The Butchers Bill (Full Spoilers)

[fionwe1987]

Reading through that list of dead characters is quite shocking.  The only death's I actually recall in detail are the main ones (Egwene, Gawyn, Siuan, Bela, Birgitte).  Tbh, I don't even really remember Gareth's death.  I think it was just mentioned in passing.

 

I kind of get what team Jordan were going for with a few major characters and a lot of minor characters biting the bullet at the LB, but the deaths just seem to have got lost in the action.  If this was an attempt to show us the abruptness of death, and the fact that in a battle you can't stop and mourn, then fair enough.  My personal opinion is that it doesn't particularly work in this series.  The WoT is not a series about gritty realism, there isn't much death, and when it does happen its a big deal (e.g. Moiraine's "death" resonated througout the rest of the story until her return).  I think a lot of these characters, particularly Siuan and Gareth, deserved a bit more focus, and all of the main characters who died could have done with a bit of recognition from the remaining characters.

Siuan's death was particularly off-putting to me. I would have liked for her to have had a more heroic death, because that's what her character has always been set up to be. I'd have loved for her to have entered the burning tent, then allowed Min, Mat and Tuon to leave safely by engaging the Sharan channelers. More of a proper combat death than being hit by a fireball offscreen. 

[David Selig]

 IMO there should've been more of a reaction from the characters to many of the death. It was particularly strange with Elayne and her reactions - we got like 5 lines of her reactng to Siuan and Bryne's deaths, and weirdly she seemed more affected by the former, which doesn't make sense since Bryne was the closest thing to a father she had. Then we never got her reaction to Egwene and Gawyn's deaths. To top it off, in the epilogue she's pretty calm and doesn't even cry even though her brother, her Warder and closest friend, another really close friend (Egwene) and Bryne died and Aviendha was maimed, not to mention all the other people she knew who perished in the battles.

[Suttree]

 

 IMO there should've been more of a reaction from the characters to many of the death. It was particularly strange with Elayne and her reactions - we got like 5 lines of her reactng to Siuan and Bryne's deaths, and weirdly she seemed more affected by the former, which doesn't make sense since Bryne was the closest thing to a father she had. Then we never got her reaction to Egwene and Gawyn's deaths. To top it off, in the epilogue she's pretty calm and doesn't even cry even though her brother, her Warder and closest friend, another really close friend (Egwene) and Bryne died and Aviendha was maimed, not to mention all the other people she knew who perished in the battles.

To me that fits in with the pattern under Brandon of when a character starts talking we generally stop seeing their inner thoughts. It really takes away from the depth. We are often getting the bare skeleton of a story and it reads like a first draft.

 

Another example from AMoL is when Faile was moving the horn. Here we do have a ton of her POV but the odd thing is after apparently finding out her father was a DF(so she thought) we literally get one off handed, blase sentence stating the fact. No inner turmoil, no disbelief, no anguish around the topic. It's pretty bizarre.

[al'Lanis Morissette]

Yeah, they said at Merrilor 6 clan chief's were lost. 7 Including Rhuarc. 

 

That is one of the biggest problems with this list. 

 

So many characters died unnamed that we can't say if they are dead or not. 

 

For example, hundreds of Aes Sedai died. No doubt that includes many of the named characters we have seen in the previous books. However, since we don't get any names, we can't say which ones actually died and which survived. 

 

Same with the Black Ajah, there are heaps of named Black Ajah. There are a heap of dead Black Ajah. However, since they weren't named, again, we can't put them on the dead list. 

 

So this has bothered me for a while. What happened to Bael? In the previous books, it seemed like you couldn't have a scene with Rhuarc without Bael.

[Charred Knight]

Reading through that list of dead characters is quite shocking.  The only death's I actually recall in detail are the main ones (Egwene, Gawyn, Siuan, Bela, Birgitte).  Tbh, I don't even really remember Gareth's death.  I think it was just mentioned in passing.

