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Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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But the shadow did know Rand was in there as those 5 darkfriends tried to get by Thom, Lanfear certainly knew and Slayer.

 

Moghedean was spying on Mat the entire time.  Surely she would have known if that was LTT or not.

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Alright, last post on the subject, I have said what I wanted to say already bar one final piece. 

 

It was a plot driven by need, not anything that was remotely real. As I said, RJ and Brandon needed to keep Demandred away from Shayol Ghul. If he went there with his Sharan army, Rand was screwed and the world burnt and Demandred truly would have been the Dragonslayer. 

 

Of course, that can't happen. Rand needs to win. 

 

So they needed to create a semi-plausible scenario to keep him at Merrilor. The reasoning was there - it makes sense. But it isn't done very well. 

 

I don't have a problem if Demandred hit his head, went crazy and started frothing at the mouth. I would be disappointed, but at least it would be understandable and real. 

 

However, he is supposed to be a great general. He is shown to be cool, calculated and cunning. He waited 14 books before deciding to attack Rand when others, with less hatred, couldn't resist attacking - like Sammael. 

 

What the problem is for me is that his character is compromised for the plot. That's what I liked about RJ, the characters drove the plot in most cases. However, here the plot drives the character. 

 

All evidence- from prior books to common sense - points to the fact that Demandred should have know better, however, the plot needed a bad guy to shoot laser beams and speak via loudspeaker, so the character is compromised. 

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Honestly, I would have actually liked him to show up at Shayol Ghul, after Rand can prove to Élan Morin that he can grant the latter the eternal peace he so long has sought.

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Honestly, I would have actually liked him to show up at Shayol Ghul, after Rand can prove to Élan Morin that he can grant the latter the eternal peace he so long has sought.

demy takes out aviendha cadsuane and co

 

demy about to finish his off his bitter rival LTT only to sideburned by Moridin.

 

Demy's last words...'Why elan why.....you traitor!!!

 

Would have been a fitting end for barid bel maidar

Edited by Elan Tedronai

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Honestly, I would have actually liked him to show up at Shayol Ghul, after Rand can prove to Élan Morin that he can grant the latter the eternal peace he so long has sought.

demy takes out aviendha cadsuane and co

 

demy about to finish his off his bitter rival LTT only to sideburned by Moridin.

 

Demy's last words...'Why elan why.....you traitor!!!

 

Would have been a fitting end for barid bel maidar

 

Heh, I admit that would have been something. Then Moridin takes on the Sharan army? But Rand comes back when the Horn is blown and destroys them all, then goes on to seal the bore? 

 

That I could have believed. If it seemed a bit LotR movie version army of the dead, it wouldn't have been too bad. 

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My 2 cents again since people are being logical and what not..War of Shadow was 10 year long protracted war. Only when Light was about to lose, LTT launched a sneak attack on SG to seal away the DO. That plan had good chance of failure and he had over 110 powerful male Aes Sedai with him. Rand could not have pulled same stunt this time again. Shadow had no idea Rand had a knife that can shield him from DO. LTT didn't. Even then, Moridin was waiting. Why would Demandred be guarding the bore? Shadow needed no protection this time. Moridin was key to Rand's victory. Imagine if he wasn't there! Lets keep the vitriol out of the forum. People hate the book. Good. We are entitled to our opinion. I have hated the entire series and yet enjoyed reading it. This book has much to dislike. Mat/Demandred's supposed war genius sounded too amateurish too me. Demandred had a Sa'angreal. DarkHounds came too late. Rand "grabbed" DO and almost "choked" it to death.

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Alright, last post on the subject, I have said what I wanted to say already bar one final piece. 

 

It was a plot driven by need, not anything that was remotely real. As I said, RJ and Brandon needed to keep Demandred away from Shayol Ghul. If he went there with his Sharan army, Rand was screwed and the world burnt and Demandred truly would have been the Dragonslayer. 

 

Of course, that can't happen. Rand needs to win. 

 

So they needed to create a semi-plausible scenario to keep him at Merrilor. The reasoning was there - it makes sense. But it isn't done very well. 

 

I don't have a problem if Demandred hit his head, went crazy and started frothing at the mouth. I would be disappointed, but at least it would be understandable and real. 

