Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[dreadlord]

On the balance thing...no, I don't buy it either. Egwene is not the Dragon's equal. Her actions did not bring "balance" to the world. All she did was provide a temporary bandaid over the damage caused by the balefire. There's no way in hell she's as important, or as connected to the land, as Rand. In fact, I don't see her as being any more connected to the land than any other channeler. She just happened to be in the right place at the right time because she was too egocentric to let someone else take the sa'angreal and face Taim. In the end, her "I have to do it all because no one is as awesome as me!" attitude led her to her death, one which she embraced fully once she realized she had burned herself out from channeling too much (something that should've been obvious to everyone around her given how she was constantly channeling and doing it all herself).

 

 

My biggest issue with the idea of Egwene being the balancer of Rand, is that I've envisioned the 'balance' in the series as being more a see saw, with the forces of the Shadow on one side, the forces of the Light on the other, and the Dragon acting as the fulcrum in the middle.  It is after all his choice to agree or disagree with the Dark One that is the real heart of the Last Battle.   The shadow's force could defeat the Light armies everywhere and he could still decide to keep fighting.  The light's force could defeat the Shadow's armies everywhere and he could still decide to accept oblivion. 

 

Even though, I'm not generally a fan of Egwene's character, I was still hoping to see her and Rand's relationship resolve in some meaningful way.  The lack of that resolution does bother me a little bit.   But, at the same time, the lack of resolution is consistent with her general character throughout the series.   She is consistent and with RJ's original concept of inverting the 'battle of the sexes' and I wonder if her death in the Last Battle is part of that original concept.  An example, of what I mean by this, is before the meeting in the tent at Merrilor, while Rand is walking across the field with the grass greening up around him, she wonders how he does it, but doesn't think to ask him.  Instead, she sends Gawyn to ask the Ashaman how he does it. 

[papertiger]

Yeah, I think Gawyn knew exactly how pointless talking to Egwene would be. Just act instead and see if you get away with it. But Gawyn wasn't Mat, so he got caught.

 

Also, is anyone else frustrated that Siuan didn't know her Warder was being Compelled?

[mbuehner]

 

 

I agree, Gawyn knew he was dead the moment he put the ring on his finger. 

 

True, but he also knew he had days and probably weeks given how long the blood knives stalked the WT. If he dies after the LB, thats fine. If he dies at a critical moment during the LB, not so fine.

Well, then why didnt he  say something to Egwen. He was her warden,husban and as somebody say soulmate ?? Because I have feeling he used rings before. And when he went after Demandred that was second time  ??

See above in thread- RE: Gawyn is was a moron.

[Byzantine279]

Gawyn was already dying, even before he put the rings on to stop Demandred.  I do think he should have warned Egwene beforehand, though.  (from what i understand taking the ring off won't save your life, just allows you to last longer.  it was why he had looked sunken since the book began).  It really is sad that Egwene waited so long to go completely overboard since she could have saved thousands of lives if she had taken out Taim and the other shadow channelers along with herself sooner.

[papertiger]

I still think inverted balefire--discovered by Egwene--should have been communicated to Nynaeve or Moiraine, just so they could help find a way to seal the Bore while Rand held off the DO

[dreadlord]

I don't think that Gawyn is an utter idiot.  I think that there were some issues with how he was written and inserted into the story  and much of that results from there being little time to flesh him out.

 

Throughout the books, he's always suffered from a lack of information whether it be about the location of his sister and her friends, the Tower revolt, the reported death of his mother, etc.  He doesn't have the benefit of all the information that we as readers have.

 

There is a logic to him going after Demmy during the last battle.  He thought that he had the advantage because of the rings.  It turned out that he really didn't.

 

I can kind of see his internal logic in not telling Egwene about the rings once he decided to use them.  I doubt that she would have told him much about what her overall plans were as a result of her being the uber-Aes Sedai and he being just a warder.  Nor, I suspect would she have listened overly much to whatever he thought about her plans.  When they had a similar disagreement during the period after the reunification of the tower when he saved her life, he actually turned out to be correct.    His actions tend during the last battle tend to build on that.   If he had managed to take Demmy out at that point it could have turned the battle early.   I find it hard to fault him on that.

