I finally understand why don't like Perrin's post-LOC storylines

[Mr. Micawber]

7of9, George Washington McLintock is one of my favorite characters of all time  ;)

 

I don't think you can minimize how pure awesome the Duke is.

 

However, that's not the issue I have. Way, way back at the beginning of this thread, I identified my serious issue with this relationship, which has turned this thread into a compare and contrast on the relative morality of spanking. I do bear some blame for that myself, but I bristled at RoboHillbilly's wording the most, particularly the point about that family being "God-fearing".

 

Anyway, my issue was never *about* the spanking. It was that the spanking is *indicative* of what I see as an unhealthy codependent relationship between Faile and Perrin that's grounded in an element of Sado-Masochism that I find terribly out of place in the series.

 

Moreover, people keep debating about how awful the amputation was, and I tried to explain my view, which was that it was shocking and discomfiting because Perrin was never, until this storyline, written this way.

 

That's what it all comes down to. I believe, strongly, that RJ was atrociously bad at the characterization that went into this relationship, and moreover, that he was absolutely cavalier, if not offended, at the widespread reader reaction to Faile.

 

I hate to bring this up *again* but Perrin is the author avatar here. I don't think RJ appreciated that when he's on record many many many times as stating Perrin is his favorite character, Perrin is the character that most resembles him, etc. his readers might be a little weirded out when that avatar has a dysfunctional relationship with an unstable masochist.

[Seven of Nine]

I hate to bring this up *again* but Perrin is the author avatar here. I don't think RJ appreciated that when he's on record many many many times as stating Perrin is his favorite character, Perrin is the character that most resembles him, etc. his readers might be a little weirded out when that avatar has a dysfunctional relationship with an unstable masochist.

Well, I love Perrin, and I hope the two of them (if they survive) develop a healthier relationship and that I don't always think of her as despicable. It's rather gratifying for me, being new to the WoT boards, to find that my reaction to her isn't just be being weird. (don't say it!)

 

The butchering scene with Perrin actually reminded me a bit of the Jack character on the TV show "24" when he would do something almost no one would approve of because it needed to be done quickly to save many lives. It showed how far our gentle black smith had come. War is hell, and the people who live through it spend much of their lives recovering from the experience. I learned very early in our marriage not to stand close to my Vietnam Vet hubby when I woke him up from a nap.

[Arkelias]

Can't have it both ways.

 

Perrin187, you do understand that the Wheel of Time is a series of books, and not reality right?  I do not believe in hitting a woman, for any reason.  Period.  However, in the real world women don't have the one power.  If they did it might change my opinion.

 

A woman wielding the one power isn't defenseless.  A woman without it is.  Are you familiar with the term sexual dimorphism?  It means that in our species men and woman are physically different.

 

We have a lower center of gravity, higher percentage of muscle mass and are generally larger and stronger.  That's not to say that every woman fits that stereotype, but as a species it generally holds true.

 

If you need facts to back this up look up the Olympic records for sprinting or weight lifting, and see what you find.  Since we are larger and stronger hitting a woman is hardly a fair fight.  Its no different than beating a child.

 

Perrin was being physically and verbally abused by Faile and repeatedly ask her to stop, he said so with a firm neutral tone. She continued endlessly so Perrin spanked, wow what a horrible guy.

 

I really get the opinion, which is backed up by your user name, that attacks versus the fictional character Perrin are viewed as attacks aginst you personally.  That's kind of sad o.o

 

If you'd read the entire thread you'd know what my stance on Perrin and his chapters are.  I don't think he should have spanked Faile.  I think he should have left the bitch by the side of the road, and never looked back.  She does nothing postive for him, and frankly he could do better.  He'd be much better off with Berelain, a woman who is less codependant, violent and prone to jealous rages.

 

Perrin obliterated the Shadio,(who are enemies of Rand) and saved his wife and the queen of ghealden whom sweared allegiance to the dragon. Masema's men got slaughtered and between him and the Seanchan lost 100 guys. Not to mention saved 100,000 people from slavery. Man what a selfish prick.

 

Did you miss the part where he gave 400 shaido wise ones to the Seanchan as damane?  He effectively SOLD THEM INTO SLAVERY.  But that's ok, right?  Because its Perrin and he's a good guy.

 

He could have gone to Rand as soon as his wife was taken.  He'd have had her back sooner without having to cut a deal with Seanchan.  The end would have been the same, but he could have avoided torturing the stone dog and selling women into slavery to an empire that's trying to conquer his continent.

 

If he had to choose between Faile's death and the death of a million people I think he'd choose faile.  That makes him both selfish and a horrible leader.  Part of being a good leader is making personal sacrifices in order to do what's right for everyone who follows you. 

 

Yes, that makes him selfish.  Even if it didn't my issue isn't the actions that he took, its how boring those scenes were to read.  I don't like Faile, and I don't like Perrin since he changed into his 'only Faile matters' mode.  He used to be one of my favorite characters.

 

 

Arkelias are you like Rand and not fight Lanefear one of the most powerful and evil forsakens who is threatening the lives of your friends, on the soul fact she is a women. Or you could fight evil, no matter that that evil maybe a women. In a way this is sexism a women can get away with certian things a man can't, just because she doesn't have a penis. 

 

First, don't tell me what I'm like.  You dont' know me and I don't appreciate the personal attacks.  Knock it off or I promise you won't like my reaction.

 

Still, I will address your argument.  I live on a planet called Earth.  In my world there is no one power.  My morality and the decisions I make are based on the world I live in.

 

If I lived in the fictional world where there was a one power things would change.  If a woman like Lanfear possessed the power to hurt and kill my friends and family you'd better believe she'd suck a burst of balefire to the chest.

 

My view is most definitely sexist, because I do view men and women as different and treat them differently.  However, once upon a time it was called by a different term.  Its probably a word you've heard of.  Its called chivalry.  Look it up if you aren't sure what it means.

 

He tortured somebody, in a fit of rage and yeah he is pretty crazy and dangerous, but you said you always wanted compelling stories and character.

 

That scene was good.  It was compelling and I liked it.  The other 15+ chapters were not compelling, which is the issue I had with this part of the series.  It was boring and repetitive to watch Perrin abandon his duties to chase after a woman I hoped would die horribly.  Faile is a like most of RJ's female characters, domineering, mean spirited, jealous and armed with an over exaggerated sense of her own importance.

