The Show Has Been Cancelled

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Why make it personal at all? 

 

And if the show objectively did not understand the books, why is it that "many, many" book fans really loved the show? 

 

Clearly many people are disappointed that the show has been cancelled, many couldn't care less and there are those that are happy about it which I struggle to understand. But hey, you guys do you. 

[Elessar]

First let me say, I am in the ‘I love the Wheel of Time (WOT) books-thought the tv series was disappointing and gradually lost interest in it but was glad it was giving other fans enjoyment’-camp. Since the tv series now is cancelled by Amazon Prime I will post my reflections here in what will be a very long post. It will be critical but is not meant as a rant, simply my honest reflections and I hope people will bear with me.

 

I have lived with WOT since the early 1990s and have roleplayed with characters from the Wheel of Time universe for 25+ years so WOT means a lot to me. Robert Jordan’s masterful saga is among the best books in fantasy I have ever read and since I have been so involved with this universe for so many years it is special to me to a greater extent than say Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire which I also love.

 

When I first heard they were going to make a tv series of the WOT I was struck with a mixture of feelings. Joy for I thought this amazing fantasy saga deserved the tv series treatment although I never thought it would happen due to the enormous source material, but also kinda dread because I feared a tv series would never be able to do this majestic saga and story justice. But I wanted to give it a chance and was excited like most fans.

 

As I watched season 1, however, my joy diminshed and much of the reason was the huge changes from the books. We all know some narrative changes need to be made when a book is made into a tv series or film. Not everything transfers well from the book page to the tv screen. Also some things need be cut and simplified. That is all fine. But the question is, what do you cut and what do you change. I thought there were far too many changes to season 1 compared to The Eye of the World and some of these changes were to me unfathomable and deeply serious.

 

The worst mistake was to create the illusion that the Dragon Reborn could be either male or female. In what world was this a good choice? The whole danger-element with the Dragon Reborn being male with his Saidin and fears he will destroy the world in madness is gone if the Dragon Reborn is a female. You just cannot make such a radical change if you care for and are faithful to the source material regardless of wanting to keep excitement as to the reveal for viewers (and be politically correct). Some changes you just don’t make. It is disrespectful and damaging to the integrity of Robert Jordan’s vision and books.

 

The opening with the running man chased by Red Sisters was a total misfire. Firstly a viewer who never read the books will not have a clue as to what is going on, it is just confusing. One needs some backstory to understand the madness and that there is just one person running and not two. And who the riders are. I cannot fathom that they thought this was a good decision, especially since they had not introduced the concept of the One Power, Saidin and Saidar.

 

What they should have done instead? I see several options. To stay faithful to the books they could/should have had the epic opening from the Prologue in the Eye of the World, with Ishamael and Lews Therin. It might have seemed a little strange to viewers not having read the books but would have been a hell of a lot better than what they gave us. A second option would have been to start as with Rand and Tam in the books. A third option, if they needed something more exciting/dramatic, would have been to have started with a Lord of the Rings-type beginning with a voiceover speaking and showing events happening in the Age of Legends, the War of Power and thereby giving a proper backstory to the saga. Three minutes of this could have done the job, so a solid opening. 

 

And if neither of these options were on the table, then they could have started with the dramatic Logain-opening from ep 4 season 1 (the war in Ghealdan in which Logain is battling his way to the King) which would have been impactful and brought interest and also be a red herring for a twist as to the Dragon Reborn. Quite frankly, all those four options would have been better in my eyes.

 

Dropping Caemlyn was another mistake in my view, it was an interesting and valuable and sweet moment in the book when Rand sees the captured false Dragon and when he falls off the wall and is met by Elayne with the subsequent “foretelling” by Elaida. Adding a wife for Perrin? Really? And making all the boys less innocent? Next, portraying the Forsaken Ishamael as a calm philosophical man looking no more dangerous than your friendly neighbour was another unexplicable change for me. We remember him from the books, a half-mad dangerous character and evil villain and quite frankly having him appear in a hooded dark cloak kinda like the Nazgul in the Lord of the Rings say with the hint or red eyes from the hood, that would have made it work a lot better for me. 

 

The ending at the Eye is also revisionist, changing everything, and disappointed me. Cutting the Forsaken from 13 to 8 as I got the impression was another blunder. The number 13 has important significance in Robert Jordan’s saga as we know, so of course there should have been 13 Forsaken in the tv series even if we only saw say 7 or 8 of them acting on screen (we would know the others were present somewhere in the lands).

 

It is a question of being faithful to the important things, the characters in the books, how they look and how they behave. Important scenes and happenings. That is what we expect and what we deserve. If you change too much it becomes fan fiction or the story seen through a Portal Stone World, while it is Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time world we want to see. Game of Thrones was much more faithful to the books especially in seasons 1 and 2 and as we know, the more you change at the beginning, the more you need to change later. So never change too much at the start. As for adding some things, though I want to stay faithful to the story I can accept some additions if they make the story even better on screen. Adding Arwen to the brilliant Lord of the Rings movies was such an example. An example in WOT is the moment with Nynaeve and Logain when Saidar blossoms in her. That was an awesome scene visually and I enjoyed it even though I knew it never happened in the books.

