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Demandred's Arc (Full Spoilers)

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Mic, chalk it up to difference of opinion and move on, you're getting to heated for this.

 

For what it's worth, I don't feel Bel'al had any true development, to me he came off as a typical bad guy manipulator who had an informed ability regarding manipulation but never really showed much if any of it.

 

Edit: regarding the 3 duals, I didn't feel the outcomes were nessecarily obvious until Lan came into the picture. Given the Second fiddle nature and the way that type of character is ended in many many stories it would have been completely hilarious and appropriate for Gawyn the worthless sidekick to kill him. No Glorious death against one of our original heroes or Leaders of the battle, nope, you die to the sidekick.

 

I had similar feelings about Galad's activity as well. Demandred was always #2 to LTT, now he falls not to LTT Reborn but to his brother. Both fit well in the potential tragedy of Demandred's story.

Edited by KakitaOCU

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Mic, chalk it up to difference of opinion and move on, you're getting to heated for this.For what it's worth, I don't feel Bel'al had any true development, to me he came off as a typical bad guy manipulator who had an informed ability regarding manipulation but never really showed much if any of it.

I always liked the theory that his informed ability was a mocking title later treated as a straight one and that he was really a bit of a hack. He worked pretty well for a guy that only showed up for a few pages.

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Unlike all the other Forsaken he actually seemed to have fallen in love.  It was shown in his POV with Shendla.  I also thought the way he died to Lan was epic, it gave me chills.  Did I get sick of reading the names of swordforms, yes- too much detail- but I don't mind the champions riding up.  Though I think Lan should have died, but his it fit in with the samurai concept(though they were not superior to knights in skill, imo) that by accepting death were will surely live.

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Great villain, but his storyline was so rushed.  Would have loved to see a turn to the light, but things just don't work that way.  

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Very disappointed in the Demandred arc. I personally find it lazy and sloppy writing to plop this foreign army into the story right at the end. We know nothing about them. Just that Demandred spent his time in a disconnected part of the world before entering the fray at the very end...and failing miserably. The fact he spent the vast majority of his time in this disconnected area was incredibly stupid on his part. Look at how little knowledge he had about what was going on in Randland. If he had good sources of information, he would have known where Rand actually was. He would have known it was just Mat commanding. He would know who Mat really was, what his nature what. He wouldn't have been hesitant thinking Lews Therin was there commanding. His ignorance was astounding.

 

His behavior itself was completely baffling. He spends all this time behind the scenes, staying out of harm's way, being the tactful general...only to stand in the middle of a the huge bottle as some giant colossus shooting laser beams and idiotic challenges? A great general needs to be intelligent and strategic. Demandred was the exact opposite: ruled completely by his emotions, whining like a little kid. Then there were the ridiculous duels with the Gawyn, Galad and Lan. I felt no tension at all here. And dying to Lan was just silly. He has his Sharan army stand aside and let him duel? Such arrogance. No, not arrogance...total stupidity. And a departure from the Dem I loved throughout the books. Dem kept himself out of harm's way throughout the books. At the cleansing scene he ran from Damer for his life. 'Generals don't need to fight alongside the men they command', or something like that. What happened to him? Did he lose his mind?

 

Ignorance and arrogance ruined him. He fought like an idiot and he died like one. Such a letdown.

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Demandred had Moghedien infiltrated Mat's command centre, but he had doubts, whether the man was LTT or not.

 

Part of this because Rand took a great deal to come into various battle fronts using disguise (thus, it was possible that Mat was a disguise), part of this because Demandred did not believe that a man from Third Age can be on par with him, part of this maybe cautious of Moghedien's information.

 

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I actually felt his PoV voice seemed off in aMoL, it just wasnt the same as in the older books. I enjoyed it but when the DO asked him if he would unleash Balefire he was hesitant. So it shows he isnt a mindless idiot. Its strange parts of his character seems developed in aMoL and parts seem incredibly shallow. 

 

Personally I would have been more impressed if he had realised that Rand was at Shayul Ghul and gone "Moridin you B***** you lied to me." or if someone else had said it to him in combat and that was what cost him the battle.

