The Show Has Been Cancelled

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

Lots of massive diversions from the books can be argued as being OK.

Doesn't make any of them sensible.

IMO, the series needed to grip the book fans from the beginning.  It didn't.  It created unnecessary controversy and backlash.

IMO, you don't understand a lot about the books or the show. And your categorical claims about "book fans" only make that crystal clear.

 

The statements you are making are demonstrably false. You did not like the show. A sizable portion of the fanbase of the books did not like the show. A sizable portion did. I did. Stop claiming you are representative of "book fans" and I am not. 

[Maximillion]

11 minutes ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

IMO, you don't understand a lot about the books or the show. And your categorical claims about "book fans" only make that crystal clear.

 

The statements you are making are demonstrably false. You did not like the show. A sizable portion of the fanbase of the books did not like the show. A sizable portion did. I did. Stop claiming you are representative of "book fans" and I am not. 

 

Not a claim that I made.

Though you have just made the claim yourself.

 

For me, I actually liked season 3 and also thought season 2 was better than season 1.

It's very clear, though, that season 1 turned off a lot of book fans and the show never recovered.

In fact, over a billion minutes watched for Episode 1 season 1.  It almost immediately halved and by the end of season 3 was only slightly more the 1/3rd of the minutes watched at the start of the show.

 

All a bit moot now - it's cancelled and its a shame, but many people predicted it would be, including many book fans.

 

Edited May 24 by Maximillion

[CaddySedai]

21 hours ago, zacz1987 said:

I hope this opens up the possibility of an animated series in a few years that is more book accurate.

 

It will not. If the show doesn’t get picked up then you can kiss The Wheel of Time goodbye in the sense that no new content will be created. 

 

The rights are owned by some of the worst IP squatters in existence and there is no point in producing content in order to lose money. 

 

That was my argument all along. I was worried that the dissenting voices (whilst valid) would help to turn away the casually interested. Though how much is speculative. I felt the series quality improved so the inverse viewership curve does seem to align with exterior pressure. 

 

I kinda hope someone like apple or HBO gives us a shot. Even if going with HBO would mean that Lan’s little sword will be in every other shot. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

1 minute ago, Maximillion said:

 

Not a claim that I made.

Though you have just made the claim yourself.

 

For me, I actually liked season 3 and also thought season 2 was better than season 1.

It's very clear, though, that season 1 turned off a lot of book fans and the show never recovered.

in fact over a billion minutes watched for Episode 1 season 1.  It almost immediately halved and by the end of season 3 was only slightly more the 1/3rd of the minutes watched at the start of the show.

 

And you can prove that the drop off in viewing minutes is due to "massive diversions from the books" and not any other reason? For example, the necessity of condensing the story into 8 series of 8 episodes. And how do you differentiate between "book fans" and casual viewers on Prime?

 

You seem to be making a lot of unsubstantiated claims.

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

3 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

that Lan’s little sword will be in every other shot.

Who said it was little? I always imagined it was expressionless, lol.

[Knoell]

2 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

You keep using these words - I don't think they mean what you think they do.

👍🙄

 

2 hours ago, HeavyHalfMoonBlade said:

Rafe as a figurehead of all the influences on the show, from writers to producers to Amazon executives to the Light knows who, yet you lay any blame squarely on the Rafe. And you are so interested in WoT that you have 9 posts. Obviously we can barely stop you discussing your love of the books.

 

This is emblematic of the personal attacks on Rafe in lieu of actual contentual criticisms. Efforts were made to make a sprawling story with nearly 3,000 named characters and several abrupt changes in narrative, and a heavy reliance on internal POV, into a TV series of 8 seasons with 8 episodes. 

 

Your subjective opinion is it wasn't done well. And you pretend this is an objective fact. Not something that lends confidence to the validity of your subjective opinion. 

 

If number of people posting on this forum is emblematic of the number of people who love WoT then the book is in trouble but we all know that's not true.

 

Also even the people who like the show admit the first season wasn't done well which was a critical moment that likely damned the show.

Edited May 24 by Knoell

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

The first series had its issues, undoubtedly. That did not appear to be the gist of your argument.

 

You appear to be ignoring my points and doubling down on your unsubstantiated claims.

 

I don't particularly care - a TV show of my favourite books has been cancelled. The fact that people like you think this is a good thing does not bother me hugely. As soon as you represent your opinion as fact rather than opinion it clearly shows that you have no idea what you are talking about.

