Demandred: What would you do?

[Trevelyan]

Persoanlly I would like everything to happen the same except.......Lan actually dies! I think it would bring full circle what he taught Rand on that tower in Fal Dara, the whole sheathing the sword concept. Because lets face it, we read the entire books knowing Lan would die....then when he survives its abit like buhhh?

 

"There will come a time when you must achieve a goal at all costs. It may come in attack or in defense. And the only way will be to allow the sword to be sheathed in your own body.... when the price is worth the gain, and there is no other choice left to you. That is called Sheathing the Sword. Remember it." -LM

 

I think defeating one of the Forsaken gravitates enough to this.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

Persoanlly I would like everything to happen the same except.......Lan actually dies! I think it would bring full circle what he taught Rand on that tower in Fal Dara, the whole sheathing the sword concept. Because lets face it, we read the entire books knowing Lan would die....then when he survives its abit like buhhh?

 

"There will come a time when you must achieve a goal at all costs. It may come in attack or in defense. And the only way will be to allow the sword to be sheathed in your own body.... when the price is worth the gain, and there is no other choice left to you. That is called Sheathing the Sword. Remember it." -LM

 

I think defeating one of the Forsaken gravitates enough to this.

 

Yes. Ironically, I think Egwene and Aviendha's arcs and climactic battles had more to do with ultimately embracing this concept than any other character, including Rand - at least in this Turning. I can't really count Mat's loss of his eye, because it didn't really seem to inconvenience him much. 

[Agitel]

I wouldn't have minded Gawyn taking Demandred down. I foresaw him going to hunt Demandred pretty early. I think it could have worked with Galad and the foxhead medallion, too. Three fights was a little much, though.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Agitel

[Mr Ares]

This is clearly an epic fantasy, and you want the fight to be logical and practical? Come on, of course it's going to be epic with Lan sheating the sword. Yes, why would Demandred go for a swordfight? Because it's seems more epic. Of course a fight with the One Power could also be equally epic, with a swordfight was chosen. And thank god to that, because I prefer swordsfights to power-fights.

I would rather things make sense than were just put in the the sake of "being epic". Whatever happens has to be something that makes sense in terms of the characters - if the characters have to act out of character in order to get you the epic moment, then the writer is doing something wrong. He's trying to force a conclusion rather than letting things come to a head naturally. Both Robert Jordan and Brandon Sanderson are capable of having epic moments that make sense in character. This wasn't one. The problem is, not everyone is left thinking about how awesome and epic it is - some are left thinking things like how did Lan get to him, why is Demandred's security so bad, why are all the Sharan archers so rubbish, are we really supposed to be believe that Two Rivers archers are clinically incapable of missing their target, why is Demandred engaging in a sword fight anyway? Now, Lan killing Demandred in a sword fight is not an unworkable idea, but you need to set it up right, and you need to execute it right.

One thing though, I thought it would be a one-to-one fight against Mat, not Lan. And that would be more epic, general against general in a last battle. Also, my naive side, wanted Demandred to be shocked realising Mat's the general that outplayed him (not that he was LTT). 

 

Also, Demandred seems to be the only Forsaken who was really hard to kill. Gawyn dying, trying to be a hero. Galad almost dying trying to do the right thing. Now, why Lan? As someone said somewhere, Lan was already a badass. The fight should have gone to Mat in my opinion. Still, Demandreds death was good. He died in the midst of the battle, one-on-one swordfight. 

Mat is not the sort of guy who would seek out a one on one fight, nor would he be eager to accept. Neither is Demandred the sort of guy who would seek it out, not with anyone besides LTT - and he had no reason to conclude Mat was LTT. How would a one on one fight between Mat and Demandred come about? Why would they fight it?

[Rhienne]

I am adding my vote to the idea of having other circles of 72 facing Demandred.  I just do not understand why the Light-side didn't make their own circles. I think this would have helped on a number of fronts.  It would solve the problem of why Demandred+full circle+sa'angreal didn't just decimate the Light forces - if his circle had its hands full facing circles of Lightside channelers it would have sensibly kept them from just balefiring the whole forces of the Light.

