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Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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Suttree-  Interesting indeed. There is more in Chapter 13: What Must Be Done. 

 

A hint at these things, and some well written foreshadowing for her death to come. 

 

 

 

Then Egwene returned to rupturing the earth. There was something energising about using raw power, sending weaves in their most basic forms. In that moment - maiming and destroying, bringing death upon the enemy - it felt as if she were one with the land itself. That she was doing the work it had longed for someone to do for so long. The Blight and the Shadowspawn it grew were a disease. An infection, Egwene - afire with the One Power, a blazing beacon of death and judgement - was the cauterizing flame that would bring healing to the land. 

 

As I look closer on my re-read, I see many small things that make it a huge improvement on ToM, and even tGS. For all his weakness still remains, Brandon did a lot of improvement in some ways. Unfortunately it isn't consistent as I would like, but it adds to the story. 

 

 

Also found another interesting piece about Perrin and his killing of Lanfear. It could obviously be a coincidence, but it would make a nice little bit of Foreshadowing. 

 

From the same chapter, Perrin's PoV talking about him entering TAR in the flesh: 

 

 

 

Women were alwaying trying to keep a man from doing what he must, as if worried he'd break his neck. 

 

First that Lanfear tried to make him kill Moiraine and Nynaeve - funnily enough, the two women he is thinking about - via Compulsion, but he worked through it "doing what he must", second obviously the reference of breaking her neck. 

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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Egwene acted like an idiot with Rand and Tuon. Also, no reunion with her and her family? I would have loved to see that. There were hardly words between her and anyone.

 

How did Egwene know to watch for the light? That bugged me.

 

I didn't like the crystals and cracks at all. It doesn't seem intuitive that the blackness beyond the pattern would actually show as the pattern unravelled. Also, why was there so much blackness in the ground as compared to the air*? A few tendrils of blackness moved out of the cracks in the ground, but why did they need to originate there? There's nothing special about the ground.

The anti-balefire weave (and Egwene coming up with it) seems plausible to me, for many of the reasons already mentioned, but why couldn't the cracks just close? Is it because the opposite of burning something is freezing that something**, thus the ice-like crystals? She did call it the flame of Tar Valon, though. If a thread is balefired, I'd think anti-balefire would gather up all the little particles of the burned thread (the motes) and place them back together, despite the fact that it's pretty much impossible to do this in the real world when something burns. Since burning is generally regarded as irreversible, though, I can live with anti-balefire putting something else in a thread's place with the same shape, but I still don't see why it'd have to show physically, and as a crystal specifically. It could just be realized as the blackness leaving the cracks and the Sharans dropping dead.

Also, her weave having a greater effect on people who had turned to the shadow is ridiculous; a weave like that shouldn't be so unbalanced.

 

 

 

 

 

* I know a crack in the air doesn't seem to make sense (what would it look like from the side?), but that's because we're used to cracks in surfaces, which are 2D. The cracks in the air would have to be 3D, which is impossible to visualize. As a matter of fact, the ground cracks, and all other cracks in the pattern itself, would have to be 3D as well, since the pattern is 3-dimensional.

** I know that combustion involves the oxidization of a fuel along with the expulsion of energy, so its true opposite isn't very clear; let's not get too scientific about it. Burning something makes it hot, freezing something makes it cold, so that's that. They're opposites.

 

I definitely feel Egwene came off as somewhat petty with Rand, but I actually feel she got the better of Tuon by a wide margin.  I've even seen some say that Tuon was shortchanged a bit.  I dislike Tuon, so I'm not the best judge on that. 

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I also think a lot of people, male readers in particular short change Egwene in the early books by saying how annoying she is.

When I read it as a young teenager (I think I was 13 or 14 when I read the first 4 books) I thought she was annoying and uptight, always scolding the boys etc. I think she rarely got her own PoV narratives early on, they were mainly Rand and the boys POV's. But reading it now as an adult I totally see it from her side. They're running away from shadow sporn trying to assassinate them and those idiot boys, Matt in particular, never do what they're told. They just do whatever they want with no concern for her or their own safety.

