Cutting Berelain

[MayEastRise]

I think Berelain could be cut without changing the plot much. She doesn’t have much impact on the plot and when she does it could be argued to be some of the worst moments in the series.

 

This whole rivalry with Faile was one of my least favorite parts of the series and there isn’t really a point to it in my opinion. Every reader knows that Perrin won’t cheat on his wife and there isn’t some grande resolution that justifies wasting so much time on her. Add to that that much of this happens during the hostage plot which is also one of my (and many other people’s) least favorite parts and I think cutting Berelain might the show better.

 

What do you people think of this?

[Effete]

Yep! The whole Berelain /Faile thing felt like RJ was just being indulgent. It could have been resolved within one book, but dragged on and on and just got tiresome.

[Carebear Sedai]

I hope she is cut. The time could be spent on more interesting characters. 

[Elendir]

I agree that Berelain is a character that can be cut off. However, she has an influence on the story. Although it does not fundamentally affect events, she quite often affects events of a local nature. All her actions can be attributed to someone else.

As a result, it may be easier to leave her at serial than to replace her in ten different places.

[MayEastRise]

Does she have that much of an influence though? Berelain has in my opinion 5 important roles in the story. 

 

1. Trying to seduce Rand.

2. Stewardship over Cairhien.

3. Chasing Perrin

4. Providing troops and some moral support during the hostage crisis

5. Romantic “target” for Galad

 

1 and 5 could be scrapped outright without loosing anything. If you really want you could replace her in 1 with some unnamed woman who just appears just once.

For 2. you could just have Dobraine be the steward from the beginning IMO.

I have made my opinions about number 3 clear in my first post.

[Elendir]

After the conquest of Cairhien, Rand did not trust any of the local nobles. Dobraine would be a bad replacement.
Suitable replacement would certainly be found for all her tasks. Appropriate replacement in stable roles can be more difficult. The whole thing is to have fewer actors, not more.
The moment you hire an actress to push Elayne to try to seduce Rand, it can be anyone, even First of Mayene.

 

Elayne can also get into the action without pushing. The Cairhienins may accept Aiel as steward, and Faile can be jealous without rival. None of this breaks the story. But does it help anything?

[mistborn82]

Make Caralane steward, you could play up the whole Damodred thing and possibly have a flashback or two to NS where Moiraine basically runs away to avoid becoming Queen of Cairhein. Galad doesn't need a love interest. I actually wonder if Berelain, Faile and Perrin were supposed to be a love triangle that was never properly executed.

[Harldin]

Keep Berelain but shred the whole Perrin/Faile part of her story, it’s a distraction that ends up going nowhere, make her a less important character to the overall story.

[mistborn82]

That would also work and I'm pretty Perrin's story will be the most changed i.e. more even character development.

This is a digression but I'd like to know what the original purpose of Slayer being connected to Rand and Lan was. You have the what was, I think, supposed to be a Perrin love triangle and Slayer. They all went nowhere, RJ I guess couldn't kill his darlings but I really would like to know the original plan for slayer.

[Carebear Sedai]

On 5/8/2020 at 3:33 PM, Elendir said:

After the conquest of Cairhien, Rand did not trust any of the local nobles. Dobraine would be a bad replacement.
Suitable replacement would certainly be found for all her tasks. Appropriate replacement in stable roles can be more difficult. The whole thing is to have fewer actors, not more.
The moment you hire an actress to push Elayne to try to seduce Rand, it can be anyone, even First of Mayene.

 

Elayne can also get into the action without pushing. The Cairhienins may accept Aiel as steward, and Faile can be jealous without rival. None of this breaks the story. But does it help anything?

 

 

The point isn't to replace her, it's to cut her and streamline the story. Rand's seduction, Galad's romance and Faile's jealousy are wasted screentime and simply don't need to exist. Her post at Cairhien can just be given to another character who is essential. Like Rhuarc. 

 

[VirginiaCat]

A competing thought on Berelain..

 

She was a strong female figure that went after what she want no matter what it took.  Leader of a small country that did what needed to ensure her countries independence.

 

She was central to the whole Perrin storyline.

 

The problem is with an 8 show season, all the different storylines cannot be developed.

[Ascended]

I'm of two minds on it.

 

One on hand, Berelain is a character who *could* be cut without having too deep an impact on the overall story. It'd save a lot of screen time that could be spent on better plots.

 

But on the other hand, I'm not fond of the idea of cutting anything or anyone that doesn't *have* to be cut. I don't want someone else's remix version of WoT, I want Jordan's story, with only as many adjustments as is absolutely required for the adaptation to television. If it can be kept at all, it should be kept.

[MayEastRise]

20 minutes ago, Ascended said:

I'm of two minds on it.

 

One on hand, Berelain is a character who *could* be cut without having too deep an impact on the overall story. It'd save a lot of screen time that could be spent on better plots.

 

But on the other hand, I'm not fond of the idea of cutting anything or anyone that doesn't *have* to be cut. I don't want someone else's remix version of WoT, I want Jordan's story, with only as many adjustments as is absolutely required for the adaptation to television. If it can be kept at all, it should be kept.

