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I finally understand why don't like Perrin's post-LOC storylines


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Meanwhile, you laugh about the spanking, but for me, that's physical abuse, full-stop. He is massively stronger than her. I don't think it matters at all what "culture" she comes from. That's like saying I should respect female circumcision, because, actually, that practice really is a major aspect of some real life cultures.

 

Physical abuse... really, like some of her past actions weren't abusive even slightly? So it's ok for a woman to constantly punch a man because she's a woman? I don't think so. She had it coming.

 

 

I agree. She hit him, he asked her to stop, she didn't, so she got a good spanking. She had it coming, regardless of culture, or chivalry, or anything; it was in self defense, thats the way it works in our time, even.

 

 

And another thing. Perrin keeps pissing me off with his whole, "I'm just a blacksmith, im not a lord" thing. honestly, can't he just move on already?

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Have you been reading the same series as me?
No, I'm readin gthe one without your poisonous interpretation of their relationship.
In TSR he spanked her
After she slapped him. He should just ignore that, should he?
in LOC he found out that the "culture" she comes from, or at least the way her parents do things, applauds Deira's feeling that it was great to find out that she was weaker than Davram because during one of their arguments he physically forced her to be submissive
So?
in ACOS he finally cracked and went berserk on her because of her insanely jealous and petty reaction to him trying to figure out what the hell happened to Berelain
When?
The man had Asha'man capable of traveling, he could have returned to Cairhien or Camelyn at any time to get more Aiel, which the series has consistently depicted as ubermenschen at least for scouting and combat,
If Rand was willing to give them to him. He should be avoiding further battles. He was sent to bring back Masema. He comes back saying Masema wants to walk the whole way, and I need an army to deal with the Shaido, how happy will Rand be?
he could have used his wolves to scout,
They aren't his wolves, they don't like humans, and there's only so much he could learn from them anyway.
instead, he tortured prisoners of war at least as cruelly as Asunawa would.
No, he didn't. He cut off one guy's hand. Asunawa is much worse. As for “prisoners of war”, so what? The shaido haven't signed the Geneva Conventions. Perrin doesn't owe them anything. In his position, I' do the same damn thing.
Oh, and he's absolutely unconcerned that his wife was seriously considering sleeping with her Brotherless friend.
He doesn't know.

As I said before, this is an unhealthy relationship.
And I disagreed with you before.

 

I would have thought that my post demonstrated that for me, whatever else it is, the Perrin-Faile relationship is not love.
Yes, it is love. A bit unconventional for oyu, perhaps, but love nonetheless.

 

In addition to committing a war crime
He didn't. He didn't break any laws.

 

This could be forgiven if RJ were writing something like ASOIAF. But he's not.
How so? The series is replete with examples of moral ambiguity, shades of grey.

 

Perrin's not super-arrogant, he's become psychotic instead.
Perrin is in no way psychotic. Not even close. And what we see of him is perfectly in line with his character development over the series.

 

as I said, if RJ wrote his good guys as deeply flawed human beings existing in a nasty world
He does.

 

My issue is that it is morally reprehensible for a much stronger party to use physical force against a weaker one absent any real threat to the former, irrespective of gender.
No, it's morally reprehensible for a weaker party to provoke a stronger, and hide behind the fact they are not a threat to avoid getting punished for it.
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Ares said:

No, I'm readin gthe one without your poisonous interpretation of their relationship.

 

I think 'poisonous interpretation' is a bit much.  When viewed through the lens of a modern day American relationship Perrin and Faile do appear co-dependent and a bit unhealthy.  Perrin subsumed his entire personality in Faile as soon as they got together.  He can't complete a sentence without thinking about her.

 

Things are quite different in Randland, but any Psych 1A course is going to tell you this is a bad relationship.  Perrin is willing to go to the shadow to get her back, without considering any better alternatives.  That's a bit scary in my view.

 

After she slapped him. He should just ignore that, should he?

 

If a woman slaps me I'll yell at her.  I may even grab her hands and pin her if she continues.  But I was taught never to raise a hand to a woman.  Even if I would spanking one is demeaning.  You are treating them like a child at that point. If he had to hit her, why not slap her back?

 

Not that I think he should ever have needed to hit her.

 

If Rand was willing to give them to him. He should be avoiding further battles. He was sent to bring back Masema. He comes back saying Masema wants to walk the whole way, and I need an army to deal with the Shaido, how happy will Rand be?

 

See here's what I don't get.  Rand and Perrin are best friends from Edmond's Field.  Even if they weren't Rand will take a wound to avoid harming a woman.  He also considers the Shaido crossing the Dragonwall to be his responsibility.

 

Knowing all that Perrin would rather turn to the shadow to get her back than to take the time to send a message to Rand requesting help?  Even if the answer was no you don't think he should have at least tried?

