This past episode, I would say, is the best yet because they did their best to give us the book - and because they were not attempting to “deepen” or “improve”. Just give us Jordan’s WoT as close as you can & the show would be a success. Obviously we all understand that there are limitations and need to have “changes” for a dif medium and because you only have 8 seasons and 8 episode seasons. So the example you gave is a good one. We couldn’t have all 9 steps back because there isn’t time. Janduin is a good place to start. But not having Janduin mask to kill is … a fail … book or show. “Improving” the Lore? Like they tried to do in first 2 Seasons with stuff like “degendering souls”? Has demonstrably been a massive fail (hence the real possibility the show is cancelled after this season). The closer they get to “book faithful” the better it is (like this episode)!

How do I make a gagging face at the notion that the Tv show has “deepened the Lore”? If that’s what the showrunner and writers are aiming to do than even after this wonderful episode… I pray the show is cancelled immediately!

If this is true and Rafe said that - I’m back to “I really don’t trust this showrunner knows what the books were about/loves what Jordan wrote.” But anyways. Is there pretty much widespread agreement that this was the best episode yet? That’s what I’m seeing from the content creators/book readers!

Good point. At least … with the Forsaken (not sure if I remember regular Darkfriends getting that deal?)

And the Ying/Yang, Male/Female, balance and power and reincarnation eastern worldview/dynamic - and the power dynamics and sexism that might occur if the world-typical patriarchy was reversed to be matriarchy’s is pretty core to everything the series is about. I.E read Nyn’s hundreds of sexist comments about men in the series. So yeah… gendered souls is pretty important to wheel of time (and only time it’s reversed is a machination of the DO as a punishment)!

The question at hand was the metaphysics of reincarnation - and are you arguing that it’s clear or semi-clear in the show but wasn’t in the books by book 4? (Clarifying question).

I recently learned that “asmodeus” is a pretty famous ancient villain. One of the rulers of Hell and king over demons. In a number of Medieval texts. I wonder if that was the inspiration for the name or how Jordan named his Forsaken?

I appreciate that @DigificWriter found the episode a bit confusing and needed an explanation. But I also think that that is a perfect example of WoTTv’s fatal flaw. Because … I think that pretty much everyone who loves the books - for the most part loved this episode (I know I did) because it was closest to a beat-for-beat book faithful adaptation of “the trial of Rhuidien”. Plus there were other major nods to book ppl. Flame and the void. Tam is a blade master. Lan/Rand training. Exposition almost direct from the books. Close to scene for scene for scene portrayal of the Aiel’s history. But the shows past … unfaithfulness … to the books (for the sake of non-readers?) … then for the Tv audience maybe makes this episode a bit of a “whaaat is going on here?” And loses its emotional power that it has for readers. Like @DigificWriter brought up - what is the show’s metaphysics of reincarnation? And then a bunch of book readers gave book explanations. The truth is… the show has sucked at metaphysics and logical consistency with it. Going all the way back to S1 E1 opening lines where they said “The Dragon Reborn could be reborn as a girl.” No. Core to the whole story is the Dragon was a male Aes Sedai and the male half of the OP is tainted so the Dragon Reborn goes insane while he is suppose to save the world. Show metaphysics of the halves of the OP. Of reincarnation. Of the dagger and Shadar Logoth. Are not very clear at all. That being said… as a book fan… this is the best fantasy episode of Tv I’ve ever seen. Makes me so happy and angry at the same time. Happy because “they did it!” And angry because … “why the heck couldn’t you have being ‘doing it’ in the previous 18 episodes?” You are capable of bringing us an awesome, book-faithful adaptation. So what we’re doing in S1 and S2?

They do address in Ep3 in the Matt/Siuan exchange that Matt was being dumb and putting himself in massive danger… But it’s kind of a… fruitless cycle/book perspective. Because as I said several posts back… book Rand and the Aiel would never have ever been in TV in the first place… Though I did just see the EDN reaction and they too kind of noted “Didn’t Moiraine just tell them to hide. What are they doing?” type of reaction.

Rand does not do that in the show. Matt does. And maybe my memory isn’t great but early books Matt was pretty insufferably dumb.

She did? Can you find/quote that cause I completely missed it. And if she really did say that, that's another - pretty egregiously bad case of writing. Because then Ishy's entire motivation has been erased and makes no sense. He would have wanted a "true death" and then should have just broken his oath. But in Ishy's dialogue he says that he is the only Chosen who "really believes in the Dark" and implies that what the Dark One wants is for everyone to have a "true death". Right? Or am I missing something/misunderstanding something?

Here's a hot take - but I have a premonition that I'm going be right on this one. I bet the last Forsaken is Asmo and that

You know - all of these objections - I feel as well - but as a Book Fanatic. I don't think most of them even register for non-readers! And as Tv, I just don't think people care. For example, I too really did not like the Aiel and Rand being in TV at all. And then add on top of that them not disguising at all but just walking through the streets like ... no big deal. But I feel that Because of the books. If you were just watching the show, maybe ... maybe you had the thought "In that one cool cold open from S1 where the pregnant Aiel woman single-handedly took down a bunch of armored soldiers ... did they say something about the Aiel war & Aiel fighting outside the walls of TV? Hm... that was like, 20 years ago, right? Strange people wouldn't still see them as enemies ... but ok!" But other than that, do we have any reason to believe in the show world that Aiel are seen as the big bad, ultimate warriors that ought to stay on ... that side of the world? I think Rand is portraying that he has very mixed feelings - and I think they are playing on that this season with a Lanfear/Egwene/Rand romance/drama dynamic. In the show world, Selene was really Rand's only adult relationship besides Egwene - and he didn't know she was Lanfear when he was getting attached to her. Now he does - but he also knows she can probably kill him or people close to him if she wanted too. On the healing thing - I think all of us - book and Tv fans, unless we're just die hard WoTTv defenders have to admit you're right here. This is what I will consistently say they are still being CW-esque in and just sucking at as writers. In every season thus far, we have had a TON of "fake-out-deaths". It's got to be pretty close to 1 per episode. Remember in season 1 where they tried to make us believe that basically all the main characters were going die because Logain broke an ax breaking out of his shield ... but Nynaeve mass healed everybody (because she might be the Dragon?)?? Remember S1 finale where Nyn or was it Eggy (can't remember) seemingly healed death? So yes - I agree with you - thus far in S3, by my count, at least 4 of the central characters should be dead (Liandrin - double swords to the chest, Nyn - stabbed 11 times, Egwene - stabbed several times, Perrin - ax to chest, all in Ep1). Got to admit though - Morgase intro cold open surprised every-single-one of us innocent sheepherders (Tv and book readers!) Did not see that coming. In the show, we know almost nothing about Compulsion - what we know is that Rahvin is probably the best at it. And I think it's rather clever how they showed that - "And you are ... oh yes, Gabriel." Anyways ... my point is ... difficult to write something for book and non-book fans. The hardest-core book fans will always have a lot of knits to pick with a Tv adaption.

I would agree with you in this assessment about the first 2 seasons - they were CW esque (but had darker moments for sure). I disagree with you about this season though. You don’t think this season (Tv wise - books aside) is better? Im genuinely curious what fantasy shows you find to be better? Cause I think WoT S3 is hands down better thus far than anything I’m watching except Daredevil…

Another good point, but I already took my dumb idea back - so there! I vehemently agree with you both completely. But who do you think is the 8th Forsaken?