down with family and friends, and not go for another adventure for the rest of his life.

 

Mat on the other hand, who used to see drinking, gamgling and women as the meaning of life, gets a group that is much tighter, has more of a family-feeling about it.

 

And we see both characters evolve because of that.

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The problem I have with Perrin is how obsessed he his with his wife.

 

His thought process....

 

Faile, need to eat, Faile, Faile, need to tie my shoe, Faile, need to rescue Rand from the evil Aes Sedai, Faile, Faile, Faile.

 

He doesn't do anything without first thinking what she thinks.  I used to dislike her, not so much now, because of it.

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The problem I have with Perrin is how obsessed he his with his wife.

 

His thought process....

 

Faile, need to eat, Faile, Faile, need to tie my shoe, Faile, need to rescue Rand from the evil Aes Sedai, Faile, Faile, Faile.

 

He doesn't do anything without first thinking what she thinks.  I used to dislike her, not so much now, because of it.

 

Well, you have to realize that Faile is the only family he has left. He's an orphan as he found out that his entire family was murdered in TSR. So it is very understandable when he "obsessed" with his wife's safety. Not only does he love her dearly, she's also the only person he trusts and the last part of his family. That's why it's believable when he worries about if she's okay when Colavere becomes queen and when she was kidnapped by the Shaido. Losing almost everything you hold dear makes you not want to lose anything more.

 

That's not really a good reason not to like Perrin though.

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he was well obbsessed before his family passed away.

 

Refresh my memory. Perrin met Faile in TDR, the book before TSR (where he found out his parents died). So his "obsession" had to have manifested between the 33rd chapter of TDR and chapter 29 of TSR.

 

As I recall, at first Perrin wanted nothing to do with Faile and was wary of her and in TSR he tried to send her away and then became estranged from her, so...Unless, you are referencing the ending of TDR where he goes into the Wolf Dream to rescue Faile, which is not what I'd call an "obsession" more like a heroic act, your previous statement has no basis.

 

Once again, not a good reason to dislike Perrin.

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So it is very understandable when he "obsessed" with his wife's safety.
Understandable does not necessarily equal enjoyable or interesting to read.

 

Yeah. You're right. However, the "debate" is because people say they dislike Perrin because of his "obsession."

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I thought he got less interesting because he went batsh*t crazy when Faile was captured.

 

But frankly, read his chapters in LOC and ACOS and you get the image that this man is in a very damaging codependent relationship with an almost bipolar girl who's barely pubescent, irrationally and insanely jealous, and constantly pushing him to put himself out of Rand's shadow almost as much as Mel was doing to Mat.

 

He, in the mean time, puts up with it because he's suffered incredible trauma, he's clearly not the sharpest or at least quickest tool in the smithy, and because he's willing to be essentially abusive to her, if not physically, then verbally. And she *likes* it.

 

Perhaps IRL this could be worked out with roleplay, or S&M type stuff, but it's grotesque in the novels.

 

And RJ's defence of their behavior was always very weak. My g/f got turned off the series in LOC or ACOS because this. Frankly, I told her that if she were ever like Faile, I'd go for a Berelain in an instant, and she said that if I were like Goldeneyes, she'd go for a Rand or even the DO.

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That's been my reaction, too.

 

The whole Perrin/Faile relationship is unhealthy in the extreme.  Grotesque isn't nearly strong enough to describe it.

 

A relationship like that doesn't need to be in this story.  Having to read about it in order to keep track of the overall plot just leaves me with the feeling that I need to bathe afterwards.

 

Perrin was my favorite character when the series started.  Now he just fills me with disgust.  It's punishing to read his parts of the story.

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I'd have to agree. I loved how he was the "gentle giant" in TEoTW, but now he's like that guy in your highschool class who wouldn't shut up about his girlfriend, then punched you in the face when you said she wasn't your type.  Now instead of saying she's not your type, you kidnap her.  Now instead of punching you, he's cutting down everyone in his way with an ax.

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So it is very understandable when he "obsessed" with his wife's safety.
Understandable does not necessarily equal enjoyable or interesting to read.

 

Yeah. You're right. However, the "debate" is because people say they dislike Perrin because of his "obsession."

 

It's understandable certainly, but I think some would have like to get the story from a different point of view.  Give us Berlain's occasionally, or Aram's.  Be interesting to be in his mind.  Perrin can be a chore because there is rarely any humor, and you can read the POV of someone single minded only for so long.  Light, the man ignored a fellow who had a cough that progressed into vomiting beetles til death.  You would think he'd go "You know, I want to get Faile back and all, but I could spare 60 seconds to ponder what this might mean."

