Jump to content

DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

I finally understand why don't like Perrin's post-LOC storylines


Owners.Inc

Recommended Posts

They are, on average, weaker, even significantly weaker.  They are not, however, always weaker, which would be the necessary state to assert that it's always wrong to hit a woman because women are weaker.

Maybe "not always", but rather "more than 75% of all men are at least twice the strength of more than 75% of all women". Or something like that. That would be a close enough estimation, if I may say so myself.

 

If a person goes with the average man being 50% stronger than the average woman (which is about what you posited) then assuming standard bell curves for distribution, somewhere between 15 and 20 percent of women will be stronger than the average man.  Fifty percent of women would be stronger than the weakest 15-20 of men.  Sorry, I just don't see that as insignificant.

That's not right. Women are weaker than that, compared to men.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 140
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

They are, on average, weaker, even significantly weaker.  They are not, however, always weaker, which would be the necessary state to assert that it's always wrong to hit a woman because women are weaker.

Maybe "not always", but rather "more than 75% of all men are at least twice the strength of more than 75% of all women". Or something like that. That would be a close enough estimation, if I may say so myself.

 

You may not say so yourself.  That's a mightily extreme position, and if I'm going to accept it, I'd like to see some sort of evidence (preferably something scholarly where I can see methodology) other than "I'm pulling percentages and ratios out of my nether regions and you should take it as gospel and the point from which to argue."  I could accept "The average man is 50% or more stronger than the average woman."  That may not be completely unreasonable.  The quote above is, to put it bluntly, BS, and I don't mean Brandon Sanderson.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You may not say so yourself.  That's a mightily extreme position, and if I'm going to accept it, I'd like to see some sort of evidence (preferably something scholarly where I can see methodology) other than "I'm pulling percentages and ratios out of my nether regions and you should take it as gospel and the point from which to argue."  I could accept "The average man is 50% or more stronger than the average woman."  That may not be completely unreasonable.  The quote above is, to put it bluntly, BS, and I don't mean Brandon Sanderson.

No, it's not a mightily extreme position. Why don't you show me some "scholarly" information where I can see "the methodology"?

 

Many years ago I visited the national competition for female powerlifters. They were extremely weak, compared to the men's competition. Even regional competitions, not even national. At sixteen years of age, when I had trained only 3 months, I was stronger than all but one of the female powerlifters. I wasn't even one of the stronger ones that trained at the gym. And the woman in question probably weighed 40 or 50 kilos more than I did. And she was not stronger than me by any wide margin at all. So, yes, there really is a great difference between men and women.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Man this thread has been derailed.  It was me who asserted that women are generally weaker than men.  I followed that by saying that I personally believe it is wrong to hit women as a result.

 

You can't use a mathematical proof or logic to tell me that my personal belief is wrong.  I understand it doesn't make sense to most people, nor does it follow sound logic.  It is, however, still the way I was raised.  My brothers, cousins and friends were all raised the same way.  Right or wrong it is my belief.

 

Can't we just leave it at that and get back to the topic at hand?  That was Perrin and why so many people didn't like him in the later books.

 

Ares, you took the time to disect one of my larger posts.  I have to admit the give and take and I enjoy doing the same to yours.  Unfortunately, I have a deadline on the current novel and can't spend my usual two hours picking apart your post so I'm just going to do the highlights.

 

First, you said my arguments about Perrin going to Rand were BS (I'm paraphrasing).  You said that Rand being the Dragon was irrelevent, and so was him having both Aiel and Asha'man that could have helped.

 

If you really believe that please answer me this.  What did the Seanchan bring to the battle that Rand's forces would not have?  Last I checked, nothing.  The Seanchan had troops and channelers.  Rand had troops and channelers.

 

You could argue that the Seanchan had a forkroot processing facility, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread Rand could have send Asha'man from Tear to Murandy to the borderlands to get forkroot.  He could have gathered what he needed in a couple of days, and Perrin's plan still could have gone off without needing Seanchen help.

 

So, that pretty effectively destroys your argument.  Rand was simply a better choice for Perrin than the Seanchan.  Working with your childhood friend is always better than working with the invaders conquering your lands who also enslave any woman who can channel.

 

Nothing you've said shows otherwise.  You can trumpet irrelevant to your heart's content, but it doesn't invalidate my argument.  Rand had enough strength to get the job done.  Perrin had the means to find him, but chose not to use it.  That's my point.

 

I think its a weak part of the story. It was a bad decision on his part, and from the author's point of view it led to a section of the series that nearly everyone agrees was unecessarily long.  Its made worse when the logical reader keeps asking himself why Perrin didn't just go to Rand.