 

I love the talk him and Eylas have and him deciding to give up the axe. This just shows what he is capable of when he loses control. I don't think he is a bad person like people have said. He saved the TR, voluntarily went to Rand his friend, and saved him at Dumai Wells, he stayed loyal and went to Ghealden on behalf of his friend, ignored berelains advances, and defeated the shadio and is well on his way to dealing with Masema. He also got Ghealden for Rand.   

 

I loved the talk between them too, and I love Elyas as a character.  I don't think he's a bad person, but I do think he'll make bad decisions to save Faile.  I do think he'd become a darkfriend to save her.

 

He is very loyal and he did save Rand in Dumai wells.  Those were some great scenes from back when I actually liked Perrin.  They happened before he began his three book 'nothing but Faile matters' phase.

 

I don't like the scenes with him resisting Berelain, because I feel there were too many of them and that they were unrealistic.  I don't think Berelain would have kept persuing him after Faile was taken, and I hated that everyone believed Perrin slept with her.  And still does to my knowledge.

 

Seven of Nine asked:

But with his medallion, Mat had neutralized her strength, so how is it really any different?

 

In the wheel of time I view women with the power as being on another level.  They can abuse men in the same way that men could rape or abuse women in the real world.  Some do when they forcibly take warders.  That makes them different from an ordinary women in my mind.

 

She didnt lack the power to defend herself, he simply took it away from her for a short time.  It's still not something I'd do, but I find it easier to rationalize because she had the power.  Hell, I even though the scene was funny.

 

I realize that's a poor excuse and doesn't make a lot of sense.  It's clearly a rationalization, but its where my mind went when I read the book =p

 

I want to close by saying this.  I'd never hit a woman, but that doesn't mean I get all indignant when I read about it occuring in a novel.  Hell, many characters in my own work may hit or abuse women.  Its just a personal decision, not one I'd expect anyone else to adopt.

 

That said if I ever catch a guy beating a woman I will intervene.

[talij]

Perrin has always been one of my favorite characters of the series, though I will admit I liked his storylines in the first half of the books better than the last. I actually thing the original post in this thread made a lot of sense as to why. I also blame the fact that it took 4 books to cover the 51 days of Faile's captivity. Would have been better I think if all of Perrin's story from WH was moved to CoT, as I think it would have been easier to digest and probably wouldn't have felt so dragged out. Plus, the story does take Perrin down a darker path, which is hard for those of us who related to Perrin in the earlier books to take.

 

The spanking of Faile I feel was justified. I do think it's wrong to do harm to anyone who can't properly defend themself, be them man, woman, child, or animal, but I don't equate spanking her to beating her or abuse. She was physically and verbally assulting him, and he tried to stop her with words to no avail. She was behaving like a child, so he treated her like one (heck, she was only 14-15 at this point so she kinda was a child). A few slaps to the rear didn't do any real damage, and we haven't seen him lay and hand on her since (even though she has slapped him multiple times). If he would have smacked her back, then I'd likely feel differently. In a physical contest, Faile stood no chance against him. Perrin knew this, and I think he showed proper restraint. Granted, I know some see spanking as a bad thing too, so I can see how this could upset some people.

 

On the Perrin as a good/bad person discussion, I think generally he's a good guy, though he does do some things that definately aren't good. What makes him generally good in my opinion is that he knows they aren't good and hates himself for doing them. He knows what's right and what's wrong and genuinely tries to do good. Sometimes he fails, and in that he's human. One of the themes I like about the WoT books is heroes are human and stories always fail to mention that. Rand likely will be seen as a great hero, but he's done a lot of things many see as questionable at best. Mat will be seen as a great general and warrior, though usually he's just trying to keep him and his men alive. Perrin's the same. Those he saved at Malden will see him as a hero, just as the Two Rivers folks already do, but he's no saint either. He tries to be, and that's enough for me.

 

Is he overly obsessive about Faile? Definately. Could his story do without the constant reminders that he'd do anything for her? Yeah, I think we got that the first 100 or so times he said/thought that. Do I think their relationship is unhealthy? No. I admit I haven't taken any psychology classes, but when I look at their relationship I see that they both care deeply for each other and are both devoted to the other's well being. Nothing wrong with that in my book. Love is different for everyone though.

 

Is he being a good leader by using his people to rescue Faile? Yes and no. It's not his mission from Rand, but it's something a large part of his group strongly wants to do. The Two Rivers folk want Faile back to, the Ghealdan army want their Queen, and the Aiel Wise Ones want to see the Shaido stopped as they are betraying what it is to be Aiel almost as much as Cha Faile misrepresents it. Maesma uses it as an excuse not to go to Rand. The Mayeners, Asha'men and Aes Sedai are the are really the only ones who have no motivation to go after the Shaido, though Berelain doesn't stop them, the Aes Sedai are tied to the Wise Ones and likely see the good in stopping the Shaido from killing and taking more innocents, and the Asha'men just sorta go with the flow. I don't think he would have stopped anyone who wanted to stop following him (so long as they didn't jeoprodize his plans by alerting the Shaido).

 

However, I'd agree that none of that likely played that big of a part in Perrin's decision to go after them (his thoughts make that pretty clear). And while the result of his rescue of Faile does a great deal of good for many others, he didn't destroy the Shaido for the good it did for others. He did it for Faile. All else was second to him. That's not good motivation for a leader to have. Granted, we see few truely good leaders in WoT (Mat does good even though he tries to avoid it and Egwene is getting there, but not there yet). I'd argue that he is a much better leader than Rand though, because Perrin at least cares for the people he leads. Rand just uses them.

 

Do I think Perrin would turn to the Shadow to save Faile? Probably if he saw no other way. Some people will do whatever it takes to protect those they care about, and Perrin's already shown he's willing to do that. Someone saying/thinking they'd sell their soul to protect their loved ones is common in many stories, so Perrin is by no means unique or do I think less of him for it. He was willing to sacrifice his life to the Whitecloaks to protect to Two Rivers folk, even after his family was killed, and I think he'd sacrifice his soul for those he cared for as well. That's always been the type of person Perrin is. Do I think we will see him become a fallen hero? No. I think RJ started him down that path just so he could redeem himself.