 

Plus, what makes you think Rand would have refused?  Everything we know about him says he'd have poured through gateways with hundreds of Asha'man and hundreds of thousand Aiel.  Bam, Sevanna is dealt with and Faile is saved.  He could have dealt with Masema at the time as well.

 

They aren't his wolves, they don't like humans, and there's only so much he could learn from them anyway.

 

Here, you have a good point.  Wolves could find the Shaido, but would have no idea if Faile was with them.  In Perrin's mind at that time the captured Stone Dogs were the only way to get the info he needed.

 

No, he didn't. He cut off one guy's hand. Asunawa is much worse. As for “prisoners of war”, so what? The shaido haven't signed the Geneva Conventions. Perrin doesn't owe them anything. In his position, I' do the same damn thing.

 

Judging by the reactions of the people around him Perrin crossed the line.  Everyone was shocked at his brutality, including Perrin himself.  Dropping hot coals on someone can cause a scar.  Making them a cripple and leaving them to beg in a village is something else again, and goes well beyond the bounds of what is considered honorable in war.

 

Yes, it is love. A bit unconventional for oyu, perhaps, but love nonetheless.

 

Many of us have been in unhealthy relationships, but are still in love.  I definitely think Faile and Perrin do love each other.  They are just a little bit twisted is all.

 

Perrin is in no way psychotic. Not even close. And what we see of him is perfectly in line with his character development over the series.

 

I don't think he's psychotic, but he has demonstrated that he has no moral compass.  Perrin would do anything including becoming a darkfriend to save Faile.  That's not right, no matter how much you love a person.

 

No, it's morally reprehensible for a weaker party to provoke a stronger, and hide behind the fact they are not a threat to avoid getting punished for it.

 

And we have words for women who take advantage of a situation like this.  But it is still NOT ok to hit a woman.  Period.

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I'll tell you why I hate it:

 

(1) I continue to be amazed how BAD his leadership is.  Here he is on the eve of tarmon Gai'don and he is just running around for 4 books when the world is at stake trying to rescue his wife.  He is willing to sacrifice his followers and anyone around him just to rescue her.

 

(2) there seems to be no reason for his followers to go along with this.  He keeps on saying things like - "only rescuing Faile matters" and everyone just nods in agreement.  No one sits him down and goes - hey look this is absolutely ridiculous.  Someone needs to smack him. If I am one of the soldiers in his camp (expecially not from the Two Rivers) there is absolutely no reason to think this guy is a good leader or deserves to lead, but they all for some reason everyone keep falling in line and going along,

 

(3) His lines with "he would make a pact with the Dark One to rescue Faile."  I mean really? you want me to root for this guy?

 

The only things you can do to save his character are: (1) have Faile actually be captured by darkfriends and have them use her as bait to try to get him to turn or (2) have a lot more development of the wolf part of his persona.  Otherwise he is boring as hell.

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Having Perrin actually turn to the shadow would have been the PERFECT payoff.  Then everything he went through would have felt worthwhile.  It effectively butchered reader sympathy for Perrin too, so more people would be ok with him turning to the Shadow.  Not that I think it would ever happen mind you!

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Ow! I never realized so many people didn't like Perrin. I think he rocks. He's young and dumb and married a power tripping psycho who--in spite of her having been raised in a supposedly more sophisticated place like a queen's court expects the poor blacksmith to read her mind--but other than that I think their biggest problems relate to their immaturity and youth. She's also the line to a throne for him if he survives TG.

 

I don't mind Perrin's humility. I rather like it. Too many people suddenly shoved into that kind of position start believing their own press and become incredibly arrogant. It's a nice change.

 

The problem I have with Perrin is how obsessed he his with his wife.

 

His thought process....

 

Faile, need to eat, Faile, Faile, need to tie my shoe, Faile, need to rescue Rand from the evil Aes Sedai, Faile, Faile, Faile.

 

He doesn't do anything without first thinking what she thinks.  I used to dislike her, not so much now, because of it.

I'm hoping Perrin will grow past this. One thing he needs to accept is that he has a warrior wife. He needs to let her be a grown up and make her own choices, even if those put her in the thick of battle. And she needs to recognize their cultural differences and not assume he understands what she expects.

 

Elayne's story line makes me want to read tax law while being beaten by 100 angry Aielmen.

Too right! That totally made my day!!

 

Yeah, reading about Mat is great in contrast with Rand and Perrin. The latter two are always so focused on doing what's right and being responsible, but not Mat - he just wants to gamble and fondle with equal delight. It's always fun seeing responsibility trying to settle itself on Mat's shoulders :D.

Well, Mat's fondling days better be over because his wife would make him sing soprano if she caught being a philanderer. :D

 

Faile's little captivity I think will have humbled her and make her less suspicious about Berelain, who seems to have come to respect Perrin and may now leave him alone in spite of the Ogier oath she took in Tear. Perrin's learned a lot and even managed to get some Seanchan alliances (albeit temporary) that will certainly play a role later. Faile is bringing her own group with her, forged from their common adversity.