 

You said:

I think you mean "risk his life", perhaps, if Rand is still sore over that argument.

 

What?  Give me any part of the text that would support Perrin believing Rand would kill him for coming to him with the problem of his wife being kidnapped.  The only part I see is them having a staged argument become a real one, but certainly not one that has ended their friendship or caused a schism between them.

 

You also said:

Collateral damage. He needs them safe and out of the way, not put under heavy bombardment.

 

I snipped this particular section because it sums up your point of view that somehow dealing with the Seanchan would make the final assault on Faile safer.  How?  If Perrin had concocted the same plan, and you'd subbed Rand's Aiel and Asha'man for the Seanchan forces how would Faile have been in more danger?

 

You have this argument that the Seanchan have something Rand doesn't.  You even said:

No, I just don't think he has all that much to offer. Only the Seanchan had what he needed.

 

What did they have that Rand didn't?

 

They don't know where he is. They can't go to him even if they wanted to, and they have no reason to want to as there isn't much he could do to help.

 

Perrin has visions of Rand whenever he thinks of him.  You don't think he could have used this to help track him down?  Or sent one of his Asha'man at least try to find Rand?  My chief issue isn't that Perrin didn't find Rand.  Its that he didn't even think to try.

 

And his duty to Faile, Morgase, Alliandre, all the other prisoners?

 

All the more reason to go to Rand for help.

 

No. The end would have been a fight between channelers, not a fight with only one side having channelers. That's a huge difference. He saved the lives of a lot of peole on his own side doing that.

 

Why, if they used Perrin's plan with the forkroot?  The end would have been exactly the same.  Again, the Seanchan brought nothing Rand couldn't.

 

Instead of making them wear black and perform useless labour until there is nothing left to them but shame. How could you, Perrin, you monster?

 

Dat'sang is a tradition in their culture.  The difference between eternal slavery versus temporarily being declared dat'sang is a wide gulf.  Yes, this does make Perrin a monster.  Try arguing otherwise if you like, but you are wrong.

 

Doesn't follow. "Rand is in a room..of course, I know a place with rooms!"

 

Ah, this was your response to Perrin using his visions.  He can check on Rand anywhere night or day.  It might have taken more than one use of the visions, but eventually he would have seen something to help him find Rand.  And again, the issue isn't that he tried and failed.  Its that he didn't try.

 

 

We tend not to expect character derailment from a good writer.

 

Character derailment is in the eye of the beholder.  To me, RJ DID derail Perrin.  He went from a strong, capable man I liked reading about to a whipped man who'll toss aside duty to save his wife.  Given his actions earlier in the series this was hard for me to swallow.  I see his motivation, but it definitely derailed the character for me and many other readers.

 

But the Power cannot be used against Mat. If it was wrong for Perrin, it was wrong for Mat. Evidently, you don't agree that one should never hit a woman, because you are all right with it in some circumstances.

 

I've said this before, but I'll repeat it.  I believe hitting a woman is wrong.  Characters in a story don't live in my world and I don't judge their actions in the same way as I would someone in real life.  There is a difference between a story and the real world.  That is the distinction I choose to make, and nothing you say is going to change it.  You can think whatever you want about that contradiction.  I don't care.

 

What about a smaller man and a larger woman? According to you, it is never all right. That's not based on science, that's just sexism.

 

Its based off reality.  If you search hard enough you'll find a small man victimized by a larger woman.  In 99.9% of relationships you'll find the opposite.  Generally men are larger.  Argue if you will, but that is the impetus behind how I was raised.  If you don't like that talk to my mother =p

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You may not say so yourself.  That's a mightily extreme position, and if I'm going to accept it, I'd like to see some sort of evidence (preferably something scholarly where I can see methodology) other than "I'm pulling percentages and ratios out of my nether regions and you should take it as gospel and the point from which to argue."  I could accept "The average man is 50% or more stronger than the average woman."  That may not be completely unreasonable.  The quote above is, to put it bluntly, BS, and I don't mean Brandon Sanderson.

No, it's not a mightily extreme position. Why don't you show me some "scholarly" information where I can see "the methodology"?

 

Many years ago I visited the national competition for female powerlifters. They were extremely weak, compared to the men's competition. Even regional competitions, not even national. At sixteen years of age, when I had trained only 3 months, I was stronger than all but one of the female powerlifters. I wasn't even one of the stronger ones that trained at the gym. And the woman in question probably weighed 40 or 50 kilos more than I did. And she was not stronger than me by any wide margin at all. So, yes, there really is a great difference between men and women.