 

Perrin's story has always been about a good man trying to win out over the monster inside of him and use that nature for good. In the early books, the monster was represented by his inner wolf. Now that he has more control over that, the monster is his anger towards the world for what's happened to the only family he has left. And that struggle is definately taking the told on him, driving him to do things he never would have considered before. This doesn't make those things (like chopping of the hand) right, and a big part of him knows that. I think now that he's given up the axe and has Faile back, he can begin the path back to his own redemption.

[Perrin 187]

Arkelias you may be new to this board so you may not understand, I'am not a fanatic for Perrin he is one of my favorite characters, but at this point in the series I like Lan more and at other parts of the series I've like Thom or moriane more then Perrin. Yeah I named my username after Perrin he is one of favorites but I'am by no means a fanatic since there I are many characters I like just as much if not more than Perrin. I've stated that many times in my board history. Believe me I don't take any of the critiscm to him as personal attack.

 

I'm just sticken up for a character I like.

You criticize Perrin for spanking a women whom was acting like an idiot but when another character does the same thing you make an excuse because you like that character more. Its hypocrisy.

 

I know the WOT is fiction but you seemed to be Judging Perrin's action by your personal beliefs and yet ignore them when it comes to another character. Sorry if you felt I had attacked you personally. But I think your argument was hypocritical.

 

 

The 400 wise ones  sanction the abuse and rape of hundreds of thousands of prisons and some even took part in it. They are by no means nice people and are very sadistic like. Perrin could have killed them for their crimes or give them to the Seanchan. This is just RJ way of karma in my opinion.

 

The rest of your post is opinion, I don't think Perrin would sacerfice millions or become a darkfriend, but you do so I'll leave it at that.

[Arkelias]

Welcome to the boards talij.  Excellent post by the way.

 

Perrin, I'm glad to hear I was reading too much into things.  Thank you for taking the time to explain!

 

You criticize Perrin for spanking a women whom was acting like an idiot but when another character does the same thing you make an excuse because you like that character more. Its hypocrisy.

 

Remember, much of my rancor towards perrin comes from no longer liking the character and feeling that his sections of the books are subpar in the last several. 

 

However, I'm not sure how that makes me a hypocrite.  Had Mat taken Tuon over his knee I'd probably have had more of an issue with it, because she can't use the power.  Still, either way I see the spanking as a minor issue.

 

I'm not sure how it became so important, but it derailed the rest of the points I was trying to make.  I really could care less about the spanking.  I've stated my opinion of it, but that particular scene didn't damage my appreciation of the text.  I thought it was more ridiculous than offensive.

 

I only got invovled in that part of the discussion, because Mr. Ares had attacked the stance of people who believe hitting women is wrong.

 

I know the WOT is fiction but you seemed to be Judging Perrin's action by your personal beliefs and yet ignore them when it comes to another character. Sorry if you felt I had attacked you personally. But I think your argument was hypocritical.

 

Just as you judge his actions from your personal beliefs.  You see all of his actions as being ok, because you like him as a character.  The truth is he did some very vicious and selfish things.

 

Think of the opportunity cost.  What if instead of go after Faile he'd brought Masema to Rand through a gateway (by force if necessary).  Then instead of killing some of his followers Masema himself would have been dealt with.  Aram would still be alive too.

 

He could have still wiped out the Shadio, just faster and with less wise ones beinge enslaved.

 

 

The 400 wise ones  sanction the abuse and rape of hundreds of thousands of prisons and some even took part in it.  They are by no means nice people and are very sadistic like.

 

Whoah, whoah, whoah let's stop right here.  The wise ones did NOT sanction rape at any point.  Nor did they participate in it.  Also, can you really say that every one of those wise ones was guilty and deserving of punishment?  That seems like a huge generalization.

 

What if you were a wise ones apprentice when the Shaido crossed the Dragonwall, and were promoted to full wise one afterwards?  You had no say in what your people did.  Even if you did have some say that makes it ok to put a collar around your neck and enslave you?  Wow, that's some pretty brutal logic.

 

I also think its ironic that you would give me grief for letting my own perceptions and values dictate my opinions about spanking, but then disregard the shaido culture and people as wrong and say they basically need to be wiped out and enslaved.  That's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black don't you think?  It's also more than a little hypocritical.

 

The rest of your post is opinion, I don't think Perrin would sacerfice millions or become a darkfriend, but you do so I'll leave it at that.

 

True this is opinion so we can't really debate this. 

 

I do want you to know that I respect your opinion and your posts Perrin.  Like I said thanks for taking the time to explain to me about your last post.  I do appreciate that.

[Perrin 187]

He could have still wiped out the Shadio, just faster and with less wise ones beinge enslaved.

 

How? He could hardly get enough forkroot to knock them all out the first time, he couldn't keep them incapacitated for days. Not enough channelers, you also have to remeber Rand is constantly shifting place to place Perrin has no Idea were he is. Plus Rand went overboard in their staged argument. So I can see why going to Rand wouldn't be a good idea for Perrin. He could kill the wise ones or give them to the Seancheans.

 

Wise ones like Thervea,(I think thats how u spell it) took part in the rape, the Wise ones knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it. They tortured the wetlanders who disobeyed even though they didn't follow ji'toh. Them going into slavery was one way Perrin could get rid of them and was the main reason the Seanchan helped.

 

I wouldn't want to destroy the Shadio and say murder their children and knock them off the face of the planet but if I'm say a Ghealden soldier and they are burning my country down and taking noncombants as prisoners and harshly treating them I would wage war on the Shadio and destroy them if they didn't surrender or leave the country.

[Arkelias]

How could he have gotten the forkroot?  By sending Asha'man to every city on the continent to buy out whatever supplies they could find.  Or, by having the ogier sing to it to increase its size and potency.  They should have been able to gather the amount they'd needed.

 

you also have to remeber Rand is constantly shifting place to place Perrin has no Idea were he is.

 

Perrin has the visions and can see Rand wherever he is whenever he wants.  This would have allowed him to find Rand.  My real point is that he didn't even try.  Even if he'd failed he still should have attempted to find Rand.