 

As for seasons 2 and 3, though there was better production quality and improvements, there were still too many changes for me with some of them more impactful than others. Having Rand seek out Logain in season 2 which never happened in the books. It felt jarring to me. And Min manipulated by Liandrin and then Ishamael? This is totally different from the books. And Ishamael working with the Sanchean? From the books we know it was an other Forsaken who did that. Not to mention Moiraine’s stilling and her arc and depiction which did not sit well with me, neither Ishamael’s arc. Sometimes I scratched my head in bewilderment. Lanfear as an innkeeper in Cairhien? Seriously!? Can anyone who read the books imagine proud, glory-hunting, classy in a dark way Lanfear as an innkeeper? The premise is preposterous. Make her an advisor to a King, someone who whispers in the King’s ears, or say a Noblewoman. But innkeeper? What were they thinking? Other changes I could mention too, several from season 3, but I think you get the point by now.

 

Let me add that I do think Rafe had the heart in the right place and wanted to make the tv series worthy of Robert Jordan’s books. He made a great effort and some book fans did indeed enjoy the tv series despite its many differences (they were able to look at the two mediums as separate something I never managed). Personally though I think his creative vision and choices were often misplaced and what he gave us may have worked for non-book readers and some book fans but not for those of us who wanted a faithful and worthy adaptation of Robert Jordan’s story.

 

As mentioned, I feared they would not be able to do this majestic story justice simply because there are 14 books (+prequel) to incorporate and these books are thick as bricks and filled with massive storytelling. Even if you cut away the surplus descriptions etc and less important subplots etc you are left with say at least 10 large books telling the main story in all its brilliant intricacy and glory. When I heard how few episodes would be in each season I thought this will never work. For the showrunners to do The Wheel of Time justice one would need 10 seasons of 12 episodes in my view and I quickly understood that would never be possible, partly because it would cost too much and partly because it would be impossible to keep hold on actors, producers, other show workers etc for 15 years.

 

I therefore thought it more realistic that the tv series would get 6/7 seasons which would make for a much simplified story but where they might at least be able to complete Rand’s arc from the start to the end. That the tv series now only got 3 seasons making the story nowhere near finished was surprising to me since I had the impression the tv series did quite well for Amazon and I was pretty certain it would at least get a couple more seasons. I am sorry for the fans of the tv series and disappointed with Amazon, although personally I lost interest in the tv series as it went along and find much more enjoyment in re-reading the brilliant books and having much fun roleplaying in Robert Jordan’s universe (PS. I recommend roleplay-writing at DM, in earlier years it was very popular here at the site but in recent years interest in roleplay has unfortunately dwindled, so join in and have fun!)

 

I recommend the fantastic The Wheel of Time-books for any tv series viewer who wants to dive into this fascinating world. However, people are different and some will prefer the books, some the tv series, and some will enjoy both. Perhaps it was too ambitious of Amazon to try and bring the massive The Wheel of Time to the tv screen, but they deserve credit for the guts to try even if they lost faith half-way through.

Edited May 24 by Elessar

[Elder_Haman]

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

I take exception because you deliberately used the term negatively to encapsulate the entire viewership that did not like the show.

Sure didn't.

 

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

As you have done repeatedly before.

Sure haven't.

 

5 hours ago, Mailman said:

I will not be further discussing this issue.

Oh no!! I think I might cry.

 

2 hours ago, Babbus said:

Ever learn of the invisible hand? Where money is in a capitalist society kinda means exactly what the broader human society values.

You're correct!! Of course, that wasn't what you said. You said that broader human society agreed that "this was a twisted and stupid version of [WoT]." There is no evidence for that proposition.

 

2 hours ago, Babbus said:

This elder haman guy is ... insufferable

I'm definitely going to lose sleep over your opinion. Definitely.

 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

lives in a state of constant self-perceived victimhood and believes everything they see or hear is some kind of attack on them.

I'm not a victim. Nor have I said anyone else is a victim.

 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

Did I say I hate Rafe Judkins?

No.

 

1 hour ago, Mirefox said:

The fact that we can’t call out a guy for saying “I love the book, and here’s everything I’m changing to better fit the way I think it should be” without white knights flying to his rescue and saying “why hate people?” shows such a lack of critical thinking.

In what way does it demonstrate a lack of critical thinking? I think coming in to dance on the grave of a project that so many people put their heart and soul into is just poor taste. But you do you. I have always been consistent on these forums: tell me specifically what you disliked and why. That is the realm of critical thought. There is literally no reason that the strengths and weaknesses of the show can't be discussed without devolving into personal attacks on the showrunner and speculation about his motivations.

 

At least with the show over, I can be done with that tired nonsense.

[SinisterDeath]

59 minutes ago, Elessar said:

First let me say, I am in the ‘I love the Wheel of Time (WOT) books-thought the tv series was disappointing and gradually lost interest in it but was glad it was giving other fans enjoyment’-camp. Since the tv series now is cancelled by Amazon Prime I will post my reflections here in what will be a very long post. It will be critical but is not meant as a rant, simply my honest reflections and I hope people will bear with me.