 

I wish we had more background though, it makes me wonder if Ishammael had been setting up false prophecys in Shara for the past few thousand years, preparing it for one of the Forsaken to use. I think that must have been the case as it explains all the secrecy the Sharans had, not allowing people within their lands except a few specific cities, the only land which practices true slavery.

 

Im glad someone finally used a full circle but I felt that it was totally and completely wasted. he could have wiped out most of the armies he faced in moments rather than continue his "Face me LTT" crap which continued far too long when it was pretty obvious to anyone who is meant to be the General of the Dark's Armies that there is a large group of Light stopping people entering Shayul Ghul..

 

"Oh no Demandred they arent protecting the Dragon Reborn, they are waiting for Tesco's to open so they can buy some more milk and cookies."

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Demandred had Moghedien infiltrated Mat's command centre, but he had doubts, whether the man was LTT or not. Part of this because Rand took a great deal to come into various battle fronts using disguise (thus, it was possible that Mat was a disguise), part of this because Demandred did not believe that a man from Third Age can be on par with him, part of this maybe cautious of Moghedien's information.

Well, to me, it only further reinforces his ignorance and arrogance. The Shadow must have known where Rand was. Slayer knew. He couldn't pass that info on? Graendal was there. Thom kept killing disguised agents of the Shadow trying to get in the cavern. The information was there, the communication...sucked. But common sense should have told Dem that Rand/LTT true purpose is to face the DO, not command some battlefield. Which he would have known if he didn't spend all his time in a totally detached part of the world. And Demandred's arrogance that the Dragon's battle against him is more important than the Dragon's battle against the DO...come on, this guy was supposed to be brilliant. That is not brilliant.

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Demandred had Moghedien infiltrated Mat's command centre, but he had doubts, whether the man was LTT or not. Part of this because Rand took a great deal to come into various battle fronts using disguise (thus, it was possible that Mat was a disguise), part of this because Demandred did not believe that a man from Third Age can be on par with him, part of this maybe cautious of Moghedien's information.

 

Every member of the Forsaken knew the faces of the 3 Tav'eren. Moghedien would have known it wasnt LTT, she lied to Demandred on purpose, probably on Moridins orders, but its still a really weak plot line to hold Demandred there.

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I find it amusing that people think Demandred's arrogance that led him to fight three duels without anyone interfering was so out of character or otherwise ridiculous. Was it stupid of him? Clearly. Does it fit? I think so. He had been, up to that point, the untouchable Chosen, in his mind. No one knew where he was or what he was doing. He was feeling like it really was his time to shine. He felt invincible. Power drunk. These are all flaws inherent in almost all of the Forsaken.

 

Envy was his biggest vice. His envy of Lews Therin. I don't know why he would have assumed that the Dragon wasn't already at Shayol Ghul instead of on the battlefield while he was shouting for him, but he'd clearly already heard about Rand's skill with the blade, and that's how he wanted to face him. In this instance, it wasn't about the best battle tactics. It's been commented on before in the series... generals don't single-handedly duel the surviving members of an opposing army one by one until they're all dead. That's just the way it happens in stories. Except when you have an all-consuming desire to prove, for once and for all, that you are THE BEST at something in the entire world. Not second best anymore. The best. He couldn't prove it unless he fought each of them (Gawyn, Galad, Lan) and bested them with the sword. It wasn't just about winning. It was about proving that he was the best.

 

And then he wasn't. Envy is a bitch.

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Did anyone else find the sword duels highly unrealistic?  How does Gawyn, with the 3 bloodknife rings, and superspeed abilities not even get a scratch off on Demandred?  Yet both Galad and an exhausted Lan were able to take Demandred to the limit.  This just doesn't make much sense to me.  Especially after we saw how good Gawyn was without the bloodknife ter'angreal.

 

I can understand that demandred was done in by his ego to be the best.  Any smart general would have just immediately had Gawyn, Galad, or Lan killed.  Yet Demandred had to prove he could best any man in single combat. 