 

Plus Rand went overboard in their staged argument.

 

People on these boards trot this out constantly.  I just re-read the entire series and I don't see any horrible argument between them.  The argument was staged, it just got a bit more violent than Rand intended.  They are still childhood friends.

 

Even if the argument is real, you're telling me that Perrin wouldn't have at least tried to get Rand to see reason and help him find Faile?  It just doesn't wash to me that he wouldn't have gone to Rand for help.

 

Wise ones like Thervea,(I think thats how u spell it) took part in the rape, the Wise ones knew what was going on and did nothing to stop it.

 

Therava is how its spelled if I remember right, but either way I know who you mean.  In what scene did she ever condone or take part in rape?  I don't remember seeing that.  What I do remember was her constantly getting on Sevana's case for breaking ji'e'toh, and for changing the ways of the Shaido.

 

They tortured the wetlanders who disobeyed even though they didn't follow ji'toh.

 

Yes, they certainly did.  This was them breaking from their traditions, and was certainly messed up.  However, they aren't a democracy.  This was a decision made by their clan chief (Sevanna).  Do you think all the lower ranking people who had no say in these changes should suffer for their leader's mistakes?

 

That's like saying you should be guilty for all the damage Bush did to the U.S during his eight year stint. 

 

 

Them going into slavery was one way Perrin could get rid of him and was the main reason the Seanchan helped.

 

It was the most expedient way, not the only way.  As I mentioned he could have gone to Rand for help, and avoided enslaving anybody.  As far as Perrin knows the Seanchan are Rand's enemy, and they are conquering their way across his continent.  What happens when they get to the white tower?

 

If they win they'll enslave all the girls from the two rivers, Egwene, Nyneave and every other woman who can channel.  What he did was make a deal with the devil.  You can try to sugar coat it, but Perrin made a deal with some very shady people.  Even he admits that.  This deal would have been avoided by asking Rand for help.

 

Who's easier to approach?  Your sworn enemies who leash women who can channel, or your childhood friend you may have had a tiff with?

 

I wouldn't want to destroy the Shadio and say murder their children and knock them off the face of the planet but if I'm say a Ghealden soldier and they are burning my country down and taking noncombants as prisoners and harshly treating them I would wage war on the Shadio and destroy them if they didn't surrender or leave the country.

 

Your logic can also be applied to the invading Seanchan, who the Ghealden have no love for either.  However, I do agree with this logic.  Soldiers defending their lands and their freedom are one thing.  Collaring women as slaves is something else entirely.

[Seven of Nine]

What he did was make a deal with the devil. You can try to sugar coat it, but Perrin made a deal with some very shady people.  Even he admits that.  This deal would have been avoided by asking Rand for help.

And Mat just married their Empress.

 

I didn't see Perrin's deal with the Seanchan as a deal with the Devil--the Seanchan aren't DFs after all. I saw it as building a future relationship that could come into play to Rand's advantage once the Seanchan issue is settled and Tuon is brought in line (that's going to take some doing!).

[Robo-Hillbilly]

 

Look, I have to call BS on this. I've been in a long term relationship - we're engaged in every meaningful way, it's just not the right time to get married - for over three years, my parents have been married way longer than you, buddy.

 

Ok Mr. Micawber, and your point? Are you saying you do not seen any familiarity with your own relationship and that of Perrin and Faile? You would not be willing do anything in your power to get your better-half back? Maybe you are just saying it is boring stuff to you, I can live with that. To each his own.

 

BTW My parents have been married a very long time as well. Are we trying to measure things here, cause I want no part in it. You might win any way :)

 

I don't give a Rattus norvegicus' posterior what you do in your so-called "God-fearing" hillybilly land, but where I'm from, in NY, you do what that guy did, and you're running a serious risk of getting the living daylights beaten out of you by her largest male relative. Moreover, considering the ethnic makeup of the city's police force, you're looking at jail time, since if she's Italian or Irish, there's a non-zero chance her family is very good friends in one way or another with one of New York's Finest.

 

So you are saying noone in NY has any backbone when it concerns a woman acting a fool? You dont know the whole situation, but I was there and everyone including her big uncles and brother agreed with his decision to spank her. If he would have puched her in the face or something like that...  well, he would have probably recieved a gut load of buck shot. Down south we don't let our women behave like stark raving lunatics in front of the entire family without some sort of response. I would hope NY wouldn't either, but I have never been there so who knows.

 

Moreover, where on Earth do you get off attaching "God-fearing" to what you described? My priest, not to mention my family's dear friend, one of the retired bishops here, and my entire church would say that raising a hand to your wife, absent, obviously, some kind of *real threat*, is the absolute lowest you can go. Every cop I knew growing up - meaning fellow parishioners - said that the things that disturbed were in order, child molestation, rape, and wife beating.

 

I can attach God-fearing to that because most of the people in the room were good God-fearing people, members of the local church, there every Sunday. A parent applying disipline to a child is not a sinning, but a parent allowing a child to run wild is closer to it. His wife was acting like his two year old daughter, so he treated her like his child. You act as though he put on his lead filled leather gloves and worked her over like a mobster. If that is what you took from the situation you were mistaken. It was a shot to her pride and caused embarrasment, not bruises, sheesh.

 

And the fellow in your story is going to be in for a major surprise when he finds out that the Big Guy probably agrees with me.

 

God had much tougher punishment for his children who acted the fool than a few swats on the hinney if I recall correctly.

 

 

If you'd read the entire thread you'd know what my stance on Perrin and his chapters are.  I don't think he should have spanked Faile.  I think he should have left the bitch by the side of the road, and never looked back.  She does nothing postive for him, and frankly he could do better.  He'd be much better off with Berelain, a woman who is less codependant, violent and prone to jealous rages

 

Berelain is a hussy that chases Perrin to infuriate Faile. If Perrin actually started to act as tough he cared for her she'd toss him to the wind.

 

He loves Faile and in the story I don't think he is much concerned about what he could gain by loving her. But she does a lot of posative things for him just in a wierd way.

[Mr Ares]

(3) His lines with "he would make a pact with the Dark One to rescue Faile."  I mean really? you want me to root for this guy?

Again, actions louder than words. What does he do?