 

I have lived with WOT since the early 1990s and have roleplayed with characters from the Wheel of Time universe for 25+ years so WOT means a lot to me. Robert Jordan’s masterful saga is among the best books in fantasy I have ever read and since I have been so involved with this universe for so many years it is special to me to a greater extent than say Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire which I also love.

 

When I first heard they were going to make a tv series of the WOT I was struck with a mixture of feelings. Joy for I thought this amazing fantasy saga deserved the tv series treatment although I never thought it would happen due to the enormous source material, but also kinda dread because I feared a tv series would never be able to do this majestic saga and story justice. But I wanted to give it a chance and was excited like most fans.

 

As I watched season 1, however, my joy diminshed and much of the reason was the huge changes from the books. We all know some narrative changes need to be made when a book is made into a tv series or film. Not everything transfers well from the book page to the tv screen. Also some things need be cut and simplified. That is all fine. But the question is, what do you cut and what do you change. I thought there were far too many changes to season 1 compared to The Eye of the World and some of these changes were to me unfathomable and deeply serious.

 

The worst mistake was to create the illusion that the Dragon Reborn could be either male or female. In what world was this a good choice? The whole danger-element with the Dragon Reborn being male with his Saidin and fears he will destroy the world in madness is gone if the Dragon Reborn is a female. You just cannot make such a radical change if you care for and are faithful to the source material regardless of wanting to keep excitement as to the reveal for viewers (and be politically correct). Some changes you just don’t make. It is disrespectful and damaging to the integrity of Robert Jordan’s vision and books.

 

The opening with the running man chased by Red Sisters was a total misfire. Firstly a viewer who never read the books will not have a clue as to what is going on, it is just confusing. One needs some backstory to understand the madness and that there is just one person running and not two. And who the riders are. I cannot fathom that they thought this was a good decision, especially since they had not introduced the concept of the One Power, Saidin and Saidar.

 

What they should have done instead? I see several options. To stay faithful to the books they could/should have had the epic opening from the Prologue in the Eye of the World, with Ishamael and Lews Therin. It might have seemed a little strange to viewers not having read the books but would have been a hell of a lot better than what they gave us. A second option would have been to start as with Rand and Tam in the books. A third option, if they needed something more exciting/dramatic, would have been to have started with a Lord of the Rings-type beginning with a voiceover speaking and showing events happening in the Age of Legends, the War of Power and thereby giving a proper backstory to the saga. Three minutes of this could have done the job, so a solid opening. 

 

And if neither of these options were on the table, then they could have started with the dramatic Logain-opening from ep 4 season 1 (the war in Ghealdan in which Logain is battling his way to the King) which would have been impactful and brought interest and also be a red herring for a twist as to the Dragon Reborn. Quite frankly, all those four options would have been better in my eyes.

 

Dropping Caemlyn was another mistake in my view, it was an interesting and valuable and sweet moment in the book when Rand sees the captured false Dragon and when he falls off the wall and is met by Elayne with the subsequent “foretelling” by Elaida. Adding a wife for Perrin? Really? And making all the boys less innocent? Next, portraying the Forsaken Ishamael as a calm philosophical man looking no more dangerous than your friendly neighbour was another unexplicable change for me. We remember him from the books, a half-mad dangerous character and evil villain and quite frankly having him appear in a hooded dark cloak kinda like the Nazgul in the Lord of the Rings say with the hint or red eyes from the hood, that would have made it work a lot better for me. 

 

The ending at the Eye is also revisionist, changing everything, and disappointed me. Cutting the Forsaken from 13 to 8 as I got the impression was another blunder. The number 13 has important significance in Robert Jordan’s saga as we know, so of course there should have been 13 Forsaken in the tv series even if we only saw say 7 or 8 of them acting on screen (we would know the others were present somewhere in the lands).

 

It is a question of being faithful to the important things, the characters in the books, how they look and how they behave. Important scenes and happenings. That is what we expect and what we deserve. If you change too much it becomes fan fiction or the story seen through a Portal Stone World, while it is Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time world we want to see. Game of Thrones was much more faithful to the books especially in seasons 1 and 2 and as we know, the more you change at the beginning, the more you need to change later. So never change too much at the start. As for adding some things, though I want to stay faithful to the story I can accept some additions if they make the story even better on screen. Adding Arwen to the brilliant Lord of the Rings movies was such an example. An example in WOT is the moment with Nynaeve and Logain when Saidar blossoms in her. That was an awesome scene visually and I enjoyed it even though I knew it never happened in the books.

 

As for seasons 2 and 3, though there was better production quality and improvements, there were still too many changes for me with some of them more impactful than others. Having Rand seek out Logain in season 2 which never happened in the books. It felt jarring to me. And Min manipulated by Liandrin and then Ishamael? This is totally different from the books. And Ishamael working with the Sanchean? From the books we know it was an other Forsaken who did that. Not to mention Moiraine’s stilling and her arc and depiction which did not sit well with me, neither Ishamael’s arc. Sometimes I scratched my head in bewilderment. Lanfear as an innkeeper in Cairhien? Seriously!? Can anyone who read the books imagine proud, glory-hunting, classy in a dark way Lanfear as an innkeeper? The premise is preposterous. Make her an advisor to a King, someone who whispers in the King’s ears, or say a Noblewoman. But innkeeper? What were they thinking? Other changes I could mention too, several from season 3, but I think you get the point by now.