 

I'm just glad the whole Faile in captivity story is done. If it had lasted into another book I would have screamed.

 

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I think 'poisonous interpretation' is a bit much.
Maybe so, but I liked the sound of it. A nice rhetorical flourish.
When viewed through the lens of a modern day American relationship
But they are neither modern nor American.
Perrin subsumed his entire personality in Faile as soon as they got together. He can't complete a sentence without thinking about her.
That's not even close to being accurate.

 

but any Psych 1A course is going to tell you
That you might want to try a more advanced course before handing out these labels.

 

But I was taught never to raise a hand to a woman.
They tried to teach me that crap, too. People have to learn, if they hit me, I'm prepared to hit back, and harder. You send one of mine to the hospital, I'll send two of oyurs to the morgue.
Even if I would spanking one is demeaning.
In this culture?Spanking seems quite common as a form of punishment, not just for children.

 

Rand and Perrin are best friends from Edmond's Field.
Who have staged a falling out. With Perrin being given a job to do. With that falling out being more real than had been planned.

 

Knowing all that Perrin would rather turn to the shadow
Despite what he may say on the matter, he shows no real sign of being willling to turn to the Shadow.

He could have dealt with Masema at the time as well.
He snet Perrin to do this, rather than doing it himself. Why not just go and see Masema himself anyway? If Perrin goes back and begs Rand for help, he looks incompetent. He should be capable of finding a solution for himself. Also, he's seen what Asha'man can do. He needs to arrange something anyway, to make sure Faile doesn't get caught in the crossfire of a large scale channeling battle. Something worse than Dumai's Wells.

 

Judging by the reactions of the people around him Perrin crossed the line.
Or they just didn't expect it from him. He's not exactly shown himself to be a fan of putting people to the question.
Making them a cripple and leaving them to beg in a village is something else again
Hardly. The principle is the same. If you're willing to torture for information, you can't really draw the line. You've lost the moral high ground.
and goes well beyond the bounds of what is considered honorable in war.
The shaido are not honourable. They do not deserve to be treated as if they are. And I've never had much support for the idea of honour in wartime. In war, the job is to finish it as quickly and efficiently as you can. You want something, so you take the easiest road to get it. That's what Perrin did.

 

I don't think he's psychotic, but he has demonstrated that he has no moral compass.
Quite the reverse. His thoughts afterwards are not those of a man with no mroal compass, but of a man who has gone against his own moral compass.

 

But it is still NOT ok to hit a woman.
Don't start a fight if you're not prepared to finish it. Faile started it, Perrin finished it.

 

Here he is on the eve of tarmon Gai'don and he is just running around for 4 books when the world is at stake trying to rescue his wife. He is willing to sacrifice his followers and anyone around him just to rescue her.
But he's not. He waits until he has a good plan, one that will minimise risk to his own. He takes out the Wise Ones, uses damane, uses longbows (with more range than Aiel bows), and slaughters Masema's rabble rather than his own people. Evidently, he does care about them.

 

(2) there seems to be no reason for his followers to go along with this.
Well, the rank and file aren't really included in planning sessions. And soldiers can't just wander off. The TR people are loyal to him, Berelain is loyal to him, and the Ghealdanin want their queen back as much as he wants his wife. No-one has any reason to leave.
He keeps on saying things like
Actions speak louder than words.

(3) His lines with "he would make a pact with the Dark One to rescue Faile."  I mean really? you want me to root for this guy?
Again, actions louder than words. What does he do?

 

Having Perrin actually turn to the shadow would have been the PERFECT payoff.
No, it wouldn't. It would have butchered his character.

 

married a power tripping psycho
No, he didn't.
who--in spite of her having been raised in a supposedly more sophisticated place like a queen's court expects the poor blacksmith to read her mind
You mean, is young and immature, and doesn't sit down and explain Saldaean culture to him.
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married a power tripping psycho
No, he didn't.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this then.

 

who--in spite of her having been raised in a supposedly more sophisticated place like a queen's court expects the poor blacksmith to read her mind
You mean, is young and immature, and doesn't sit down and explain Saldaean culture to him.

Exactly. I've been willing to cut her some slack for her immaturity, and she has at least begun to learn something, but I expected more from someone of her background. As irritating as Elayne can be at times, she was better educated or at least listened better in her training. Faile being 3rd from the throne should have received better training about cultural differences. Her stint with the Shaido will help I think.

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(3) His lines with "he would make a pact with the Dark One to rescue Faile."  I mean really? you want me to root for this guy?
Again, actions louder than words. What does he do?

 

He made a deal with a group he considered to be on par with the Dark One. Luckily, the Seanchan turn out to be nice people.