He made a deal with a group he considered to be on par with the Dark One. Luckily, the Seanchan turn out to be nice people.

So he makes a deal with some nice people?

 

I thought the Rand was scared that he had thrown Perrin too hard by accident.

Rand threw Perrin too hard because Perrin chose a topic for their argument that hit a little too close to home. Rand wasn't just feigning anger, he was also actually angry with Perrin.

 

It'd go done a little easier with the less pragmatic among us if he did it for a higher cause than saving his wife.

Faile was his #1 priority, but not his only one - he wanted to free the others, as well, remember. Freeing a lot of captives from the Shaido isn't reason enough to get behind him?

A scenario where hundreds of lives could be saved through torturing the prisoner for information seems a more acceptable alternative, for example.

But that is exactly the scenario.

 

I'd not hesitate much to beat the living hell out of someone like Galina (or Egwene, but that's not the point). I hope that doesn't make me look misogynistic but your statement is a little too sweeping for my comfort.

If anything, I'd say the sweeping dismissal of a woman's ability to defend herself implied by the never hit a woman postion smacks more of misogyny than your own. After all, you don't advocate beating all women, do you?

 

True, but he didn't have much choice.

It's not just that he waited until he had a plan before charging in, it was that the plan he came up with minimsed risk t his own and maximised it to Masema, a rather dubious ally. Thus he ends up killing multiple birds with one stone, while keeping the people he cares about out of the firing line as far as possible.

 

It is strange that no one tries too hard to persuade him that getting Faile back is not, in fact, the MOST important thing in the world.

Bearing in mind he's likely to be a bit on edge, and that no-one really wants to see the prisoners remain in captivity, it's not a surprise that those who don't agree that Faile is most important aren't exactly shouting that possibility from the rooftops. Just keep quiet is the safest option.

 

Believe it or not I was aware that Perrin and Faile are neither modern nor American.

You surprise me.

My point is that most readers are American and thus will judge the text from our current societal prejudices.

Given RJ's status as an international bestseller, and indeed the different societal prejudices to be found across the length and breadth of America, people will understandably have a lot of ways of looking at it. I think most people are open minded enough to at least admit that other viewpoints exist, that their own isn't the be all and end all, so even if they disagree with something they can see where the other guy is coming from.

 

He can't complete a sentence without thinking about her.

I challenge you to find one chapter with Perrin in books 7-11 where he doesn't mention 'only Faile mattering'.

Moving the goalposts. And given that Faile is only a captive from the end of book 8, there might be a few in ACoS and PoD. Of course, even if I did cite one you'd ask for a book without them.

 

I'm assuming you've taken Psych 1A right?

How is that at all relevant?

codependence

Not at all relevant. They aren't. And by the way, that wasn't attacking your credibility. Your persecution complex is getting tedious.

 

You know this makes you sound like a teenager pretending to be a gangster right?

Well, someone pretending to be a gangster was what I was going for, but teenager? You, sir, have gone too far! My honour is insulted, I challenge you to fisticuffs!

 

He can't swallow his pride and go to Rand

I think you mean "risk his life", perhaps, if Rand is still sore over that argument. Even if he did go to Rand, so what? How would that help? He still needs information, Rand can't give him that, he still needs a way to deal with the Wise Ones, Rand can't help there. So what good would it do? All Rand could do is even the odds, not turn the balance in Perrin's favour. The Seanchan did that.

 

Based on Perrin's internal monologue

Often, taking their views on themselves at face value is a mistake.

 

Who commands an army of channelers, holds the most powerful Sa'Angreal in the world, has an army of Aiel, grew up in your village and will do anything to save a woman in trouble?

None of which will necessarily help.

 

Not once did Perrin say that he didn't go to Rand to prevent Faile being caught in something like Dumai's Wells

That he wanted to avoid something like that should be obvious from the fact he took steps to avoid something like that. If Rand shows up, they have two lots of channelers. When Perrin went to the Seanchan, he made it so there was only one set, his own.

 

Even the Shaido don't hurt Gai'Shain

Collateral damage. He needs them safe and out of the way, not put under heavy bombardment.

 

Do you really think Perrin would consider his pride too great price to get his wife back?

No, I just don't think he has all that much to offer. Only the Seanchan had what he needed.

 

No, they all seemed pretty shocked when he lopped off the man's hand

No-one is arguing with that. But there is more than one thing that could be shocking them. Such as Perrin being the one to do it, when he was visibly uncomfortable with "doing what had to be done".

 

Not even a questioner would do that.

The only reason questioners wouldn't do it is because they like their work too much to have it over and done with so quickly. Notbecause it is so much more evil than the work they are used to.

 

You see hot coles on a chest as being the same as cutting off a man's hands and feet and leaving him to beg?

I see hours, days, possibly weeks of torture as being a little bit worse than one quick, clean chop. So Perrin's way was actually better.

 

Where do you draw the line?

If you're using torture, you've already crossed it.

 

Can you see any of the Aiel leaders, Agelmar, or Bryne doing what Perrin did?

No, they'd have someone to do it for them. That makes it so much better.

 

no-one thinks to go to Rand to intervene.

They don't know where he is. They can't go to him even if thy wanted to, and they have no reason to want to as there isn't much he could do to help.

 

Perrin tosses aside duty to chase his wife.

And his duty to Faile, Morgase, Alliandre, all the other prisoners?

 

It would have been an interesting twist to the story, and certainly not one most readers would have expected.

We tend not to expect character derailment from a good writer.

 

In my mind a woman with the power is stronger than a man

But the Power cannot be used against Mat. If it was wrong for Perrin, it was wrong for Mat. Evidently, you don't agree that one should never hit a woman, because you are all right with it in some circumstances.

 

The second reason is that's Mat's storyline was interesting

Which just goes to show that the reason you object is not what Perrin did, that's just an excuse.

 

I see as an unhealthy codependent relationship between Faile and Perrin that's grounded in an element of Sado-Masochism that I find terribly out of place in the series.

How so?

 

Moreover, people keep debating about how awful the amputation was, and I tried to explain my view, which was that it was shocking and discomfiting because Perrin was never, until this storyline, written this way.

It was a reasonable development based on his character arc to that point.

 

I hate to bring this up *again*

Then don't.