 

Let me add that I do think Rafe had the heart in the right place and wanted to make the tv series worthy of Robert Jordan’s books. He made a great effort and some book fans did indeed enjoy the tv series despite its many differences (they were able to look at the two mediums as separate something I never managed). Personally though I think his creative vision and choices were often misplaced and what he gave us may have worked for non-book readers and some book fans but not for those of us who wanted a faithful and worthy adaptation of Robert Jordan’s story.

 

As mentioned, I feared they would not be able to do this majestic story justice simply because there are 14 books (+prequel) to incorporate and these books are thick as bricks and filled with massive storytelling. Even if you cut away the surplus descriptions etc and less important subplots etc you are left with say at least 10 large books telling the main story in all its brilliant intricacy and glory. When I heard how few episodes would be in each season I thought this will never work. For the showrunners to do The Wheel of Time justice one would need 10 seasons of 12 episodes in my view and I quickly understood that would never be possible, partly because it would cost too much and partly because it would be impossible to keep hold on actors, producers, other show workers etc for 15 years.

 

I therefore thought it more realistic that the tv series would get 6/7 seasons which would make for a much simplified story but where they might at least be able to complete Rand’s arc from the start to the end. That the tv series now only got 3 seasons making the story nowhere near finished was surprising to me since I had the impression the tv series did quite well for Amazon and I was pretty certain it would at least get a couple more seasons. I am sorry for the fans of the tv series and disappointed with Amazon, although personally I lost interest in the tv series as it went along and find much more enjoyment in re-reading the brilliant books and having much fun roleplaying in Robert Jordan’s universe (PS. I recommend roleplay-writing at DM, in earlier years it was very popular here at the site but in recent years interest in roleplay has unfortunately dwindled, so join in and have fun!)

 

I recommend the fantastic The Wheel of Time-books for any tv series viewer who wants to dive into this fascinating world. However, people are different and some will prefer the books, some the tv series, and some will enjoy both. Perhaps it was too ambitious of Amazon to try and bring the massive The Wheel of Time to the tv screen, but they deserve credit for the guts to try even if they lost faith half-way through.

Thank you!

It's was refreshing to read the perspective from someone who didn't enjoy the show, and was able to kept the vitriol out of their critical assessment.

 

[Mirefox]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Sure didn't.

 

Sure haven't.

 

Oh no!! I think I might cry.

 

You're correct!! Of course, that wasn't what you said. You said that broader human society agreed that "this was a twisted and stupid version of [WoT]." There is no evidence for that proposition.

 

I'm definitely going to lose sleep over your opinion. Definitely.

 

I'm not a victim. Nor have I said anyone else is a victim.

 

No.

 

In what way does it demonstrate a lack of critical thinking? I think coming in to dance on the grave of a project that so many people put their heart and soul into is just poor taste. But you do you. I have always been consistent on these forums: tell me specifically what you disliked and why. That is the realm of critical thought. There is literally no reason that the strengths and weaknesses of the show can't be discussed without devolving into personal attacks on the showrunner and speculation about his motivations.

 

At least with the show over, I can be done with that tired nonsense.

When the showrunner before the show even starts explicitly states his motivations for how he intends to use the story, his explicit stated intentions are a) fair game for discussion and a Ken’s through which to see his work and b) not a personal attack.

 

You keep using the term personal attack and you clearly don’t know what that means.  Critiquing a work - even vehemently - is not a personal attack.  You double- and triple- down on saying any critique tied to Judkins’s handling of the source is a personal attack.  
 

You say that there is no reason the strengths and weaknesses of the show can’t be discussed but we have been doing that for three entire seasons and those of us with myriad complaints have been continually nay-sayed by a handful here and then called haters.  Half the weakness of this show stems from the weakness of the writing but if we attack that, we’re suddenly haters and attacking everyone personally according to some of you.  

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Mirefox said:

Half the weakness of this show stems from the weakness of the writing but if we attack that, we’re suddenly haters and attacking everyone personally according to some of you.  

I don't like being lumped in with "some of you". My position has been crystal clear since the very beginning:

There's nothing wrong with criticizing the writing: I have personally been critical of the writing in the show. I agree that talking about Rafe's public comments are fair game, and that it is absolutely fair to say that the show reflected many of Rafe's political preferences.

 

Where I draw the line is: (1) statements questioning his motives in wanting to create a good product; (2) statements opining that Rafe believes he's superior to RJ; (3) statements imputing a desire to 'ruin' the product to Rafe; and (4) statements about how "RJ would be rolling over in his grave" and the like. 

On a personal note, I will say that you are a good faith actor. My irritation stems from finding it distasteful that so many are gleeful about the show being canceled. The existence of the show harmed no one. Though it was far from perfect, I enjoyed watching it, talking about it, and speculating on its future. I am sad to see it go and sad that I will not get to see any of the threads wrapped up.

