The Show Has Been Cancelled

[WheelofJuke]

17 hours ago, zacz1987 said:

I hope this opens up the possibility of an animated series in a few years that is more book accurate.

I sure hope so. 

The second read through, I tried picturing many scenes thru an anime lens, much to my internal vision's delight. Not saying it should use full-blown anime style, per se, just something visually lush and able to be (more) true to source material. 

 

[divica]

7 minutes ago, WheelofJuke said:

I sure hope so. 

The second read through, I tried picturing many scenes thru an anime lens, much to my internal vision's delight. Not saying it should use full-blown anime style, per se, just something visually lush and able to be (more) true to source material. 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if another streaming company continued the show.

It clearly needs a rebranding in order to atract the people it lost because of season 1 and that is a way to do it. besides that the ip probably lost value since amozon bought it and they might be willing to sell it at a low price to gain some of their losses.

[Mirefox]

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

That is my thinking on this as well. WOT will not get another shot at the screen in live action.

 

Maybe video gaming is an option, and maybe an animated series. But, those two mediums are its last chances, and after this cancelling, even those two options become far harder for anyone to justify the effort in trying, both in numbers and in word of mouth.

 

It is a real shame. I was really enjoying it, and looking forward to what came after.

I could be wrong, but I think I remember seeing that there is a WoT video game in the works.  Now, if it is based on the show it may never see the light of day.  

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Mirefox said:

1 hour ago, wotfan4472 said:

I could be wrong, but I think I remember seeing that there is a WoT video game in the works.

Correct. But it’s being orchestrated by REE, which gives me very little confidence in the final product. 

[Mirefox]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

Correct. But it’s being orchestrated by REE, which gives me very little confidence in the final product. 

Gotcha.  I know absolutely nothing about it other then a headline that is was in the works.

[Elder_Haman]

Just now, Mirefox said:

Gotcha.  I know absolutely nothing about it other then a headline that is was in the works.

I have half a mind to try to design a TTRPG…

[Flinn_Myth]

So...yeah. Loaded opinions and some personal attacks here that I want to try and avoid, but I did want to say that, though I did not like a majority of the changed plots, I never wanted the show to fail. I wanted it to succeed, and show more of what made the books memorable. So, hater maybe yes, but I in no way wanted the show to fail, because I know it's more than likely that nobody will attempt to touch this series again to make another show.

 

I think the overall style of writing was not that great, compared to the flow in the books (regardless of the adherence to the original main story plots), and I've never agreed with "character development" being a motivation for killing other characters (I mean, the last half of Season 3 alone: Sammael, Loail, Siuan, "red coronation", and Melindhra...but not Alanna, no; there must be exceptions...). At least Alsera was somewhat understandable, as it was a similar event in the books; but when you start the series off by doing so (i.e., Perrin), it becomes more than just a crutch, it becomes a depressing trope.

 

Anyone who has read the entire series, and supposedly loves it, would be hard pressed to take key moments out, even for the sake of saving presentation timeon screen to advance the overall story. They had to know what they were attempting to do was near impossible without proper planning and forethought, but the show never presented itself that way.

 

It was inconsistently done across the board. For Rand, the "romance" between Rand and Selene was too drawn out (after the Lanfear reveal), the lack of swordsmanship but keeping the heron mark blade, the sign of the dragon at Falme... these and many other decisions made the main character look weak. Egwene was a powerhouse in the book, so I don't agree that she should have been presented in a less favorable way, but taking out the Aiel cultural interaction (as gai'shan), and her unquestiond abilitiesin TAR did her a disservice. Perrin...like, why even have the yellow eyes if he isn't talking with wolves or hunting in TAR. That's all issue with character development. Nynaeve was good, but less fiery; and towards the end, I was beginning to enjoy Mat, Min, Thom, and Elayne.

 

There's the world building too, like the "laws" ensuring consistency in how the True Power is used, or simple human social dynamics. Very inconsistent, and very little diversity. Mixing different populations to the point where they have no defining character (other than farming in the Two Rivers and a bawdy song in Tanchico) is a disservice; nobody can be drawn in to a story world where each individual place looks different,  but the people look and act the same.