You’re setting yourself up for disappointment. The TV show will a Rafe Judkins remix just like LotR was a Peter Jackson remix.

[Ascended]

On 5/23/2020 at 6:03 PM, MayEastRise said:

You’re setting yourself up for disappointment. The TV show will a Rafe Judkins remix just like LotR was a Peter Jackson remix.

 

I know. But the heart wants what the heart wants. ? 

[Carebear Sedai]

On 5/23/2020 at 5:41 PM, Ascended said:

But on the other hand, I'm not fond of the idea of cutting anything or anyone that doesn't *have* to be cut. I don't want someone else's remix version of WoT, I want Jordan's story, with only as many adjustments as is absolutely required for the adaptation to television. If it can be kept at all, it should be kept.

 

Jordan's story as is wouldn't be fit for a compelling TV series. It's a wonderful read and it will always exist, but adaptations without a creator that's dedicated to molding a story with a specific vision turn out pretty awful (ie. the first two Harry  Potter movies that are artless snoozefests). A visual medium can't sufficiently tell the story in the exact same way the book does. We won't be in the characters' heads, reading their thoughts, understanding their motives in such an intimate way. Adaptations have to be crafted with a creative head who does stamp their own mark on them in order to be cohesive and effective. 

 

Edit: I'm never certain what fans mean by changes that aren't necessary or cuts that aren't necessary. At the end of the day, we're talking about fiction and "necessary" plots or characters aren't objective, each fan will likely have different interpretations of what that is or isn't. Whatever changes or cuts the showrunner makes to tell his adaptation is IMO necessary. 

Edited June 11, 2020 by Carebear Sedai

[Harldin]

58 minutes ago, Carebear Sedai said:

 

Jordan's story as is wouldn't be fit for a compelling TV series. It's a wonderful read and it will always exist, but adaptations without a creator that's dedicated to molding a story with a specific vision turn out pretty awful (ie. the first two Harry  Potter movies that are artless snoozefests). A visual medium can't sufficiently tell the story in the exact same way the book does. We won't be in the characters' heads, reading their thoughts, understanding their motives in such an intimate way. Adaptations have to be crafted with a creative head who does stamp their own mark on them in order to be cohesive and effective. 

 

Edit: I'm never certain what fans mean by changes that aren't necessary or cuts that aren't necessary. At the end of the day, we're talking about fiction and "necessary" plots or characters aren't objective, each fan will likely have different interpretations of what that is or isn't. Whatever changes or cuts the showrunner makes to tell his adaptation is IMO necessary. 

The simple truth is that a percentage of the fans of the books are going to hate the TV Series, it happened with LOTR, it happened with GOT. You will get some who will simply hate the entire idea and never watch it, you will get some who hate the actors chosen, or don’t like what the Rafe has done before, you will get some who will hate that characters have been cut, Storylines have been cut, or simply hasn’t come out looking the way they pictured it. 
you  cannot please 100% of the Fans, LOTR and GOT got about 70-80% of the fans plus millions who never read the Books. And i will settle for that. Personally I don’t have a problem with a few changes.

[Ascended]

On 6/11/2020 at 5:55 PM, Carebear Sedai said:

Edit: I'm never certain what fans mean by changes that aren't necessary or cuts that aren't necessary. At the end of the day, we're talking about fiction and "necessary" plots or characters aren't objective, each fan will likely have different interpretations of what that is or isn't. Whatever changes or cuts the showrunner makes to tell his adaptation is IMO necessary. 

 

Yeah, different people will have different ideas about what can be cut or changed and what shouldn't be. 

 

For myself, I'm not bothered by minor changes; dialogue is gonna have to be different because the show wont have the internal narration, super minor characters like Alivia; the former Seanchan who "helped Rand die" can be cut without much trouble, etc.

 

Where I draw the line is stuff like combining the characters of Avi, Min, and/or Elayne. I hear that this specific thing won't happen in the show but it's just an example. Cutting out stuff that informs the develops the characters; even Perrin's hunt for Faile which most of us hate, I wouldn't want removed (condensed, but not cut completely, because Perrin's actions here inform his choices later on). Removing Berelain from the story straddles the line for me; she's minor enough that cutting her out doesn't alter *too* much, but she's still big/important enough that, if given a choice, I'd want her included.

 

But I'm probably going to be one of the fans who doesn't love the show. Not because Rafe will do a bad job or anything like that, I'm sure the show will be quality and he'll only make the changes he has to. But I hold this story in such high esteem I don't want any changes big enough for me to notice. ? I know that's unreasonable and impossible to achieve in a tv format and I'm being unfair to the cast and crew. But this is my favorite series ever, I don't want it compromised....even if the compromise is necessary for the adaptation. I'll give the show a shot of course, and I like the casting I've seen and I'm sure it'll be done well....but everything they cut, every large-ish change they make....it's gonna wound me.