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

You keep using the term personal attack and you clearly don’t know what that means.  Critiquing a work - even vehemently - is not a personal attack.  You double- and triple- down on saying any critique tied to Judkins’s handling of the source is a personal attack.  

 

It's the hyperbolic and vitriolic language that has run rampant online.

Been to Facebook or Reddit recently?

 

When you have to sit here, and approve or deny spam bot accounts every day, and then you get a bunch of new accounts all in one day because news like this drops, and they're all saying the same type of comments like they're all coming from the same social media engagement bot farm over in India/Russia that's plagued every social media site ever?

 

It can be easy to start to reading the same verbiage one person uses, as something someone else uses.

 

I have literally read people wishing death t against Rafe on this very site, and others because of the changes.

 

That's why I suggest everyone take it down a notch, or this Topic will get locked.

[SinisterDeath]

7 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Where I draw the line is: (1) statements questioning his motives in wanting to create a good product; (2) statements opining that Rafe believes he's superior to RJ; (3) statements imputing a desire to 'ruin' the product to Rafe; and (4) statements about how "RJ would be rolling over in his grave" and the like. 

This right here.

[Knoell]

32 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Where I draw the line is: (1) statements questioning his motives in wanting to create a good product; (2) statements opining that Rafe believes he's superior to RJ; (3) statements imputing a desire to 'ruin' the product to Rafe; and (4) statements about how "RJ would be rolling over in his grave" and the like. 

 

How can one believe Rafe didn't think he was a superior writer to Robert Jordan when he attempts to rewrite the books in a way that doesn't condense but fundamentally changes Jordan's world and story.

[Elder_Haman]

4 minutes ago, Knoell said:

when he attempts to rewrite the books

He didn’t “attempt to rewrite the books”, he attempted to adapt them to the screen.  That’s a completely different thing. 

[Blueberry]

2 hours ago, Elessar said:

First let me say, I am in the ‘I love the Wheel of Time (WOT) books-thought the tv series was disappointing and gradually lost interest in it but was glad it was giving other fans enjoyment’-camp. Since the tv series now is cancelled by Amazon Prime I will post my reflections here in what will be a very long post. It will be critical but is not meant as a rant, simply my honest reflections and I hope people will bear with me.

 

I have lived with WOT since the early 1990s and have roleplayed with characters from the Wheel of Time universe for 25+ years so WOT means a lot to me. Robert Jordan’s masterful saga is among the best books in fantasy I have ever read and since I have been so involved with this universe for so many years it is special to me to a greater extent than say Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire which I also love.

 

When I first heard they were going to make a tv series of the WOT I was struck with a mixture of feelings. Joy for I thought this amazing fantasy saga deserved the tv series treatment although I never thought it would happen due to the enormous source material, but also kinda dread because I feared a tv series would never be able to do this majestic saga and story justice. But I wanted to give it a chance and was excited like most fans.

 

As I watched season 1, however, my joy diminshed and much of the reason was the huge changes from the books. We all know some narrative changes need to be made when a book is made into a tv series or film. Not everything transfers well from the book page to the tv screen. Also some things need be cut and simplified. That is all fine. But the question is, what do you cut and what do you change. I thought there were far too many changes to season 1 compared to The Eye of the World and some of these changes were to me unfathomable and deeply serious.

 

The worst mistake was to create the illusion that the Dragon Reborn could be either male or female. In what world was this a good choice? The whole danger-element with the Dragon Reborn being male with his Saidin and fears he will destroy the world in madness is gone if the Dragon Reborn is a female. You just cannot make such a radical change if you care for and are faithful to the source material regardless of wanting to keep excitement as to the reveal for viewers (and be politically correct). Some changes you just don’t make. It is disrespectful and damaging to the integrity of Robert Jordan’s vision and books.

 

The opening with the running man chased by Red Sisters was a total misfire. Firstly a viewer who never read the books will not have a clue as to what is going on, it is just confusing. One needs some backstory to understand the madness and that there is just one person running and not two. And who the riders are. I cannot fathom that they thought this was a good decision, especially since they had not introduced the concept of the One Power, Saidin and Saidar.

 

What they should have done instead? I see several options. To stay faithful to the books they could/should have had the epic opening from the Prologue in the Eye of the World, with Ishamael and Lews Therin. It might have seemed a little strange to viewers not having read the books but would have been a hell of a lot better than what they gave us. A second option would have been to start as with Rand and Tam in the books. A third option, if they needed something more exciting/dramatic, would have been to have started with a Lord of the Rings-type beginning with a voiceover speaking and showing events happening in the Age of Legends, the War of Power and thereby giving a proper backstory to the saga. Three minutes of this could have done the job, so a solid opening. 

 

And if neither of these options were on the table, then they could have started with the dramatic Logain-opening from ep 4 season 1 (the war in Ghealdan in which Logain is battling his way to the King) which would have been impactful and brought interest and also be a red herring for a twist as to the Dragon Reborn. Quite frankly, all those four options would have been better in my eyes.

