WoT Season 2 - I WATCHED ALL THE EPISODES TOPIC

[swollymammoth]

I just don't get it. I don't think I've ever seen a show that was as ashamed of its source material as Wheel of Prime. Even the Shannara Chronicles wasn't this bad. That show was just trying to aim its source material at teens. It wasn't constantly apologizing for its source material the way that Wheel of Prime does. 

 

It seems like every other decision Rafe made was to fix something that he considered morally objectionable about the books. Too much toxic masculinity? Not enough representation? Not enough sex? Gendered magic system? A prophecy specifically dealing with a man? Not enough focus on the female characters early in the series? Slightly outdated interactions between men and women? No problem. I'll fix that for ya. "I love the books, but you know what? They'd have been better if I could go back in time and write them myself," is Rafe's entire ethos. 

 

What Rafe has done to Wheel of Time is nothing short of blatant bowlderization for the 21st century, and like always there's a loyal audience of yuppies eager to lap up anything that reinforces their myopic worldview even if it doesn't have an ounce of artistic integrity. 

 

MEANWHILE Netflix's One Piece adaptation is based on a property that is 1091 Chapters long and has been running for over 20 years and yet somehow managed to do a mostly accurate adaptation of the first several arcs without resorting to Rafe's "We have to adapt the entire series" BS that he used to justify the massive deviations he made right off the bat. And fans love it! It has a 95% audience score based on over 5000 reviews on RottenTomatoes. Wheel of Prime Season 2 can't match that even after Season 1 alienated everyone who might leave a negative review on Season 2 anyway. 

[Elder_Haman]

2 minutes ago, swollymammoth said:

I just don't get it. I don't think I've ever seen a show that was as ashamed of its source material as Wheel of Prime. Even the Shannara Chronicles wasn't this bad. That show was just trying to aim its source material at teens. It wasn't constantly apologizing for its source material the way that Wheel of Prime does. 

 

It seems like every other decision Rafe made was to fix something that he considered morally objectionable about the books. Too much toxic masculinity? Not enough representation? Not enough sex? Gendered magic system? A prophecy specifically dealing with a man? Not enough focus on the female characters early in the series? Slightly outdated interactions between men and women? No problem. I'll fix that for ya. "I love the books, but you know what? They'd have been better if I could go back in time and write them myself," is Rafe's entire ethos. 

 

What Rafe has done to Wheel of Time is nothing short of blatant bowlderization for the 21st century, and like always there's a loyal audience of yuppies eager to lap up anything that reinforces their myopic worldview even if it doesn't have an ounce of artistic integrity. 

 

MEANWHILE Netflix's One Piece adaptation is based on a property that is 1091 Chapters long and has been running for over 20 years and yet somehow managed to do a mostly accurate adaptation of the first several arcs without resorting to Rafe's "We have to adapt the entire series" BS that he used to justify the massive deviations he made right off the bat. And fans love it! It has a 95% audience score based on over 5000 reviews on RottenTomatoes. Wheel of Prime Season 2 can't match that even after Season 1 alienated everyone who might leave a negative review on Season 2 anyway. 

So why watch? Or is your goal here just to gripe. 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/2/2023 at 12:16 AM, zacz1987 said:

I enjoyed it much more than I did with season 1. It seems to be much of an improvement. I did still have a few minor issues however.

 

I found that there did not seem to be enough Aes Sedai walking around the tower scenes. Other than the main 5 or 6 sisters we don't see anyone else, they should have have multiple extras walking around in colourful Aes Sedai dresses. At this point in the series before the major event happens the tower should be quite busy and lived in.

 

Loial looked worse than in season 1 and his personality etc seemed to have digressed. While I didn't agree with his look in season 1 they had his personality down pat but he no longer seems to be the long winded slow talking character any more. They also did a poor job making him look tall, In season 1 they managed to make him look larger using camera angles but in Season 2 they have scenes where he is standing next to Perrin and Perrin is taller.

 

I also found the time skip to be a bit too much. We don't see how Loial recovers from his stab wound - its like it never happened. We don't see how Rand and Selene meet or how Perrin ended up being recruited into the hunt for the horn. Hopefully they have a flashback in future episodes which links the seasons together but I'm not hopeful.

In the books even with the tower full RJ describes whole wings that sit empty, I always pictured the tower like this, Aes Sedai bumping into one or 2 while strolling but not 10-20 at once. Most are either out in the world or busy remember. 

 

On 9/2/2023 at 2:28 PM, swollymammoth said:

I just don't get it. I don't think I've ever seen a show that was as ashamed of its source material as Wheel of Prime. Even the Shannara Chronicles wasn't this bad. That show was just trying to aim its source material at teens. It wasn't constantly apologizing for its source material the way that Wheel of Prime does. 

 

It seems like every other decision Rafe made was to fix something that he considered morally objectionable about the books. Too much toxic masculinity? Not enough representation? Not enough sex? Gendered magic system? A prophecy specifically dealing with a man? Not enough focus on the female characters early in the series? Slightly outdated interactions between men and women? No problem. I'll fix that for ya. "I love the books, but you know what? They'd have been better if I could go back in time and write them myself," is Rafe's entire ethos. 