[papertiger]

I also think it's funny that Egwene bonded Leilwin for all of 2 hours after losing Gawyn.

 

Talk about a rebound!

[deepak_dragonreborn]

I also think it's funny that Egwene bonded Leilwin for all of 2 hours after losing Gawyn. Talk about a rebound!

 

Yeah Leilwin must have gone on a warder rage right?? So she should be dead too! We dont really find out what happens to her though... Egwenes death was like Lews Therin's death in a much smaller scale actually..

[Suttree]

Egwenes death was like Lews Therin's death in a much smaller scale actually..

Adctually it mirrored Eldrene's death much more closely.

[driedraspberry]

 

 

The one bit of Egwene's arc which I really liked was her little conversation with Rand just after she'd died. It somehow seemed like the old Egwene, rather than the ice-cold, inhuman Amyrlin. I was really glad to see this.

Egwene isn't cold at all, she's just strong. I could see plenty of reasons to dislike her character, but I can't imagine how you could call her cold.

Egwene is most certainly cold, just look at her treatment of Nynaeve. Ice cold. Now there is nothing wrong with that inherently, and her position requires it of her, but there is no point denying it.

[papertiger]

Egwene could have used a little bit of help from Sorilea and Cadsuane in the "I have to be so TOUGH for people to respect me!" department. You would have thought her training with the Wise Ones would have kept her from being an Aes Sedai Ice Queen, but apparently she just ditched that perspective because it didn't suit her.

 

She's like 3 books behind Rand in terms of character development. I'd thought she had made such progress in The Gathering Storm...then Rand shows up and she antagonizes him for no good reason. Ah, vintage Jordan!

[TNine]

Egwene could have used a little bit of help from Sorilea and Cadsuane in the "I have to be so TOUGH for people to respect me!" department. You would have thought her training with the Wise Ones would have kept her from being an Aes Sedai Ice Queen, but apparently she just ditched that perspective because it didn't suit her.

???

 

The Wise Ones act almost exactly the same as the Aes Sedai, in this regard (as in most). It's lampshaded pretty often (every time the Wise Ones give advice to Rand on dealing with Aes Sedai). Beyond that, it's pretty clear that Egwene's given herself to the Amyrlin Seat and Tar Valon far more than to the Wise Ones.

 

And if you want people to respect you as a leader, you need to be tough...it can be done with less power and more finesse, but it's not wrong to try to be tough to get respect.

[Morsker]

Egwene could have used a little bit of help from Sorilea and Cadsuane in the "I have to be so TOUGH for people to respect me!" department. You would have thought her training with the Wise Ones would have kept her from being an Aes Sedai Ice Queen, but apparently she just ditched that perspective because it didn't suit her.

 

She's like 3 books behind Rand in terms of character development. I'd thought she had made such progress in The Gathering Storm...then Rand shows up and she antagonizes him for no good reason. Ah, vintage Jordan!

 

I share the disappointment that Egwene is just innately a perfect leader, while Rand is a disaster and needs to learn so much before he can do it right. But Egwene did have much better teachers than Rand, and a powerful example of what not to be, in Elaida. I don't think she was 3 months behind Rand. She had more to learn surely, in being nicer to her friends. But she just doesn't have the same issues with leadership that Rand did; it's different for her.

[papertiger]

You make a good point; Rand always had the Prophetic Chosen One ta'veren thing on his side, and was going mad at the same time. Egwene had to patch together a cabinet then operate on the sly until she could make her move...and that was just to become an effectve rebel Amyrlin! She had to earn her stripes to gain power.

 

That being said, it's the end of the world and one of the main themes of the series was that being strong and being hard weren't the same thing. You have to have heart and trust in order to pull through against the forces of darkness.

 

I thought Egwene would have shown more heart and trust but as soon as Rand shows up at the WT, it turns into another Jordan gender showdown.

 

Then she doesn't trust Mat or anyone else while forgetting to ward against Dreams, almost sabotaging a necessary alliance with a sermon on slavery. 

 

Then turns into a pure rage monster who burns herself up while discovering the greatest weave ever.