 

So, no, I didn't want the show to die, I wanted it to be better, and engrossing. It felt to me more frustrating and incoherent though, I'm not a director or an author, so I can't rightly say what could have been done better. I am a reader and a viewer though, and as a Wheel of Time story, the three seasons were disappointing; I know it deserved better, if they were to move forward.

[SinisterDeath]

40 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I have half a mind to try to design a TTRPG…

I'm about 5 years ahead of you there... Lol

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

I'm about 5 years ahead of you there... Lol

We should compare notes. 

[DigificWriter]

1 hour ago, divica said:

I wouldn't be surprised if another streaming company continued the show.

It clearly needs a rebranding in order to atract the people it lost because of season 1 and that is a way to do it. besides that the ip probably lost value since amozon bought it and they might be willing to sell it at a low price to gain some of their losses.

 

Amazon didn't buy anything.

 

IWoT continues to own the media rights to WoT. Sony Pictures Television simply licensed the television rights and then approached Amazon with their pitch for the show.

[Flinn_Myth]

50 minutes ago, Mirefox said:

Gotcha.  I know absolutely nothing about it other then a headline that is was in the works.

Here's some recent info on it:

https://www.ign.com/articles/the-wheel-of-time-aaa-open-world-rpg-is-legit-its-developers-insist-but-dont-hold-your-breath-for-a-release-date-it-could-be-a-ps6-and-next-xbox-game

[Knoell]

4 hours ago, Turin Turambar said:

These are you opinions,  and you are entitled to express them but you are stating them as facts. 

 

You can certainly feel that way but I ask you not to assume to speak for me or anyone else by stating opinion as fact. The second one here where you make it about your feelings is more truthful and perfectly fine. The first one where you say it is as you feel is an overstep on your part.

 

The changes made to Robert Jordan's story are irrefutable fact. Yours or my desire to like or dislike such changes are the opinion you speak of.

 

Rafe changed Robert Jordan's story is a factual statement.

[Knoell]

3 hours ago, DigificWriter said:

As a person who hated the books, Rafe's approach to adapting the material was not only valid, but needed.

 

 

Which is his prerogative as the person adapting the story.

 

The realm of  'book-to-screen adaptation' is the only place I've ever seen where people get vociferously angry about adaptors choosing to tell a story they love in a new and different (either slightly or significantly) way, and it's both irrational and ridiculous.

 

That's fair as I love the Lord of the rings movies and GoT show but Im sure there's a book fan base that decries their inaccuracies, however this is balanced out by the movie/tv show being objectively good in my opinion. Once GoT turned bad the audience rightfully turned on them.

 

In the end it has to be an outstanding show either way and clearly a sufficient audience didn't materialize to keep it running. All I'm saying is that Rafe's decisions in the show running is one reason I didn't continue watching and it appears as though many other people agreed as it was canceled.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 minutes ago, Knoell said:

Rafe changed Robert Jordan's story is a factual statement.

Rafe as a figurehead of all the influences on the show, from writers to producers to Amazon executives to the Light knows who, yet you lay any blame squarely on the Rafe. And you are so interested in WoT that you have 9 posts. Obviously we can barely stop you discussing your love of the books.

 

This is emblematic of the personal attacks on Rafe in lieu of actual contentual criticisms. Efforts were made to make a sprawling story with nearly 3,000 named characters and several abrupt changes in narrative, and a heavy reliance on internal POV, into a TV series of 8 seasons with 8 episodes. 

 

Your subjective opinion is it wasn't done well. And you pretend this is an objective fact. Not something that lends confidence to the validity of your subjective opinion. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Knoell said:

being objectively good in my opinion.

You keep using these words - I don't think they mean what you think they do.

[DigificWriter]

 

2 minutes ago, Knoell said:

it appears as though many other people agreed as it was canceled

 

The viewing numbers were there, but ultimately not in high enough numbers to counter the cost (and I'm not entirely sure that they could have been high enough to counter the cost in today's TV and Streaming climate, unfortunately).