 

What Rafe has done to Wheel of Time is nothing short of blatant bowlderization for the 21st century, and like always there's a loyal audience of yuppies eager to lap up anything that reinforces their myopic worldview even if it doesn't have an ounce of artistic integrity. 

 

MEANWHILE Netflix's One Piece adaptation is based on a property that is 1091 Chapters long and has been running for over 20 years and yet somehow managed to do a mostly accurate adaptation of the first several arcs without resorting to Rafe's "We have to adapt the entire series" BS that he used to justify the massive deviations he made right off the bat. And fans love it! It has a 95% audience score based on over 5000 reviews on RottenTomatoes. Wheel of Prime Season 2 can't match that even after Season 1 alienated everyone who might leave a negative review on Season 2 anyway. 

Fundamentally disagree as a hardcore book fan I think the story being told here is in some ways better then the early books, which, let’s be fair are not RJ’s real voice and consist of the main characters going from A to B to do a thing then to C to do another thing, usually chasing down something, someone or trying to run away. 
 

The fundamental spirit of WOT is there and is being told in a way that works on the small screen with limited real time to tell the story. The main characters are all emotionally in the same place as they are in the books at this point and are on the starting point of journeys we can see and match up to the books. This is far superior to Shannara, it is also far better than rings of power, as a LOTR fan I hated what they did with the lore there, even as I understood the reasons. Non of the lore or main story themes in WOT have been drastically changed the way you seem to make out. 

[Pandemonium]

On 9/1/2023 at 2:35 PM, Storeebooq said:

I hope we get more cold openings like we did in Season 1, with the glimpses into past or other moments. 

I liked the cold openings, but I think they might have also confused alot of the non book audience in season 1.  I like the idea of occasional cold openings too. Now that alot of the characters have been introduced it will be easier to do some of the cold openings without making everything so disjointed.  season 1 had the all the non related cold openings and then didn't give enough time for character development so everything felt rushed and unfocused.

 

I think just a couple cold openings per season may suffice now, as they can easily do flashbacks at other points in the episode

 

However, we definitely gotta get the LTT and Ishamael dragonmount cold opening, hopefully by next season 

 

On 9/2/2023 at 2:28 PM, swollymammoth said:

I just don't get it. I don't think I've ever seen a show that was as ashamed of its source material as Wheel of Prime. Even the Shannara Chronicles wasn't this bad. That show was just trying to aim its source material at teens. It wasn't constantly apologizing for its source material the way that Wheel of Prime does. 

 

It seems like every other decision Rafe made was to fix something that he considered morally objectionable about the books. Too much toxic masculinity? Not enough representation? Not enough sex? Gendered magic system? A prophecy specifically dealing with a man? Not enough focus on the female characters early in the series? Slightly outdated interactions between men and women? No problem. I'll fix that for ya. "I love the books, but you know what? They'd have been better if I could go back in time and write them myself," is Rafe's entire ethos. 

 

What Rafe has done to Wheel of Time is nothing short of blatant bowlderization for the 21st century, and like always there's a loyal audience of yuppies eager to lap up anything that reinforces their myopic worldview even if it doesn't have an ounce of artistic integrity. 

 

MEANWHILE Netflix's One Piece adaptation is based on a property that is 1091 Chapters long and has been running for over 20 years and yet somehow managed to do a mostly accurate adaptation of the first several arcs without resorting to Rafe's "We have to adapt the entire series" BS that he used to justify the massive deviations he made right off the bat. And fans love it! It has a 95% audience score based on over 5000 reviews on RottenTomatoes. Wheel of Prime Season 2 can't match that even after Season 1 alienated everyone who might leave a negative review on Season 2 anyway. 

I'll have to check out one piece.  As for Shanara chronicles, wheel of time adaption is way better than that.  Season 2 has made some big improvements and I really am getting the great hunt vibe strong and clear.  not everybody likes  every show or adaptation, but I think some of the trolls arguments are losing their bite on season 2.  I will wait till episode 8 for final judgment, but this is definitely better than Rings of Power and maybe be up there with Witcher and GoT now

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Pandemonium said:

Season 2 has made some big improvements

It really has. Better writing (which clearly benefits from the longer run time), better CGI, more real feeling to the world. 

 

After 3 episodes, we really know who our main characters are now as people and what their challenges are: Perrin (to become the wolf or not?), Nynaeve (to learn control), Egwene (to grow into her own power), Mat (to stay true to his friends), and Rand (obvious). These internal struggles are the same ones faced by the characters in the books.

 

Plot wise, everyone is mostly where they are supposed to be, and the climactic battle of tGH has already been foreshadowed. We have evil everywhere, but are not yet clear on whether it is a monolithic evil or not and there are signs of Padan Fain doing his own thing.

 

The pacing is pretty good and I suspect it will pick up a bit now that the pieces are all on the board. 

 

[kujo]

Not sure if there are many out there who have not read the books. I have and don't mind the reinterpretations at all. I am watching with my kids who have not read the books and they have had some interesting questions. The whole Stilled or Shielded issue with Moraine ... Irrelevant. The scenes where she is trying to channel just show non book readers what's going on. I agree that the characters are following the right arcs and it's impressive that the show has done it with what is really very few minutes per person (compared to those endless pages of braid tugging by RJ). The show is much better than expected.