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It's understandable certainly, but I think some would have like to get the story from a different point of view.  Give us Berlain's occasionally, or Aram's.  Be interesting to be in his mind.  Perrin can be a chore because there is rarely any humor, and you can read the POV of someone single minded only for so long.  Light, the man ignored a fellow who had a cough that progressed into vomiting beetles til death.  You would think he'd go "You know, I want to get Faile back and all, but I could spare 60 seconds to ponder what this might mean."

 

It's especially galling in light of the fact that since POD, if not LOC and ACOS, we've been forced to look at the similar example of Rand becoming a half-crazed singleminded fellow who's losing sight of his humanity. And not because he's "becoming a wolf". I get royally pissed off at Perrin's thoughts about how much he's afraid of losing his humanity while we are forced to watch him lose his humanity in a much more meaningful way! I think even his wolf buddies would be pretty shocked at his behavior.

 

Whereas these days with Rand, we (thankfully) only get like 1/2 at best from his POV; frankly, this makes me a little sad, since I originally thought they were pretty damned awesome. Nowadays, without Mat, I don't see how I could stand the series, especially when those other two are dealing with their women.

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So it is very understandable when he "obsessed" with his wife's safety.
Understandable does not necessarily equal enjoyable or interesting to read.
Yeah. You're right. However, the "debate" is because people say they dislike Perrin because of his "obsession."
Precisely. They can understand him but still dislike reading about his obsession, because it gets repetitive.

 

But frankly, read his chapters in LOC and ACOS and you get the image that this man is in a very damaging codependent relationship with an almost bipolar girl who's barely pubescent, irrationally and insanely jealous, and constantly pushing him to put himself out of Rand's shadow.

 

He, in the mean time, puts up with it because he's suffered incredible trauma, he's clearly not the sharpest or at least quickest tool in the smithy, and because he's willing to be essentially abusive to her, if not physically, then verbally. And she *likes* it.

Well, as descriptions of Perrin and Faile's relationship go, this one is pretty wide of the mark. She's jealous, yes, but no more than you'd expect. As for irrational, bear in mind she's human. They all are. She didn't take the time to actually tell him about her culture, and what would be normal. In this series, that's pretty typical. Happens an awful lot in life as well. Once he understood what she wanted, a lot of the jealousy and misunderstanding went away. As for verbally abusive, she wants a husband who will stand up to her, and occasional arguments. Hardly abuse. She's just not willing to be submissive, and doesn't want him to be either.

 

Frankly, I told her that if she were ever like Faile, I'd go for a Berelain in an instant, and she said that if I were like Goldeneyes, she'd go for a Rand or even the DO.
Because it's clearly better to go with someone who doesn't love you to someone who does, or someone isane than someone who isn't. As advice for healthy relationships go, I'm not sure most experts would recommend the nutter who doesn't love you, but why not?

 

It's understandable certainly, but I think some would have like to get the story from a different point of view.
That's a good idea. Show Perrin from the outside, at least occasionally. That way, we don't have such repetition.
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Perrin used to be my favorite too, till he met up with Faile. I understand the Saldean habit of wanting a man be strong enough to let the woman be as strong as she can be, but honestly.... This snivling excuse for a blacksmith is just boring. The only thing she cares about is seeing her name in the history books. Just like any other fool Hunter for the Horn. She'd probably be kicking and screaming if she ever met a guy that really stood up to her nonsense. A guy like Mat, for instance.

 

Mat is just about the perfect type (for me at least). Doesn't take crap from anyone, isn't impressed with titles or rank, knows how to enjoy the simple things in life, is ambitious enough to improve himself, is funny as hell even when he doesn't want to be, motivates people without scaring the living daylights out of them, knows his priorities and doesn't lose sight of what's important even if he does do his damndest to wriggle his butt out of responsibility. He always ends up doing the right thing, even without his luck (such as saving women that wouldn't recognise gratitude if it slapped them in the face) and he's man enough to recognise ability and achievement in others regardless of who they are, what they have or what fool type rank, title or money they have.

 

Perrin is just boring compared to Mat. Hell, Rand is boring compared to Mat.

 

I could be happy with a full series on Mat alone ;D

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Well, as descriptions of Perrin and Faile's relationship go, this one is pretty wide of the mark. She's jealous, yes, but no more than you'd expect. As for irrational, bear in mind she's human. They all are. She didn't take the time to actually tell him about her culture, and what would be normal. In this series, that's pretty typical. Happens an awful lot in life as well. Once he understood what she wanted, a lot of the jealousy and misunderstanding went away. As for verbally abusive, she wants a husband who will stand up to her, and occasional arguments. Hardly abuse. She's just not willing to be submissive, and doesn't want him to be either.