 

Because I'm not the one making numbers up.

 

And I haven't trained at all, haven't set foot in a gym in twenty years, and every one of them could probably out lift me.  So what.  One anecdote proves nothing.

 

Once again, though, you're completely missing the point of what the whole thing was that the post I was responding to was taking the extreme position that "A woman wielding the one power isn't defenseless.  A woman without it is." and Since we are larger and stronger hitting a woman is hardly a fair fight.  Its no different than beating a child." Along with "I do not believe in hitting a woman, for any reason.  Period." 

 

Those present a very specific and extreme argument.  No man should ever hit any woman, because women are weak and incapable of defending themselves, like children.  The fact that there are any women at all who aren't weak and defenseless when confronted by any man, shoots a big hole in that argument, since it's evidence that his rationale isn't always true.  Of course, he's admitted at this point that he recognizes that there's an element of irrationality to his belief, and I can accept that.  The exact relative difference in strength levels between most men and most women is tangential to the point, at best, and the fact that you've made it your main point of contention is somewhat perplexing to me.

 

Personally, I haven't ever hit a woman, and can't imagine that I ever would, except perhaps in a situation where the safety of my family was somehow involved, and I haven't hit another male since I was 13.  I can't imagine a situation other than self defense where I would do that either.  My own position is just that hitting people is wrong in the vast majority of cases, regardless of the relative strength of the hitter and hit.  The conditions that would make it acceptable to hit someone (self defense, defense of another, etc.) again are (to me) independent of strength.  If I was to walk up to the world's strongest man and hit him for no reason, it probably wouldn't hurt him any, but it would still be wrong.

 

Moving back to the original topic of the thread though, I'll admit freely that I didn't much care for the Perrin hunting for Faile or Faile as prisoner sections of the later books.  I think the original post did hit on a large part of why.  Once it's over and you can see the big picture of where it put him (allied with Seanchan, Shaido destroyed, etc.) you can see what the point of the whole thing was.  Unfortunately, while it was going on, it mostly just felt like a whole lot of space that was completely disconnected from everyone else and everything else that you'd come to care about.  Even after having gotten to the end of it, I'm still not certain what the point was behind chronicling Faile's developing Stockholm Syndrome while she was with the Shaido.

 

As for not getting Rand's help... I see that as evidence that he's not as single minded as he says (or even thinks).  He'll do anything, but despite that, he's not really going to screw up Rand's preparation for the last battle... that, and with how hard Rand's gotten he's really not so sure that Rand would help.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And I haven't trained at all, haven't set foot in a gym in twenty years, and every one of them could probably out lift me.  So what.  One anecdote proves nothing.

I've had more than one anecdote's worth of experiences. But I thought that was a good one.

 

The fact that there are any women at all who aren't weak and defenseless when confronted by any man, shoots a big hole in that argument, since it's evidence that his rationale isn't always true.

Yeah, and women being good fighters would certainly compensate for any possible weakness of arm-muscles.

 

The exact relative difference in strength levels between most men and most women is tangential to the point, at best, and the fact that you've made it your main point of contention is somewhat perplexing to me.

The exact relative difference in strength (between genders) is huge. That's us males trying to compensate for being weaker in other ways.  ;)

 

Personally, I haven't ever hit a woman, and can't imagine that I ever would, except perhaps in a situation where the safety of my family was somehow involved, and I haven't hit another male since I was 13.

No, I've not been any fighter either. We're peaceful, you and me. :D

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Speaking as a woman who is not at all weak or defenseless, I have to say I found nothing wrong with Perrin spanking Faile.  She was acting like a child and deserved to be treated as such.  There is a major difference between a spanking (which doesn't hurt the body, merely pride) and beating the living daylights out of someone.

 

As to Faile wanting Perrin to stand up to her, I can relate to that.  She wanted to be treated as an equal, not have Perrin walking on tiptoes around her.  She was trying to find the boundaries, what she could and could not get away with.  If my man just caved in to whatever I demanded and would not debate with me about our differences in opinion, I would have zero respect for him.

 

To the people arguing about the relative strengths of men and women, I have to say I am stronger than most men I know.  However, regardless of strength, there is more than one way for a woman to defend herself.  A woman has the ability to make life hell in ways you could never dream of in such a way that it can not be traced back to her.  The idea that a woman has the ability of a child to defend herself is HIGHLY offensive to me, and no doubt to all the other ladies who come across this thread.