[DaddyFinn]

WoT is actually a very good high fantasy show. 

[Jaysen Gore]

And my biggest thoughts go in the everything to date thread, since it's where I can speculate fully. 

 

First and foremost, I'm more optimistic at the end of episode 3, since the most important plot development I needed is clear. Except for one little detail of how Rand gets to Falme (which we know happens from trailers) - I now can see a clear path by which the TV show and the book series end up in the exact same plot point round about episode 6, and they can move forward with the rest of the story.

 

the other thing the first 3 episodes have done is highlighted just how important the mix is for recorded music. allow me to explain...most of the notes, themes and characterizations of Robert Jordan's Wheel of Time are there on the screen. But like the music producer remixing a single, shifting the emphasis on certain notes, rhythms or themes can lead to a different feel in a song.  And the debate can rage over whether or not a remix is honouring, or destroying the song on which it is built. But you can't deny it's the same song.

 

So some of the changes they are making now are simply to increase the angle of the character arcs. So

 - increase the power of the Wonder Girls early, since they'll be reduced in importance and screen time at the end (especially if they drop most of the Camelyn Civil War)

- decrease Lan's competence, so he has a skill arc, and some danger, and isn't just invincible

- take Moiraine's channeling away so she can show its her - and not her magic - that make her a hero

-  give Mat farther to go to become a hero, so it's not just a reveal who he's always been to others.

- give Dark Friends reasons for going over that aren't always about power and conquest. 

 

And yes, some of the changes are to fulfill the agenda of the producers. They see how they can use this song to make their mark. It's still the same song, but the remix allows the producer to bring their vision to it.

- The homosexuality and polyamory is a common complaint I see. I don't care about it, but it is at least a logical outgrowth of facts shown in the book (pillow friends, the warder bond, and the same sex feedback loop). And for a minority of fans, it is literally world changing to see it normalized. so /shrug.

- the emphasis on women in power as heavy handed allegory. I don't  like allegory in any of its forms, but we know how this story ends, and the world as a whole now has farther to go in its arc to balance.  and it will balance. 

 

 

 

[Vartija]

I've enjoyed season 2 a lot more than the latter half of season 1 at the least. I think it helps that I finally accomodated myself to it being a lot different from the books after S1E8. I try to not get hung up on book changes and just try to roll with it as its own story. I always thought TEOTW would be the easiest book to translate to screen so maybe the changes in S1 hit me harder because I went into it expecting it to be more faithful.

 

The best thing about S2 so far is that the characters finally feel like themselves. Perrin isn't moping around depressed all the time but is actually doing stuff. The letter writing feels like something the thoughtful book-Perrin might do. He seems driven to catch Padan Fain so he finally has some purpose in his life. Mat doesn't feel like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders like in season 1. You can actually see some of the mischievousness in Mat. They are exploring the better sides of Rand with the way he's helping the sick in the mental hospital and giving a coin(?) to that begger kid. Min is far closer to book-Min than what we saw in Fal Dara. You might actually start liking and caring about the main characters. It feels like a breath a fresh air after the angsty first season. These are the characters I wanted to see from the start. 

 

Some thoughts and notes about the various storylines and characters:

- Moiraine & Lan feel perhaps a little aimless at times. You can sense that they have to invent a lot to keep Moiraine occupied during his absense in TGH. The way Moiraine is pushing Lan away feels a little contrived. These two aren't really living up to their intelligence right now, though one might forgive them for the shock of the stilling/shielding effecting their judgement. The fade fight was an example of this: Moiraine might have realized that if Bayle was being followed by fades, there's a strong likelihood they followed him all the way to the farm and hence riding away alone in the night might not be a great idea. I thought the fight looked pretty good though they are taking a bit of liberties with the Thakan'dar blades I think. Getting a gut wound from those is no joke. 

- The farm itself looks great and feels more "lived in" than many of the sets from season 1. Verin is there but to me she's not exactly acting like book-Verin so far. The way Verin pushed herself into the loop on the Dragon secret was a bit underwhelming imo. Looks like they are making Adeleas and Verin as sisters which I think is ok.

- The Tower events feel ok mostly I think. There's some hamfisted stuff at times like the AS meeting in the garden. It's definitely noteworthy how large a role they're giving Liandrin in the training. I kind of hoped to see Siuan face off with Nynaeve like in the book. 

- I give the writers credit for sticking with the Liandrin's "secret meeting with a man"-story from S1. I thought it was just a way for Moiraine to put Liandrin in her place and back off and we'd never find out what it was about, but the story is actually quite touching. I admit I'm a bit uncomfortable with making Liandrin have such a sympathethic side but it definitely hit me hard when I realized it was her son. It's an interesting concept to explore for sure.

- Nynaeve in the arches was well done and I admit they had me fooled a bit at some point that they might change her relationship with the Tower drastically and make her a Kin-type of wilder. It was a fleeting thought and there was a nagging feeling of "surely not" at the back of my mind. But they had me guessing which is actually pretty close to the spirit of the Three Arches testing. I actually teared up at some point but also had a good laugh about Lan the homemaker. 