Perrin is the author avatar here.

No, he's the protagonist. There is a difference.

I don't think RJ appreciated that when he's on record many many many times as stating Perrin is his favorite character, Perrin is the character that most resembles him, etc.

Quotes. I've never read any quote along those lines.

 

A woman wielding the one power isn't defenseless. A woman without it is.

Non-sense. A woman I know once told me that her first husband hit her, once. After she'd smacked his head off the concrete a few times, he decided not to do it again. Do you really want to tell me she is incapable of defending herself? Misogyny. She is more than capable. Do any women here, any at all, agree that they are utterly helpless, and cannot fend for themselves? That they need a man to save them, because they are so weak and defenceless?

Since we are larger and stronger hitting a woman is hardly a fair fight.

What about a smaller man and a larger woman? According to you, it is never all right. That's not based on science, that's just sexism.

Its no different than beating a child.

Hear that, ladies? Now you're just children.

 

He'd be much better off with Berelain

Who doesn't love him. And he doesn't love her.

 

Did you miss the part where he gave 400 shaido wise ones to the Seanchan as damane? He effectively SOLD THEM INTO SLAVERY. But that's ok, right?

It's not like he had another option. Even if he could give them to Rand, he would just pass them on to the Wise Ones, who would declare them da'tsang. That's really an improvement over slavery, isn't it? Or maybe he should have just butchered them. Perrin doesn't have that sort of bloodlust. He didn't have another option.

 

The end would have been the same

No. The end would have been a fight between channelers, not a fight with only one side having channelers. That's a huge difference. He saved the lives of a lot of peole on his own side doing that.

 

but he could have avoided torturing the stone dog

How? He did it for information, and he still needs information if he goes to Rand. Changes nothing. Except maybe he can't send Galina back with a message for Faile, because Rand just has her stilled.

 

selling women into slavery

Instead of making them wear black and perform useless labour until there is nothing left to them but shame. How could you, Perrin, you monster?

 

If a woman like Lanfear possessed the power to hurt and kill my friends and family you'd better believe she'd suck a burst of balefire to the chest.

Rand is stronger in the Power than her. So the not hitting women should hold true, as the stronger part is still the man.

 

However, once upon a time it was called by a different term. Its probably a word you've heard of. Its called chivalry.

Probably makes you feel better to call it that. I prefer to call a spade a spade.

 

Faile is a like most of RJ's female characters, mean spirited

Mean spirited? She's incredibly selfless.

 

They can abuse men in the same way that men could rape or abuse women in the real world.

Women can (and do) rape and abuse men in the real world as well.

 

That said if I ever catch a guy beating a woman I will intervene.

But not a woman beating a guy? Or a guy beating a guy?

 

The wise ones did NOT sanction rape at any point. Nor did they participate in it.

Galina and Therava. They also didn't stop it - Faile and co needed the protection of Rolan's Brotherless.

 

How could he have gotten the forkroot?

He couldn't, not without alliance with the Seanchan.

 

Or, by having the ogier sing to it to increase its size and potency.

Treesinging is not a common talent amongst Ogier, and Rand doesn't have many Ogier to do it. Unless you expect Loial to do it all?

This would have allowed him to find Rand.

Doesn't follow. "Rand is in a room..of course, I know a place with rooms!"

 

In what scene

Implied. Any scene with Little 'Lina.

[Blackhoof]

I think that Failes spanking was justified and right. Its not as if he punchedand kicked her for no reason, or even hurt her that much at all. Spanking doesn't really hurt, getting slapped and punched by come childish girl does. As it is, a man hitting a woman in any circumstance is viewed with extreme prejudice and scorn, which is why i think it was great that perrin spanked faile, because it showed that men can stand up to women, which most of them cant or wont. Did mat defend himself in the slightest against Tylin? Could he have? Tylin basically rapedhim, and did he stop it? No, because she was a woman. Does Rand attack Lanfear after she tortures Egwene and Avi? no, because he has some stupid sense of chivalry. Do any of the TR men defend themselves against Nynaeve when she thumps them with a stick for not agreeing with her, or thinking about womens circle buisness, or expresses free will, as she is stated to have done? Could they have? In this series there is a disturbing amount of sexism against men, and the men cant do jack about it, because they are women. It is twisted, and sad, and wrong, no matter what the justification.

[Seven of Nine]

In this series there is a disturbing amount of sexism against men, and the men cant do jack about it, because they are women. It is twisted, and sad, and wrong, no matter what the justification.

Well, fair is fair. The sexism you refer to, imo, isn't all that different than just acknowledging the differences between men and women--how we frequently have different takes on things, what things are important to us, how logical we think the other gender is, etc. Frequently when women in RL get together and talk about their men, there's a lot of of understanding eye rolling because of those differences, and men tend to do the same thing. What struck me in this series is that the women are usually more empowered in society than they are in RL (with the backing of law and custom in many of the various societies).

 

What bugs me is how so many of them in musings about each other makes that difference one of incompetence. Men and women ARE different in many things, but those differences can be great strengths, because those differing viewpoints can show weaknesses people with one mindset could miss. The WoT world is changing culturally as the series develops (probably the Two Rivers being the one with the greatest changes). People are on the move like they haven't been in Millennium.

 

Personally, I think a great deal of the sexism we see directed specifically at men is a result of the taint. It left it's mark of guilty association. Women who can channel carry a little of it, but all men (perhaps because there could be that potential in them) have it as well.

[Walker]

It seems to me that those who loathe the Perrin story arc must not be or never have been married. I am apporaching 20 years of marriage and if any one kidnapped or harmed my wife and children I would do everything in my power to see that they became one with a shallow grave, most likely in multiple pieces with no reguard for any of those who stood in my way. Also, all other things in my life would take the back seat until she/they returned safely or were avenged. So I guess I can empathize with Perrin in his fear and zealousness.

 

I have avoided this flamewar, but this crap is insulting (and yes, I am married). 