 

However, he is supposed to be a great general. He is shown to be cool, calculated and cunning. He waited 14 books before deciding to attack Rand when others, with less hatred, couldn't resist attacking - like Sammael. 

 

What the problem is for me is that his character is compromised for the plot. That's what I liked about RJ, the characters drove the plot in most cases. However, here the plot drives the character. 

 

All evidence- from prior books to common sense - points to the fact that Demandred should have know better, however, the plot needed a bad guy to shoot laser beams and speak via loudspeaker, so the character is compromised. 

 

 

Perhaps Demandred was simply "ordered" to actually fight the troops. Demandred kept asking for a chance to kill LTT and Moridin kept slapping his hand.

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Honestly, I would have actually liked him to show up at Shayol Ghul, after Rand can prove to Élan Morin that he can grant the latter the eternal peace he so long has sought.

demy takes out aviendha cadsuane and co

 

demy about to finish his off his bitter rival LTT only to sideburned by Moridin.

 

Demy's last words...'Why elan why.....you traitor!!!

 

Would have been a fitting end for barid bel maidar

 

That would have been awesome.

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I always knew Lan was #1 from EoTW, greatest blademaster ever, yes, I never got the feeling Galad was #1 even after reading FoH (he only took out rabble), Lan has been fighting Myddraaal and Trolllocs routinely, not to mention Aiel in the War.

 

All the Light forces were exhausted, but even if Galad was fresh, Demandred was several leagues above in skill and experience. Lan on the other hand: "Lan had been fighting for an entire day"..."Perhaps if they had come ot the fight evenly, it would be different". There isn't a blademaster in any Age that Lan cannot defeat, with the possible exception of LTT ta'avern.

 

Demandred: "No one of this AGE has such skill". "Lews Therin?" "It IS you behind that face, isn't it?".

 

Demandred was lucky Rand Sedai was not there to spank him, but instead was wrecking Shai'tan.

That quote you provided, well the paragraph begins with "Despite Lan's initial offensive, Demandred was the better swordsman, Lan knew this...."

 

The way I interpret the statement "Perhaps if they had come to the fight evenly, it would be different" is that sword fighting and duelling is laced with danger in the sense that the best will not win 100% of the time, too many variables. (ie Demandred>Lan but Lan could win on a given day). I certainly wouldn't be stating in the story that one fighter is the better swordsman bc the other was fatigued, surely there would be a better way to paint the picture?

Edited by Black-veiled Aiel

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Just out of curiosity, was there ever any mention of Demandred's sword-prowess prior to AMOL?  I never thought of Demandred as having any interest in the sword, then all of a sudden he's the greatest blademaster in the series.  I'm wondering if I missed something...

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Seemed to me that the Power became ordinary in the Last Battle. There was none of the wonder that we felt when we see Rand blasting apart an entire Seanchan army with Callandor in about 3 seconds, or Dumai's Wells. Demandred has a stronger sa'angreal than Callandor, a circle of 72 and he kills what, 20,000 people over like a week!? Come on. Even with the Light's channelers, I dunno what he's doing. With that much of the Power, he should be able to scour the land clean! He also, for no reason, stands completely still and has 3 different people come up and try to stab him! He shows no skill with the Power, as we already know that wearing the medallion hardly makes you invulnerable. He throws a few rocks............., when he is wielding more of saidin than any person except Rand at the cleansing/when he went a bit crazy in tGS. Oh, I dunno. Was quite happy to see that he had met a Sharan girl, pretty random  considering we don't know who he is or who she is, but was nice to see a bit of depth to him. Bao the Wyld was a nice touch. Still can't get over why he didn't just have his guards cut them apart. Okay, we know he's prideful and a fantastic swordsman, but as he even states these guys come up from nowhere trying to stab him in the back, only focusing on killing him. He should just buried them under a ton of rocks, or thrown 500 of his own men at them. Seems pretty pathetic tossing a few rocks that don't even knock them to the floor LOL. The Sharan army was decent. Glad there was finally an opposition other than loads of trollocs. 

Just my two cents.