[johnnysd]

I am not sure that a TV series will cut a hot woman that can be put into love triangles.  Dont be surprised if Perrin in the TV show is less faithful than he is in the books.

[johnnysd]

On 6/11/2020 at 2:55 PM, Carebear Sedai said:

 

 (ie. the first two Harry  Potter movies that are artless snoozefests).

 

A lot of people say this often, but I actually liked the first two maybe more than the others.  And I might like Cuaron's the least of all.

[dssharp]

On 4/20/2020 at 1:46 PM, MayEastRise said:

I think Berelain could be cut without changing the plot much. She doesn’t have much impact on the plot and when she does it could be argued to be some of the worst moments in the series.

 

This whole rivalry with Faile was one of my least favorite parts of the series and there isn’t really a point to it in my opinion. Every reader knows that Perrin won’t cheat on his wife and there isn’t some grande resolution that justifies wasting so much time on her. Add to that that much of this happens during the hostage plot which is also one of my (and many other people’s) least favorite parts and I think cutting Berelain might the show better.

 

What do you people think of this?

I think Faile was one of my least enjoyed parts of the series almost throughout.

[mistborn82]

Perrin will probably change the most because it's a mismatch from the outset and Faile never gets to use Any of her backstory until almost the last minute. If you kick Perrin up a few notches instead of being dragged kick and screaming, he's more interesting and the Noblewoman gets to use her backstory and since she's Saldean, I assume they make her into a badass swordswoman or something. Berelain might be retained but I think the whole Perrin thing gets dropped.

[Jimmyr90]

On 4/20/2020 at 3:46 PM, MayEastRise said:

I think Berelain could be cut without changing the plot much. She doesn’t have much impact on the plot and when she does it could be argued to be some of the worst moments in the series.

 

This whole rivalry with Faile was one of my least favorite parts of the series and there isn’t really a point to it in my opinion. Every reader knows that Perrin won’t cheat on his wife and there isn’t some grande resolution that justifies wasting so much time on her. Add to that that much of this happens during the hostage plot which is also one of my (and many other people’s) least favorite parts and I think cutting Berelain might the show better.

 

What do you people think of this?

Hmmm you don't remember the books very well because berelain never tried seducing peeing while failed was held captive by the aiel. Also if you cut out berelain you cut out a whole nation and the main reason alliandre swears fealty to perin and rand. Not to mention if you cut out the whole captivity of faile you cut out the fall of savanna and that group of aiel not to mention you cut out morgase being with perin which leads to the trial of perin once galad finds them.  You can't cut out multiple nations, the fall of the evil wise one and galad meeting berelain his eventual love interest and wife unless we're going to completely change the source material. They already did it wrong having min be a dark friend, the heroes of the horn, Matt getting the old memories completely cutting out the ter'angreal and aviendha being completely wrong from the way she's described in the books... I get Hollywood is on the agenda of casting people color in staring roles but to completely change the appearance of a character is just wrong. 

[Jimmyr90]

On 7/6/2020 at 9:04 PM, dssharp said:

I think Faile was one of my least enjoyed parts of the series almost throughout.

Why because she's strong, argumentative and has a big nose? Egwene and the others with the ring thinking they know better than everyone else was the least enjoyable thing about the series. They repeatedly proved they were incompetent yet thought they always knew more and were better than everyone else. I personally loved faile the whole series and they did a great job casting Isabella to play her starting in S3

[Ryrin]

On 6/21/2020 at 11:15 AM, Ascended said:

 

Yeah, different people will have different ideas about what can be cut or changed and what shouldn't be. 

 

For myself, I'm not bothered by minor changes; dialogue is gonna have to be different because the show wont have the internal narration, super minor characters like Alivia; the former Seanchan who "helped Rand die" can be cut without much trouble, etc.

 

Where I draw the line is stuff like combining the characters of Avi, Min, and/or Elayne. I hear that this specific thing won't happen in the show but it's just an example. Cutting out stuff that informs the develops the characters; even Perrin's hunt for Faile which most of us hate, I wouldn't want removed (condensed, but not cut completely, because Perrin's actions here inform his choices later on). Removing Berelain from the story straddles the line for me; she's minor enough that cutting her out doesn't alter *too* much, but she's still big/important enough that, if given a choice, I'd want her included.

 

But I'm probably going to be one of the fans who doesn't love the show. Not because Rafe will do a bad job or anything like that, I'm sure the show will be quality and he'll only make the changes he has to. But I hold this story in such high esteem I don't want any changes big enough for me to notice. ? I know that's unreasonable and impossible to achieve in a tv format and I'm being unfair to the cast and crew. But this is my favorite series ever, I don't want it compromised....even if the compromise is necessary for the adaptation. I'll give the show a shot of course, and I like the casting I've seen and I'm sure it'll be done well....but everything they cut, every large-ish change they make....it's gonna wound me.

That’s why I’m passing it. 

[Elder_Haman]

17 hours ago, Jimmyr90 said:

They already did it wrong having min be a dark friend,

Min isn’t a dark friend. She’s being manipulated by one. Big difference.