[SinisterDeath]

1 hour ago, king of nowhere said:

A bit off topic, but I have to ask.

why would the bot farms ever target discussion on a fantasy show?

 

as far as i'm aware, the bot farms are used to try and influence politics. they could be used for marketing, or other reasons involving big money or power.

but why would anyone have any interest in having the bots spam hate comments on the wheel of time discussions? where are the interests?

 

I am not doubting your word. if you have seen those bots, you have. I'm just confused on who sent them here...

Everything is politics and political.

Look at all the key words used when describing why Marvel or Disney movies are all bad these days. 

 

There's a goal to be spread online by spreading a shared message/idealogy that constantly spreads the same rhetoric.

 

Is every single one of those a bot?

No.

But could those have been influenced by bots via Facebook and Reddit before coming here?

Absolutely.

[SinisterDeath]

25 minutes ago, CaddySedai said:

Even if going with HBO would mean that Lan’s little sword will be in every other shot. 

[HeavyHalfMoonBlade]

He's a grower, not a shower! Stop judging!

[Samt]

1 hour ago, CaddySedai said:

 

It will not. If the show doesn’t get picked up then you can kiss The Wheel of Time goodbye in the sense that no new content will be created. 

 

The rights are owned by some of the worst IP squatters in existence and there is no point in producing content in order to lose money. 

 

That was my argument all along. I was worried that the dissenting voices (whilst valid) would help to turn away the casually interested. Though how much is speculative. I felt the series quality improved so the inverse viewership curve does seem to align with exterior pressure. 

 

I kinda hope someone like apple or HBO gives us a shot. Even if going with HBO would mean that Lan’s little sword will be in every other shot. 

The problem is that season 3 can’t stand on its own.  Even if it’s really good, non-book readers won’t be able to step in without watching the first two seasons. The show diverged so far from the books that even book readers might not really be able to follow season 3 without at least some recap on how it has diverged.  
 

This alone accounts for the fact that viewership decreased even as production quality arguably improved.  There are just naturally more people that watched season 1 and then stopped than there are people that dropped into season 3 without watching the first 2.

[notpropaganda73]

I think the focus on the “Dragon could be a woman” thing is a bit misguided - the issue in S1 was that the Dragon was a mystery - because they did not execute the mystery plot well and in doing so all the characters suffered in S1.

 

My frustration generally with the show has been a lack of depth and very inconsistent writing. I remember Rafe commenting about the Dragon being a woman line, saying that they felt for the show they could introduce the idea that the prophecies are not so certain, that Aes Sedai knowledge was not so reliable. I thought this was a great idea with potential in television, with Black Ajah shenanigans and Verin especially becoming a key character with her Brown knowledge and true identity. 
 

But it was a comment in an interview, and nothing within the show really felt like this was something being truly explored, at least to me.

 

When you look at the writing in Andor, and how for example the Ghorman plot in S2. Without spoilers but I was more invested in this Star Wars planet and their culture and story in 6 episodes than really anything the WoT show achieved in 3 seasons. Rhuidean was the closest really.

 

WoT always felt spread too thin in each series, and it’s no coincidence in my opinion that the strongest scenes and episodes are those that focus in on particular characters or arcs.

 

Again, sad to see it cancelled. Josha became Rand to me, and I love Zoe as Nynaeve as well.

[SinisterDeath]

37 minutes ago, Samt said:

The problem is that season 3 can’t stand on its own.  Even if it’s really good, non-book readers won’t be able to step in without watching the first two seasons. The show diverged so far from the books that even book readers might not really be able to follow season 3 without at least some recap on how it has diverged.  
 

This alone accounts for the fact that viewership decreased even as production quality arguably improved.  There are just naturally more people that watched season 1 and then stopped than there are people that dropped into season 3 without watching the first 2.

Would you say that the "Invincible" Show is arguably better then Wheel of Time?

[Samt]

4 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

Would you say that the "Invincible" Show is arguably better then Wheel of Time?

Never even heard of it.

[divica]

10 minutes ago, notpropaganda73 said:

I think the focus on the “Dragon could be a woman” thing is a bit misguided - the issue in S1 was that the Dragon was a mystery - because they did not execute the mystery plot well and in doing so all the characters suffered in S1.

 

My frustration generally with the show has been a lack of depth and very inconsistent writing. I remember Rafe commenting about the Dragon being a woman line, saying that they felt for the show they could introduce the idea that the prophecies are not so certain, that Aes Sedai knowledge was not so reliable. I thought this was a great idea with potential in television, with Black Ajah shenanigans and Verin especially becoming a key character with her Brown knowledge and true identity. 
 