 

I also think it would have made for a more believable set-up of Demandred engaging sword fights.  As it stands it just doesn't make sense that Demandred and his circle are standing around on top of a hill watching lone swordsmen come up and attack him.  Yes, they have the foxhead medallion but surely all of the Sharan army would be capable of sticking a few arrows in Galad and Lan (if not Gawyn because of the rings).  If we had had 2+ full circles fighting each other I think there would have been much more chaos (i.e. Demandred wouldn't have just been sitting perched on a hill waiting for swordsmen to come and challenge him, which did feel very anime/videogame-ish), with land being ripped up and the whole topography of the battlefield concievably changing rapidly.  In that kind of scenario Gawyn/Galad/Lan would have been able to get closer to Demandred more realistically.

 

I still think the three of them facing him one by one was a bit silly.  I would have preferred Gawyn to go out in an actual blaze of glory cutting a way out of the Sharan camp for him and Egwene.  Then I would have had some real chaos with circles leading to Lightsiders getting much closer to Demandred with the battle being taken right to him.  At that point Galad could have seen an opportunity to target Demandred (possibly distracted by looking for a way to get out of the thick of the battle), and attacked him.  I found it implausible that Galad had his arm chopped off but wasn't finished off by someone on the battlefield, so I would have had Lan coming to the rescue as Galad lost his arm, giving Galad a more plausible way to be carried off to Mayene, and removing the boss battle feel that the scene had.

 

For me, it worked for Lan to kill Demandred.  I liked the fact that he got to strike a real blow at the Shadow (possibly the most important other than Rand's defeat of the DO), having committed his whole life to fighting them.  And I don't think Mat would have worked.  Having two generals fighting each other would have been ridiculous given that there shouldn't be any reason they would end up facing each other as generals are meant to stay apart from the main battle.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Rhienne

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

I am adding my vote to the idea of having other circles of 72 facing Demandred.  I just do not understand why the Light-side didn't make their own circles. I think this would have helped on a number of fronts.  It would solve the problem of why Demandred+full circle+sa'angreal didn't just decimate the Light forces - if his circle had its hands full facing circles of Lightside channelers it would have sensibly kept them from just balefiring the whole forces of the Light.

 

I also think it would have made for a more believable set-up of Demandred engaging sword fights.  As it stands it just doesn't make sense that Demandred and his circle are standing around on top of a hill watching lone swordsmen come up and attack him.  Yes, they have the foxhead medallion but surely all of the Sharan army would be capable of sticking a few arrows in Galad and Lan (if not Gawyn because of the rings).  If we had had 2+ full circles fighting each other I think there would have been much more chaos (i.e. Demandred wouldn't have just been sitting perched on a hill waiting for swordsmen to come and challenge him, which did feel very anime/videogame-ish), with land being ripped up and the whole topography of the battlefield concievably changing rapidly.  In that kind of scenario Gawyn/Galad/Lan would have been able to get closer to Demandred more realistically.

 

I still think the three of them facing him one by one was a bit silly.  I would have preferred Gawyn to go out in an actual blaze of glory cutting a way out of the Sharan camp for him and Egwene.  Then I would have had some real chaos with circles leading to Lightsiders getting much closer to Demandred with the battle being taken right to him.  At that point Galad could have seen an opportunity to target Demandred (possibly distracted by looking for a way to get out of the thick of the battle), and attacked him.  I found it implausible that Galad had his arm chopped off but wasn't finished off by someone on the battlefield, so I would have had Lan coming to the rescue as Galad lost his arm, giving Galad a more plausible way to be carried off to Mayene, and removing the boss battle feel that the scene had.