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Demandred has a stronger sa'angreal than Callandor, a circle of 72 and he kills what, 20,000 people over like a week!? Come on. Even with the Light's channelers, I dunno what he's doing. With that much of the Power, he should be able to scour the land clean!

With this much power he should be able to level mountains and raise volcanoes, sink continents and create country-wideearthquakes.

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Just out of curiosity, was there ever any mention of Demandred's sword-prowess prior to AMOL?  I never thought of Demandred as having any interest in the sword, then all of a sudden he's the greatest blademaster in the series.  I'm wondering if I missed something...

 

There wasnt no, but it makes sense. He competed with Lews Therin on everything. And since Lews Therin was a blademaster, theres no reason why Demandred wouldnt have done so just so Lews Therin would be even further ahead of them in the awesome stakes. Not to mention, Demandred strikes me as the sort of person who wants to be good at everything, and theres no way he would allow Sammael and Be`lal to have such an edge over him.

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My 2 cents again since people are being logical and what not..War of Shadow was 10 year long protracted war. Only when Light was about to lose, LTT launched a sneak attack on SG to seal away the DO. That plan had good chance of failure and he had over 110 powerful male Aes Sedai with him. Rand could not have pulled same stunt this time again. Shadow had no idea Rand had a knife that can shield him from DO. LTT didn't. Even then, Moridin was waiting. Why would Demandred be guarding the bore? Shadow needed no protection this time. Moridin was key to Rand's victory. Imagine if he wasn't there! Lets keep the vitriol out of the forum. People hate the book. Good. We are entitled to our opinion. I have hated the entire series and yet enjoyed reading it. This book has much to dislike. Mat/Demandred's supposed war genius sounded too amateurish too me. Demandred had a Sa'angreal. DarkHounds came too late. Rand "grabbed" DO and almost "choked" it to death.

 

 

 

Look the last battle in AMOL paled in comparison to war of power. The war of power lasted 10 friggin years. 10 years where you had powerful aes sedai and dreadlords fighting amd murdering each other to a stalemate.

 

Now bear in mind that those aes sedai in AOL would make a complete mockery of the current aes sedai and yet they were still being driven back. It showed that in a protracted conflict the bad guys will push you inevitably. Trollocs, fades, dreadlords, draghkars etc will just keep coming and the one power has limits. No one can channel forever. That's why the kal was built. to hold the shadow and their forces long enough for Lews therin and the aes sedai to come with a plan to seal the bore without any patches or seals

 

 

Demandred knew the history of how that war ended. Knew that battles are the secondary nature. The end game was always at shayol ghul. Secure shyol ghul and you secure the ownership of the land. It didnt matter what the forces of light did if the shadow owned shayol ghul so to speak. Rand destroyed the only thing that would have made mincemeat out of the shadow forces and that was choedan kal.

 

Instead he ventures out like a plain idiot into a battle that was completely meaningless while the object of his hate was busy righting the wrongs of AOL in shayol ghul

Edited by Elan Tedronai

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Ok- I dont entirely buy this, but i'll play Demandred's advocate for a second.

 

Why didn't he wreak more havoc? Because he was waiting for Rand to challenge him with Callandor and he intended to husband his strength in the meantime. The longer LTT didnt appear, the MORE important it became to retain his strength, since clearly LTT wasn't expending his own.

 

Why didn't Demandred realize Rand would be at SG? First, because he was fooled by Rand popping around battlefields. Second, because in his arrogance he didn't allow that another strategist could exist to his own and LTT's level, so he felt sure he was at Merrilor. Third- (and this one i think is important), Rand didn't have the Seals.

 

This again sorta showcases Rand's brilliance in 'selling the dummy', although perhaps accidentally. Let's consider- immediately before the LB, the most important topic by far on everyone's agendas was that Rand intended to break the seals- and THEN go to battle the DO. The entire world of the light was focused on this idea for weeks. It made perfect sense to assume this was Rand's strategy... the idea that he would go without the seals and hope for the best would be foreign to a pragmatist like Demandred. It goes against everything Rand had been pushing very hard for. So from Demandred's pov, Rand HAD to come looking for the seals before challenging the DO. Even if he sent an army to SG to secure the entrance, he would still want the seals in hand before actually entering the Pit of Doom. If anything, striking SG might be a distraction or a trap.