But it was a comment in an interview, and nothing within the show really felt like this was something being truly explored, at least to me.

 

 

for that to work nobody could know anything about the dragon, the war and a lot of other things that they talk about in s1 and are almost common knowledge. 

At most I could see the kids thinking that anybody could be the dragon and then moiraine correcting them and telling them a bit about history. THAT could have worked.

 

ps I actually think that the idea that things could be less certain is actually terrible because on tv and with their time contraints things need to be clearer and easy to explain. make the lore more convuluted doesn't seem smart to me

Edited May 25 by divica

[SinisterDeath]

4 minutes ago, Samt said:

Never even heard of it.

It's Amazon's other big Show (Animated), aside from Reacher.

 

It also fell off the streaming charts around episode 4 and 5.

(I hate these AI overviews, but the prior weeks nielsen data is gone, and hell if I can find the prior weeks charts that show those episodes of Invincible... This was weeks before WoT Aired.)

[divica]

after all this talk about season 1, one thing I would like to know is if non book readers were disapointed that the dragon was rand instead of egg or nyn.

 

Because I can also see people quiting the show because they find out that the main character is going to be a guy that they didn't like.

[divica]

10 minutes ago, SinisterDeath said:

It's Amazon's other big Show (Animated), aside from Reacher.

 

It also fell off the streaming charts around episode 4 and 5.

(I hate these AI overviews, but the prior weeks nielsen data is gone, and hell if I can find the prior weeks charts that show those episodes of Invincible... This was weeks before WoT Aired.)

amazon has other big shows like the boys, jack ryan, rings of power and probably other shows I am not remembering.

 

But I would say that they failed in their fantasy shows. for some reason the quality of rop and wot is much worse than several of their shows that strangely don't seem to need to follow any agenda.

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, divica said:

for some reason the quality of rop and wot is much worse than several of their shows that strangely don't seem to need to follow any agenda.

I wonder how much of an anchor RoP was on WoT. Rings of Power is far worse from a writing/story telling standpoint. But they’re stuck with 3 more seasons. 
 

Since they have to spend on RoP, they had to find other places to save. 

[Blackbyrd]

On 5/23/2025 at 3:37 PM, Jaysen Gore said:

I feel sorry for the true fans of the show, and for the rest of us who had new WoT Content to debate and discuss and speculate about, on this forum and elsewhere.

 

I am somewhat surprised, mainly since the streaming services never struck me as particularly money smart. But in a lot of ways, this was doomed by a reverse slog - instead of being good through great with a slog in the middle, the slog on this one is right up front, and the show never really recovered.

 

There's no point in pointing the finger at any one thing in particular - the pandemic, the actor switch, the lack of financial and time commitment, Rafe's personal agenda, the basic Hollywood disdain for genre heroic fiction, the impossibility of satisfying the core audience, too complicated a world to make clear for a new audience, the author's over reliance on similar concepts from recent classics (LoTR, Dune), the fact that it wasn't similar enough to others (GoT), Trump's external production tariffs,  None of which changes the fact that if it were better, it would have survived, but it didn't.

 

In my 50 years of life, I can count the number of genre projects that caught the popular zeitgeist on one hand (Star Wars 4-6, LoTR, Matrix 1, GoT 1-4, MCU Phase 1-3) and maybe another handful that were both critically great  in spots and commercially successful (Jurassic Park, BSG, Buffy, Deadpool, the Expanse, some Star Trek, others) But history is full of failed projects that didn't land right, or didn't find an audience; shows with interesting premises that weren't given time to grow; shows that exceeded the abilities of their talent to deliver. Shows that had a good idea that couldn't sustain a movie, let alone a series.

 

thanks to the community for sometimes making the site sometimes more enjoyable that the show, and to the moderators for keeping it going. 

 

now we wait for the next turning of the wheel, and enjoy the books whenever we want.

this mostly summarizes my feeling. It is the kind of thing that needed to really hit the ground running, and it didn’t really achieve a consistent evenness in all aspects until season 3. 
 

Two aspects of the show that worked well for me whenever they came up were when they leaned into the horror aspects and I actually thought any time they used comedy it matched

quite well to the books. 
 

three aspects that didn’t work for me was the pacing, the Game Thrones effect, and the failure to hit many  of the ‘!!!’ moments from the books. 
 