 

For me, it worked for Lan to kill Demandred.  I liked the fact that he got to strike a real blow at the Shadow (possibly the most important other than Rand's defeat of the DO), having committed his whole life to fighting them.  And I don't think Mat would have worked.  Having two generals fighting each other would have been ridiculous given that there shouldn't be any reason they would end up facing each other as generals are meant to stay apart from the main battle.

 

The Lightside did use smaller Circles - the problem was that the Black Tower did not have many LS Ashaman left, which limited the maximum amount and most of the Aes Sedai didn't trust the less experienced Asha'man to lead. Also, Egwene and her senior advisors actually commented that they would need to form a Circle to match a Circle of 72 and deal with Demandred's forces, but the whole logistics and tactics necessary would have been essentially walking into a trap - with so many channelers concentrated without the ability to defend themselves, they would need to commit more channelers to defending the Circle and Demandred could have wiped out many of them in the same way that Aviendha's Circle was being destroyed point by one (p.592) but on a larger scale. Also, IIRC (this might belong more in the Battle Thread), but IIRC Demandred came out occasionally to scream  but it was actually Mazrim Taim leading the bulk of the Sharan dreadlords who were in that massive One Power battle with the White and Black Tower on the western side. Most of the LS Channelers had to be very selective about who they Linked with and when. We know that Circles are best for focused channeling, but in a battle this large with multiple enemy channelers, having groups of channelers with similar Talents, other groups with male channelers Linked with female channelers, and still other groups where a male and female are Linked while any other males or females nearby are on defense and recon like Androl and Pevara's group seemed the only way to hold their ground. Also, a male must lead a Circle of 72. I think this meant that Egwene wouldn't be able to lead, which would have been a disadvantage considering that, frankly, she had gained more battle experience through being forced and because of her innate skills than any Aes Sedai or Ashaman on the field. I was actually thinking that reversing and inverting weaves would have been more useful to counter Demandred's channelers - most of them didn't seem to know that technique and reversing/inverting would have allowed the AS to bypass their defenses and those skills can't be learned from observation. I would have loved to see some creativity here - maybe a massive inverted an reversed Gateway falls on top of the Sharans, sending them to a stedding, where Dragons completely surround their position and pulverizing them. Demandred wouldn't have been prepared for that. Or even better, a massive inverted and reversed Gateway right on top of the Circle, lead by a LS Circle of 72 with Androl at the head channeling through another Gateway, and dump lava right on top of Demandred before he even knew what was happening or, to give Gawyn's sacrifice more gravitas, performed while he had Demandred's attention knowing that he would die.

 

I am in agreement with some of the criticisms in the Battle Thread that if they had really needed to smash the opposing armies as quickly as possible, it would have made more sense to have the Circles of 72 send completely focused attacks directly on top of the Shadow armies with the fewest dreadlords at the very start of the three front battle and while they were at full strength, essentially nuking the brunt of the Shadow's trollocs and Myrdraal. As Ripley said "It's the only way to be sure." It's really a shame that the LS channelers on all fronts didn't have a Great Captain of Channeling, to really match Demandred on the OP strategic side. A creative thinker who could put together the hundreds of Talents they had access to into a coherent patchwork quilt of tactics and strategem could have won most of the fights, even without a complete understanding of mundane strategy. It would have been great to see Egwene or someone completely unexpected like Sharina Melloy or Bode Cauthon to suggest cataloguing each Sister and Ashaman's Talents, work out rough calculations for what power level each one has, and work out an idea as to which Circles could operate at the highest capacity with a limited amount of channelers the whole idea being that a Circle with a channeler strong in Fire in the Lead could do a lot of damage even if that channeler isn't that strong and one with a channeler with a Travelling Talent like Androl can open up many creative uses of time and space).