 

I kind of get what team Jordan were going for with a few major characters and a lot of minor characters biting the bullet at the LB, but the deaths just seem to have got lost in the action.  If this was an attempt to show us the abruptness of death, and the fact that in a battle you can't stop and mourn, then fair enough.  My personal opinion is that it doesn't particularly work in this series.  The WoT is not a series about gritty realism, there isn't much death, and when it does happen its a big deal (e.g. Moiraine's "death" resonated througout the rest of the story until her return).  I think a lot of these characters, particularly Siuan and Gareth, deserved a bit more focus, and all of the main characters who died could have done with a bit of recognition from the remaining characters.

 

I have never been a fan of that type of thing either especially in a genre like fantasy.  If you have things like trollocs then trying to establish that "Death can happen to anyone at anytime" just seems like a waste.  I have been a huge fan of Gareth Bryne so reading "Oh and Gareth Bryne just ran into a bunch of trollocs and died" just makes you want to throw the book at a wall.  What was the point of Siuan and Gareth's death?  Just another "shocking twist"?  The Wheel of Time didnt need "shocking twist" so I dont see why the last book had to catch up with a whole bunch of them.

[spoke]

Sarene Nemdahl: Under Graendal's heavy Compulsion. Nynaeve may be able to heal it fully, however, she would most likely die or be a husk.

I wouldn't consider her out yet.  Graendal was basically captured with the gateway explosion, however she may be able to undo her own compulsion without it adversely affecting Sarene (by-the-way there was a viewing by Min about her having a temptuous love affair - presumably with her warder - which hasn't been mentioned yet).

[F Horn of Valere]

 

Reading through that list of dead characters is quite shocking.  The only death's I actually recall in detail are the main ones (Egwene, Gawyn, Siuan, Bela, Birgitte).  Tbh, I don't even really remember Gareth's death.  I think it was just mentioned in passing.

 

I kind of get what team Jordan were going for with a few major characters and a lot of minor characters biting the bullet at the LB, but the deaths just seem to have got lost in the action.  If this was an attempt to show us the abruptness of death, and the fact that in a battle you can't stop and mourn, then fair enough.  My personal opinion is that it doesn't particularly work in this series.  The WoT is not a series about gritty realism, there isn't much death, and when it does happen its a big deal (e.g. Moiraine's "death" resonated througout the rest of the story until her return).  I think a lot of these characters, particularly Siuan and Gareth, deserved a bit more focus, and all of the main characters who died could have done with a bit of recognition from the remaining characters.

 

I have never been a fan of that type of thing either especially in a genre like fantasy.  If you have things like trollocs then trying to establish that "Death can happen to anyone at anytime" just seems like a waste.  I have been a huge fan of Gareth Bryne so reading "Oh and Gareth Bryne just ran into a bunch of trollocs and died" just makes you want to throw the book at a wall.  What was the point of Siuan and Gareth's death?  Just another "shocking twist"?  The Wheel of Time didnt need "shocking twist" so I dont see why the last book had to catch up with a whole bunch of them.

 

Isn't that the point? War is full of pointless deaths, even if the war itself is just... it would be pretty lame and pathetic if every character with a great arc died heroically. 

 

Dark One: DEMANDRED, LET SIUAN AND GARETH DIE HEROICALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE COOL CHARACTERS.

Demandred: Of course, Great One. I will command a fist of trollocs to not fight  back if the warder ever makes a suicide charge, so that their great love story is deep and not meaningless.

[Tud]

Does anyone know what happened to Theodrin? She was with Androl's group throughout most of the battle, but then just stopped being mentioned. If she'd gotten killed, you'd think someone would have mentioned it. Especially since Andol et al didn't do any real fighting..They acted more like a black ops force stealing the discs, luring Misrhiale's group into the Ogier trap, etc. Dangerous, to be sure and vital, but no real combat.I got the impression that she survived, but I'm not sure why.

 

As for the "turned", I thought that when the Dark One was blocked off from the world, his ability to control these poor people would end. Either that or they could be stilled and then repaired. Wouldn't that serve to end the turning?

 

On the subject of the compelled, the fact that compelling ceases when the controlling channeler dies or is stilled (I think), gives them hope.

