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Effete's Achievements


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  1. True. But I think the general vibe was it was pretty much a utopia. Weather control made the seasons predictable, with little or no natural disasters; Chora trees everywhere spread peace and contentment (opiate for the masses?); and pretty much everyone's needs were met.
  2. But then doesn't this defeat your theory that the Aiel were all about preserving trees and growing things? Even if it were only the Chora trees they cared about, I'd imagine they'd make some considerable sacrifices to keep one alive... if they were as important as you claim. The fact that there are so many Aiel (hundreds of thousands, if not over a million) living in the Waste, that's a whole lot of water going just to sustain them, even at bare minimum amounts. If their population were cut in half, the "extra" water could be used to maintain one Chora tree per clan. And if Jordan wanted to get a bit grittier, he could have had Wise Ones use the Power to extract moisture from dead bodies (after all, he already stole the idea for the Aiel from Dune... why not some core concepts of the Fremen too?). For each piece of evidence that supports your theory, I can find two that don't.
  3. This makes sense. As an aside, the "Rods of Dominion" sounds quite ominous. I'm fairly certain "dominion" is meant to refer to the extent of one's governance (i.e., lines on a map), but it kinda sounds like the Age of Legends was a dystopian dictatorship, with whoever holds a Rod commanding obeisance from the plebs. Ohh, the power of words...
  4. Because that's the name Jordan chose. 😁 But seriously, the society of the Age of Legends was quite alien to anything we see in the books (reminiscent of the late Renaissance) or even our own contempary, modern society. The Way of the Leaf seems like some type of psuedo-spiritual philosophy meant to tie its adherents to a common goal (much like how Suiane described the Three Oaths). The only real glimpse we get of AoL Aiel is during the growth-song (I forget the actual name used), where they are growing vegetables. It seems to me that the Aiel were akin to farmers. After all, someone needs to provide the food to sustain a global population. In the real world, starvation is the norm outside of first-world countries. The AoL is depicted as a "first-world planet," which means food-production is a MAJOR factor. Aiel means "dedicated" ... what exactly were they dedicated to? Unless there is an answer in context, anything you or I would say is pure conjecture. You say they were dedicated to the Chora trees, I say they were dedicated to sustaining the populous... the WotL promotes empathy, which is a valuable trait to have if your purpose is to provide for people. And the cultlike mentality of the WotL ensues a shared, focused goal amongst all Aiel. Again, this is just my speculation based on the information from the text. I'm not claiming I'm right, but the evidence supports this theory just as much as any other. What evidence is there that the Chora trees were more important than the artifacts of Power? I asked you to provide quotes for this claim. Otherwise, you're just shouting into the wind. My interpretation is that the Aiel were simply asked to safeguard a variety of items so that civilization can be more easily rebuilt once the War ended. After all, Sammael finds glowglobes in a stasis box... that's the modern-day equivalent of locking a lamp in a vault. You only do that so you won't need to buy/built another lamp. The people intended to simply resume their lives exactly how they left them before the War started. They didn't expect the Breaking to occur. Preserving the WotL would have been more important than the items simply because the items could be replaced, but empathy would be needed to renew hope that things will get better; that things will return to normal. As for Laman's Sin, the gift of the tree was a symbol of the friendship between the two tribes. But there's some important context missing, namely, what the oath was when the gift was given. Killing Laman was pretty excessive, and that supports your claim that the Chora trees hold more significance to the Aiel than we're led to presume, but the precise nature of the oath could also explain why a death-sentence was warranted. The hole in your theory, however, is that if the Chora trees were as important as you claim, why haven't the Aiel planted more? Let's say, one for each clan? Or more! Each time a new Clan Chief is chosen, he could return with a cutting, to plant in his hold. The mysticism surrounding Avendesora more likely stems from the fact that so few Aiel actually get to see it. When the barrier around Rhuidean falls, and the city is made open to the public, the near-destruction of Avendesora is no more than a passing comment. If Jordan had intended for the tree to be so important, wouldn't he have dedicated some more time to showing the dispair and lamentation of the Aiel? I mean, RJ was not afraid to bloviate and needlessly detail events of his story; all indications show that the tree had much less significance than you are claiming it had.
  5. The Oath Rod in the White Tower was said to be engraved with the number "3", which some believed represented the Three Oaths. But the rod that Samael gives to Sevanna was engraved with, IIRC, an "11." (Or was it "111"? Something else entirely??) At any rate, it was higher than nine. Not sure what that suggests, but it seems to rule out Sevanna's rod being one of the nine.
  6. @Jsbrads2 You're going to need to provide some quotes to support those claims.