 

With regard to the idea that Perrin should run with his tail between his legs back to Rand, as Mr Ares said seeing flashes of Rand when he thinks of him in no way gives Perrin the ability to pinpoint his location.  Yes, he could have sat on his arse for days on end, thinking about Rand and getting flashes of Min and Rand going at it like rabbits, or various undistinguishing rooms. 

 

But there was also the problem of the Prophet, who flat out refused to travel via gateway and had no intention of going to Rand in any case.  Perrin relected on a few occasions that he'd love nothing more than to shove Maesema though a gateway, but there was the issue of his army of murderers and madmen who would have done their best to wipe Perrins' forces off the face of Randland.  Should Perrin have let the Prophet go, pillaging the countryside and increasing the size of his army?

 

Perrin did what he had to do to save the only family member he has left in the world. If he lost her, I believe he would have turned to the Dark so he could get her back.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, Perrin did his best in that situation, but she (like most women in this series, unfortunately) expected her husband to read her mind.

 

I believe, that in most situations, it is wrong to hit a woman, but if a woman attacked me, with the intent of causing me harm, i would defend myself to the best of my abilities, (ok, im a wimpy nerd, but still.  :) ) Perrin caused no serious, or even minor harm to Faile by spanking her, and he was so ashamed that he has never raised a hand to her since, even though she has.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2002 European Powerlifting Championships

(bench press results, but they are ordered according to total results)

 

Men's heaviest weightclass:

125+kg

1 Vitaliy Papazov 275.0

2 Andrey Malanichev 260.0  

3 Viktor Naleykin 245.0  

4 Sdenek Sedmik 260.0  

5 Johnny Wahlqvist 250.0  

6 Dietmar Zint 245.0  

7 Jari Martikainen 207.5  

8 Nils Staerkjer 262.5  

9 Florent Veldeman 260.0  

- Raimo Makelä 235.0

 

Women's heaviest weightclass

90+ kg

1 Anastasia Pavlova 155.0  

2 Viktoria Olenytsa 137.5

3 Ganna Ganenko 160.5

4 Joanne Schaefer 140.0  

5 Suzanne Last 120.0  

6 Sophi Hellerstedt 100.0  

 

Even the weakest and smallest of all men in their prime could reach more than 110 in bench press, if they did everything right. And those 6 women that are on the list are not representative to average women. They are extreme cases. They are closer to strongest men's strength than average women are to average men's.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

However, regardless of strength, there is more than one way for a woman to defend herself.  A woman has the ability to make life hell in ways you could never dream of in such a way that it can not be traced back to her.

Yeah, and there's probably a lot of women that can kick butts, even if they were ever confronted by a stronger man.

 

The idea that a woman has the ability of a child to defend herself is HIGHLY offensive to me, and no doubt to all the other ladies who come across this thread.

I haven't suggested that, so I hope you're not talking about me. I was just responding to comments on the difference between men and women. I've not suggested that women can't defend themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To be fair, some kids can kick ass. Teen Titans? ;D

 

(er, yeah please don't count above statement in any gender arguments, I meant nothing by it).

 

Its just occurred to me that one of the main reasons a lot of long time readers are disgruntled with Faile/Perrin/life is because the whole thing got stretched too long and unlike me (who just began reading at the start of the year), actually had to wait a few years for something to (hopefully) happen. (And yes, it took me that long to realize it). I'd totally relate if TGS turned to be TBS (total bull****).

 

Something else also just hit me (its one of those days) - Perrin's arguably the least taveren of the lot. Rand is like moving event paradox, and Mat's tavereness is constantly emphasized throughout the series via his luck and the dice rolling. But what about Perrin? There's been no real single event to name Perrin as taveren. You could say the whole TR thing was cause of him but that's not the same. Mat and Perrin have always been SAID or IMPLIED to be of equal taveren strength (no quotes, sorry. But its always like Rand first, and then the other two together in my mind at least). Yet, apart from making Alliandre swear fealty to him, I've seen very little tavereness to him. Maybe its there, maybe its not so in-your-face as Rand's rebel-saving-life thing, or Mat's daughter of the sands thing but surely Perrin's not had a taveren moment like that since...forever. I'd like Perrin's stories a lot more if there were a few more awesome you-can't-touch-me moments. It'd help if RJ had emphasized him tavereness more, like he did with the other two. Maybe a little less Perrin-ish modesty and a little 'I'm taveren. Deal.' attitude form hiim would help too.

 

So, yes, this is a blatant attempt to steer this discussion back to its initial topic - i.e. Perrin and his post-LOC storylines. I really didn't want this thread to descend into the Faile/Perrin bashing bloodbath it eventually always seems to. Hopefully, you guys find something of what I wrote more comment worthy than arguing about weight-lifting.