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However, I thought that the on-screen stuff we had from him was wasted. We are shown small snippets of his story (which I will go into below) that could have been truly great, yet we get him swordfighting 3 times! All which was basically fan-service, showing which order the Swordsmen ranked. So much wasted when we could have had more about THE SECOND MOST POWERFUL MALE SA'ANGREAL, or you know, HOW HE MANAGED TO GET AN ENTIRE NATION TO FOLLOW THE SHADOW WILLINGLY. Such a waste. That babbling and rambling hatred, that wasn't Demandred. As the post points out above, it was like he was some giant robot. Not Demandred. I am just happy we get something else. 

 

Having said that, the snippets we did get were my favourite part of his story. It confirmed my thoughts about Demandred's personality. He COULD have been the most well-developed Chosen. I think he was, but so much of it is only hinted at in the final book. A major error I thought, that Demandred was so absent from the series. I understand the whole "big surprise with Shara", but his story could have been one of the best arcs in the series. He and Asmodean were the only ones to show any depth of character in the Chosen. The others were evil cardboard targets, something to occupy Rand and co. until the Last Battle.

 

I am disappointed we only see small snippets of his story, but even that was enough to make him the most developed Chosen - and that says a lot about RJ's biggest failing IMO, the scorn and total disregard he wrote the other Chosen with, and even the DO itself. 

 

But getting back to my thoughts. I was very happy with his STORY. Bao the Wyld, saviour and Dragonslayer. I have always said he was more than just the Shadow's General, more than just his hatred of Lews Therin. I was right, but not in the way I thought. In fact, I believe it turned out better than my idea. Him abandoning the Shadow would have been good, but I liked the struggle he had even better. The tragedy of the situation, when he can't let go of his hatred, even though he wants to. 

 

I always knew he wasn't particularly evil, just twisted by his hatred, and I love how that showed. Him falling in love with Shendla, his "weakening" that Taim and Moghedien describe, the way he changed, and showed fondness to an old monk. His reasoning (obviously twisted by his hatred - which makes it all the more tragic) for fighting for the Shadow, the way he thinks he will re-make the Pattern to protect Shara. 

 

I just wish we saw more of his struggle. More of how he became bonded to Sakarnen, how he fulfilled the prophecies and became Bao the Wyld, of his "change" that the Sharans provoked. 

 

It may seem like a load of crap to many, and him killing and blasting the crap out of everyone is the only thing Demandred was in the story, but I am happy with it. Happy that it is confirmed, there was more to him than that!

 

Pretty much this.  I was disappointed with how Brandon handled Demandred's story.  I'll be honest and say that I haven't been overblown by the last few books that Brandon took over--they felt flat and, to my mind, did not do enough to push the plot forward at a satisfactory pace, nor were the stories particularly interesting.  When I read Demandred's plot arc, the entire time I thought to myself that this was great material--potentially a very compelling story that could have been a major focus of an entire book.  I would have loved to read about Demandred's exploits in Shara moreso than any of the events that happened, for example, with Elayne's plot arc in the last three books.  It also would have been nice for him to appear earlier in the series as the Wyld--just not enough time to develop basically a new character in a single book already packed full of other events.  Ultimately though, with so little screen time, he felt too two-dimensional.  It's the old show me don't tell me problem.  Oh he hates LTT so much that it twisted him to the shadow...sure...but how about showing me that hatred and how it weighed on his mind at a more complex level than a few dozen pages of battlefield taunting, or any inner struggle he might have had with his feelings about his followers and what he was doing--there are hints that he thought about life after victory over LTT.  It could have made for some good character development (and good storytelling) to dig deeper into his psyche.  He might have actually made a good tragic character. But, alas...not to be.

Edited by Lurks

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Damandred was awesome, but I felt there was one glaring issue with him, that being his power level was just too high. He was leading a FULL CIRCLE and using the most powerful sa'angreal left in the world since Rand had destroyed the Choeden Kal. Rand alone with a small angreal is enough to fight an army, Demandred should have simply wiped the armies of light off the map with a wave of his hand. 

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I really liked Demondred's role here. 