- A bit of a nitpick, but it didn't feel right that the Three Arches room was just accessible for two novices to come in and channel at them on their own. Also the way Egwene confronts Liandrin this early into her training felt a little inappropriate considering the Aes Sedai/novice power dynamics.

- I love that Perrin is finally starting to get over the stuff from S1. I was kind of hoping he might send the ring going by now but... I think the five months is helping a lot here to justify why he isn't as depressed as he was the last time we saw him. I'm completely fine with that because the depression was dragging his character down way too much from what he could be.

- Not really feeling Elyas yet. It's great that he's been cast but the portrayal so far doesn't really fit my expectations. I always pictured him having a bit of a mischievous side which I'm not seeing yet.   

- I really liked the Shienarans so far. The battle scene looked great and shirtless Masema(?) looked fierce as hell. I kind of dread Masema's role in the story because he's so central to the slower parts of the story but maybe they can come up with something a bit more interesting with him. 

- Uno's death was a gut punch. I wasn't so enamoured with his portrayal in the show but still butchering one of the good guys like that really shocked me. I was completely not expecting that. I really thought someone would sweep in to interfere or they'd just beat him to submission. Brutal stuff and way to make me hate the Seanchan so much more. Can't wait for someone to put them in their place. 

- I struggle a bit with the Rand-Selene relationship. I understand changing it from the book's naive Rand to something a bit more mature, but the sleeping together stuff is still a little jarring. There's also a bit of a violent vibe to the relationship which I found awkward. I wish they'd come up with a way of bringing her in but keeping it more as a forbidden fruit kind of thing. Have Rand show some resistance like in the books.

- I do feel the sexual references are a bit jarring or cringy at times. Alanna with the threesome innuendo, Adeleas lusting after Lan and Tomas etc. There were plenty of these already in Season 1 and I just takes me out of the world a bit and now it's getting a bit repetitive as a source of humour.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Vartija

[Gary Again]

Really enjoying the season I was sad about Uno but that was an amazing way to introduce the Seanchan and he doesn't do all that much more in the books. I do like him trying not to swear around Nynaeve and the scene with him and Galad later in the books but I get the feeling a lot of that stuff is going to get cut so it was probably worth it. What I didn't like about it is the actor himself seemed like a big fan so that part kind of sucked but it was an epic way to go and it seemed fitting for Uno to go out cursing the Seanchan and refusing to bend to them. Someone had to not go along so you could see why people did go along and this really drove the point home.

 

I really liked the change with Rand helping out at that home it was just a beautiful way to show his character and it totally makes sense that he would want to understand what insanity is and looks like and it makes his choices later have more weight because he knows exactly what he faces. Loved that the guy that he's helping is an actual blade master and knows the moves I really enjoyed that part. I'm hoping we get a cat crossing the courtyard training with those two where Rand has to wonder if the guy is just screwing with him lol and it would be even funnier if Lan later shows him the same thing before meeting the Amerlyn and he realizes the guy from the insane asylum is a legit blade master. Also liked the Logain thing but the payoff for the wine was pretty bad but it seemed like he was trolling Rand by spilling it so I wonder if he's trying to get a sense of Rand's temperament before deciding if he wants to help him kind of like Cadsuane did in the books. 

 

Nynaeve's test was great I was actually wondering if they would just have her leave and what that would do for the story so they kind of got me with that one. Nynaeve just slamming that glass of dirty water was absolutely perfect too. It's kind of similar to Egwene and Nynaeve later in the books but this was just cool and pure Nynaeve. I kind of liked the direction they were taking things with Liandrin too it makes more sense than Siuan and I kind of liked that she was the one willing to tick off Nynaeve to get her to channel it makes sense that she would be willing to bend the rules and push harder to get the result which was what Nynaeve needed. Siuan works but I feel like Liandrin fits this great and it added more depth to both Nynaeve and Liandrin and just makes things more interesting between them. 

 

Elayne was absolutely perfect and I agree she wasn't how I imagined visually but her attitude is just perfect I loved her basically calling Egwene's belongings trash in the nicest possible way. Also really liked the prison hooch because it fit Elayne having interest in common things like swearing so brewing hooch was great and I just liked her line about Egwene living at an inn should be able to hold her liquor lol. The books had that really awkward start "Are we friends now?" so I thought this worked so much better and I thought the line about I barely know you was a clever call back to how easily they became friends in the book but then the fact that Elayne just showed up and was there for Egwene was perfect. Whoever is doing casting for this show deserves an award because they are just consistently doing amazing work.

 

I was worried about Donal's Mat but he is doing a great job and he seems to have great range as well being able to get mischievous Mat as well as serious Mat. Barney did a really great job with this too so I'm just glad to see that Donal is keeping it up. Barney's line about 'That's not the way roads work' is still probably the funniest line I've heard in WOT so I'll always appreciate his contribution. With the scene where it looks like he's stabbing Rand the books did a lot of great foreshadowing and they did a lot of great false foreshadowing where you thought that a vision or prophecy meant one thing and it was fulfilled in a completely different way. I'd imagine that is how this vision will play out but we'll see. I loved that he came back for Min and I liked how they were playing off of each other they actually fit really well as characters but we didn't see them interact until so late in the books. Also really loved the scene with Egwene and the out of focus Mat in the background it was a really nice image and felt like Mat.