 

But since I can't help tossing some fuel into the fire...

I don't think its alright for either a man or a woman in a relationship to beat each other. I think the notion of spanking is particularly weak. If you're gonna put someone in their place, you do it through words and spirit and confidence etc. Hitting, even spanking, your partner seems reminiscent of a kid beating up his buddy cos the buddy's 'yo mama' joke was better than his. Its a total admission of defeat. By the way, its ok for siblings to beat the hell out of each other when they're kids btw. (Had to leave myself that loophole).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Perrin's arguably the least taveren of the lot. Rand is like moving event paradox, and Mat's tavereness is constantly emphasized throughout the series via his luck and the dice rolling.

Well Mat's rolling dices and luck is not tavereness, but more something to be compared to perrins being a Wolfbrother.

But what about Perrin? There's been no real single event to name Perrin as taveren. You could say the whole TR thing was cause of him but that's not the same. Mat and Perrin have always been SAID or IMPLIED to be of equal taveren strength (no quotes, sorry. But its always like Rand first, and then the other two together in my mind at least). Yet, apart from making Alliandre swear fealty to him, I've seen very little tavereness to him. Maybe its there, maybe its not so in-your-face as Rand's rebel-saving-life thing, or Mat's daughter of the sands thing but surely Perrin's not had a taveren moment like that since...forever. I'd like Perrin's stories a lot more if there were a few more awesome you-can't-touch-me moments. It'd help if RJ had emphasized him tavereness more, like he did with the other two. Maybe a little less Perrin-ish modesty and a little 'I'm taveren. Deal.' attitude form hiim would help too.

I would say that namely the reason that they after 2 years fighting control some of the most important armies of Randland, and is generally acknowlegded as good leaders. Not only from Rand's POV but from all who interacts with them. This is what the pattern has given them, and their tavereness is why they are able to pull it off.

 

Regardless, back to the maintopic. I believe the "Faile-is-captured" event was probably the main reason why I stopped enjoying Perrin as much as I did in the beginning. That event went on for books without major plot events, while a lot happened in Mat's POVs.

 

I still like Perrin, but I hope he will become a little more Wolfbrother again.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Perrin's arguably the least taveren of the lot. Rand is like moving event paradox, and Mat's tavereness is constantly emphasized throughout the series via his luck and the dice rolling.

 

Well Mat's rolling dices and luck is not tavereness, but more something to be compared to perrins being a Wolfbrother

 

 

I disagree. Mat's luck is largely his tavereness manifesting itself. I've got no solid quote to back me on this, but it seems like everytime he needs to luck to save his life or make the right choice, it does. Ditto for the rolling dice. I wonder if you're thinking about the Aelfinn being responsible for that? Remember, his luck ran great before Tear.

 

Perrin's wolfbrotherness...hmmm...perhaps you could say its a manifestation of tavereness, but its hardly unique. Definitely rare, but not unheard of. As for his leadership abilities, they do exist, so its not too big of stretch to account them to his own abilities rather than to being taveren.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nightstrike, your points are not at all relevant.

I had no other point than to respond to the comparison of men's and women's strengths.
But when people are saying women are usually weaker than men, why butt in to say, well, it's a bit more usual, and a bit weaker?

 

Oh, no!  :'( Please dear Borg, do not assimilate me.

Corrected. And Seven of Nine, go ahead and assimilate the crap out of him with your baseball bat.

 

What did the Seanchan bring to the battle that Rand's forces would not have?
Forkroot. Rand didn't have any. Nor could he easily have acquired it in sufficient quantities (the only people who have enough are the Seanchan. So he would need to take it from them. Which means raids. Which means finding out the locations of manufactories or storehouses. Which takes time, and effort. Simplest to cut out the middleman and go straight to the Source: the Seanchan). The Seanchan were the quickest and easiest way to get the forkroot, and that was the quickest and easiest way to get Faile back. Nothing you've said changes that. I've destroyed your argument.

 

Give me any part of the text that would support Perrin believing Rand would kill him for coming to him with the problem of his wife being kidnapped.
How about the part where he thought Rand was about to kill him, the last time he saw him.

 

I snipped this particular section because it sums up your point of view that somehow dealing with the Seanchan would make the final assault on Faile safer.  How?
Forkroot is used to neutralise the channlers. If this is not done, then you cannot attack channelers within the camp without risking harm to Gai'shain.