 

Finally, the scary thing is Moghidien being collared...Since she is the one who put Yulan under compulsion, the control still holds. Therefore, it shouldn't be hard for her to compel him to relaese her. Of course, once she's free there is a question of what next. With the bore being sealed, her connection to the Dark Lord is severed. What exactly is she going to do?

 

tud

[Byzantine279]

Does anyone know what happened to Theodrin? She was with Androl's group throughout most of the battle, but then just stopped being mentioned. If she'd gotten killed, you'd think someone would have mentioned it. Especially since Andol et al didn't do any real fighting..They acted more like a black ops force stealing the discs, luring Misrhiale's group into the Ogier trap, etc. Dangerous, to be sure and vital, but no real combat.I got the impression that she survived, but I'm not sure why.

 

As for the "turned", I thought that when the Dark One was blocked off from the world, his ability to control these poor people would end. Either that or they could be stilled and then repaired. Wouldn't that serve to end the turning?

 

On the subject of the compelled, the fact that compelling ceases when the controlling channeler dies or is stilled (I think), gives them hope.

 

Finally, the scary thing is Moghidien being collared...Since she is the one who put Yulan under compulsion, the control still holds. Therefore, it shouldn't be hard for her to compel him to relaese her. Of course, once she's free there is a question of what next. With the bore being sealed, her connection to the Dark Lord is severed. What exactly is she going to do?

 

tud

 

Perhaps she became too exhausted to keep channeling and backed out of the fight, or was injured and forced to leave.  Neither of those are likely to elicit a comment if it was clear she would be okay later.

 

They know that Yulan is under compulsion and he was arrested, Tud.  He won't be giving orders any time soon.  Presumably until they can fix it.

[Rhienne]

Isn't that the point? War is full of pointless deaths, even if the

war itself is just... it would be pretty lame and pathetic if every

character with a great arc died heroically. 

 

Dark One: DEMANDRED, LET SIUAN AND GARETH DIE HEROICALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE COOL CHARACTERS.

Demandred: Of course, Great One. I will command a fist of trollocs to

not fight  back if the warder ever makes a suicide charge, so that

their great love story is deep and not meaningless.

 

Yes, it is certainly more realistic that Siuan got hit by a fireball and Gareth was cut down by a trolloc.  But neither death even happened on screen.

 

And this is a fantasy genre.  I am certainly not reading this book to have a deeper understanding of the brutality of war.  I am reading it because I want to read an epic story with heroic happenings.  If the WoT was into realism, Egwene would have died from a snake bite in the Aiel Waste, Thom would have been killed by that Fade in Whitebridge, and Elayne and/or her babies would have fared significantly worse from having a blade stabbed into her abdomen.

[F Horn of Valere]

I just think having some important minor characters (or minor major characters?) die off unceremoniously does a prime job at enhancing the atmosphere portrayed in the last battle. I'm not arguing for it being realistic, but that their deaths are done in the only appropriate way to truly convey the atmosphere.

[Charred Knight]

I just think having some important minor characters (or minor major characters?) die off unceremoniously does a prime job at enhancing the atmosphere portrayed in the last battle. I'm not arguing for it being realistic, but that their deaths are done in the only appropriate way to truly convey the atmosphere.

Except instead of feeling "Oh crap this is it"  your feelings are just frustration at the author because another character you knew just died a stupid death. Rhuarc's death in particular was just embarassing.

[Rhienne]

 

 Except instead of feeling "Oh crap this is it"  your feelings are just

frustration at the author because another character you knew just died a

stupid death. Rhuarc's death in particular was just embarassing.

 

Yeah, I just felt let down that a character I really liked (Siuan) had a death scene which had zero emotional impact on me.  Her death hardly got a single thought from any of the other characters, and the battle moved on so quickly that she was pretty much forgotten immediately.  Yes, this is what happens in a real battle, but I didn't feel this kind of portrayal of death fit with the style that most of the WoT has been written in.  It just felt like ticking a box.