 

Also enjoying Perrin and the hunt for the horn, I really like that Ishy adds doubt about the wolf because it makes Perrin's reluctance there make sense and Fain laid the groundwork with making Perrin think he was going to the shadow using his axe. I think they did a really nice job setting up his struggles with the way of the leaf and the wolf brother. Also like how they are showing the wolf power I think it works well and I think as he gains power we will see full blown Tel'aron'rhiod. I'm actually really digging Elyas and I loved that when he rescued Perrin he fairly obviously tore someone's throat out with his teeth. That is very normal for a wolf but shocking for a human so it sets up Perrin's fear and struggle with the wildness nicely. Also really liked Ingtar's conversation with Perrin because you understand it from Ingtars perspective but it's the perfect amount of shocking from Perrin's perspective. 

 

The Moiraine Lan thing is I think basically taken from the book they are just doing it earlier in the series but when she was passing his bond in the books she was purposefully trying to anger Lan to start to break their bond so he was willing to move on because I think she felt if she didn't anger him he would never move on. I think they were able to be more subtle in the books because they had more time but there was a good period there where she starts to lay down who is boss and making the bond chafe and I think she even says that at some point if the bond chafes you need to move on or something to that effect. They are basically doing mid books Moraine and Lan now and it just fit into Nynaeve's test perfectly they got me with it I thought Nynaeve was going to walk right out of the tower and the timing with Lan riding up kind of made sense because of what we saw previously so it paid off to me.

 

I thought the fade fight was great because their shadow walking ability brings something new to the fades compared to the other shadowy bad guys we see in fantasy. They are going to be compared pretty hard to ring wraiths so it's nice that they have some things to distinguish themselves and this was done well. They had this in the books they just never really used it. I also wish Lan would have had a better showing here but taking out 2 fades and fighting 3 at the same time in the dark is pretty crazy. I think they were showing how much he was missing the bond but when you add it to how people were feeling he hasn't had many moments to shine yet this kind of compounds that. I'm ok with him not being over the top competent though right now as the threats they are facing need to seem significant and if Lan is just always crushing everything his character becomes kind of cartoonish which doesn't play as well in a show. Also I feel like for good parts of the books the shadow doesn't seem all that threatening I think at the beginning it is and then at the end the shadow shows up for the last battle ready to rumble but in the middle I think RJ struggled to show them as capable threats which is where I think people talk about how ineffective a lot of the chosen seem to be is that middle part of the books. This fight and the shadow walking of the Fades sets them up to be more capable threats as we get to the middle of the series so it's hopefully part of making a more consistent threat level throughout the series.

Edited September 3, 2023 by Gary Again

[Scarloc99]

16 minutes ago, Gary Again said:

Really enjoying the season I was sad about Uno but that was an amazing way to introduce the Seanchan and he doesn't do all that much more in the books. I do like him trying not to swear around Nynaeve and the scene with him and Galad later in the books but I get the feeling a lot of that stuff is going to get cut so it was probably worth it. What I didn't like about it is the actor himself seemed like a big fan so that part kind of sucked but it was an epic way to go and it seemed fitting for Uno to go out cursing the Seanchan and refusing to bend to them. Someone had to not go along so you could see why people did go along and this really drove the point home.

 

I really liked the change with Rand helping out at that home it was just a beautiful way to show his character and it totally makes sense that he would want to understand what insanity is and looks like and it makes his choices later have more weight because he knows exactly what he faces. Loved that the guy that he's helping is an actual blade master and knows the moves I really enjoyed that part. I'm hoping we get a cat crossing the courtyard training with those two where Rand has to wonder if the guy is just screwing with him lol and it would be even funnier if Lan later shows him the same thing before meeting the Amerlyn and he realizes the guy from the insane asylum is a legit blade master. Also liked the Logain thing but the payoff for the wine was pretty bad but it seemed like he was trolling Rand by spilling it so I wonder if he's trying to get a sense of Rand's temperament before deciding if he wants to help him kind of like Cadsuane did in the books. 

 

Nynaeve's test was great I was actually wondering if they would just have her leave and what that would do for the story so they kind of got me with that one. Nynaeve just slamming that glass of dirty water was absolutely perfect too. It's kind of similar to Egwene and Nynaeve later in the books but this was just cool and pure Nynaeve. I kind of liked the direction they were taking things with Liandrin too it makes more sense than Siuan and I kind of liked that she was the one willing to tick off Nynaeve to get her to channel it makes sense that she would be willing to bend the rules and push harder to get the result which was what Nynaeve needed. Siuan works but I feel like Liandrin fits this great and it added more depth to both Nynaeve and Liandrin and just makes things more interesting between them. 

 

Elayne was absolutely perfect and I agree she wasn't how I imagined visually but her attitude is just perfect I loved her basically calling Egwene's belongings trash in the nicest possible way. Also really liked the prison hooch because it fit Elayne having interest in common things like swearing so brewing hooch was great and I just liked her line about Egwene living at an inn should be able to hold her liquor lol. The books had that really awkward start "Are we friends now?" so I thought this worked so much better and I thought the line about I barely know you was a clever call back to how easily they became friends in the book but then the fact that Elayne just showed up and was there for Egwene was perfect. Whoever is doing casting for this show deserves an award because they are just consistently doing amazing work.