 

No heart; only grief, which is why it so sad to hear Egwene's voice in Rand's head. She just couldn't achieve that over the course of her life. No veins of gold, and Gawyn didn't even trust talking with her. 

[MasterAblar]

 

 

I also think it's funny that Egwene bonded Leilwin for all of 2 hours after losing Gawyn. Talk about a rebound!

 

Yeah Leilwin must have gone on a warder rage right?? So she should be dead too! We dont really find out what happens to her though... Egwenes death was like Lews Therin's death in a much smaller scale actually..

Egwene ends the bond before killing herself.

[papertiger]

Really? That went right past me when I read it. Good to know she didn't sell Leilwin out, but it still kind of cheapened her vision of a Seanchan saving her.

[Kudlak]

Ok Iam back :-D 

Does anyone think there is a chance Egwene doesn't stay dead? The FOTV is the counter-balance to Balefire. When someone is balefired their soul/thread is burned away from the pattern and there is a time-reversal effect.  We don't really know the extent to how much FOTV mirrors balefire, but maybe it burns a good person's soul/thread into the pattern (in reference to her cheesy thought of it affecting a DF differently) and would put her soul/body back into the pattern in the future.  I know the idea isn't thought out perfectly, but why is she able to talk to Rand and why does it reference her soul leaving her body?  If Rand's soul can find a new home, why not Egwene's?

Also, if she does stay dead, I FEEL SO BAD FOR SIUANE.  I forget if she was talking to herself, Gareth, or Egwene, but there was a passage in the book on Siuane's thoughts on no longer being Amyrlin.  She said although she was slightly upset about no longer being Amyrlin she was thrilled that her legacy lived on through Egwene.  She may not have been entirely responsible for the woman that she became, but Siuane saw herself in Egwene and was proud she played a role in shaping what she thought would be the world's greatest Amyrlin to come.  Then not too much later on Siuane dies off-screen, followed by Egwene....  =*(****

Ofc she doesnt stay after death , after all  this is Wheel.  It is turning  + Rand say something about people to be rebirth to have chance to do better next time (Egwen think something like that ...)

 

 

 

 

I agree, Gawyn knew he was dead the moment he put the ring on his finger. 

 

True, but he also knew he had days and probably weeks given how long the blood knives stalked the WT. If he dies after the LB, thats fine. If he dies at a critical moment during the LB, not so fine.

Well, then why didnt he  say something to Egwen. He was her warden,husban and as somebody say soulmate ?? Because I have feeling he used rings before. And when he went after Demandred that was second time  ??

 

She'd never have let him, and it would have caused her more distress to know that he had, distracting her, and causing conflict between them when there was no time.

 

I'm not saying he was right, but he had reasons.

 

 

Yeah, I think Gawyn knew exactly how pointless talking to Egwene would be. Just act instead and see if you get away with it. But Gawyn wasn't Mat, so he got caught.

Also, is anyone else frustrated that Siuan didn't know her Warder was being Compelled?

 

 

Gawyn was already dying, even before he put the rings on to stop Demandred.  I do think he should have warned Egwene beforehand, though.  (from what i understand taking the ring off won't save your life, just allows you to last longer.  it was why he had looked sunken since the book began).  It really is sad that Egwene waited so long to go completely overboard since she could have saved thousands of lives if she had taken out Taim and the other shadow channelers along with herself sooner.

 

 

I don't think that Gawyn is an utter idiot.  I think that there were some issues with how he was written and inserted into the story  and much of that results from there being little time to flesh him out.

 

Throughout the books, he's always suffered from a lack of information whether it be about the location of his sister and her friends, the Tower revolt, the reported death of his mother, etc.  He doesn't have the benefit of all the information that we as readers have.

 

There is a logic to him going after Demmy during the last battle.  He thought that he had the advantage because of the rings.  It turned out that he really didn't.

 

I can kind of see his internal logic in not telling Egwene about the rings once he decided to use them.  I doubt that she would have told him much about what her overall plans were as a result of her being the uber-Aes Sedai and he being just a warder.  Nor, I suspect would she have listened overly much to whatever he thought about her plans.  When they had a similar disagreement during the period after the reunification of the tower when he saved her life, he actually turned out to be correct.    His actions tend during the last battle tend to build on that.   If he had managed to take Demmy out at that point it could have turned the battle early.   I find it hard to fault him on that.