[king of nowhere]

7 hours ago, SinisterDeath said:

 

It's the hyperbolic and vitriolic language that has run rampant online.

Been to Facebook or Reddit recently?

 

When you have to sit here, and approve or deny spam bot accounts every day, and then you get a bunch of new accounts all in one day because news like this drops, and they're all saying the same type of comments like they're all coming from the same social media engagement bot farm over in India/Russia that's plagued every social media site ever?

A bit off topic, but I have to ask.

why would the bot farms ever target discussion on a fantasy show?

 

as far as i'm aware, the bot farms are used to try and influence politics. they could be used for marketing, or other reasons involving big money or power.

but why would anyone have any interest in having the bots spam hate comments on the wheel of time discussions? where are the interests?

 

I am not doubting your word. if you have seen those bots, you have. I'm just confused on who sent them here...

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

Not that I know anything about it, but it seems apparent that there has been a Russian attempt to back up any right-wing ideology to sow dissension and stoke the tensions in Western society. 

 

So I could believe the stuff about gender issues in WoT would attract them.

[Maximillion]

21 hours ago, divica said:

I am kind of surprised that rafe and the writers are getting some support instead of serious hate.

It seems clear that most people agree that the show is being cancelled because of season 1 and rafe and his team are the only culprits of a series of really bad choices that ended up dooming the series.

 

Rafe Judkins is the single biggest reason the show failed.

As soon as the show started off with 'the dragon can be a man or a woman', it was doomed.

Absolutely ridiculous episodes like the one focused on Stepin and all the crying was a pure act of self indulgence on the part of Judkins.

That said - it did improve - and it's a shame it was cancelled.

The only light at the end of the tunnel is that ending it before it really got properly started - and the fact it really didn't capture the story at all - gives some hope (not much) that someone else will try this and hopefully do a better job.

[Maximillion]

9 hours ago, Elessar said:

First let me say, I am in the ‘I love the Wheel of Time (WOT) books-thought the tv series was disappointing and gradually lost interest in it but was glad it was giving other fans enjoyment’-camp. Since the tv series now is cancelled by Amazon Prime I will post my reflections here in what will be a very long post. It will be critical but is not meant as a rant, simply my honest reflections and I hope people will bear with me.

 

I have lived with WOT since the early 1990s and have roleplayed with characters from the Wheel of Time universe for 25+ years so WOT means a lot to me. Robert Jordan’s masterful saga is among the best books in fantasy I have ever read and since I have been so involved with this universe for so many years it is special to me to a greater extent than say Game of Thrones/A Song of Ice and Fire which I also love.

 

When I first heard they were going to make a tv series of the WOT I was struck with a mixture of feelings. Joy for I thought this amazing fantasy saga deserved the tv series treatment although I never thought it would happen due to the enormous source material, but also kinda dread because I feared a tv series would never be able to do this majestic saga and story justice. But I wanted to give it a chance and was excited like most fans.

 

As I watched season 1, however, my joy diminshed and much of the reason was the huge changes from the books. We all know some narrative changes need to be made when a book is made into a tv series or film. Not everything transfers well from the book page to the tv screen. Also some things need be cut and simplified. That is all fine. But the question is, what do you cut and what do you change. I thought there were far too many changes to season 1 compared to The Eye of the World and some of these changes were to me unfathomable and deeply serious.

 

The worst mistake was to create the illusion that the Dragon Reborn could be either male or female. In what world was this a good choice? The whole danger-element with the Dragon Reborn being male with his Saidin and fears he will destroy the world in madness is gone if the Dragon Reborn is a female. You just cannot make such a radical change if you care for and are faithful to the source material regardless of wanting to keep excitement as to the reveal for viewers (and be politically correct). Some changes you just don’t make. It is disrespectful and damaging to the integrity of Robert Jordan’s vision and books.

 

The opening with the running man chased by Red Sisters was a total misfire. Firstly a viewer who never read the books will not have a clue as to what is going on, it is just confusing. One needs some backstory to understand the madness and that there is just one person running and not two. And who the riders are. I cannot fathom that they thought this was a good decision, especially since they had not introduced the concept of the One Power, Saidin and Saidar.