 

Perrin has visions of Rand whenever he thinks of him.  You don't think he could have used this to help track him down?
Only if he sees something useful. Most of the time, that's not going to be the case. He doesn't know where Rand is, and he can't find him without thinking about him constantly in the hopes of seeing something useful (it should be noted that he also doesn't know how up to date or real these visions are. Seeing where Rand was last week isn't going to help him a lot).

 

Why, if they used Perrin's plan with the forkroot?
They couldn't use his plan with the forkroot without the Seanchan, because Rand doesn't have any. And it would take more time for him to acquire it than it would for him to just go to them directly. And he wants his wife back ASAP.

 

Dat'sang is a tradition in their culture. The difference between eternal slavery versus temporarily being declared dat'sang is a wide gulf.
For one thing, damane are actually useful. Thus it would be less shaming to the Shaido. The whole point of da'tsang is that it is the worst punishment they have. You might be da'tsang until you die. So Perrin ends up a monster no matter what he does.

 

It might have taken more than one use of the visions, but eventually he would have seen something to help him find Rand.
How long? Rand was on the move after the assassination attempt at the end of PoD, until he went to ground in Far Madding. A city Perrin doesn't recognise. There he stays until the Cleansing (can't do anything then), then back to Lord Algarin's manor (a place he doesn't recognise). Rand wasn't in anywhere Perrin would recognise, so Perrin would only have been wasting time doing that. And he doesn't know that he is actually seeing what Rand is doing.

 

If you search hard enough you'll find a small man victimized by a larger woman.
A big part of why it's so hard to find is that men are less likely to admit to being victims of abuse than women.

 

I disagree.
You're wrong. Mat's luck is a result of the dagger. That's why he always refers to it separately to his ta'veren, why he says it started after SL.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Nightstrike, your points are not at all relevant.

I had no other point than to respond to the comparison of men's and women's strengths.
But when people are saying women are usually weaker than men, why butt in to say, well, it's a bit more usual, and a bit weaker?

I didn't butt in to say that it was "a bit more usual" or "a bit weaker". I said that most men are more than twice the strength of most women.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh, no!  :'( Please dear Borg, do not assimilate me.
Corrected. And Seven of Nine, go ahead and assimilate the crap out of him with your baseball bat.

Ummmm . . . I think I'll stay out of this one. ;) My baseball bat is for games and for payback.

 

What did the Seanchan bring to the battle that Rand's forces would not have?
Forkroot.

Which begs the question. Did Perrin's little trip use up enough Forkroot to make it a nonissue for a while--at least for large numbers?

 

Give me any part of the text that would support Perrin believing Rand would kill him for coming to him with the problem of his wife being kidnapped.
How about the part where he thought Rand was about to kill him, the last time he saw him.

I took that differently than you appear to. I thought it was all part of a plan. Rand's (now typical) bad temper got the better of him, but Perrin is still working to help Rand (now that Perrin's little distraction has been corrected).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ares, your whole argument hinges on Rand not being able to get forkroot.  Think about where and when it was first discovered.  Any village wisdom will probably be able to get some.  It would take Rand time, but Perrin spent 51 days pursuing Faile.  Are you seriously going to tell me that if he went to Rand right away the Dragon couldn't have put together a plan to get forkroot faster than that?  Please.  I'm sure he could have had it much more quickly.

 

Even if he had to raid the Seanchan he could have done so easily.  Its hard to stop lots of Asha'man pouring through gateways at 2am when you aren't expecting any sort of attack and haven't heard of any hostile force within hundreds of miles.

 

You continuously overlook Perrin making a deal with Rand's enemy like its trivial.  Perrin could and should have worked to find Rand.

 

As far as locating Rand RJ was the author.  It would have been up to him whether Perrin found Rand, but the mechanism for doing so is there regardless of how you try to pretend its not.  Perrin could have had one of his Asha'man drop off messages at every court Rand is known to visit, and he could have used the visions to try to find him. 

 

If Rand could obtain forkroot how is Perrin working with the Seanchan better again?  Its not.  Perrin could have and should have gone to Rand and he didn't.  It was a bad mistake that led to a three book story arc with Perrin isolated from the rest of the characters we cared about.  This was only made worse by the fact that it didn't need to happen and the reader knows it.

 

 

For one thing, damane are actually useful. Thus it would be less shaming to the Shaido. The whole point of da'tsang is that it is the worst punishment they have. You might be da'tsang until you die. So Perrin ends up a monster no matter what he does.

 

This shows how little you understand their culture.  Becoming damane means you are a slave with no free will.  Both dat'sang and Gai'shain are cultural concepts for the Aiel.  Both brings a measure of dishonor, but the Aiel do not hold with slavery.