Seriously, Matt in Shadar Logoth behaves ridiculously selfishly and the result is Egwene getting lost alone in the woods chased by trollocs. Count the number of times she gets screwed over by their immaturity or just plain not following Moiraine's instructions...

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She should have gotten her own funeral, maybe even alongside Rand (I understand she didnt really have a physical body anymore, but at the very least, a mention.) Rands death seemed to have completely glossed over hers.

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Egwene acted like an idiot with Rand and Tuon. Also, no reunion with her and her family? I would have loved to see that. There were hardly words between her and anyone.

 

How did Egwene know to watch for the light? That bugged me.

 

I didn't like the crystals and cracks at all. It doesn't seem intuitive that the blackness beyond the pattern would actually show as the pattern unravelled. Also, why was there so much blackness in the ground as compared to the air*? A few tendrils of blackness moved out of the cracks in the ground, but why did they need to originate there? There's nothing special about the ground.

The anti-balefire weave (and Egwene coming up with it) seems plausible to me, for many of the reasons already mentioned, but why couldn't the cracks just close? Is it because the opposite of burning something is freezing that something**, thus the ice-like crystals? She did call it the flame of Tar Valon, though. If a thread is balefired, I'd think anti-balefire would gather up all the little particles of the burned thread (the motes) and place them back together, despite the fact that it's pretty much impossible to do this in the real world when something burns. Since burning is generally regarded as irreversible, though, I can live with anti-balefire putting something else in a thread's place with the same shape, but I still don't see why it'd have to show physically, and as a crystal specifically. It could just be realized as the blackness leaving the cracks and the Sharans dropping dead.

Also, her weave having a greater effect on people who had turned to the shadow is ridiculous; a weave like that shouldn't be so unbalanced.

 

 

 

 

 

* I know a crack in the air doesn't seem to make sense (what would it look like from the side?), but that's because we're used to cracks in surfaces, which are 2D. The cracks in the air would have to be 3D, which is impossible to visualize. As a matter of fact, the ground cracks, and all other cracks in the pattern itself, would have to be 3D as well, since the pattern is 3-dimensional.

** I know that combustion involves the oxidization of a fuel along with the expulsion of energy, so its true opposite isn't very clear; let's not get too scientific about it. Burning something makes it hot, freezing something makes it cold, so that's that. They're opposites.

In the notes of a former Amyrlin that was also a dreamer. Think it was in the chapter she travelled to Elayne's camp. The deceased Dreamer Amyrlin  wrote a note that said something to the effect of "watch for the light" (without me actually checking the actual quote)

 

*edit got the quote:

Elayne shuffled through the sheets of paper, then stopped on one of them. ";His blood shall give us the Light...'" She rubbed the page with her thumb, as if lost in thought. "'Wait upon the Light.' Who added this note?"

 

"That is Doniella Alievin's copy of the Termendal translation of The Karaethon Cycle," Egwene said.

Edited by James Tham
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Just thought... anyone think it might be possible for Egwene to manifest herself in Tel'aran'rhiod, similar to Birgritte and other Heroes of the Horn?  I think it would fit well with her Dreamer status, and it might be fitting for future Amyrlin's to be able to communicate with her for advice. 

 
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duskfire,

 

would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim?

 

we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all.

 

Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

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Realistically, was Egwene ever going to survive the Last Battle? Ever since the "Egwene is made of awesome" scene in ToM, she's just been too powerful to survive. She also never managed to get over her hatred for Seanchan; the closest she came was a vague respect for Egeanin at the end. Cadsuane at least stands a chance of not sparking a war with the Seanchan.

 

I notice people saying that Egwene is a selfless character. I disagree. To be clear, I have a total soft spot for her, but I think she's about as selfless as Elayne. Which is to say, not at all.

 

She tried, God help her, but what I got from her final scenes was that she could no longer maintain the appearance if being an über-serene, objective Aes Sedai anymore. Her death broke at least two of the unofficial AS tenets. First, she let herself be ruled by emotion, and second she acted like a man. Charging off into battle with the intent on dying? If Rand tried it he'd be a wool-headed lummox.