 

Dropping Caemlyn was another mistake in my view, it was an interesting and valuable and sweet moment in the book when Rand sees the captured false Dragon and when he falls off the wall and is met by Elayne with the subsequent “foretelling” by Elaida. Adding a wife for Perrin? Really? And making all the boys less innocent? Next, portraying the Forsaken Ishamael as a calm philosophical man looking no more dangerous than your friendly neighbour was another unexplicable change for me. We remember him from the books, a half-mad dangerous character and evil villain and quite frankly having him appear in a hooded dark cloak kinda like the Nazgul in the Lord of the Rings say with the hint or red eyes from the hood, that would have made it work a lot better for me. 

 

The ending at the Eye is also revisionist, changing everything, and disappointed me. Cutting the Forsaken from 13 to 8 as I got the impression was another blunder. The number 13 has important significance in Robert Jordan’s saga as we know, so of course there should have been 13 Forsaken in the tv series even if we only saw say 7 or 8 of them acting on screen (we would know the others were present somewhere in the lands).

 

It is a question of being faithful to the important things, the characters in the books, how they look and how they behave. Important scenes and happenings. That is what we expect and what we deserve. If you change too much it becomes fan fiction or the story seen through a Portal Stone World, while it is Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time world we want to see. Game of Thrones was much more faithful to the books especially in seasons 1 and 2 and as we know, the more you change at the beginning, the more you need to change later. So never change too much at the start. As for adding some things, though I want to stay faithful to the story I can accept some additions if they make the story even better on screen. Adding Arwen to the brilliant Lord of the Rings movies was such an example. An example in WOT is the moment with Nynaeve and Logain when Saidar blossoms in her. That was an awesome scene visually and I enjoyed it even though I knew it never happened in the books.

 

As for seasons 2 and 3, though there was better production quality and improvements, there were still too many changes for me with some of them more impactful than others. Having Rand seek out Logain in season 2 which never happened in the books. It felt jarring to me. And Min manipulated by Liandrin and then Ishamael? This is totally different from the books. And Ishamael working with the Sanchean? From the books we know it was an other Forsaken who did that. Not to mention Moiraine’s stilling and her arc and depiction which did not sit well with me, neither Ishamael’s arc. Sometimes I scratched my head in bewilderment. Lanfear as an innkeeper in Cairhien? Seriously!? Can anyone who read the books imagine proud, glory-hunting, classy in a dark way Lanfear as an innkeeper? The premise is preposterous. Make her an advisor to a King, someone who whispers in the King’s ears, or say a Noblewoman. But innkeeper? What were they thinking? Other changes I could mention too, several from season 3, but I think you get the point by now.

 

Let me add that I do think Rafe had the heart in the right place and wanted to make the tv series worthy of Robert Jordan’s books. He made a great effort and some book fans did indeed enjoy the tv series despite its many differences (they were able to look at the two mediums as separate something I never managed). Personally though I think his creative vision and choices were often misplaced and what he gave us may have worked for non-book readers and some book fans but not for those of us who wanted a faithful and worthy adaptation of Robert Jordan’s story.

 

As mentioned, I feared they would not be able to do this majestic story justice simply because there are 14 books (+prequel) to incorporate and these books are thick as bricks and filled with massive storytelling. Even if you cut away the surplus descriptions etc and less important subplots etc you are left with say at least 10 large books telling the main story in all its brilliant intricacy and glory. When I heard how few episodes would be in each season I thought this will never work. For the showrunners to do The Wheel of Time justice one would need 10 seasons of 12 episodes in my view and I quickly understood that would never be possible, partly because it would cost too much and partly because it would be impossible to keep hold on actors, producers, other show workers etc for 15 years.

 

I therefore thought it more realistic that the tv series would get 6/7 seasons which would make for a much simplified story but where they might at least be able to complete Rand’s arc from the start to the end. That the tv series now only got 3 seasons making the story nowhere near finished was surprising to me since I had the impression the tv series did quite well for Amazon and I was pretty certain it would at least get a couple more seasons. I am sorry for the fans of the tv series and disappointed with Amazon, although personally I lost interest in the tv series as it went along and find much more enjoyment in re-reading the brilliant books and having much fun roleplaying in Robert Jordan’s universe (PS. I recommend roleplay-writing at DM, in earlier years it was very popular here at the site but in recent years interest in roleplay has unfortunately dwindled, so join in and have fun!)

 

I recommend the fantastic The Wheel of Time-books for any tv series viewer who wants to dive into this fascinating world. However, people are different and some will prefer the books, some the tv series, and some will enjoy both. Perhaps it was too ambitious of Amazon to try and bring the massive The Wheel of Time to the tv screen, but they deserve credit for the guts to try even if they lost faith half-way through.

 

 

You really put into words what I struggled with when it came to the TV series. I was able to let it go because the writers did try to capture more of what the original fans were interested in as the show progressed, but I can see why it was not for you. 

 

What I feel saddest about is this may close many doors for The Wheel of Time. We had so much momentum going and new fans were swirling onto the scene that had had never known about the books before, getting to discover this fantastical world of WoT. Many want to start reading it now that its cancelled. 

 

I'm mourning the show as much as I am what that means at large for the WOT world and fandom. I'd love to see it animated closer to the books storyline, but Arcane was expensive as hellll and who wants to take a chance on an IP that has seemingly already failed. Praying this isn't the end for our beloved epic tale. 