 

I was worried about Donal's Mat but he is doing a great job and he seems to have great range as well being able to get mischievous Mat as well as serious Mat. Barney did a really great job with this too so I'm just glad to see that Donal is keeping it up. Barney's line about 'That's not the way roads work' is still probably the funniest line I've heard in WOT so I'll always appreciate his contribution. With the scene where it looks like he's stabbing Rand the books did a lot of great foreshadowing and they did a lot of great false foreshadowing where you thought that a vision or prophecy meant one thing and it was fulfilled in a completely different way. I'd imagine that is how this vision will play out but we'll see. I loved that he came back for Min and I liked how they were playing off of each other they actually fit really well as characters but we didn't see them interact until so late in the books. Also really loved the scene with Egwene and the out of focus Mat in the background it was a really nice image and felt like Mat.

 

Also enjoying Perrin and the hunt for the horn, I really like that Ishy adds doubt about the wolf because it makes Perrin's reluctance there make sense and Fain laid the groundwork with making Perrin think he was going to the shadow using his axe. I think they did a really nice job setting up his struggles with the way of the leaf and the wolf brother. Also like how they are showing the wolf power I think it works well and I think as he gains power we will see full blown Tel'aron'rhiod. I'm actually really digging Elyas and I loved that when he rescued Perrin he fairly obviously tore someone's throat out with his teeth. That is very normal for a wolf but shocking for a human so it sets up Perrin's fear and struggle with the wildness nicely. Also really liked Ingtar's conversation with Perrin because you understand it from Ingtars perspective but it's the perfect amount of shocking from Perrin's perspective. 

 

The Moiraine Lan thing is I think basically taken from the book they are just doing it earlier in the series but when she was passing his bond in the books she was purposefully trying to anger Lan to start to break their bond so he was willing to move on because I think she felt if she didn't anger him he would never move on. I think they were able to be more subtle in the books because they had more time but there was a good period there where she starts to lay down who is boss and making the bond chafe and I think she even says that at some point if the bond chafes you need to move on or something to that effect. They are basically doing mid books Moraine and Lan now and it just fit into Nynaeve's test perfectly they got me with it I thought Nynaeve was going to walk right out of the tower and the timing with Lan riding up kind of made sense because of what we saw previously so it paid off to me.

 

I thought the fade fight was great because their shadow walking ability brings something new to the fades compared to the other shadowy bad guys we see in fantasy. They are going to be compared pretty hard to ring wraiths so it's nice that they have some things to distinguish themselves and this was done well. I also wish Lan would have had a better showing here but taking out 2 fades and fighting 3 at the same time in the dark is pretty crazy. I think they were showing how much he was missing the bond but when you add it to how people were feeling he hasn't had many moments to shine yet this kind of compounds that. I'm ok with him not being over the top competent though right now as the threats they are facing need to seem significant and if Lan is just always crushing everything his character becomes kind of cartoonish which doesn't play as well in a show. Also I feel like for good parts of the books the shadow doesn't seem all that threatening I think at the beginning it is and then at the end the shadow shows up for the last battle ready to rumble but in the middle I think RJ struggled to show them as capable threats which is where I think people talk about how ineffective a lot of the chosen seem to be is that middle part of the books. This fight and the shadow walking of the Fades sets them up to be more capable threats as we get to the middle of the series so it's hopefully part of making a more consistent threat level throughout the series.

Fades for me went from these scary creatures in the early books to a bit of a joke that don’t really threaten anyone really. Aiel, Wolves, a two rivers man with a bow and arrow can all take them down easily, I think also as they went from being just 1 or 2 in the early books to then seeing them in there hundreds on the battlefield you see them more as very good soldiers vs the monster enemy. 
 

They gained a bit more threat in a memory of light, Talamanes shows the true threat they can offer even when dying, and a big deal being made of Lan taking on 2 at once on the battlefield but for me but then the mystique was long gone just because I don’t think you ever see a fade kill anyone in the books, they turn up, die, and then more come along later. 

[Elder_Haman]

6 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Fades for me went from these scary creatures in the early books to a bit of a joke that don’t really threaten anyone really.

Me too. The renegade channelers are far more menacing to me at the end of the books. It's also reflective of how the tone of the series gradually shifts from leaning more into the horror/thriller elements toward leaning into the grander political epic.

 

That's a tough balance for the show to walk as well. And one that I think they are setting up well this season by focusing on each character's personal, emotional journey.

 

It's easier to keep the tone even if you tell it as sort of a psychological thriller for each of the EFF. 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Elder_Haman

[Gary Again]

1 hour ago, Scarloc99 said:

Fades for me went from these scary creatures in the early books to a bit of a joke that don’t really threaten anyone really. Aiel, Wolves, a two rivers man with a bow and arrow can all take them down easily, I think also as they went from being just 1 or 2 in the early books to then seeing them in there hundreds on the battlefield you see them more as very good soldiers vs the monster enemy. 
 