 

"For a moment. Perrin could only stare. It was a strange world. He had gone to her thinking he was making a deal with the Dark One, and the Light knew, some of what the Seanchan did was beyond repugnant, but the woman was stalwart and true to her word"

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Ah, Faile bashing. The good times never end huh?

 

 

Perrin subsumed his entire personality in Faile as soon as they got together. He can't complete a sentence without thinking about her.

That's not even close to being accurate.

 

Probably not, but lines like "Nothing is more important than Faile! Nothing!" give that impression. It might have been that bad if Faile was a more popular character. But even if Perrin and Mat hooked up (by which point the DO would clearly have won), I wouldn't like hearing that nothing was more important than Mat. Even though not much is.

 

You send one of mine to the hospital, I'll send two of yours to the morgue.

 

Jim Malone would have been so proud.

 

Who have staged a falling out. With Perrin being given a job to do. With that falling out being more real than had been planned.

 

That last bit is interesting. Are you referring to this:

"Perrin thumbed a trickle,of blood from the corner of his mouth. For one moment there, he had been sure

Rand was going to kill him."

Perrin's POV, ACOS.

 

And then this:

 

"A hundred times he hurled Perrin across the Grand Hall of the Sun, and a hundred times he was

overwhelmed by blazing fear and rage. A hundred times, he killed Perrin in his dreams and woke to his own

screams. Why had the man chosen the Aes Sedai prisoners to use for their argument?"

 

Rand's POV, ACOS.

 

I thought the Rand was scared that he had thrown Perrin too hard by accident. It quite vague though.

 

 

He could have dealt with Masema at the time as well.

 

If half the characters communicated better, we might have had a lot fewer books.

 

The shaido are not honourable. They do not deserve to be treated as if they are. And I've never had much support for the idea of honour in wartime. In war, the job is to finish it as quickly and efficiently as you can. You want something, so you take the easiest road to get it. That's what Perrin did.

 

It'd go done a little easier with the less pragmatic among us if he did it for a higher cause than saving his wife. A scenario where hundreds of lives could be saved through torturing the prisoner for information seems a more acceptable alternative, for example. I guess its kind of a slippery slope from there, though. In Perrin's defense, the damn Aiel started singing at him. And everyone know's the Aiel can't sing no more. They were literally asking for it IIRC.

 

But it is still NOT ok to hit a woman.

 

I'd not hesitate much to beat the living hell out of someone like Galina (or Egwene, but that's not the point). I hope that doesn't make me look misogynistic but your statement is a little too sweeping for my comfort.

 

But he's not. He waits until he has a good plan, one that will minimise risk to his own. He takes out the Wise Ones, uses damane, uses longbows (with more range than Aiel bows), and slaughters Masema's rabble rather than his own people. Evidently, he does care about them.

 

True, but he didn't have much choice. It was either he plans it out, or he charges in and gets everyone killed. I'm not so sure it was a save the TR people so much as it was a 'dead TR people can't help me save Faile' mindset.

 

Well, the rank and file aren't really included in planning sessions. And soldiers can't just wander off. The TR people are loyal to him, Berelain is loyal to him, and the Ghealdanin want their queen back as much as he wants his wife. No-one has any reason to leave.

 

It is strange that no one tries too hard to persuade him that getting Faile back is not, in fact, the MOST important thing in the world. Especially when people start spewing bugs in front of you.

 

You mean, is young and immature, and doesn't sit down and explain Saldaean culture to him.

Why would you wish that on even Perrin? He's already married to Faile, why intensify the torture?

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But they are neither modern nor American.

 

Believe it or not I was aware that Perrin and Faile are neither modern nor American.  My point is that most readers are American and thus will judge the text from our current societal prejudices.  Whenever you have a scene in a book that runs strongly against a societal norm some people are going to take issue with it.

 

I said:

Perrin subsumed his entire personality in Faile as soon as they got together. He can't complete a sentence without thinking about her.

 

And you replied

That's not even close to being accurate.

 

Sure it is.  Take a look at Perrin's internal monologue in the early books.  Then look at it after he meets her.  Then see it after they get married.  I challenge you to find one chapter with Perrin in books 7-11 where he doesn't mention 'only Faile mattering'.  It literally becomes his motivation and all thought from waking until sleeping has to do with this.  We know because even the character points it out to us.

 

That you might want to try a more advanced course before handing out these labels.

 

Remember that thing I mentioned about you attacking people's credibility instead of actually having a discussion?  Yeah, you're doing that again.  I'm assuming you've taken Psych 1A right?  If you have then you know the definition of codependence right?  I'd love to see you argue how Perrin and Faile aren't.  

 

 

They tried to teach me that crap, too. People have to learn, if they hit me, I'm prepared to hit back, and harder. You send one of mine to the hospital, I'll send two of oyurs to the morgue.