[Knoell]

25 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

He didn’t “attempt to rewrite the books”, he attempted to adapt them to the screen.  That’s a completely different thing. 

 

The changes he made, and the additions he made did not give me the sense that he was condensing an existing story but writing WoT the way he thought it should be told.

[SinisterDeath]

34 minutes ago, Knoell said:

 

The changes he made, and the additions he made did not give me the sense that he was condensing an existing story but writing WoT the way he thought it should be told.

You speak of things, without knowing how convoluted the "process" really is, and how much "$$$" talks when it comes to "changing the script".

 

Case in point, Kevin Smith, mega comic nerd, was hired to re- the ill-fated Superman Lives movie..., And all it took was one coke addled Producer who kept getting his way to massively change the story over and over again...

 

 

 

 

 

[Turin Turambar]

These are you opinions,  and you are entitled to express them but you are stating them as facts. 

1 hour ago, Knoell said:

 

How can one believe Rafe didn't think he was a superior writer to Robert Jordan when he attempts to rewrite the books in a way that doesn't condense but fundamentally changes Jordan's world and story.

 

43 minutes ago, Knoell said:

 

The changes he made, and the additions he made did not give me the sense that he was condensing an existing story but writing WoT the way he thought it should be told.

You can certainly feel that way but I ask you not to assume to speak for me or anyone else by stating opinion as fact. The second one here where you make it about your feelings is more truthful and perfectly fine. The first one where you say it is as you feel is an overstep on your part.

[Figs and Mice]

I love the books ; and it is probably fair to say I have been ...underwhelmed ? Moderately disappointed ? with what they have produced as a show - although I do feel the writing improved a lot in the third series. I certainly wasn't voting to have it cancelled : flawed or not it was still something that obviously entertained many , and I was going to continue to watch it and see how they carried this complex project to a conclusion. So I am sorry to see it gone.

 

But to be honest I wasn't that surprised. I fear the first couple of seasons just didn't grab - or keep - enough viewers so left it vulnerable to budgetary risks. Which I suppose is on the people that made the show and didn't quite manage to do it justice. No need for hate though , or glee at its demise as it benefits no one.

 

Will anyone else have a go at this ? Not for a while , I'm afraid.  So for Rafe & co I will say at least thanks for trying , even if you never quite won me over - or , sadly , enough people overall.

 

Guess we will still kick a lot of this around for a while anyway. But won't quite have the same intensity , will it ?

[Blueberry]

2 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

It's the hyperbolic and vitriolic language that has run rampant online.

Been to Facebook or Reddit recently?

 

When you have to sit here, and approve or deny spam bot accounts every day, and then you get a bunch of new accounts all in one day because news like this drops, and they're all saying the same type of comments like they're all coming from the same social media engagement bot farm over in India/Russia that's plagued every social media site ever?

 

It can be easy to start to reading the same verbiage one person uses, as something someone else uses.

 

I have literally read people wishing death t against Rafe on this very site, and others because of the changes.

 

That's why I suggest everyone take it down a notch, or this Topic will get locked.

 

I do want to take a moment to acknowledge the work DM is doing keeping the site community oriented, and as bot free as possible, especially now as the topic is exploding. I much prefer websites that focus on quality and connection rather than places like reddit that are essentially 50 percent bots these days. 

 

Reddit and Facebook have been such a mixed bag, its sad to see people being made fun of for mourning the shows cancellation.

[CaddySedai]

Im sad because this is likely the end of new content for The Wheel of Time universe assuming they cant shop the series out to HBO or Apple or get a video game made. 

 

I never understood the “we would rather have nothing than this” attitude about the show from some - but to each their own. 

[Vartija]

Not terribly surprised by the news, though it is a pity for the poduction crew to get cancelled when everyone seems to agree the series had been improving season by season. In the end I think the show just never recovered it's potential viewership after the underwhelming first season. We can argue endlessly about the changes in the adaptation but it seems the show lost a lot of the built in fanbase early on as expressed by the drastic drop in viewership after S1E1. Quality wise the first season just wasn't that good either tbh and it ended up costing long term. It just never seemed to capture the attention of audiences and even with the improvements in S2 it felt like the momentum was gone.

 

I personally checked out after S2. It just felt the tone and narrative choices weren't for me and the disappointing end to S2 reinforced all the doubts I had after S1. Then I ended up cancelling Prime and so I haven't even watched the third season, though I've heard good things about it. As a tv show it just didn't capture me enough to stand on its own. 

 

Even if I was a bit disappointed in the show I did enjoy talking and speculating about it here. I'm a bit saddened by the fact that my own interest in the show fizzled between S2 & 3 because for a while this was the show I followed and talked about online and I miss that. Maybe I could have got back to it one day but alas... 

[DigificWriter]

As a person who hated the books, Rafe's approach to adapting the material was not only valid, but needed.

 

19 minutes ago, Knoell said:

 

The changes he made, and the additions he made did not give me the sense that he was condensing an existing story but writing WoT the way he thought it should be told.

 

Which is his prerogative as the person adapting the story.