If i blame Rafe for antthing it’s not being managing the budget to make sure they delivered on some power moments like Falme or the Eye. The producers probably hamstrung the show by wanting to get into all the politicking instead or leaning into the horror. The pacing probably related to a clash between writers and producers. 
 

A sad day to be a WoT fan. Anyone petty or belligerent enough to think otherwise or throw blame on some ‘woke’ agenda generated by a single person rather than the unseen hand of producers who likely don’t read books at all just feels looks cynical. 
 

high point; Rhuidean

low point: Agmars ummm we’ll call it charge- to change into his armor or something. I will always lol and smh at that one

Agelmar

 

Edited May 25 by Blackbyrd

[divica]

Just now, Elder_Haman said:

I wonder how much of an anchor RoP was on WoT. Rings of Power is far worse from a writing/story telling standpoint. But they’re stuck with 3 more seasons. 
 

Since they have to spend on RoP, they had to find other places to save. 

acording to what an user above said they didn't have to pay for wot while rop cost them a lot of money.

so if they had to decide between 1 of the shows it makes sense that it is rop.

 

but if wot was profitable I don't think the show would be canceled. which is also a bit strange because besides scenarios and rosamund pike everything else in the show should be cheap (I think the weaves special effects should actually be pretty cheap because there are several chinese dramas that have simillar special effects in most episodes these days)

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, divica said:

acording to what an user above said they didn't have to pay for wot

Yeah. That’s just wrong. Amazon had to pay Sony for the production rights. 

[Vambram]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2025/05/23/some-very-bad-news-for-wheel-of-time-season-4-as-amazon-does-the-unthinkable/

 

 

Here's something that the author of this Forbes.com article wrote which I find a lot of agreement with:

 

And while it’s obvious that the books and the show diverged in too many ways to list, I appreciated that the third season actually made for great TV. This is in stark contrast to the steaming pile of orc manure that is Amazon’s other big fantasy show, The Rings Of Power.

 

For whatever reason – pride, perhaps – Amazon has renewed Rings Of Power despite its massive decline in viewership, while cancelling the wildly superior Wheel Of Time. Truly, I will never understand the decisions these streaming executives make.

 

Sure, there are many ways that Wheel Of Time could have been better. While there was no feasible way to stick to the letter of the source material, a lot of the changes were definitely questionable, even in Season 3. Obviously, it would have been great if the first season had been stronger so that more fans stuck around as the show improved. But the cast was really starting to come into its own by Season 3, and all the talented actors and design team that made Season 3 the strongest yet deserved a chance at making Season 4 and beyond. Not finishing the story is a real slap in the face to all the loyal fans who did stick around.

Perhaps live-action is not the best way to adapt these long, ultimately very expensive, fantasy epics. An animated Wheel Of Time, for instance, could stick closer to the source material while costing a fraction of what a live-action series costs. Amazon’s best fantasy series, The Legend Of Vox Machina, proves that you can do a lot more with fantasy when it’s animated while still capturing all the life and action and magic of the story.

 

[Blueberry]

On a positive note, a video on tiktok about the cancellation has getten over 46k likes and growing. Lots more videos pouring out about it, too. Primes page is being flooded with requests to return the show in their comments. It seems like a lot of people who watched the show first and loved it are on that app, and they are vexed about it. Many are saying they would rather WoT than Rings of Power 😳

 

They're mass sharing the renew WoT website to keep updated, and talking about the blog post on dragonmount a lot too! They are saying stuff like "link with me sisters" 😭 We might even see an influx of fans from there to here. 

 

The video with 46k likes: 

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZMS2ffeH5/

 

[orbops]

For those people who are glad WoT has been cancelled, remember that the chances of another WoT live action adaptation in our lifetimes is nil. And the idea of an more faithful animated series is unrealistic. No streamer would want to create a series in this streaming environment that lasts more than 3-4 seasons with about 8 episodes each.

 

This generation has grown up on Tik Tok and YouTube and their attention span is geared towards content less than 5 minutes. When I worked at DirecTV about 10 years ago, streaming was brand new, and even back then the content providers used a 5 minute retention as a way of counting viewers. They didn't even try to track the number of viewers that watched an entire episode or movie because the statistics showed a huge drop off in viewership after the 5 minute mark. Even Netflix' annual report on viewership shows the "runtime" which is the average minutes viewed, and the huge majority of all their content are < 5 minutes.

Edited May 25 by orbops