 

That's great that you're willing to hit a woman.  I'm not.  I won't hit a woman, because I believe its wrong.  I don't expect you to agree.  However, can you see how the spanking might bother someone who feels hitting women is wrong?  We're not asking you to change your view, but maybe you could try putting yourself in our shoes and understanding ours?

 

Also, this line cracks me up:

You send one of mine to the hospital, I'll send two of oyurs to the morgue

 

You know this makes you sound like a teenager pretending to be a gangster right?  

 

In this culture?Spanking seems quite common as a form of punishment, not just for children.

 

If your real world beliefs conflict with those of a book people are going to find that jarring.  In the WoT spanking is a common form of punishment.  Too common for many readers.  You may disagree, but can you at least understand why people might feel that way?

 

Who have staged a falling out. With Perrin being given a job to do. With that falling out being more real than had been planned.

 

This is the weakest part of your argument.  Perrin says over and over he'll do ANYTHING to get Faile back.  He can't swallow his pride and go to Rand and say, "They took my wife.  Please Rand, I need to get her back.  Will you help me?"

 

Nope.  But he can both say he'll become a darkfriend, and cut a deal with the Seanchan.  It makes no sense, which makes the whole story arc look like an obvious attempt to get Perrin aligned with the Seachan.

 

Rand could and would have helped Perrin get Faile back.  Everything we know about Rand backs this up.  Nothing you've said has explained why Perrin, when he is sooo desperate, wouldn't ask or why Rand would refuse.

 

Would you mind backing up either argument?

 

Despite what he may say on the matter, he shows no real sign of being willling to turn to the Shadow.

 

Based on Perrin's internal monologue the reader now believes that if Faile's life were at stake Perrin would turn to the shadow to save her.  Do you disagree?

 

He snet Perrin to do this, rather than doing it himself. Why not just go and see Masema himself anyway? If Perrin goes back and begs Rand for help, he looks incompetent. He should be capable of finding a solution for himself. Also, he's seen what Asha'man can do. He needs to arrange something anyway, to make sure Faile doesn't get caught in the crossfire of a large scale channeling battle. Something worse than Dumai's Wells.

 

We both agree that Perrin isn't stupid, right?  Perrin would look bad if he went to Rand.  However, of all the people Perrin knows who has the best change of quickly getting Faile back from the Shaido?  Who commands an army of channelers, holds the most powerful Sa'Angreal in the world, has an army of Aiel, grew up in your village and will do anything to save a woman in trouble?

 

Not once did Perrin say that he didn't go to Rand to prevent Faile being caught in something like Dumai's Wells, so I believe that's something you are just making up.  Even the Shaido don't hurt Gai'Shain, and they'd sit out any battle that was fought.  Neither side would harm them, which means Faile would be in very little danger. Certainly not any more than when the Seanchan attacked.

 

This brings us back to Rand being Perrin's best option to get Faile back, and the reader knowing almost beyond a shadow of a doubt that Rand would say yes.  Do you really think Perrin would consider his pride too great price to get his wife back?

 

Or they just didn't expect it from him. He's not exactly shown himself to be a fan of putting people to the question.

 

No, they all seemed pretty shocked when he lopped off the man's hand, and then threatened to repeat the process with his feet and other hand.  Then leave him to beg for the rest of his life.  Not even a questioner would do that.  Even the Aes Sedai are shocked.

 

Hardly. The principle is the same. If you're willing to torture for information, you can't really draw the line. You've lost the moral high ground.

 

You see hot coles on a chest as being the same as cutting off a man's hands and feet and leaving him to beg?  In war there are conventions regarding torture.  Not just in the real world, but obviously in Jordan's too.

 

I want to make sure I understand your comment about losing the moral high ground.  So, if you've decided torture for information then anything is alright?  You could rape a man's wife in front of him to get him to break?  Where do you draw the line?

 

The shaido are not honourable. They do not deserve to be treated as if they are. And I've never had much support for the idea of honour in wartime. In war, the job is to finish it as quickly and efficiently as you can. You want something, so you take the easiest road to get it. That's what Perrin did.

 

Just because someone else has abandoned honor does not mean you need to do so.  You sound pretty ruthless, but people in the WoT are quite different.  The great captains and leaders we've met value their honor though.  Can you see any of the Aiel leaders, Agelmar, or Bryne doing what Perrin did?  I can't.

 

They put great stock in honor.  They aren't cold blooded killers.  They fight because someone has to, and to protect their honor and their families.

 

But he's not. He waits until he has a good plan, one that will minimise risk to his own. He takes out the Wise Ones, uses damane, uses longbows (with more range than Aiel bows), and slaughters Masema's rabble rather than his own people. Evidently, he does care about them.

 

Perrin is chasing Faile.  He was sent by the Dragon Reborn to deal with Masema on the eve of Tarmon Gaidon.  The issue isn't whether or not he had a good plan to get her back.  The issue is him shirking his responsibilities to chase his wife.