 

I didn't feel much about Rhuarc's death either.  To be fair, its a while since I'd done a re-read so because he hadn't come up too much in the last books he wasn't fresh in my mind.  A few scenes of him interacting with some of the other characters prior to his death would have given his death a bit more impact.

[F Horn of Valere]

I guess to each his own then... I felt like the whole point was there was just so much death in such a quick amount of time, and satisfying every developed character's death with a blaze of glory would water down all the other bajillion blazes of glory that would also have to be included as well. In the case of Gareth, it fit the series much better anyways... it would have been far more scream-worthy if he had not had a typical warder's death, and a ton of people would be slamming BS for changing the rules just for his character.

 

Besides, it would have also made it way out of character as well... whenever someone died, we saw it from someone else's POV, someone else who couldn't really care less because they are worried about their own hide or the bigger overall picture.

[Kil]

 

Sarene Nemdahl: Under Graendal's heavy Compulsion. Nynaeve may be able to heal it fully, however, she would most likely die or be a husk.

I wouldn't consider her out yet.  Graendal was basically captured with the gateway explosion, however she may be able to undo her own compulsion without it adversely affecting Sarene (by-the-way there was a viewing by Min about her having a temptuous love affair - presumably with her warder - which hasn't been mentioned yet).

 

I actually assume their love affair had already happened, off-page. It certainly won't happen in the future, since her warder Vitalien was killed. His name is missing from the OP's list, BTW.

[Charred Knight]

 

 

Reading through that list of dead characters is quite shocking.  The only death's I actually recall in detail are the main ones (Egwene, Gawyn, Siuan, Bela, Birgitte).  Tbh, I don't even really remember Gareth's death.  I think it was just mentioned in passing.

 

I kind of get what team Jordan were going for with a few major characters and a lot of minor characters biting the bullet at the LB, but the deaths just seem to have got lost in the action.  If this was an attempt to show us the abruptness of death, and the fact that in a battle you can't stop and mourn, then fair enough.  My personal opinion is that it doesn't particularly work in this series.  The WoT is not a series about gritty realism, there isn't much death, and when it does happen its a big deal (e.g. Moiraine's "death" resonated througout the rest of the story until her return).  I think a lot of these characters, particularly Siuan and Gareth, deserved a bit more focus, and all of the main characters who died could have done with a bit of recognition from the remaining characters.

 

I have never been a fan of that type of thing either especially in a genre like fantasy.  If you have things like trollocs then trying to establish that "Death can happen to anyone at anytime" just seems like a waste.  I have been a huge fan of Gareth Bryne so reading "Oh and Gareth Bryne just ran into a bunch of trollocs and died" just makes you want to throw the book at a wall.  What was the point of Siuan and Gareth's death?  Just another "shocking twist"?  The Wheel of Time didnt need "shocking twist" so I dont see why the last book had to catch up with a whole bunch of them.

 

Isn't that the point? War is full of pointless deaths, even if the war itself is just... it would be pretty lame and pathetic if every character with a great arc died heroically. 

 

Dark One: DEMANDRED, LET SIUAN AND GARETH DIE HEROICALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE COOL CHARACTERS.

Demandred: Of course, Great One. I will command a fist of trollocs to not fight  back if the warder ever makes a suicide charge, so that their great love story is deep and not meaningless.

Is that anymore ridiculous then Aviendha accidentally killing Rhuarc because he had become a slave to Graendal?

[fuzz1717]

 

 

 

Reading through that list of dead characters is quite shocking.  The only death's I actually recall in detail are the main ones (Egwene, Gawyn, Siuan, Bela, Birgitte).  Tbh, I don't even really remember Gareth's death.  I think it was just mentioned in passing.

 

I kind of get what team Jordan were going for with a few major characters and a lot of minor characters biting the bullet at the LB, but the deaths just seem to have got lost in the action.  If this was an attempt to show us the abruptness of death, and the fact that in a battle you can't stop and mourn, then fair enough.  My personal opinion is that it doesn't particularly work in this series.  The WoT is not a series about gritty realism, there isn't much death, and when it does happen its a big deal (e.g. Moiraine's "death" resonated througout the rest of the story until her return).  I think a lot of these characters, particularly Siuan and Gareth, deserved a bit more focus, and all of the main characters who died could have done with a bit of recognition from the remaining characters.