 

This argument essentially claims that people who hate Perrin's story cannot possibly understand what love is.  But many of us who hate the Perrin story do, and that is exactly why we hate the story. Micawber got it completely right on page 2 when he said the following:

 

read his chapters in LOC and ACOS and you get the image that this man is in a very damaging codependent relationship with an almost bipolar girl

 

For those of us who have seen our friends destroyed in such relationships (and which resulted in physical harm) this is what makes the Perrin story so painful.  There is almost no evidence of a healthy relationship here; it has all the warning signs of a classic codependency.  And that is what makes Perrin's descent into darkness even worse.  For those of us who have seen these types of relationships in real life, we cannot help ourselves from believing that Perrin is sacrificing his soul for a woman who, at best, will eventually either destroy his independence or cast him away because he is not good enough.

 

And that would be the good outcome.  There is also the real possibility of one of them physically hurting one another someday.  Micawber's spanking argument has sort of taken on a life of this own in this thread, but it is evidence of a major, major problem in this relationship: a complete lack of mutual respect for one other.  Indeed, no spoilers, but there continues to be a lack of mutual respect in the opening of TGS even though they have been reunited.    This is exactly what permits these codependencies to end in physical violence.

[Blackhoof]

In this series there is a disturbing amount of sexism against men, and the men cant do jack about it, because they are women. It is twisted, and sad, and wrong, no matter what the justification.

Well, fair is fair. The sexism you refer to, imo, isn't all that different than just acknowledging the differences between men and women--how we frequently have different takes on things, what things are important to us, how logical we think the other gender is, etc. Frequently when women in RL get together and talk about their men, there's a lot of of understanding eye rolling because of those differences, and men tend to do the same thing. What struck me in this series is that the women are usually more empowered in society than they are in RL (with the backing of law and custom in many of the various societies).

 

What bugs me is how so many of them in musings about each other makes that difference one of incompetence. Men and women ARE different in many things, but those differences can be great strengths, because those differing viewpoints can show weaknesses people with one mindset could miss. The WoT world is changing culturally as the series develops (probably the Two Rivers being the one with the greatest changes). People are on the move like they haven't been in Millennium.

 

Personally, I think a great deal of the sexism we see directed specifically at men is a result of the taint. It left it's mark of guilty association. Women who can channel carry a little of it, but all men (perhaps because there could be that potential in them) have it as well.

 

I realise why the men are downtrodden and disdained, but understanding something doesn't make it right. If I shot and killed you, and my justification was that you were annoying me, everyone else understands why I did it, but that doesn't make it right. And the majority of the men aren't sexist towards the women, they mutter or think to themselves about how strange they are, but that is about it, and they never do it when a woman can hear. The women, on the other hand, constantly talk about mens supposed incompetence, their constant mistakes, their supposed inability to button up their shirts without a woman to help, how they "think with the hair on their chests", how unperceptive they are, how stubborn they are... need I go on? Most of the time, the woman herself exhibits some of these qualities; Nynaeve is a classic example.

 

As for the Perrin/Faile thing; I hate how he is so obsessed with her (and i know why he';s obsessed, but i dont care) and i think that she is bad for him, she is deceitful, childish and controlling. She deserved that spanking, and she had no right to feel hurt about it afterwards.

[Azar79]

I think the main problem some people have with Perrin and his actions is that they can't let go of their own world view's.

 

When your reading your not in NY, Europe or where ever your from. You are in Randland. Things your have been taught is not taught there.

 

You need to see the world as the character does.

I may be alone in this but when i read fantasy books i set aside my own mindset and try to understand theirs,leaving all my preconseptions aside. And that works for me.

I know I had handled it diffrently if it had happened to me with my knowledge of the world. But if I was in their place. Raised as they had been and been thinking as they think, would I have acted much diffrently? Hard to tell

 

Sorry for too many spelling and grammar mistakes. English is not my native tongue :)

 

 

 

[Ted M]

Perrin187, you do understand that the Wheel of Time is a series of books, and not reality right?  I do not believe in hitting a woman, for any reason.  Period.  However, in the real world women don't have the one power.  If they did it might change my opinion.

 

A woman wielding the one power isn't defenseless.  A woman without it is.  Are you familiar with the term sexual dimorphism?  It means that in our species men and woman are physically different.

 

We have a lower center of gravity, higher percentage of muscle mass and are generally larger and stronger.  That's not to say that every woman fits that stereotype, but as a species it generally holds true.

 

If you need facts to back this up look up the Olympic records for sprinting or weight lifting, and see what you find.  Since we are larger and stronger hitting a woman is hardly a fair fight.  Its no different than beating a child.

 

Take a look at those sprinting and weight lifting records again.  

 

The average man may be somewhat larger, stronger and faster than the average woman, and the strongest men somewhat stronger than the strongest women, but that's certainly a far cry from all women are weaker than all men and therefore defenseless when confronted by the average man.  To put it bluntly, there are a whole lot of women out there (those female power lifters included) who could kick your butt (and mine) up and down the street.  

 

Sweeping generalities that compare women to children in categorizing them as universally incapable of defending themselves when confronted by a man are not chivalrous.  They're condescending, insulting, misogynist, and quite frankly offensive to most people in the western world in the 21st century.

 

Having said that, is hitting a woman wrong?  Sure, hitting a woman is the wrong thing to do in nearly any situation.  Of course, hitting a man is also the wrong thing to do in nearly any situation.  Hitting a woman being wrong has more to do with the fact that violence is, in general, a poor tool for solving most personal social problems than some notion of having to protect the poor weak and feeble females of the world.

 

Now, to bring this back to the topic of the Perrin/Faile relationship.  Are they the most stable relationship in the world?  Of course not.  They're two people in the early "head over heels", passionate stages of their relationship, in a war-torn, violent world that's falling apart.  While they're still working everything out in terms of how their relationship is going to be, one of them is kidnapped and basically enslaved.  Is Perrin's reaction to that unnatural?  Not so much.  As for the spanking... clearly that's what Faile wants out of the relationship, and as far as I'm concerned, however two consenting adults want to define their interactions with one another, that's up to them.  I've known people who enjoy a spanking every now and then.  If it makes them happy, who am I to judge.  I'd imagine that (assuming the DO doesn't win, the world doesn't end, and both of them survive), that their relationship will end up at a point not terribly different from that of Faile's parents.

[Nightstrike]

Take a look at those sprinting and weight lifting records again.

Most women are less than half the strength of most men. Powerlifting records are a bit less representative. But, still, those records say that (even at the top levels) women are a whole lot weaker than men.