Edited March 13, 2013 by RugbyPlayingAshaman

[Rhienne]

 

The Lightside did use smaller Circles - the problem was that the Black Tower did not have many LS Ashaman left, which limited the maximum amount and most of the Aes Sedai didn't trust the less experienced Asha'man to lead. Also, Egwene and her senior advisors actually commented that they would need to form a Circle to match a Circle of 72 and deal with Demandred's forces, but the whole logistics and tactics necessary would have been essentially walking into a trap - with so many channelers concentrated without the ability to defend themselves, they would need to commit more channelers to defending the Circle and Demandred could have wiped out many of them in the same way that Aviendha's Circle was being destroyed point by one (p.592) but on a larger scale.

 

They wouldn't have needed that many AS.  For a circle of 72 you only need 6 male channelers.  I also don't see why it wouldn't be possible to have a circle of 72 doing major damage, protected by a number of smaller circles.  If the Light had had a group doing as much damage to the Sharan army as Demandred's circle allegedly did, they could taken out an enormous number of troops.  To get round the issue of having an AS lead the circle, they could have had a circle of 71 rather than 72.

 

I think part of the problem comes down to the reduced number of Lightside channelers relative to what there should have been.  The number of Wise Ones should have provided enough channelers for 10+ circles of 71/72 (which would only require 60 AS and 10 AS (to lead if circle of 71)).  Or the Kin could have been used, leaving all the AS and Sul'dam/damane free to act in small circles or as individuals.

[Suttree]

The Lightside did use smaller Circles - the problem was that the Black Tower did not have many LS Ashaman left, which limited the maximum amount and most of the Aes Sedai didn't trust the less experienced Asha'man to lead.

How do you figure? They had more than enough LS ashaman left, they simply disappeared from the story like a number of the other channeling groups.

 

Master Ablar is good with the numbers for that. Perhaps he could break down the actuals?

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

 

The Lightside did use smaller Circles - the problem was that the Black Tower did not have many LS Ashaman left, which limited the maximum amount and most of the Aes Sedai didn't trust the less experienced Asha'man to lead.

How do you figure? They had more than enough LS ashaman left, they simply disappeared from the story like a number of the other channeling groups.

 

Master Ablar is good with the numbers for that. Perhaps he could break down the actuals?

 

I was thinking that we have to account for at least two major losses for both groups and the usual fatigue issue which reduces who could usefully be on the battlefield at any point. 1) Major Loss for Aes Sedai: The Arrival of the Sharans at the Kandori battlefield, Major Loss for Ashaman: The defection of Dreadlords and the Battle at the Black Tower's losses, 2) Major Loss 2: Off-screen deaths at the battlefield at Merrilor similar to Siuan's or when a Bondmate dies and then we'd have to account for the fatigue factor which is so individual and subjective that it just leaves you open to plot convenience: Stronger channelers like Egwene, Aviendha and Elayne felt tired to their bone, but they forced themselves to their feet and continued channeling strongly and effectively but weaker channelers, like the ones at Egwene's last stand were so tired that their lines broke and they couldn't cover their own withdrawal. I recall Siuan and/or Egwene hearing a report of the survivors after the Sharan's arrival in Kandor (this seems to have reduced their numbers by a 3rd) but it didn't seem as if a similar accounting was given for the Ashaman. 

 

The numbers seem set up to be fuzzy, but it just seems to me that between the amount of attacks flying from the sheer numbers of Sharan channelers were just hammering the LS so badly that most of the LS Circles just weren't faring that well until Egwene gave them a reason to focus on defense while she attacked.

 

Also, battlefield conditions make it even worse. You essentially had women running around in colorful clothing and men wearing distinctive outfits that stood out to the Sharan channelers, so they would just be targets if they were in a Circle and unable to defend themselves. Even with gateways, they couldn't get away instantly if things turned against them, so every time they had to reset or fall back, we'd have to account for time spent getting from the front lines to a place where they could recover, making them targets in the way that Romanda was. I think it is easy to overestimate a Circle's usefulness on a battlefield, though - Demandred and Mazrim's Circles, respectively, could most likely complete destroy every channeler in a weaker Circle with a focused attack, and take out other channelers nearby, as well, while the weaker Circles would be unable to defend against the more powerful Circles' attacks or get a moment to attack while other Sharans were attacking its' members. Considering how quickly Egwene's support was decimated with balefire, it just seems like this was a bloodbath on the LS channelers side.