 

Wise ones are sacred and the idea of making them mindless slaves would be horrifying to all Aiel, not just the Shaido.  Even though we haven't seen them for several books the bulk of Rand's army are still Aiel.  How are they going to feel about the Shaido wise ones being made slaves?  Not well I can assure you.

 

How long? Rand was on the move after the assassination attempt at the end of PoD, until he went to ground in Far Madding. A city Perrin doesn't recognise. There he stays until the Cleansing (can't do anything then), then back to Lord Algarin's manor (a place he doesn't recognise). Rand wasn't in anywhere Perrin would recognise, so Perrin would only have been wasting time doing that. And he doesn't know that he is actually seeing what Rand is doing.

 

Remember the part where I said over and over that it didn't matter if Perrin succeeded, the attempt was the important part?  The right thing for Perrin to do was find Rand.  He didn't even try.  If he had who knows what would have happened?

 

One thing you are overlooking is that Perrin is a Ta'veren.  He draws what he needs to him.  That could have made it possible for him to find Rand, even if the visions failed and Rand didn't get any of the messages Perrin could have left from Caemlyn to Tear to Illian to Caihrehien

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ares, your whole argument hinges on Rand not being able to get forkroot.  Think about where and when it was first discovered.  Any village wisdom will probably be able to get some.  It would take Rand time, but Perrin spent 51 days pursuing Faile.  Are you seriously going to tell me that if he went to Rand right away the Dragon couldn't have put together a plan to get forkroot faster than that?  Please.  I'm sure he could have had it much more quickly.

 

The Seanchan were the only ones who had enough forkroot tea to subdue the Wise Ones. Sure forkroot might be common but how long would it take to gather enough to take the Wise Ones?

 

Even if he had to raid the Seanchan he could have done so easily.  Its hard to stop lots of Asha'man pouring through gateways at 2am when you aren't expecting any sort of attack and haven't heard of any hostile force within hundreds of miles.

 

So killing civilians (which is what the people in the manufactory were) is a better alternative for bargaining with them with absolutely no cost of life?

 

You continuously overlook Perrin making a deal with Rand's enemy like its trivial.  Perrin could and should have worked to find Rand.

 

Ever heard of the enemy of my enemy is my friend? Rand is trying to make a truce with them so what is your problem. Both wanted to stop fighting with the Seanchan and fight against a larger enemy. What's the difference? Perrin did not know where Rand was.

 

As far as locating Rand RJ was the author.  It would have been up to him whether Perrin found Rand, but the mechanism for doing so is there regardless of how you try to pretend its not.  Perrin could have had one of his Asha'man drop off messages at every court Rand is known to visit, and he could have used the visions to try to find him. 

 

So you want the author to defy logic to fulfill what you think "makes sense?" How about the three ta'avern flight to the summit of Dragonmount and hold a conference? Jordan follows logical progression. It goes against Rand and Perrin's plan. Perrin was supposed to secure the southwest while avoiding attention from everyone especially the Shadow. If he "dropped messages" at every court, it would soon become widespread.

 

If Rand could obtain forkroot how is Perrin working with the Seanchan better again?  Its not.  Perrin could have and should have gone to Rand and he didn't.  It was a bad mistake that led to a three book story arc with Perrin isolated from the rest of the characters we cared about.  This was only made worse by the fact that it didn't need to happen and the reader knows it.

 

He did not know where Rand was. Rand and his plan meant for them to limit contact with each other and for Perrin to be incognito. How long would it take to gather enough forkroot to stop the Wise Ones. Perrin had wagonloads and it didn't even incapacitate ll of the Wise Ones.

 

Okay. we'll play it your way. Say Perrin wanted to find Rand at the same time as the cleansing...Chances are he'd be a dead man.

 

This shows how little you understand their culture.  Becoming damane means you are a slave with no free will.  Both dat'sang and Gai'shain are cultural concepts for the Aiel.  Both brings a measure of dishonor, but the Aiel do not hold with slavery.

 

Aiel are da'acovale. That is essentially as much slavery as being a damane, so if there have already been Aiel who are da'acovale, I doubt they wouldn't fight against being damane.

 

Wise ones are sacred and the idea of making them mindless slaves would be horrifying to all Aiel, not just the Shaido.  Even though we haven't seen them for several books the bulk of Rand's army are still Aiel.  How are they going to feel about the Shaido wise ones being made slaves?  Not well I can assure you.

 

The Wise Ones with Perrin did not approve of it, can't blame them, but they view the the Shaido as no longer being Aiel (like every other non-Shaido Wise One) and were willing to let them be damane. I'm pretty sure every other Wise One would agree.