 

Well, the rank and file aren't really included in planning sessions. And soldiers can't just wander off. The TR people are loyal to him, Berelain is loyal to him, and the Ghealdanin want their queen back as much as he wants his wife. No-one has any reason to leave.

 

I think his point is that the people underneath him have a channel to the Dragon Reborn, yet know one questions Perrin or thinks to go to Rand to intervene.

 

Again, actions louder than words. What does he do?

 

Perrin tosses aside duty to chase his wife.  Actions speak louder than words.  If he needed to become a darkfriend to save her, he would.

 

 

You know Ares your whole post came across as 'Nuh uh!' without explaining to us any of your reasoning.  I asked you a number of questions in this post.  Would you mind elaborating on them so we have a better idea of why you feel the way you do?  

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Perrin tosses aside duty to chase his wife.  Actions speak louder than words.  If he needed to become a darkfriend to save her, he would.

You know, it had never occurred to me to take some of Perrin's thoughts literally. But after reading all these comments about Perrin, and hitting that part in KoD, it gave me pause. I told my hubby about the theory that Perrin could turn, and he flatly refused to consider it.

 

Is this just a theory, or do you really think RJ could take Perrin there?

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I tend to doubt it.  Since Perrin has just rescued Faile I think its unlikely she'll be captured and used against him again.  However, had things turned out a little differently and Faile been taken by the shadow I think Perrin could have turned to save her.

 

It would have been an interesting twist to the story, and certainly not one most readers would have expected.

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I have to agree with this theory, in fact I have thought the same thing for a while.  Somehow Perrin seems separated from the rest of the story.  I mean in Mat's adventures he has crossed paths with the wonder girls and with Thom, and Nyneave has switched from Elaynes party to Rands.  But Perrin just doesn't cross paths with any other main characters in his current quest.  While I don't dislike Perrin it does make his sections a little harder to read.  I would, however, argue that Gaul is a VFC.  The return of Elyas also added an interesting touch to Perrn's story line.

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I have to agree with this theory, in fact I have thought the same thing for a while.  Somehow Perrin seems separated from the rest of the story.  I mean in Mat's adventures he has crossed paths with the wonder girls and with Thom, and Nyneave has switched from Elaynes party to Rands.  But Perrin just doesn't cross paths with any other main characters in his current quest.  While I don't dislike Perrin it does make his sections a little harder to read.  I would, however, argue that Gaul is a VFC.  The return of Elyas also added an interesting touch to Perrn's story line.

 

Gaul might be familiar but he's a secondary character and a relatively minor one at that. The others in Perrin's party aren't exactly popular/stellar characters.

 

Morgase's storyline might've been interesting for some, but I didn't think so. In any case, her party contributes nothing interesting, amusing or anything to the proceedings.

 

Bain and Chiad, an important part of Gaul's part in the party, went away with Faile. So the whole Gaul wooing Chiad scenario fizzled out, making that part of the story lose its humor.

 

When Faile got kidnapped, we also lost the tension building between her and Berlain rather abruptly. On the flip side, you could argue that it allowed for a better relationship between Perrin and Berlain, which has been long overdue.

 

Masema as I mentioned, does not count in any degree of familiarity - we barely saw him in TFOH and he was particularly unlikeable in TGH and TDR.

 

It wouldn't have hurt if there had been some connection back to Rand's party - perhaps through Davram Bashere? But there wasn't, so for a whole while, Perrin felt removed from the main occurences in Randland and thus marginalized any importance his actions had in that arc.

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It seems to me that those who loathe the Perrin story arc must not be or never have been married. I am apporaching 20 years of marriage and if any one kidnapped or harmed my wife and children I would do everything in my power to see that they became one with a shallow grave, most likely in multiple pieces with no reguard for any of those who stood in my way. Also, all other things in my life would take the back seat until she/they returned safely or were avenged. So I guess I can empathize with Perrin in his fear and zealousness.

 

The first couple of years of my marriage (we got married at 19) was very similar to what we see with Perrin and Faile relationship. Both of us trying to figure out how the other ticked, stretching the boundries. Another thing with the arc I can buy into, been there done that.

 

Faile was raised in a culture that both husband and wife carry the strength of the family and showing back bone and taking care of buisness is proper. She also tries to make Perrin act as though he were raised the same. while Perrin was raised by a bunch of timid wimps that allowed a petite, 26 year old, mouthy, woman push them around as though they were the very sheep they sheared.

 

Perrin turning faile over his knee was one of the best things he could have done. I was raised to never beat a woman as well as most, but he did not beat the crap out of her. He got her attention and as the story shows her respect. My sister-in-law experienced the same thing one Thanksgiving in a house full of God-Fearing backwoods hillbilles. She was being incredibly rude and hateful to her husband (verbally abusive) He took her over his knee and swatted her like the child she was acting and got a standing ovation from all 35 of her family members. She never treated him like that again.