[Suttree]

I agree on the effictiveness of circles. We see Cadsuane voice similar thoughts during the fog attack when they aren't sure where the next strike will come from.

[Pinzarn]

I would have changed it up only slightly.

 

Let Gawyn head off to find Demandred using the bloodrings.  While he is going there, Egwene dies.  So now Gawyn is filled with the warder rage.  The bloodrings plus the warder rage lets Gawyn succeed, but he still dies.  So the body count remains the same.

 

Galad shouldn't have ever fought Demandred.  He always does what is right, and that was not "right" in the grand scheme of things.  I viewed Galad's attempt at Demandred as selffish.

 

Lan had already accomplished enough at the Gap and then again at FoM.  Killing Demandred just seemed like another accomplishment that gets lost in everything he did.

[sVieira151]

Whereas Galad viewed it as selfless. He viewed it as giving up himself for the greater good. Plus, Galad was ordered (I think? can't remember).

[Lord D]

My views of justice are not very pleasant to many others.  So if it was up to me, I'd have tried to capture Demandred alive.  Then after the LB he could be tried for war crimes, found guilty, and put to death by slow impalement.  Many evil women but few evil men in the series get fates worse than death (see my thread discussing those fates), so a barbaric method of execution would even the scores.

[RugbyPlayingAshaman]

My views of justice are not very pleasant to many others.  So if it was up to me, I'd have tried to capture Demandred alive.  Then after the LB he could be tried for war crimes, found guilty, and put to death by slow impalement.  Many evil women but few evil men in the series get fates worse than death (see my thread discussing those fates), so a barbaric method of execution would even the scores.

 

I would have loved if Demandred ended up collared with the male a'dam (too bad Rand destroyed the only one confirmed to still exist) or Shielded and judged by the Hall. I really like it when villains built up to be so amazing and mysterious are taken down by characters they generally underestimate.

[BFG]

 

My views of justice are not very pleasant to many others.  So if it was up to me, I'd have tried to capture Demandred alive.  Then after the LB he could be tried for war crimes, found guilty, and put to death by slow impalement.  Many evil women but few evil men in the series get fates worse than death (see my thread discussing those fates), so a barbaric method of execution would even the scores.

 

I would have loved if Demandred ended up collared with the male a'dam (too bad Rand destroyed the only one confirmed to still exist) or Shielded and judged by the Hall. I really like it when villains built up to be so amazing and mysterious are taken down by characters they generally underestimate.

 

Rand destroyed one of the copies that Semi had.  But when she was captured she had 6 in total, so there are still 5 in circulation, or hidden by Cads (is probably more accurate), although a moot point as regards Demandred.

[MasterAblar]

 

 

The Lightside did use smaller Circles - the problem was that the Black Tower did not have many LS Ashaman left, which limited the maximum amount and most of the Aes Sedai didn't trust the less experienced Asha'man to lead.

How do you figure? They had more than enough LS ashaman left, they simply disappeared from the story like a number of the other channeling groups.

 

Master Ablar is good with the numbers for that. Perhaps he could break down the actuals?

 

I was thinking that we have to account for at least two major losses for both groups and the usual fatigue issue which reduces who could usefully be on the battlefield at any point. 1) Major Loss for Aes Sedai: The Arrival of the Sharans at the Kandori battlefield, Major Loss for Ashaman: The defection of Dreadlords and the Battle at the Black Tower's losses, 2) Major Loss 2: Off-screen deaths at the battlefield at Merrilor similar to Siuan's or when a Bondmate dies and then we'd have to account for the fatigue factor which is so individual and subjective that it just leaves you open to plot convenience: Stronger channelers like Egwene, Aviendha and Elayne felt tired to their bone, but they forced themselves to their feet and continued channeling strongly and effectively but weaker channelers, like the ones at Egwene's last stand were so tired that their lines broke and they couldn't cover their own withdrawal. I recall Siuan and/or Egwene hearing a report of the survivors after the Sharan's arrival in Kandor (this seems to have reduced their numbers by a 3rd) but it didn't seem as if a similar accounting was given for the Ashaman. 