They gained a bit more threat in a memory of light, Talamanes shows the true threat they can offer even when dying, and a big deal being made of Lan taking on 2 at once on the battlefield but for me but then the mystique was long gone just because I don’t think you ever see a fade kill anyone in the books, they turn up, die, and then more come along later. 

 

Yep I totally agree they get to the point where any channeler can take out a fair number of them easily and then regular characters seem to have no problem with them. They just become kind of mundane they almost become the measuring stick for how capable a character is. Also really loved that series with Talamanes it was great for his character but it was also a great callback to how fades were written at the beginning of the series but I agree the effect is lessened by how common killing fades became. I'd also just say that I do the audio books and Michael Kramers reading of that whole Talamanes part is great he really makes it all come to life.

 

One thing I'm thinking is they could just get rid of grey men in the show because that effect may be hard to come across in visual medium and replace all of the grey man attacks with fades stepping out of shadows. To me that is more terrifying anyway that fades can just step out at any time and then it keeps them as consistent threats through the series and then it also keeps the Gholam as more unique and surprising when it appears because it has a similar purpose to the grey men even if it had a much different capability.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2023 by Gary Again

[Elder_Haman]

1 minute ago, Gary Again said:

One thing I'm thinking (that may not be popular I guess) is they could just get rid of grey men in the show because that effect may be hard to come across in visual medium and replace all of the grey man attacks with fades stepping out of shadows. To me that is more terrifying anyway that fades can just step out at any time and then it keeps them as consistent threats through the series and then it also keeps the Gholam as more unique and surprising when it appears because it has a similar purpose to the grey men even if it had a much different capability.

Perhaps. It's definitely a problem that the writers will have to solve. You also have to consider that Fades are really better suited for assassination than for leading troops in battle. They are sort of a necessary weakness to keep the Trollocs in line. IIRC one of the reasons why a wolf and a Two Rivers man with a bow are able to take one out is because the Fade is actively controlling Trollocs at the time. So it's sort of a divided attention problem.

 

With more for the writers to do, this could be explained via some creepy Ishy exposition.

[Pandemonium]

Four possible ideas for Min's vision of Matt stabbing Rand with the Shadar Logoth dagger:

 

1.   The concept of grey men has been altered to assassins that can shapeshift.  They would have to make the grey men limited in some way for this to work, otherwise they could go rampant killing everyone.  But if a grey man took the likeness of Rand, that could explain this vision.  

 

2.  Seanchan bloodknifes can take the shape of other people--- this kind of fits the timeline and concept of season 2.  It would also explain why the bloodknifes are very limited in availability.

 

3.  The gholam has shapeshifting abilities which would be absolutely terrifying.  

 

4.  The Rand/Moridin bodyswap.  This is probably the least likely idea, but it has to be on the list since we do have a book example of a different soul inhabiting Rand's body.

 

 

 

[Scarloc99]

On 9/2/2023 at 6:52 AM, DaddyFinn said:

Removing the long intro also helps. It was so good though 🥲

But it is very anti RJ, I was hoping for a catch-up on every characters story to that moment every time they appear on screen 😉 

[RextheDog]

going to keep this as brief as possible.

 

that. was. more. like .it

 

 

i was OK with season one but it was to the weak end of the scale....these first three episodes are really great....Nyn in the arches is better than the book.

 

the story telling is great....now im removed from thinking it will mimick the books, so long as it motors along 'next to' the storyline and the 'main' characters end up completing the 'main' plot points, ill be happy, and if it keeps tracking the way it is, ill probably be actually even happier to live the epic series again without knowing everything that will happen next.

 

loved so many things

 

the arches

Cairhien

Mat and Min

Liandrin and her son

Liandrin being a conflicted character

Ishmael

the conversation with the child and the trolloc

Selene is awesome

Egwene and Elanye...who i actually skim through alot on re reads...is some great interaction, really liking it

the Seanchen war machine

Elyas leading the hunt is really streamlining that arc perfectly...it would be wasteful having two master trackers...sorry Hurin

the introduction of the game of houses

 

the list is endless....

 

 

i hope i havent just raised my hopes too high....but this is rwally where i was hoping this show would be.

 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

I’m loving it so far but because so many reasons have already been stated I’m going to mention just a couple of things that rewatching made me even more intrigued. When domon tells moiraine that the cuendillar is from cairhien, the moondial shattered 2 months ago or something, I didn’t catch it first time but on rewatch it hit me that it could be a Lanfear reference. Also the child who escaped from the Perrin vision looked like the girl from the first scene so it seems like that was the Darkfriend group they are tracking. I’m sure you all noticed that but for me rewatching really makes me more able to catch those things. I’m enjoying the elements of the show that are subtlety introduced that book fans will be able to recognize. 

[DigificWriter]

Speaking of "elements of the show that are subtly introduced that book fans will be able to recognize", the symbol for Selene's inn is a moon and stars (thank you LezbiNerdy).

[Scarloc99]

3 hours ago, RextheDog said:

going to keep this as brief as possible.

 

that. was. more. like .it

 

 

i was OK with season one but it was to the weak end of the scale....these first three episodes are really great....Nyn in the arches is better than the book.