 

What they should have done instead? I see several options. To stay faithful to the books they could/should have had the epic opening from the Prologue in the Eye of the World, with Ishamael and Lews Therin. It might have seemed a little strange to viewers not having read the books but would have been a hell of a lot better than what they gave us. A second option would have been to start as with Rand and Tam in the books. A third option, if they needed something more exciting/dramatic, would have been to have started with a Lord of the Rings-type beginning with a voiceover speaking and showing events happening in the Age of Legends, the War of Power and thereby giving a proper backstory to the saga. Three minutes of this could have done the job, so a solid opening. 

 

And if neither of these options were on the table, then they could have started with the dramatic Logain-opening from ep 4 season 1 (the war in Ghealdan in which Logain is battling his way to the King) which would have been impactful and brought interest and also be a red herring for a twist as to the Dragon Reborn. Quite frankly, all those four options would have been better in my eyes.

 

Dropping Caemlyn was another mistake in my view, it was an interesting and valuable and sweet moment in the book when Rand sees the captured false Dragon and when he falls off the wall and is met by Elayne with the subsequent “foretelling” by Elaida. Adding a wife for Perrin? Really? And making all the boys less innocent? Next, portraying the Forsaken Ishamael as a calm philosophical man looking no more dangerous than your friendly neighbour was another unexplicable change for me. We remember him from the books, a half-mad dangerous character and evil villain and quite frankly having him appear in a hooded dark cloak kinda like the Nazgul in the Lord of the Rings say with the hint or red eyes from the hood, that would have made it work a lot better for me. 

 

The ending at the Eye is also revisionist, changing everything, and disappointed me. Cutting the Forsaken from 13 to 8 as I got the impression was another blunder. The number 13 has important significance in Robert Jordan’s saga as we know, so of course there should have been 13 Forsaken in the tv series even if we only saw say 7 or 8 of them acting on screen (we would know the others were present somewhere in the lands).

 

It is a question of being faithful to the important things, the characters in the books, how they look and how they behave. Important scenes and happenings. That is what we expect and what we deserve. If you change too much it becomes fan fiction or the story seen through a Portal Stone World, while it is Robert Jordan’s Wheel of Time world we want to see. Game of Thrones was much more faithful to the books especially in seasons 1 and 2 and as we know, the more you change at the beginning, the more you need to change later. So never change too much at the start. As for adding some things, though I want to stay faithful to the story I can accept some additions if they make the story even better on screen. Adding Arwen to the brilliant Lord of the Rings movies was such an example. An example in WOT is the moment with Nynaeve and Logain when Saidar blossoms in her. That was an awesome scene visually and I enjoyed it even though I knew it never happened in the books.

 

As for seasons 2 and 3, though there was better production quality and improvements, there were still too many changes for me with some of them more impactful than others. Having Rand seek out Logain in season 2 which never happened in the books. It felt jarring to me. And Min manipulated by Liandrin and then Ishamael? This is totally different from the books. And Ishamael working with the Sanchean? From the books we know it was an other Forsaken who did that. Not to mention Moiraine’s stilling and her arc and depiction which did not sit well with me, neither Ishamael’s arc. Sometimes I scratched my head in bewilderment. Lanfear as an innkeeper in Cairhien? Seriously!? Can anyone who read the books imagine proud, glory-hunting, classy in a dark way Lanfear as an innkeeper? The premise is preposterous. Make her an advisor to a King, someone who whispers in the King’s ears, or say a Noblewoman. But innkeeper? What were they thinking? Other changes I could mention too, several from season 3, but I think you get the point by now.

 

Let me add that I do think Rafe had the heart in the right place and wanted to make the tv series worthy of Robert Jordan’s books. He made a great effort and some book fans did indeed enjoy the tv series despite its many differences (they were able to look at the two mediums as separate something I never managed). Personally though I think his creative vision and choices were often misplaced and what he gave us may have worked for non-book readers and some book fans but not for those of us who wanted a faithful and worthy adaptation of Robert Jordan’s story.