 

 

Ok these all post are nearly same and I think you all have true that he was dying and I was wrong sorry people  :-) 

 But didnt Egwen feel something from warden bond ??

 That is another problem I have with this .

 When Gawyn went after Demandred how she didnt know where is he ?? WTF I am sure that only Aes Sedai are able to block warden bond no Wardens ??? Or I am wrong again ??

And about say or not. I think say it. After all, he know, he is dying and he is walking around like nothing didnt happend+ There was little time after they run away before Demandred ?? .  Maybe Aes Sedai were  able to help him - Eleyne ??  

 

Your opinions ?? 

 

I also think it's funny that Egwene bonded Leilwin for all of 2 hours after losing Gawyn. Talk about a rebound!

 

Yeah Leilwin must have gone on a warder rage right?? So she should be dead too! We dont really find out what happens to her though... Egwenes death was like Lews Therin's death in a much smaller scale actually..

Well BS was trying to fulfill Egwen dream about helping seanchan women  ...

[papertiger]

I think the best way to fulfill the dream about Leilwin was to include her with Gawyn and Galad in an all-out shadow attack on Demandred. 3 rings, 3 players. Gawyn dies, Galad is maimed, and Leilwhin drags him out and becomes Egwene's new Warder for an hour or so.

 

It also would have made Lan's one-on-one battle with Demandred at the end even MORE epic. Lan and the medallion vs. Demandred. No retread with Galad getting the medallion first. 

[Kudlak]

I think the best way to fulfill the dream about Leilwin was to include her with Gawyn and Galad in an all-out shadow attack on Demandred. 3 rings, 3 players. Gawyn dies, Galad is maimed, and Leilwhin drags him out and becomes Egwene's new Warder for an hour or so.

 

It also would have made Lan's one-on-one battle with Demandred at the end even MORE epic. Lan and the medallion vs. Demandred. No retread with Galad getting the medallion first. 

 

 

Still problem with dying wardens ?? But better than in book. What I miss in book from Gawyn is any heroic moment. In book it looks like : Gawyn used ring(s) and  is dying. He looks like he dont care at all. Why to say this importan information to my wife, why bother (WTF)? 

Ok Demandred is here and he is killing everbody. What Gawyn do ?? Hey wait I got these rings, with them I am superman , who cares that these rings will kill me or maybe Demander. I  do not care. Really ??  Oh wait, what about my wife ?? With her, I have this weird bond. Wait didnt I hear something about this bond ? Oh yeah,if I die my wife is going crazy or she can die with me, well, I do not care about it ....  

 

[clu7ch]

 

Egwenes death was like Lews Therin's death in a much smaller scale actually..

Adctually it mirrored Eldrene's death much more closely.

 

I myself thought and worded that - the defending the honor of a love now lost, blind rage killing the crap outta things that Eldrene did - but that is absolutely not the case with Eggy. She didn't create this new weave and use herself up in vengeance, rather to restore, repair, and ultimately save the world enough that Rand could finish the job. The pillar of light reference in my opinion could have been seen as a reference to LTT's creating dragonmount, and committing oneself to the pattern

[Suttree]

Some good points there clu7ch although I still like the Eldrene connection.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Suttree

[Kudlak]

Some good points there clu7ch although I still like the Eldrene connection.

agree with you. After all, why mentioned this in books at all, if there isn't any connection ?,:-)

[clu7ch]

(: I absolutely loved the idea of the Eldrene thing, loved the nod to it, and I really enjoyed how she turned it selfless. 

[Sabio]

I still don't fully understand Egwene's last fight, I mean Taim had one of the most powerful things every built yet Egwene overpowered him.  With that mace he sohuld of been able to fry her to a pile of cinders.  Even with her drawing too much, we saw how powerful Demandred was with that mace.  That fight and her taking out all the remaining channlers at her death just seemed too cheesy for me.

[clu7ch]

Dem was also in a circle of 72. Taim wasn't.