 

the story telling is great....now im removed from thinking it will mimick the books, so long as it motors along 'next to' the storyline and the 'main' characters end up completing the 'main' plot points, ill be happy, and if it keeps tracking the way it is, ill probably be actually even happier to live the epic series again without knowing everything that will happen next.

 

loved so many things

 

the arches

Cairhien

Mat and Min

Liandrin and her son

Liandrin being a conflicted character

Ishmael

the conversation with the child and the trolloc

Selene is awesome

Egwene and Elanye...who i actually skim through alot on re reads...is some great interaction, really liking it

the Seanchen war machine

Elyas leading the hunt is really streamlining that arc perfectly...it would be wasteful having two master trackers...sorry Hurin

the introduction of the game of houses

 

the list is endless....

 

 

i hope i havent just raised my hopes too high....but this is rwally where i was hoping this show would be.

 

This may upset people but I actually feel in some ways this "version" of the opening, splitting the boys so early and telling the story in this way is better then the way RJ tells it, there is a lot of repetition of story in the first 3 books, I mean we all know this but.

Book 1 they all run away from the 2 rivers, split up, get back together again, stuff happens and they get to a place. 
Book 2 they split up, half travel across the land to go to a place and Rand has a big fight, the other half spend time in the tower before travelling to the same place, a bit of jigery pokery to artificially make a time jump (something that on screen would feel even cheaper then it does on paper), and Rand has another big fight with the same person 
Book 3 again half the party go back to the white tower and then go travelling again, again being led into a trap, the other half well, they are following Rand who is heading off being led into that same trap yet again. 

 

Splitting them up and taking them all on those independent character journeys as distinct stories I think makes for a better story. Now there is still plenty of opportunity to mess it up but I will say that things that people had suggested early on that I was unhappy with (Rand and Selene being a full on relationship for instance) are actually working in the show for me. Although I do wonder just how they are going to tell the Avi storyline when Rand can't pretend to be the shy reserved confused boy he is in the books. That is going to be a harder line to tread. 

[Elder_Haman]

34 minutes ago, Scarloc99 said:

Splitting them up and taking them all on those independent character journeys as distinct stories I think makes for a better story.

It definitely makes for a better story on screen. When you have source material that spends so much time inside its characters' heads, its very hard to put on screen. To me, WoT - at its heart - is a story is about the emotional journeys of the EFF. In the books, we get to look at the world through the characters' eyes and take their journey with them. In film we have to be shown what they are feeling. In this respect, if Rafe is going the direction I think he is: telling it as a 5 separate psychological thrillers, it is a brilliant choice. 

[Jaysen Gore]

On 9/3/2023 at 9:26 AM, Elder_Haman said:

Me too. The renegade channelers are far more menacing to me at the end of the books. It's also reflective of how the tone of the series gradually shifts from leaning more into the horror/thriller elements toward leaning into the grander political epic.

 

That's a tough balance for the show to walk as well. And one that I think they are setting up well this season by focusing on each character's personal, emotional journey.

 

It's easier to keep the tone even if you tell it as sort of a psychological thriller for each of the EFF. 

I think there is kind of an in-story canon reason for this. For hundreds of years (at least since the trolloc wars), the Fades were the most fearful of the dark ones armies, outside the actual blight.  There were no Dreadlords, so Fades were the most dangerous, and the thing to be feared the most. But in our story, the Forsaken are no longer fairy tales, and darkfriends are no longer pathetic imbeciles.  And compared to what the forsaken can do without warning, Fades are nothing but speed and steel and shadowstepping. When hurricanes and lightning strikes out of the blue exist and want to kill you, what is to fear from something that can be fought?

[DaddyFinn]

Found this on WoTSeries discord. There's a leash in some shots at least. Interesting. It connects to the upper back 

 

[Scarloc99]

13 hours ago, Jaysen Gore said:

I think there is kind of an in-story canon reason for this. For hundreds of years (at least since the trolloc wars), the Fades were the most fearful of the dark ones armies, outside the actual blight.  There were no Dreadlords, so Fades were the most dangerous, and the thing to be feared the most. But in our story, the Forsaken are no longer fairy tales, and darkfriends are no longer pathetic imbeciles.  And compared to what the forsaken can do without warning, Fades are nothing but speed and steel and shadowstepping. When hurricanes and lightning strikes out of the blue exist and want to kill you, what is to fear from something that can be fought?

I think it is also ok sometimes to accept that one of the issues with a long form story narrative is that you need to ramp up the threat to your heroes as there power increases. I think I was a bit to flippant about the fades thinking about it, it does usually take specific tactics or many men to kill one, but after centuries of fighting them the warriors of Randland have learnt how to kill a a fade. Also Fades don't fight as a unit, even when there are multiple they fight individually. And, if you know the fade is coming then you can prepare and take them out at range. I think they are still very dangerous if one crept up on you alone, at home, at night but we don't really see much of that beyond book 2. 

[Lightfriendsocialmistress]

Do we know where siuan is at this point? Also curious if any hints regarding other forsaken lurking about have been made that I may have missed, aside from the 2 I’m sure of? I hope that was vague enough to not be a spoiler. One more thing I have to mention, imo wow to the portrayal of ishy. I’m loving it. Also, I would be lost without my dependence on turning on subtitles/cc. I didn’t know who many characters were without them…masema for one.