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I loved the Demandred arc.  One of the things I've always loved about The Wheel of Time was how Jordan kept certain things shrouded in mystery for such a long time.  It didn't bother me at all that Demandred suddenly appears with this massive Sharan army at the end.  I think we all knew that something big was going to happen with Demandred.  There's no reason to keep him (and Shara) hidden all that time otherwise.  Giving more clues or showing the backstory prior to FoM would have ruined the moment.  Holding one of the Forsaken back all this time was brilliant... it must have been very hard to resist telling more about him, knowing what was coming.

 

There was enough information on what he'd been doing and how it happened to satisfy me, but make me want more.  This is not a bad thing, to me.  We get this all the time in the series with Age of Legends, Seanchan home continent, etc.  We knew not everything was going to be explained.  Whether this was a matter of Jordan explicitly saying it shouldn't be fully explained, or him not leaving enough details for Sanderson (and who perhaps didn't want to invent that storyline), we may not know, but it fit with the series in my opinion.

 

Demandred was a total badass and I'd been waiting for a Forsaken like that forever, considering how so many others were complete throwaways (Be'lal and Rahvin in particular).  Karistina explained exactly how I feel about the duels and his behavior.

Edited by Crowl Rife

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I find it amusing that people think Demandred's arrogance that led him to fight three duels without anyone interfering was so out of character or otherwise ridiculous. Was it stupid of him? Clearly. Does it fit? I think so. He had been, up to that point, the untouchable Chosen, in his mind. No one knew where he was or what he was doing. He was feeling like it really was his time to shine. He felt invincible. Power drunk. These are all flaws inherent in almost all of the Forsaken.

 

Envy was his biggest vice. His envy of Lews Therin. I don't know why he would have assumed that the Dragon wasn't already at Shayol Ghul instead of on the battlefield while he was shouting for him, but he'd clearly already heard about Rand's skill with the blade, and that's how he wanted to face him. In this instance, it wasn't about the best battle tactics. It's been commented on before in the series... generals don't single-handedly duel the surviving members of an opposing army one by one until they're all dead. That's just the way it happens in stories. Except when you have an all-consuming desire to prove, for once and for all, that you are THE BEST at something in the entire world. Not second best anymore. The best. He couldn't prove it unless he fought each of them (Gawyn, Galad, Lan) and bested them with the sword. It wasn't just about winning. It was about proving that he was the best.

 

And then he wasn't. Envy is a bitch.

Demandred had built himself up to be the Savior for the Sharans and in fact I believe that he may have even though as himself as the Dragon Reborn for the DO per the DO prophesies.  He was arrogant and chose to direct his armies from the open and not from a central command location.  He thought of LT the same way and was sure that he was at this battle.  LT would not miss a battle like this and then trust his other people to run the battle operations.

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Demandred being a super uber swordfighter is really annoying, even more than other AoLers like LTT and Be'lal who at least were known to be fencing champions back then. Fencing is one thing, real swordfighting totally different.

 

BTW, the medallion Galad and Lan used was a copy, right? So Demandred could've killed them if he had channelled more powerful weaves at them, since the copies aren't as good as the original. Unless this was retconned....

Edited by David Selig

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Demandred being a super uber swordfighter is really annoying, even more than other AoLers like LTT and be'lal who at least were known to be fencing champions back then. Fencing is one thing, real swordfighting totally different. BTW, the medallion Galad and Lan used was a copy, right? So Demandred could've killed them if he had channelled more powerful weaves at them, since the copies aren't as good as the original. Unless this was retconned....

 

 

I'm pretty sure that this was a Sanderson-invention. Doesn't Demandred kind of crap himself during the cleansing battle and think about how as a general he wasn't expected to fight along his troops?

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Pandemonium, as BS said in an earlier interview, Gawyn is far luckier than he realizes. He's not as good as the others, he's incredibly lucky. It even shows in his fight with the bloodknives that he's lucky. He throws a slash where he hopes someone is and hit one in the neck. He through up his sword and hoped one struck low, and they did. He's definately good, and he definately has the right instincts, but he won his last fight because he was lucky. That built false confidence and lead him to making mistakes.