 

I believe Perrin did not aks for help getting Faile back because he disregarded what he knew was right (bringing Masema back and helping prepare for TG by standing by Rand's side) and followed his heart. This is another pivotal change in the Perrin character. He is no longer thinking before he steps. It seems more realistic to me.

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It seems to me that those who loathe the Perrin story arc must not be or never have been married. I am apporaching 20 years of marriage and if any one kidnapped or harmed my wife and children I would do everything in my power to see that they became one with a shallow grave, most likely in multiple pieces with no reguard for any of those who stood in my way. Also, all other things in my life would take the back seat until she/they returned safely or were avenged. So I guess I can empathize with Perrin in his fear and zealousness.

 

The first couple of years of my marriage (we got married at 19) was very similar to what we see with Perrin and Faile relationship. Both of us trying to figure out how the other ticked, stretching the boundries. Another thing with the arc I can buy into, been there done that.

 

Faile was raised in a culture that both husband and wife carry the strength of the family and showing back bone and taking care of buisness is proper. She also tries to make Perrin act as though he were raised the same. while Perrin was raised by a bunch of timid wimps that allowed a petite, 26 year old, mouthy, woman push them around as though they were the very sheep they sheared.

 

Perrin turning faile over his knee was one of the best things he could have done. I was raised to never beat a woman as well as most, but he did not beat the crap out of her. He got her attention and as the story shows her respect. My sister-in-law experienced the same thing one Thanksgiving in a house full of God-Fearing backwoods hillbilles. She was being incredibly rude and hateful to her husband (verbally abusive) He took her over his knee and swatted her like the child she was acting and got a standing ovation from all 35 of her family members. She never treated him like that again.

 

I believe Perrin did not aks for help getting Faile back because he disregarded what he knew was right (bringing Masema back and helping prepare for TG by standing by Rand's side) and followed his heart. This is another pivotal change in the Perrin character. He is no longer thinking before he steps. It seems more realistic to me.

 

Look, I have to call BS on this. I've been in a long term relationship - we're engaged in every meaningful way, it's just not the right time to get married - for over three years, my parents have been married way longer than you, buddy.

 

I don't give a Rattus norvegicus' posterior what you do in your so-called "God-fearing" hillybilly land, but where I'm from, in NY, you do what that guy did, and you're running a serious risk of getting the living daylights beaten out of you by her largest male relative. Moreover, considering the ethnic makeup of the city's police force, you're looking at jail time, since if she's Italian or Irish, there's a non-zero chance her family is very good friends in one way or another with one of New York's Finest.

 

Moreover, where on Earth do you get off attaching "God-fearing" to what you described? My priest, not to mention my family's dear friend, one of the retired bishops here, and my entire church would say that raising a hand to your wife, absent, obviously, some kind of *real threat*, is the absolute lowest you can go. Every cop I knew growing up - meaning fellow parishioners - said that the things that disturbed were in order, child molestation, rape, and wife beating.

 

And the fellow in your story is going to be in for a major surprise when he finds out that the Big Guy probably agrees with me.

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Chill, Mr Micawber!

 

Different strokes for different folks, you know? And I'm with Robo-Hillbilly on this. Personally, if a man allowed me to verbally or physically abuse him without putting his foot down (which could include a swat on the bottom), I would have nothing but disgust and zero respect for him. Of course, if he slapped me through the face, I'd rip off his arm and feed it to him from the "other" end :P

 

Different people and different cultures have different likes and dislikes.

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I think that's the point at the end of the day Elgee.  We all view the world through the lense of our own cultural beliefs.  It's clear many of us are very passionate in those beliefs, which only makes sense given that many of us were raised from a very young age to believe certain things.

 

In my case I was raised never to hit a woman.  There isn't an excuse, ever.  I can understand those who say a woman may have it coming if she's hitting you, but I was taught to find other ways to solve the situation.

 

I didn't raise a hand to my wife when she got either verbally or physically abusive.  I gave as good as I got verbally, and I restrained her if I needed to.  When that wasn't enough I divorced her ass instead.

 

There is no excuse to let yourself be trampled over by a woman, but neither is there any excuse to hit her.  I find Robo-Hillbilly's story of a man turning a woman over his knee at a party horrifying.  I don't care what she did, doing that in public is just wrong in my opinion.

 

But that's just my opinion and I'd never tell someone else how to live.  However, because people like Mic or myself are so passionate about not harming women that's why we have such an extreme reaction the idea of it happening even in a book.

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I am not saying I don't understand Perrin, I am simply saying I don't like or respect his character. I was taught from an early age good leadership means the willingness to sacrifice personal interest for others.  Bad leadership is simply obtaining enough power and strength to fulfill ones own personal interest. Being a leader entails a responsibility for those you lead.