 

Nah, the numbers were completely off. Logain brought 100 to Elayne, there's another 46 that went with the Aes Sedai that came to bond them, Taim had a 100 darkfriends according to Demandred, and there a few already outside of the BT from the beginning of the book. Even counting the darkfriends who died at the BT, it probably comes out to around 300. There were already 448 in tPoD, chapter 14. That grew to around 500 at the beginning of WH. Seeing as that was less that halfway between Taim's arrival in Caemlyn and the beginning of aMoL, there should have been around 1000 Asha'man easy, and a little less than half of those out of the BT thanks to Rand's order in KoD. So basically more than 2/3 of the Asha'man just plain disappeared like Suttree said. And pretty much all of them were lightsiders.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Master Ablar

[Saurabh]

On 3/13/2013 at 9:05 AM, Pinzarn said:

I would have changed it up only slightly.

 

Let Gawyn head off to find Demandred using the bloodrings.  While he is going there, Egwene dies.  So now Gawyn is filled with the warder rage.  The bloodrings plus the warder rage lets Gawyn succeed, but he still dies.  So the body count remains the same.

 

Galad shouldn't have ever fought Demandred.  He always does what is right, and that was not "right" in the grand scheme of things.  I viewed Galad's attempt at Demandred as selffish.

 

Lan had already accomplished enough at the Gap and then again at FoM.  Killing Demandred just seemed like another accomplishment that gets lost in everything he did.

I would love to see Gawyn, Loghain & Mat fight Demandred together. Gawyn with the rings, Loghain with an Angreal and Mat with the OG Foxhead. 

With the AS and their bonded Asha’man fighting the Sharan circle. 
Hope the TV serial fixes this

[Thrasymachus]

What is going on here?  I don't understand how this level of thread-necromancy has become so common.  Are people just doing Google searches now that the TV show is reaching more mainstream levels of consciousness and not realizing they're replying to threads that are half a decade or more (or much more) old?

[Elder_Haman]

18 hours ago, Thrasymachus said:

What is going on here?  I don't understand how this level of thread-necromancy has become so common.  Are people just doing Google searches now that the TV show is reaching more mainstream levels of consciousness and not realizing they're replying to threads that are half a decade or more (or much more) old?

 

I think that about sums it up. 

[Harldin]

On 7/9/2020 at 11:12 AM, Thrasymachus said:

What is going on here?  I don't understand how this level of thread-necromancy has become so common.  Are people just doing Google searches now that the TV show is reaching more mainstream levels of consciousness and not realizing they're replying to threads that are half a decade or more (or much more) old?

Yea i just Googled Demandred and the 3rd site is Dragonmount and provides a number of posts from 06-13 so people need to check dates first.

I’m quite sure there are plenty of people happy to discuss Demandred, but there is not much point replying to a 7yo post. 

[Thrasymachus]

I wonder how hard it would be to put a little pop-up when you click in the reply box, just on posts that are more than a couple of months old that says, "Yo, the last time somebody posted in this thread was X years ago, are you sure you wanna do this?"

[Sabio]

I don't see a problem, would it be better of people just kept starting new topics about mostly the same stuff?   

[Thrasymachus]

Honestly?  Yes.  Starting a new thread is preferable to replying to a thread where the last post was made a decade ago.  Or even just a year ago.  For one thing, the original participants are unlikely to see it or still participate.  So you're effectively talking to ghosts.  And if you do come across an ancient thread that sparks some idea or topic that you want to talk about, you'll be better off starting a new thread about it.