  7. Inferred from Rand's ancestral memory. There was mention of numerous caravans lined up, each laden with artifacts and each with several Chora saplings strapped to the sides. This was all well before the schism. We know the WotL forbids violence, and we know no Chora trees survived except for Avendesora, so we can infer that the Tinker-Aiel: a) never found a place to plant them, and/or b) abandoned them. By contrast, the wasteland-Aiel had abandoned the WotL, which presumably allowed them to defend the caravans long enough to reach Rhuidean. The Jenn are very likely the few wasteland-Aiel who never took up the veil; hence, the name. Still, it's not entirely known how far the Jenn deviated from their roots, so I question the validity of the term "True Aiel." It is curious how the Jenn are always spoken of in present tense though: The Jenn live in Rhuidean, etc. This makes me think the Clan Chiefs are actually referring to the memories revealed in the glass ter'angreal. Memories are timeless; the event is in the past, but a memory is forever current.
  8. Okay, but now you need to provide examples of where the "All is well" phrase deserves to be used, or where "cloudberries" need to be mentioned. Otherwise, these fall perfectly in line with an open-ended use. Just because the books no longer have examples of the terms, it does not mean they no longer exist, or are no longer being said... it's just that there is no reason to mention them explicitly. The narrative can still allude to the phrase, though, even without using it. For example, if a sentence was: In the midst of the panic, she assured them everthing was going to be fine, the reader uses their own head-canon for what is actually said, and the world-building allows for the "All is well" phrase to be inserted.
  9. "Jenn" literally means True, so the Jenn Aiel, by definition, are the only "True" (or real) Aiel. However, this is a term that was applied to them later, by a people already perverted from their roots, so I would NOT use it as any conclusive proof one way or another. It does seem to suggest that the Wasteland Aiel acknowledge that they are not "true" Aiel, which defaults your question to the Tinkers being the "real" Aiel. Regardless, let's explore some more... If Rand's flashback memories serve any merit, then the Tinkers are closer to what the Aiel were in the AoL. They still adhere to the Way of the Leaf and seek the ancient Treesongs they used to know. The modern-day Aiel are the ones who were originally called the Lost Ones, and were required to veil their faces out of shame. The veiling became adopted into a cultural more, while the term Lost Ones was inverted and projected back at the Tinkers (likely out of spite for being cast out... i.e., "I'm rubber, you're glue"). It was only by luck (or perhaps the will of the Pattern) that the only surviving Chora tree happened to make it's way to Rhuidean. The Tuatha'an caravans had several saplings, but since they never found a safe place settle, the trees withered and died. Can't entirely blame them for that; they were still obeying their orders from the AS right up until the bitter end. Clinging to non-violence (The Way of the Leaf) proved to be their detriment, as they abandoned caravans and Ter'angreal to the numerous brigands and desparate survivors. The Aiel adapted to their harsh new world, and were able to defend their caravans and charges. The order to transport and safeguard the Ter'angreal was the last task the AoL Aiel were given, but it's not who they were. Culturally, the wasteland Aiel bare almost no resemblance to their namesake aside from a few legacy terms (i.e., cadin'sor, etc). By contrast, the Tinkers are much more similar to the Aiel seen in Rand's vision, dancing and singing in the crop fields.
  10. Is the point of this thread to find examples of things Jordan mentions in one book, but not in others? Because if so, you could have made that more clear in the OP. Otherwise it just looks like you're griping about things and then flippantly dismissing any rationale that's offered. As I said in my previous post, there's a ton of things that only get mentioned once: sword forms; towns; citizens, book titles. It seems boring and tedious to try compiling an exhaustive list.
  11. Yep! The whole Berelain /Faile thing felt like RJ was just being indulgent. It could have been resolved within one book, but dragged on and on and just got tiresome.
  12. The phrase could be a mistake, or it could be Jordan hinting that the two cultures at one time shared roots. A quick word-search for cloudberries came back with two results. The first, Perrin accuses Rand of "picking cloudberries" when he pits himself between the Tower AS and the Salidar AS. The second appearance is in Ebou Dar, where Birgitte offers Nyneave some mint & cloudberry tea. There may be more examples, but I didn't care enough to delve deeper. I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make bringing this up... seems like cloudberries are just some type of fruit. ::shrug:: I think "strawberries" is meantioned only once or twice as well. And aspargus (or perhaps brocoli) is described, but never named, as a strange new vegetable foreign to the Two Rivers. These types of "throwaway" comments are peppered all throughout the novels. I wouldn't worry too much about it.
  13. How are you quantifying their rank amongst fighters? "Top 2%" is an oddly specific conclusion. Besides, I think I would disagree. There isn't much evidence that ALL Fades are exquisite fighters. We've seen them killed fairly easily by a number of characters. I think it's the Fade's other abilities that make them formidable to the uninitiated. Their fear gaze can cripple even the stoutest warrior, making them perform under their potential. And Fades are fast and wiry, which can surprise someone accustomed to fighting only other humans.
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