 

Remember the part where I said over and over that it didn't matter if Perrin succeeded, the attempt was the important part?  The right thing for Perrin to do was find Rand.  He didn't even try.  If he had who knows what would have happened?

 

What is the point of trying when it would 1). Definitely not work. 2). Tire out the Asha'man when they could be better used to scout. 3). Ruin the plan he and Rand invested so much into. 4). Let the entire world (and the Shadow) know where he was. 5). Potentially end in Perrin's death.

 

One thing you are overlooking is that Perrin is a Ta'veren.  He draws what he needs to him.  That could have made it possible for him to find Rand, even if the visions failed and Rand didn't get any of the messages Perrin could have left from Caemlyn to Tear to Illian to Caihrehien

 

And he did draw what he needed to him. The Seanchan. Ta'avern is not some Deus Ex Machina that gives the person whatever he wants when he wants.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Which begs the question. Did Perrin's little trip use up enough Forkroot to make it a nonissue for a while--at least for large numbers?
I don't think that's their only manufactory, but it certainly hampers their work.

 

I thought it was all part of a plan.
It was, except for Rand actually getting angry, and nearly killing Perrin.

 

I didn't butt in to say that it was "a bit more usual" or "a bit weaker". I said that most men are more than twice the strength of most women.
Which is basically saying that women weaker than men is more usual than he was saying, and a bigger gulf than he was saying.

 

your whole argument hinges on Rand not being able to get forkroot.
Because he can't, except via the Seanchan. And if you're going to the Seanchan anyway...
Any village wisdom will probably be able to get some.
Nynaeve had never heard of it. Knowledge of it is hardly common. AS had never heard of it, until Macura used it. And Perrin doesn't have a name or a description. I want you to look for a plant, don't know what it looks like... Rand would be starting from scratch. And the only people with sufficient quantities are the Seanchan. Like I said, he has to go through them anyway.
It would take Rand time, but Perrin spent 51 days pursuing Faile. Are you seriously going to tell me that if he went to Rand right away the Dragon couldn't have put together a plan to get forkroot faster than that?
No, not right away. He has to find him first. Rand went to ground in Far Madding after laying a few false trails. Perrin can't find him. If he did, then he could begin. Oh, and what did Rand do in CoT? Sent his people to negotiate with the Seanchan. So even if he could stage raids to get it, he wouldn't want to as that would set his plans back. So actually, he finds Rand, and Rand tells him to go to the Seanchan for forkroot.

 

Even if he had to raid the Seanchan he could have done so easily.
Perhaps, though still with some risk to his most valuable soldiers, against an enemy he wishes a truce with, because he needs them on side for TG.

You continuously overlook Perrin making a deal with Rand's enemy like its trivial.
It is. My enemy's enemy is my friend, and Rand did the same thing. In the same damn book. Perrin has no reason to go looking for Rand, and doesn't know where to find him if he did, and they went to the trouble of making people think they had had a falling out, so that gets pissed away in the most public way possible for no reason, when for what Perrin really needs, he still has to go to the Seanchan.

the mechanism for doing so is there
It isn't, it really isn't.
Perrin could have had one of his Asha'man drop off messages at every court Rand is known to visit
Undoing all his good work when Rand isn't even there.
and he could have used the visions to try to find him.
How? You have yet to answer that.

 

If Rand could obtain forkroot how is Perrin working with the Seanchan better again? Its not.
The only way Rand could obtain forkroot is the Seanchan. And Rand was working on his own truce in the same books. So how is it bad again? It isn't.

 

This shows how little you understand their culture.
No, I understand it. The whole point of da'tsang, Despised Ones, is that they are left with nothing but bone deep shame. They cannot do anything useful. They are watered when they ask for it, but spend all their time doing pointless tasks. Daman would actually be less shaming, in that respect.
Becoming damane means you are a slave with no free will.
Becoming da'tsang means the same.
Both brings a measure of dishonor
Da'tsang have no honour. That's the point.

Wise ones are sacred
These Wise Ones violated ji'e'toh. And bear in mind that Rand sent damane back to the Seanchan in the same book. So if Perrin is wrong to hand over slaves, so is Rand. Both had their reasons. Neither had an easy way out.

 

The right thing for Perrin to do was find Rand.
Why? Rand can't help him, he doesn't have what he needs, and he doesn't even know where to start looking.

 

One thing you are overlooking is that Perrin is a Ta'veren.
Irrelevant. Ta'veren gets him what he needs, not what he wants. He needed the Seanchan.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...