 

Have you been reading the same series as me? In TSR he spanked her; in LOC he found out that the "culture" she comes from, or at least the way her parents do things, applauds Deira's feeling that it was great to find out that she was weaker than Davram because during one of their arguments he physically forced her to be submissive; in ACOS he finally cracked and went berserk on her because of her insanely jealous and petty reaction to him trying to figure out what the hell happened to Berelain, which she *knew* he was doing as the DR's right hand man and friend; and in COT, he went, in my eyes, beyond the pale. The man had Asha'man capable of traveling, he could have returned to Cairhien or Camelyn at any time to get more Aiel, which the series has consistently depicted as ubermenschen at least for scouting and combat, he could have used his wolves to scout, and instead, he tortured prisoners of war at least as cruelly as Asunawa would. With the combination of physical pain and mental anguish he inflicted, he probably went beyond anyone not capable of torturing with the Power, and even then, he's one of the three main GOOD GUYS. Oh, and he's absolutely unconcerned that his wife was seriously considering sleeping with her Brotherless friend.

 

It would take too long to list all the f'ed up things that Faile has done.

 

As I said before, this is an unhealthy relationship.

 

Because it's clearly better to go with someone who doesn't love you to someone who does, or someone isane than someone who isn't. As advice for healthy relationships go, I'm not sure most experts would recommend the nutter who doesn't love you, but why not?

 

I would have thought that my post demonstrated that for me, whatever else it is, the Perrin-Faile relationship is not love.

 

I think codependency is the best that I can think of.

 

But that isn't love.

 

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Have you been reading the same series as me? In TSR he spanked her; in LOC he found out that the "culture" she comes from, or at least the way her parents do things, applauds Deira's feeling that it was great to find out that she was weaker than Davram because during one of their arguments he physically forced her to be submissive; in ACOS he finally cracked and went berserk on her because of her insanely jealous and petty reaction to him trying to figure out what the hell happened to Berelain, which she *knew* he was doing as the DR's right hand man and friend; and in COT, he went, in my eyes, beyond the pale. The man had Asha'man capable of traveling, he could have returned to Cairhien or Camelyn at any time to get more Aiel, which the series has consistently depicted as ubermenschen at least for scouting and combat, he could have used his wolves to scout, and instead, he tortured prisoners of war at least as cruelly as Asunawa would. With the combination of physical pain and mental anguish he inflicted, he probably went beyond anyone not capable of torturing with the Power, and even then, he's one of the three main GOOD GUYS. Oh, and he's absolutely unconcerned that his wife was seriously considering sleeping with her Brotherless friend.

 

Uhh, in all fairness what Perrin did barely scratches the surace when it comes to torture... compared to people like Asunawa, he was being nice. It's hardly fair to compare one instance like that to something a Whitecloak would do and has done for quiet some time. We have not seen him torture anyone else except on this one occasion. He felt so bad about what he did that he decided to give up his ax because he felt disgusted with himself. Asunawa wouldn't have cared he would have thought he was serving a greater good, not felt regret.

 

Women get jealous, men get jealous, it's natural. Maybe Faile goes a little to far sometimes, but there was another reason why she got so mad when he asked about Berelain in Cairhien. It was because while he was gone trying to rescue Rand Berelain was spreading rumors around saying that she and Perrin were meeting secretly outside of the city. Granted he didn't know that but she still felt bad about what was being said about her husband.

 

As far as he's concrened about the Brotherless.. whatever keeps her safe is what he would want her to do. I think it's kind of silly  because you shouldn't cheat no matter the situation, but Perrin at least would have understood. Would have done that? Hell no, but that doesn't mean other people wouldn't and that doesn't mean their spouse wouldn't understand. To me that shows the he's willing to look past her flaws, which he has repeatedly, and see who she really is. That is love, that's one of the major things about it is being able to get past some of their flaws because we all are flawed and you have to learn to get past that.

 

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i enjoy all 3 taveren each in there own way. i have no problem with Perrins POV or story arch. but as said it would have been interesting to see someone elses POV in arch, looking at him from the outside.

 

i agree with Muade and Wavemistresstrammel they have basically said  much of what i feel.

 

and on another note, i have an understanding of great loss and can empathize with Perrin. i would be as single minded as he is if my ex-GF, friends or family was in any danger and god forbid i laid my hands on the individual responsible. to lose so much, you hold on to what you have even more.

 

Faile i believe is good for Perrin. he is still some what an innocent in his attitudes towards leadership and things he must do. she is trying to protect him an aid him as she has been taught her whole life growing up, and what she has seen of her mother and fathers relationship. as the old saying goes opposites atract. ;D

 

and seriously is their relationship any wierder than Mat and Tuon? or even Rand and his harem? is it unhealthier? nah. it's probably the healthiest. ;D at least they express their feelings. ;)

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