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duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

 

That's not possible, since the entire epilogue was written by Robert Jordan, and Egwene's death is clearly mentioned in that.

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duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

 

I did point out that I wasnt neccessarily saying that those viewings were tied to that specific death, but rather to argue that there was foreshadowing for her death. You claimed there wasn't any at all, when there clearly is. Not to mention, Gawyns death clearly led to hers. After that, she was completely and utterly reckless, when if her husband and warder had still been alive, I doubt she would have been nearly as much.

 

Besides, I am not sure why its such a bad thing to have a surprise death. Happens all the time in other fantasy series. Not everything needs to be neat. Not everything needs to fit. Someone in theory had to die, and we knew Elayne and Mat were most likely safe. Perrin would have been too important after TG to kill off. Therefore, that left Egwene.

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duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

 

That's not possible, since the entire epilogue was written by Robert Jordan, and Egwene's death is clearly mentioned in that.

RJ also tried to downplay callandors important defect by claiming it was a manufacturing flaw.

 

authors tell fibs. RJ may have wrote the epilogue but insertions and additions can be done

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duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

 

That's not possible, since the entire epilogue was written by Robert Jordan, and Egwene's death is clearly mentioned in that.

RJ also tried to downplay callandors important defect by claiming it was a manufacturing flaw.

 

authors tell fibs. RJ may have wrote the epilogue but insertions and additions can be done

 

Well, I would say Callandor being able to channel the TP is a pretty massive flaw. Jordan never lied, he just held back the truth. Which is sort of his job. If he had said, "Oh yeah, Callandor has this massive flaw where you can channel the TP through it and whatnot," he would have been given away a massively important detail of the last book. Omitting is not lying.

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duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

 

That's not possible, since the entire epilogue was written by Robert Jordan, and Egwene's death is clearly mentioned in that.

RJ also tried to downplay callandors important defect by claiming it was a manufacturing flaw.

 

authors tell fibs. RJ may have wrote the epilogue but insertions and additions can be done

 

Assuming this is reliable, all of the epilogue was written by Jordan.  It either is, or they flat out lied.  Personally, I think the accusation reaks of conspiracy theory.  If Egwene survived to the end, I'm sure Jordan would have written a final scene for her, like he did for all of the other main characters.  There's no way they would have chosen to throw it out just so they could kill a main character.

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It makes sense given that Jordan obviously likes Cadsuane; I'm not convinced Brandon would have chosen to make Cadsuane Amyrlin if it was up to him.  Besides, something about that Cadsuane POV just made it obvious that Jordan wrote it.  I'll admit it left a bad taste on my mouth at first, since it felt like the purpose was to sweep Egwene aside so the bestest Aes Sedai evar could take over, though I think it's meant to be seen more as a punishment for Cadsuane.  One fairly subtle thing I liked was that, for the first time, Cadsuane cursed upon hearing the suggestion. 

 

In universe, I have to wonder a bit at the decision to make Cadsuane Amyrlin, since she shouldn't live very much longer... I suppose she could force most of the Aes Sedai to cooperate in her time, though.  I imagine she'll mostly stick with Egwene's changes, and her role in history will be that of a transistory leader, one that keeps them afloat and enforces new policies.  I don't know how diplomatic relations between her and Logain will go though.  Didn't she have a hand in capturing him?  That's not going to be pretty.

Edited by instantdeath99
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Without any evidence to suggest so, saying that Brandon or Team Jordan decided to kill off one of the 5 major characters without or contray to RJ's notes is absurd.

 

There is no way RJ left Egwene's fate ambiguous enough to allow Team Jordan to take liberties with the character dying. 

 

They have changed many things, but the death of one of the main 5? There had better be a tonne of evidence to support it, or it just falls flat and seems like people being annoyed their favourite character was killed. 