 

Perrin is a bad leader.  He puts others in danger to pursue a limited personal interest (rescuing Faile). He is willing to sacrifice his personal morality (chopping of a prisoners arms), sacrifice hundreds of soldiers, and ally himself with the Seachean (who he believes to be akin to the Dark One) to accomplish this.  I can understand why he does this - but understanding it make me dislike him.

 

Given his personality traits he is a liability. Most bad people aren't evil, they simply are willing to do horrible things to others to achieve their own limited interest whatever the cost to others.  Perrin is a bad person. This could make for an interesting storyline, but still I find it hard to like him. 

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It wouldn't have hurt if there had been some connection back to Rand's party - perhaps through Davram Bashere? But there wasn't, so for a whole while, Perrin felt removed from the main occurences in Randland and thus marginalized any importance his actions had in that arc.

The only connection I can think of is the views of Rand that the taver'en draw has on Perrin.

 

Faile was raised in a culture that both husband and wife carry the strength of the family and showing back bone and taking care of buisness is proper. She also tries to make Perrin act as though he were raised the same. while Perrin was raised by a bunch of timid wimps that allowed a petite, 26 year old, mouthy, woman push them around as though they were the very sheep they sheared.

Ooooo, guess you're not a Nynaeve fan . . .

 

Is Mat being blasted for spanking an AS as badly as Perrin for spanking Faile?

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Not generally, but I think that's for two reasons.  In my mind a woman with the power is stronger than a man, so it bothers me less because not only can she generally defend herself but she could take on multiple men with casual ease.

 

The second reason is that's Mat's storyline was interesting, where Perrin's was not.  Its harder to nitpick when you are swept up in a good story.  Its easy when that story isn't compelling, and in fact is often used as a sleeping aid.

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In my mind a woman with the power is stronger than a man, so it bothers me less because not only can she generally defend herself but she could take on multiple men with casual ease.

 

In my case I was raised never to hit a woman.  There isn't an excuse, ever.

 

Can't have it both ways.

 

Perrin was being physically and verbally abused by Faile and repeatedly ask her to stop, he said so with a firm neutral tone. She continued endlessly so Perrin spanked, wow what a horrible guy.

 

Arkelias are you like Rand and not fight Lanefear one of the most powerful and evil forsakens who is threatening the lives of your friends, on the soul fact she is a women. Or you could fight evil, no matter that that evil maybe a women. In a way this is sexism a women can get away with certian things a man can't, just because she doesn't have a penis.  

 

Perrin obliterated the Shadio,(who are enemies of Rand) and saved his wife and the queen of ghealden whom sweared allegiance to the dragon. Masema's men got slaughtered and between him and the Seanchan lost 100 guys. Not to mention saved 100,000 people from slavery. Man what a selfish prick.

 

He tortured somebody, in a fit of rage and yeah he is pretty crazy and dangerous, but you said you always wanted compelling stories and character. I love the talk him and Eylas have and him deciding to give up the axe. This just shows what he is capable of when he loses control. I don't think he is a bad person like people have said. He saved the TR, voluntarily went to Rand his friend, and saved him at Dumai Wells, he stayed loyal and went to Ghealden on behalf of his friend, ignored berelains advances, and defeated the shadio and is well on his way to dealing with Masema. He also got Ghealden for Rand.    

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Not generally, but I think that's for two reasons.  In my mind a woman with the power is stronger than a man, so it bothers me less because not only can she generally defend herself but she could take on multiple men with casual ease.

But with his medallion, Mat had neutralized her strength, so how is it really any different?

 

RJ was of an age with my husband, who is a few years older than I am. How the world viewed physical violence against women has changed since we were young. I lent a copy of my DVD of the film The Quiet Man to a coworker, and when I asked her how she liked it (she's GenXer and a gentle soul), and she didn't really enjoy it. It troubled her the way the John Wayne character manhandled the Maureen O'Hara character (his wife) in the film. There was even the scene where the little old lady offered John a stick so he could beat the pretty lady. I didn't offer my coworker the lending of my film McClintock, because there's another wife beating scene--well spanking.

 

I'm not into guys who "beat" women, and a smart man (and woman) should make every effort to find a way to deal with anyone short of violence, but I take exception that a man should never be able to defend himself from a physically abusive woman. Should Mat have let the Shaido Aiel DF kill him?

 

I got my black belt in Karate last year, and if a guy would never hit me, how would I ever be able to spar? I've taken hits from plenty of guys, though normally my sparring partners are women. A strong man could still take me, but I'd certainly make him earn it.  :D

 

The second reason is that's Mat's storyline was interesting, where Perrin's was not.  Its harder to nitpick when you are swept up in a good story.  Its easy when that story isn't compelling, and in fact is often used as a sleeping aid.

You crack me up!

 

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