 

Edit: David, for what it's worth, sport fencers can be very dangerous fighters. I study the sword as a martial art, have for decades. I've had friends who were only sport fencers or kendoka come out to play with me and my group. While ultimately I'm a better fighter than them because of the overall training (I don't think in straight lines, I don't instinctively strike with only certain motions). But during those sparring matches I got "Killed" a LOT by those "sport" fencers. They think differently from a trained fighter, they're still every bit as fast as a trained fighter, and sometimes, because of the sport nature, they'll make gambles that would never be touched by a trained fighter and win.

 

Never underestimate another fighter just because they're not as "Martial' in their studies as you. :D

Edited by KakitaOCU

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I absolutely loved the Demandred arc and especially his appearance in aMoL even though the "gigant lazer shouting robot" thing touched  my mind . I mean from the very beginning he is the cool calculating man who unlike many of the forsaken are crude and calculating  (read long sighted ). And i absolutely love when he kicks Taims ass twice and esspecely when he hands him the sa'angreal and quietly ( not frantic or  imperious) tells him that he will die if he is a fool enough to use it agienst him ( mr D) . About the Shara thing , i think it was kind of anticlimactic but not bad , all the possible and impossible places had been mentioned and Shara was´t the worst choice .

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I'm pretty sure that this was a Sanderson-invention. Doesn't Demandred kind of crap himself during the cleansing battle and think about how as a general he wasn't expected to fight along his troops?

Yup.

 

WH

He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded!

That sure as hell went out the window.

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God what the hell...

 

I spend a lot of time on these forums every now and then, but overall I have only read the series cover to cover maybe twice.  I review different parts a bunch of times here and there when I'm bored and browsing WoT wiki, etc...but why the hell do I know these quotes like Demandred not being on the front lines from WH better than the new fricken author?

 

Just so freakin irritating and disappointing.

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God what the hell...

 

I spend a lot of time on these forums every now and then, but overall I have only read the series cover to cover maybe twice.  I review different parts a bunch of times here and there when I'm bored and browsing WoT wiki, etc...but why the hell do I know these quotes like Demandred not being on the front lines from WH better than the new fricken author?

 

Just so freakin irritating and disappointing.

 

Because you're competent?

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God what the hell...

 

I spend a lot of time on these forums every now and then, but overall I have only read the series cover to cover maybe twice.  I review different parts a bunch of times here and there when I'm bored and browsing WoT wiki, etc...but why the hell do I know these quotes like Demandred not being on the front lines from WH better than the new fricken author?

 

Just so freakin irritating and disappointing.

Because you're competent?

 

I am actually tempted to read one of Brandons books to see how he does with contradicting his own material.

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God what the hell...

 

I spend a lot of time on these forums every now and then, but overall I have only read the series cover to cover maybe twice.  I review different parts a bunch of times here and there when I'm bored and browsing WoT wiki, etc...but why the hell do I know these quotes like Demandred not being on the front lines from WH better than the new fricken author?

 

Just so freakin irritating and disappointing.

"Fighting on the front lines of a war" and "dueling someone one-on-one" aren't the same thing.

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God what the hell...

 

I spend a lot of time on these forums every now and then, but overall I have only read the series cover to cover maybe twice.  I review different parts a bunch of times here and there when I'm bored and browsing WoT wiki, etc...but why the hell do I know these quotes like Demandred not being on the front lines from WH better than the new fricken author?

 

Just so freakin irritating and disappointing.

"Fighting on the front lines of a war" and "dueling someone one-on-one" aren't the same thing.

Except he did both...

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God what the hell...

 

I spend a lot of time on these forums every now and then, but overall I have only read the series cover to cover maybe twice.  I review different parts a bunch of times here and there when I'm bored and browsing WoT wiki, etc...but why the hell do I know these quotes like Demandred not being on the front lines from WH better than the new fricken author?

 

Just so freakin irritating and disappointing.

Because you're competent?

 

no need to insult BS like that

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