 

He was always second fiddle to the dragon, the man who could have been the Dragon Reborn. So what does he do here? he fulfills the prophecies of the dragon in a far away land. I assume this is the case because every land's prophecies come from dreamers- these dreamers surely dreamed of the dragon as well. Either that, or they dreamed of Demondred, who conquered them in a self fulfilling prophecy. From the tidbits that are explained, he had his own grand adventure, rose to his own greatness, conquered his own nation. Along the way, he somehow gained the second strongest male Sa' angreal, and a lover. None of these things NEED to be explained, though, as that's exactly who he is. He's the almost-dragon of the shadow, who's story was a shadow of the dragon's story. Distant example, but like Luigi's stories in the Paper Mario games.

 

I thought that was pretty brilliant. And I can understand his new fire to kill Rand now, since he's had his great story, and has fulfilled his destiny. Before, he was always second best, hated it, but accepted it. But now, the wind is blowing his way. It's his story now. It was finally his time to beat the Dragon and step out of his shadow. 

 

I understand his whole I AM DEMONDRED FIGHT ME was probably because that's what he expected was going to happen, since at the time he thought destiny was behind him. Rand was going to appear, and Demondred was going to beat him. That's what he knew would happen, regardless of how untrue it was. Because of that, he kept seeing Rand everywhere.

 

He's the guy finally made it big, and was going to shove it in his childhood bully's face, and never realized that the bully moved on a long time ago. You know, just on a much, much bigger scale.

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One possible reason he didn't nuke everyone: creating weaves like that, while powerful take a while to come into being and moving that amount of power around takes time and effort, thus they'd be easily disrupted by any of the AS on the battlefield, since strength doesn't seem to be a factor in cutting weaves, as far as I can remember. 

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One possible reason he didn't nuke everyone: creating weaves like that, while powerful take a while to come into being and moving that amount of power around takes time and effort, thus they'd be easily disrupted by any of the AS on the battlefield, since strength doesn't seem to be a factor in cutting weaves, as far as I can remember. 

Except that he had basically 330 or so channellers as a back up who would decimate any "weak" Aes Sedai who channelled near them. Breaking weaves is not simple of the Forsaken would have done it at the cleansing. You have to cut them using a counter-weave because if its done wrong they have unusual consequences. i.e big explosions/stilling everyone involved/make everyone high(okay im joking on that one)

 

But no Aes Sedai would be able to stop most of the weaves Demandred knows. Hell if he did a Rand and opened up a few dozen death gates and had them spinning about most who hadnt seen Rand do it would be in utter confusion whilst they died. and that doesnt count a lot of the other things he knows.

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I quite enjoyed Demandred's arc, and I could buy into his slightly insane desire to fight single handedly and prove he was the best as that is the main motivation behind his character.  Due to his protracted offscreen absence in Shara I had kind of forgotten about him a bit and didn't have the anger towards him that I felt towards some of the other Forsaken.  That took a little bit of the emotion out of the battles for me as the Light wasn't fighting a character I had been made to hate like Rahvin or Semirhage.  During his battle with Gawyn I really didn't care who won as I don't like Gawyn.  Whereas if Gawyn had been fighting a character who's evilness we had been shown throughout the book I would have wanted Gawyn to win.

 

I totally agree on the suggestion from other posters that he should have been able to wipe the forces of the Light off the table with a bat of his hand.  A full circle and an extremely powerful sa'angreal plus the strength and knowledge of the Forsaken?  Especially bearing in mind that the only channelers facing him for a good chunk of the battle with the Aes Sedai (during the absence of the Seanchan) who should have been numerically roughly matched by the Sharan channelers.  Rand's complete annihilation of the Shadow with an angreal makes no sense when compared with this.  The Fields of Merrilor should have been completely levelled, or at leastly completely destroy Elayne's forces as they were further from him. 

 

The fight with Lan was really enjoyable, and I found the aftermath where Rand shows the DO that Lan still lives, and Mat's armies see him lift Demandred's severed head was really emotional.  I was kind of surprised that Lan was given such a major role as he has always been more of a support character but I was really pleased to see him do something so important in the battle for the Light.

Edited by Rhienne

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