 

I have never been a fan of that type of thing either especially in a genre like fantasy.  If you have things like trollocs then trying to establish that "Death can happen to anyone at anytime" just seems like a waste.  I have been a huge fan of Gareth Bryne so reading "Oh and Gareth Bryne just ran into a bunch of trollocs and died" just makes you want to throw the book at a wall.  What was the point of Siuan and Gareth's death?  Just another "shocking twist"?  The Wheel of Time didnt need "shocking twist" so I dont see why the last book had to catch up with a whole bunch of them.

 

Isn't that the point? War is full of pointless deaths, even if the war itself is just... it would be pretty lame and pathetic if every character with a great arc died heroically. 

 

Dark One: DEMANDRED, LET SIUAN AND GARETH DIE HEROICALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE COOL CHARACTERS.

Demandred: Of course, Great One. I will command a fist of trollocs to not fight  back if the warder ever makes a suicide charge, so that their great love story is deep and not meaningless.

Is that anymore ridiculous then Aviendha accidentally killing Rhuarc because he had become a slave to Graendal?

That was supposed to be a huge shock to Aviendha (and the reader), as Aviendha had always thought of Rhuarc as a father. Perhaps it was reflecting on some (American) Civil War-esque themes such as having to fight your brothers or your father. Aviendha mourns Rhuarc's death to some extent and feels the shock of it, but we don't really get too many POVs from her after the fact that aren't her and Hesallam fighting.

[driedraspberry]

 

 

Isn't that the point? War is full of pointless deaths, even if the

war itself is just... it would be pretty lame and pathetic if every

character with a great arc died heroically.

 

 

 

Dark One: DEMANDRED, LET SIUAN AND GARETH DIE HEROICALLY BECAUSE THEY ARE COOL CHARACTERS.

 

Demandred: Of course, Great One. I will command a fist of trollocs to

not fight back if the warder ever makes a suicide charge, so that

their great love story is deep and not meaningless.

Yes, it is certainly more realistic that Siuan got hit by a fireball and Gareth was cut down by a trolloc. But neither death even happened on screen.

 

And this is a fantasy genre. I am certainly not reading this book to have a deeper understanding of the brutality of war. I am reading it because I want to read an epic story with heroic happenings. If the WoT was into realism, Egwene would have died from a snake bite in the Aiel Waste, Thom would have been killed by that Fade in Whitebridge, and Elayne and/or her babies would have fared significantly worse from having a blade stabbed into her abdomen.

In fiction emotional impact is key. I thought Siuan's death was perfect. The shock of finding her body and Min's grief was absolutely painful to read. If we had seen her die I don't think it would've been as powerful. I thought the moment she made the choice to stay and die was epic in it's own way.

 

My only complaint with Gareth's death was the way it was written when Elayne found his corpse. I don't think it was necessarily to have him die onscreen since Warder death-rage is predestined and lacks the usual tension as we know death is absolutely unavoidable. But the aftermath could've packed more punch.

 

Now the Basheres' deaths was lame. Can't be onscreen, fine. But there was absolutely nothing there for emotional impact. And considering the huge role Dev's played since forever it was a big let down.

[John E. Kelley]

Why is it that as soon as BS took over, Sulin disappeared? Whatever happened to her? She was a fairly important secondary character for six or seven books, then never mentioned again. What gives? Did she get killed off and I just missed it?

[Entreri]

A good butcher's bill. Reminds me of the show Spartacus on Starz (truly epic show btw). 

 

Overall Light forces death toll, approx 75% all their forces are dead.

 

Dark Side at approx 95%, given some Sharans escaped. 

 

Sharans dead toll, probably around 70% or so, almost none of their channelers escaped alive. Trollocs and Myddraal should all be dead...although it may be possible that a handful of Fades escaped, given their abilities.  Dark side channelers? 100% death toll beside the Sharans. Darkfriends? Should be easily 99+%, given it is the LB and Shai'tan would want all of them in the fight.