 

As mentioned, I feared they would not be able to do this majestic story justice simply because there are 14 books (+prequel) to incorporate and these books are thick as bricks and filled with massive storytelling. Even if you cut away the surplus descriptions etc and less important subplots etc you are left with say at least 10 large books telling the main story in all its brilliant intricacy and glory. When I heard how few episodes would be in each season I thought this will never work. For the showrunners to do The Wheel of Time justice one would need 10 seasons of 12 episodes in my view and I quickly understood that would never be possible, partly because it would cost too much and partly because it would be impossible to keep hold on actors, producers, other show workers etc for 15 years.

 

I therefore thought it more realistic that the tv series would get 6/7 seasons which would make for a much simplified story but where they might at least be able to complete Rand’s arc from the start to the end. That the tv series now only got 3 seasons making the story nowhere near finished was surprising to me since I had the impression the tv series did quite well for Amazon and I was pretty certain it would at least get a couple more seasons. I am sorry for the fans of the tv series and disappointed with Amazon, although personally I lost interest in the tv series as it went along and find much more enjoyment in re-reading the brilliant books and having much fun roleplaying in Robert Jordan’s universe (PS. I recommend roleplay-writing at DM, in earlier years it was very popular here at the site but in recent years interest in roleplay has unfortunately dwindled, so join in and have fun!)

 

I recommend the fantastic The Wheel of Time-books for any tv series viewer who wants to dive into this fascinating world. However, people are different and some will prefer the books, some the tv series, and some will enjoy both. Perhaps it was too ambitious of Amazon to try and bring the massive The Wheel of Time to the tv screen, but they deserve credit for the guts to try even if they lost faith half-way through.

 

AI is the hope for this story to be brought to screen.  Maybe in 5-10 years.

Make 200 episodes in a few months.

Make it an animation.

 

I agree with many of your points.

I have already mentioned the Dragon potentially being a man or a woman - that was just ridiculous and I believe done for stupid reasons.

 

I did want to mention the foresaken - I highly doubt a non book reader would have any clue on who or what they were from the show.  Just badly set up, badly introduced and badly developed.

 

I agree that a story telling narrative at the start could have set up the series much better than they did.

 

The biggest issues of all, though, was not making Rand the key theme of the story and making a Lan a crybaby bumbling idiot.

 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

AI is the hope for this story to be brought to screen.

I too am looking forward to 8 fingered Rand brandishing an actual heron as he battles Ishamael on the Isle of Skye. 

[Maximillion]

2 minutes ago, Elder_Haman said:

I too am looking forward to 8 fingered Rand brandishing an actual heron as he battles Ishamael on the Isle of Skye. 

 

AI film making will advance at an incredible pace over the next decade.

Having said that, an 8 fingered Rand would be better than what Judkins served up for the character.

 

Edited May 24 by Maximillion

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

I have already mentioned the Dragon potentially being a man or a woman - that was just ridiculous and I believe done for stupid reasons.

Certainly true that unreliable narrators were a technique that Jordan never used. Absolutely not a theme in the books. Only the Dragon being a woman would have changed the narrative, it could be easily argued that the possibility (even if false) of the Dragon being a woman could have increased the dread waiting for him to be reborn and increased the distrust of the Aes Sedai. 

 

Just because you don't understand something does not make it stupid. 

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

an 8 fingered Rand would be better than what Judkins served up for the character.

Hard disagree. Josha’s portrayal of Rand was one of the best parts of the show for me. 

[Maximillion]

1 minute ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Certainly true that unreliable narrators were a technique that Jordan never used. Absolutely not a theme in the books. Only the Dragon being a woman would have changed the narrative, it could be easily argued that the possibility (even if false) of the Dragon being a woman could have increased the dread waiting for him to be reborn and increased the distrust of the Aes Sedai. 

 

Just because you don't understand something does not make it stupid. 

 

Lots of massive diversions from the books can be argued as being OK.

Doesn't make any of them sensible.

IMO, the series needed to grip the book fans from the beginning.  It didn't.  It created unnecessary controversy and backlash.