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In universe, I have to wonder a bit at the decision to make Cadsuane Amyrlin, since she shouldn't live very much longer... I suppose she could force most of the Aes Sedai to cooperate in her time, though.  I imagine she'll mostly stick with Egwene's changes, and her role in history will be that of a transistory leader, one that keeps them afloat and enforces new policies.  I don't know how diplomatic relations between her and Logain will go though.  Didn't she have a hand in capturing him?  That's not going to be pretty.

 

She gets along with the Aiel, the Sea Folk, and the Asha`man. She is easily the most open minded Aes Sedai around, who values talent, loyalty and leadership over strength in the One Power. Egwene would never ever have agreed to any sort of alliance with the Seanchan while Tuon still held onto damane, her thoughts with Tuon in their last encounter prove that. Cadsuane however is open minded enough to create some sort of... agreement. She is loyal to the Whitetower, but also understands its weaknesses. I could see her convincing everyone else to give up the oath rod, something Egwene became steadfast against.

 

Once Cadsuane dies, I could see maybe Pevera becoming Amyrlin.

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barid,

 

the issue here is you dont build up a character so much give them so much achievements only to die off in the end. Rand the male half of egwene himself made it out alive

 

Then you have no funerals for her. Just a glancing remark by nynaeve of egwene's death and perrin tearing up.

 

 

after all she has done what did she gain? lost her warder in a brutal fashion and died in a middle of nowhere.

She sacrificed everything and she got nothing in the end. Even rand got peace and annoynimity to live his life in peace for the rest of his days.

 

reeks of last minute dot com death. It looked like maria and co thought we need to get rid of a major character.

 

Rand obviously no

Mat outrriger

perrin outrigger

nynaeve tied to lan and malkier.

 

that left egwene as the sole remaining member of the the five.

Edited by Elan Tedronai
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barid, the issue here is you dont build up a character so much give them so much achievements only to die off in the end. Rand the male half of egwene himself made it out alive Then you have no funerals for her. Just a glancing remark by nynaeve of egwene's death and perrin tearing up. reeks of last minute dot come death.

 

Why not? I can name about ten other fantasy series where characters are built up and then just killed off, and thats just off the top of my head. I dont understand the problem, I really dont. Its not like she died a pointless death; she essentially created an entirely new weave that wasnt thought to exist, and killed Taim and who knows how many other channelers.

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To clarify, I am open to the possibility of this being an addition, similar to Harriet killing Bela - but without any actual evidence despite a hunch and lack of foreshadowing, there is not much we can go on.

 

I would say that Egwene would be a topic that RJ left notes on. Specially if he intended her to live - I have a hard time believing he would leave her out of his notes- enough that the character could be killed by a substitute author. However, I don't mean to get into the debate further - I don't know what RJ has or hasn't left, so the point is moot until we get answers from someone. 

 

I only replied because a debate was forming around it. I don't mean to stop people from debating the topic - feel free to do so - however, I wanted to point out the futility of debate at this point. 

 

I was not meaning to dismiss your opinion - in fact I respect it in many regards, you are clearly an intelligent person. Perhaps I am being presumptuous here, and if so, I apologise for it - but I have seen many things like this descend into petty squabbling recently - again, I am not saying that this would have, it was a precaution. (Specifically revolving around "What RJ would have done were he alive") 

 

It is an interesting topic, and like I said in that thread, I can't forbid anyone from discussing it - but even if some day the answer is revealed, and you are proven correct, at this point, without further info, it is impossible to come to a conclusion on the topic. 


Although having written all that, hell, it hasn't stopped us in the past :tongue: Basically, I wasn't trying to ruin the party, just point out that this could fast turn into a spiralling debate with no end. :smile:

Edited by Barid Bel Medar
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barid,

 

the issue here is you dont build up a character so much give them so much achievements only to die off in the end. Rand the male half of egwene himself made it out alive

 

Then you have no funerals for her. Just a glancing remark by nynaeve of egwene's death and perrin tearing up.

 

 

after all she has done what did she gain? lost her warder in a brutal fashion and died in a middle of nowhere.

She sacrificed everything and she got nothing in the end. Even rand got peace and annoynimity to live his life in peace for the rest of his days.