 

The realm of  'book-to-screen adaptation' is the only place I've ever seen where people get vociferously angry about adaptors choosing to tell a story they love in a new and different (either slightly or significantly) way, and it's both irrational and ridiculous.

[wotfan4472]

11 hours ago, Elder_Haman said:

I’m not labeling anyone. They are labeling themselves. 

 

I don’t believe you. 

 

Nonsense.  There’s no reason to believe the IP will get another shot. Who is lining up to do something “better”? Sony is likely to sit on the rights until they lapse. 
 

Nobody is talking about rebooting His Dark Materials or Shadow & Bone or Carnival Row. 
 

No way!!

That is my thinking on this as well. WOT will not get another shot at the screen in live action.

 

Maybe video gaming is an option, and maybe an animated series. But, those two mediums are its last chances, and after this cancelling, even those two options become far harder for anyone to justify the effort in trying, both in numbers and in word of mouth.

 

It is a real shame. I was really enjoying it, and looking forward to what came after.

[divica]

9 hours ago, notpropaganda73 said:

Pretty disappointing to see tired old arguments about woke-ism and Rafe’s sinister motivations in here. You can just dislike the show without descending into petty point scoring or revelling in the show being cancelled.

 

I thought they had definitely found their footing and had really begun to focus properly on Rand’s story in S3. There are lessons in these 3 seasons for people looking at adaptations. Choices were made to sustain a vasts world across at least 8 seasons (per Rafe’s quotes about the absolutely minimum time needed to tell the story). However in hindsight, I think you would move things around a bit. Keep the world and story focussed and tight in S1, and expand things out bit by bit. I think they should have focussed on the EF5 almost exclusively in S1 with Moiraine’s leadership, and bring in the Tower politics and Warder bonds in S2. Abandon the Dragon “mystery” and let the EF5 breathe and develop on their own. The EF5 too often felt sidelined to me in that first season. I think it’s right to spread the focus, but maybe they did it too soon?
 

On the flipside of this, I rewatched S1 recently and in my view it actually holds up quite well until they go to the Blight and the COVID impacted episodes occur. Even then, Rand and Ishy at the Eye, with the possible futures, was the best part of the finale. But I just felt the show was hampered by some of its own decisions really. 
 

I’m sad it’s cancelled. I think they casting wad excellent and I suppose we’ll always have Rhuidean

I say this again. the show was doomed to fail from the beguining when they casted rosamund pike. moraine isn't ned stark! by casting such a big actress they decided to fundamentally change the story to increase moraine's role instead of focusing on the ef5 and try to adapt a simplified version of the books. 

And I don't think this should be up for debate. so I don't get how anyone can defend that rafe loves the books and wanted to make an adaptation with only the necessary changes for it to work on tv and the time constraints when just by casting rosamund pike shows he had no intention whatsoever of doing it. that choice garanteed that he had to rewrite a lot of the book events just to give more action time to rosmanund pike. 

[The_Watcher_And_Wanderer]

20 hours ago, Tephulis said:

So when were Rand's 3 love interests supposed to start?  Seems like they were making changes, not adaptations. I could go on & on...

Pretty sure it wasn’t going to happen. Seemed to me that Rand was going to ultimately end up with Egwene, Min was going to end up with Mat and Elayne and Avi were just going to end up with each other. I seriously think there was going to be a scene where Mat would basically say to Min, “The hell with the bloody Eelfin and the hell with Daughter of the nine bloody moons, I love you.”

[king of nowhere]

The real shame here is that the show got canceled just as it was improving.

If all subsequent seaseons had been like S1 (which still wasn't bad, btw) i wouldn't mind much. But the show got so much potential. It was getting better and better. S3 turned around even many critics. It deserved the chance to redeem its mediocre start.

I think some of the changes were very good. The relation between perrin and bornhald was so much better, so much deeper than its book version. I was really looking forward to seeing how it would go.

And i never likes the "and then the protagonist really wants it, and channels uber magic and solves the plot in the last ten pages. No, he won't be able to replicate it" deus ex machina so common to many fantasy, including the ending of the first books. Not that the show did a better job with endings, no.

Anyway, the show being different made it more interesting to me. It kept things fresh. It was recognizable enough as wot, but it was also a new story

 

But in the end, in order to view S3 one has to get past S1. That remains an obstacle for new viewers.

I'm sad for the missed opportunities

 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

37 minutes ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

Pretty sure it wasn’t going to happen. Seemed to me that Rand was going to ultimately end up with Egwene, Min was going to end up with Mat and Elayne and Avi were just going to end up with each other. I seriously think there was going to be a scene where Mat would basically say to Min, “The hell with the bloody Eelfin and the hell with Daughter of the nine bloody moons, I love you.”

Even though they were talking about making Rand's relationships into a more consensual polyamorous one? Min, I admit I have no idea where they were going with that one, but it looks like we are never going to find out. Elayne and Aviendha appeared to me to be being set up to be sister-wives, but not with Rand as the be all and end all in the relationship but as an equal partner.

[DigificWriter]

39 minutes ago, The_Watcher_And_Wanderer said:

Pretty sure it wasn’t going to happen

 

Rafe explicitly said that the Polycule would've definitely happened.