 

Light Side:

 

I estimate around 95% dead at SG, up to 70% in Merrilor. Least % of casulaties, Seanchan 50-60%.   

 

Channeler dead: 

 

Aes Sedai: 60-70%, Sharan initial assualt killed a lot of AS

 

Asha'man: Probably around 50-60%, Taim turning, conflict before the real war...

 

Damane: Probably 50%, the were going all out with the Sharans, but they had a reprieve before rejoining the combat, otherwise greater %

 

Wise Ones? Who knows, since they were hardly mentioned even though there should have been around 2000.  Although one would assume at least 50% died.

 

Windfinders??? Same as the Wise Ones.

 

Sharans: 99%, only a handful left, whom Moghdiein tried to recruit before being captured by the Seanchan as a damane. 

 

The other Dark Siders: 99.9% (Grandael and Moghdien escaped death...Grandael will be killed by the Aiel, in the end the Spider survives). 

[flinn]

Does anyone know what happened to Theodrin? She was with Androl's group throughout most of the battle, but then just stopped being mentioned. If she'd gotten killed, you'd think someone would have mentioned it. Especially since Andol et al didn't do any real fighting..They acted more like a black ops force stealing the discs, luring Misrhiale's group into the Ogier trap, etc. Dangerous, to be sure and vital, but no real combat.I got the impression that she survived, but I'm not sure why.

 

As for the "turned", I thought that when the Dark One was blocked off from the world, his ability to control these poor people would end. Either that or they could be stilled and then repaired. Wouldn't that serve to end the turning?

 

On the subject of the compelled, the fact that compelling ceases when the controlling channeler dies or is stilled (I think), gives them hope.

 

Finally, the scary thing is Moghidien being collared...Since she is the one who put Yulan under compulsion, the control still holds. Therefore, it shouldn't be hard for her to compel him to relaese her. Of course, once she's free there is a question of what next. With the bore being sealed, her connection to the Dark Lord is severed. What exactly is she going to do?

 

tud

 What do you mean "the fact that compelling ceases when the controlling channeler dies or is stilled?"

 

 That is the first time I have heard that and I did not think that was the case.

[Mrs. Cindy Gill]

Why is it that as soon as BS took over, Sulin disappeared? Whatever happened to her? She was a fairly important secondary character for six or seven books, then never mentioned again. What gives? Did she get killed off and I just missed it?

I think he was embarrassed after the nandera mistake and didn't deal with her again because of it.

[Suttree]

@Flinn

 

There is no evidence of that being the case.

[Tud]

Regarding the issue of death ending compulsion, go back to GS and Rand's assault on Natrim's Barrow. He used that traitorous Lord as both bait and a test to see if Graendal was present. The guy came back under compulsion which Rand took as proof of her presence and when the compulsion disappeared, he took that as proof that she was dead. The plan was sound except for the unsuspected presence of Halima. Therefore, it seems that RJ/BS were saying that compulsion ends upon the death of the Compellor.

 

On the issue of stilling, it is less clear, but I think a good argument can be made that since compulsion ends upon the death of the Compellor, the same can be said to happen when that same person is stilled. After all, what is the one thing that death and stilling have in common? The end of a person's ability to channel. Since compulsion ceases upon the death of the compellor, it seems likely that it would also cease upon to end upon the death of the compellor's ability to channel.

 

As for Yulan being used by Moghidien to escape, I don't believe that he was arrested, just removed from command. Even if he was arrested, it wouldn't be reasonable that it would be permanent. With the defeat of the Shadow, it seems likely that everyone would assume that he's safe to be freed (After all, he is one of the Seanchen's greatest commander and a valuable asset, so why waste him?). That would make him the perfect tool to be used to effectuate Moghidien's escape.

 

tud

[hime]

Actually the whole Natrim's Barrow thing was based on using balefire which will undo anything a person has done including compulsion, it is not the same as normal death.