 

reeks of last minute dot com death. It looked like maria and co thought we need to get rid of a major character.

 

Rand obviously no

Mat outrriger

perrin outrigger

nynaeve tied to lan and malkier.

 

that left egwene as the sole remaining member of the the five.

 

Hating the actual development is one thing, but concluding that it must have been not only added in, but actually covered up (because again, the entire epilogue was said to be written by Jordan) is ridiculous.  It's that incredibly annoying "if I liked it, it was obviously Jordan, if I didn't like it, than it was Brandon and Harriet" mentality that pervades some of WOT fandom. 

 

I highly doubt either one of them felt so strongly about killing Egwene that they just couldn't resist adding it in and editing the epilogue to reflect it, and subsequently lying about it.

Edited by instantdeath99
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One thing that really dissapoints me about BSs treatment of Egwene in the last 2 books is his lack of love for the character. It's really evident in the way he writes her and Gawyn that he doesn't understand what motivates of drives them.

Case in point, Rand and Perrin both got to reconnect with their Emond's Field father figures before heading off to the last battle or before their last fights. In doing so they got reminded of their roots. Egwene was constantly aware of her roots in earlier books, making decisions as Amyrlin basd on advice or annecdotes she got from her father about how to be Mayor.

Really? I can't remember a single case of this. Someone has a quote?

 

Why would her father advice her how to be a Mayor when this is male-only job in Two Rivers anyway?

 

Surey we could have had one less descripton of a point in the battle and instead had more than a throw away sentence mentioning that Egwene is now married. I think earlier when Gawyn asked she said she couldnt marry him without her Father present. Surely some grounding and a chance to show her loving nature by returning home for her wedding with her family, and some words of wisdom from her parents would have created more love for her character.

This I agree with. Her marriage should've been shown. Especially after in ToM they decided her parents and Elayne (and Morgase once she turned up alive) should be there and they can't just married immediately with nobody present. It would've been a nice scene. The way things are now, it's pretty weird. All we got were a few throwaway sentences about the marriage, and no reaction from Elayne (was she even invited?) or anyone else.
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Regarding cuendillar:  I never thought of it, but she used spikes of pure iron from the earth to make lightning rods... why not make a huge iron wall and cuendillar it in front of her people to stop the balefire?

 

Would've been a tad awesome, especially since the only thing that can destroy heartstone is the DO.  A quick shield to block a BF strike from Taim, that quickly disintegrates.. then another.. a fun race to save her people until THEN she figures out the Flame of TV weave to kill him.

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I never liked Egwene, but I did not like her death either. For me, she represented hope for the future beyond the last battle. That is because I believe she is the only channeler capable enough to stand toe to toe with Tuon.

 

With her death, Aviendha's Seanchan ruling the future and enslavement of all the channelers is a big possibility. Since their biggest reason breaking the dragons peace was Rand bowed to the crystal throne.

 

Egwene was the only one we are led to believe because of her hate, would not back down against Tuon and would find a solution to the problem. It is hard for me to accept her death because of this. I never liked her, but she is the leader the world (mainly channelers) need.

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A rather quick thought on Egwene, just before the Dragon's Peace meeting, she mentions that she has a headache that wasn't as bad as when Halima was treating her.   I've been wondering if that didn't suggest that she might have still been suffering the results of Halima's tampering with her or even some additional Shadow tampering like we saw with the great captains.  

 

I agree, Halima's "treatment" must have had something to do with her attitude in opposing Rand. It's hard to understand what Halima was doing otherwise. Although I don't know if compulsion can survive the compulsor's death.

 

I wasn't really thinking that Halima was compelling her, because we know from Rand's attempted super-balefiring of Grenny, that compulsion doesn't survive the death of the channeler who wove it.  I was thinking more along the lines of a Semirhage style conditioning using pain/pleasure.   In Semirhage's case it was stated in the books that she was able to turn individuals to the Shadow by that method alone.  (Not, that I'm suggesting that Egewene was turned to the Shadow because there is no evidence of that).

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