 

The average man may be somewhat larger, stronger and faster than the average woman, and the strongest men somewhat stronger than the strongest women, but that's certainly a far cry from all women are weaker than all men and therefore defenseless when confronted by the average man.  To put it bluntly, there are a whole lot of women out there (those female power lifters included) who could kick your butt (and mine) up and down the street.

Change "somewhat" to "a whole lot", at least when you're talking about strength. Especially upper body strength.

 

 

[Demon_AS]

Yeah, reading about Mat is great in contrast with Rand and Perrin. The latter two are always so focused on doing what's right and being responsible, but not Mat - he just wants to gamble and fondle with equal delight. It's always fun seeing responsibility trying to settle itself on Mat's shoulders :D.

Well, Mat's fondling days better be over because his wife would make him sing soprano if she caught being a philanderer. :D

 

Faile's little captivity I think will have humbled her and make her less suspicious about Berelain, who seems to have come to respect Perrin and may now leave him alone in spite of the Ogier oath she took in Tear. Perrin's learned a lot and even managed to get some Seanchan alliances (albeit temporary) that will certainly play a role later. Faile is bringing her own group with her, forged from their common adversity.

 

I'm just glad the whole Faile in captivity story is done. If it had lasted into another book I would have screamed.

Ha, I suspect the balance between Tuon and Mat doesn't lie as heavily on Tuon's side as she thinks it does. Granted, Mat's a bit off-balance at the moment, and like most new husbands, will probably spend a lot of time doing whatever his wife wants. But that usually lasts a couple of months, and eventually the power struggle will begin. I say begin - I mean continue (he's been trying to be the "dominant" one in their relationship for quite some time, and we all know how much he wants to be the one in control). Out of all the three lads, though, I reckon Mat's relationship will be the most interesting to see a conclusion to.

 

I completely agree about Faile's capitivity arc. That went on for too long, and it was only one book. I think I dislike it because I don't really like Faile all that much... she's far too unreasonable as a person (and almost as prickly as Nynaeve, whom I dislike for similar reasons).

[Mr Ares]

it has all the warning signs of a classic codependency.

Such as? Them being in love?

 

Micawber got it completely right on page 2 when he said the following:

read his chapters in LOC and ACOS and you get the image that this man is in a very damaging codependent relationship with an almost bipolar girl

How so? Their relationship is not shown to be damaging, nor co-dependent, nor is Faile "almost" bi-polar. In short, it's completely wrong.

[Ted M]

Take a look at those sprinting and weight lifting records again.

Most women are less than half the strength of most men. Powerlifting records are a bit less representative. But, still, those records say that (even at the top levels) women are a whole lot weaker than men.

 

The average man may be somewhat larger, stronger and faster than the average woman, and the strongest men somewhat stronger than the strongest women, but that's certainly a far cry from all women are weaker than all men and therefore defenseless when confronted by the average man.  To put it bluntly, there are a whole lot of women out there (those female power lifters included) who could kick your butt (and mine) up and down the street.

Change "somewhat" to "a whole lot", at least when you're talking about strength. Especially upper body strength.

 

Even accepting that at face value, that particular nitpick doesn't change the major point.  There are, have been, and will continue to be a not insignificant portion of women who are stronger than  a not insignificant portion of men.  Considering that the post I was responding to asserted that the reason that it was ALWAYS wrong for ANY man to hit ANY woman is that men are stronger than women, the existence of some women who are stronger than some men essentially nullifies his extreme, absolutist argument.  

[Nightstrike]

Even accepting that at face value, that particular nitpick doesn't change the major point.  There are, have been, and will continue to be a not insignificant portion of women who are stronger than  a not insignificant portion of men.  Considering that the post I was responding to asserted that the reason that it was ALWAYS wrong for ANY man to hit ANY woman is that men are stronger than women, the existence of some women who are stronger than some men essentially nullifies his extreme, absolutist argument.  

Change "not insignificant" to "insignificant". I'm sure there are some women who have been training for years, and men who have never lifted anything in their lives. But that doesn't change anything. Most men that undergoes the same training as female powerlifters could be stronger than them, especially considering that men in general would reach heavier weightclasses than most women. And those female powerlifters are an insignificant portion of all women. And, most importantly, those women are not representative to women in general. They are extreme cases.

[Mr Ares]

Nightstrike, your points are not at all relevant. Women aren't always weaker, therefore it cannot be considered wrong to never hit them on the grounds of them beng weaker. And it does not follow that weaker equals incapable of defending oneself.

[Nightstrike]

Nightstrike, your points are not at all relevant.

I had no other point than to respond to the comparison of men's and women's strengths.

 

Women aren't always weaker, therefore it cannot be considered wrong to never hit them on the grounds of them beng weaker.

Uhh... They are weaker... and it's wrong to hit them (on any grounds)...

 

And it does not follow that weaker equals incapable of defending oneself.

No, I agree on that.

[Ted M]

Nightstrike, your points are not at all relevant.

I had no other point than to respond to the comparison of men's and women's strengths.

 

Women aren't always weaker, therefore it cannot be considered wrong to never hit them on the grounds of them beng weaker.

Uhh... They are weaker... and it's wrong to hit them (on any grounds)...

 

And it does not follow that weaker equals incapable of defending oneself.

No, I agree on that.

 

They are, on average, weaker, even significantly weaker.  They are not, however, always weaker, which would be the necessary state to assert that it's always wrong to hit a woman because women are weaker.

 

There are also other issues that come in to play.  Compare the strength of 50 male seventy-five year old couch potatoes to those of 50 twenty-two year old women who keep in good physical condition.  Which group is going to be stronger?

 

If a person goes with the average man being 50% stronger than the average woman (which is about what you posited) then assuming standard bell curves for distribution, somewhere between 15 and 20 percent of women will be stronger than the average man.  Fifty percent of women would be stronger than the weakest 15-20 of men.  Sorry, I just don't see that as insignificant.

 

As for hitting a woman being wrong.  Sure, hitting a woman is going to be wrong 99.99% of the time, but then hitting a man is also going to be wrong 99.99% of the time, and that has more to do with the fact that hitting people is generally wrong than it does with their relative physical strengths.