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Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)


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duskfire, would u say egwene's death was a violent one? would u say gawyn caused her death when it is plainly obvious it was the balefire mayhem from taim? we got no viewinga from min on eggy's death and possibilities of her death didnt match her battlefield death at all. Egwene's death to me looked like it was a sanderson/harriet planned death rather than RJ

That's not possible, since the entire epilogue was written by Robert Jordan, and Egwene's death is clearly mentioned in that.

RJ also tried to downplay callandors important defect by claiming it was a manufacturing flaw.

 

authors tell fibs. RJ may have wrote the epilogue but insertions and additions can be done

Assuming this is reliable, all of the epilogue was written by Jordan. It either is, or they flat out lied. Personally, I think the accusation reaks of conspiracy theory. If Egwene survived to the end, I'm sure Jordan would have written a final scene for her, like he did for all of the other main characters. There's no way they would have chosen to throw it out just so they could kill a main character.

Not that I think it was a Sanderson addition but we know for fact there were additions. The Cadsuane part for instance has already been confirmed.

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Egwene gave the mighty smack down! All throughout the series she has been maturing,developing to her full potential as one of  the stongest channelers of her time.

 

Its only a  weave- those words from TOM by Perrin in the dream world, gave is the clue that bale fire can be stopped- the weave unwound.But how do you  repair the damage... more balefire?  No, the opposite of it. And to create it you must let go,surrender.Rand also learned this lesson in his fight with the dark one; hearing Tam saying let go let everyone make their sacrifice.

 

Yes the crystal made me think of Rhuidean and its tree and crystals too

 

Egwene took control of the Tower and vowed she would let any one collar a sister again.And evryone seems to forget that she had just recently found out  the extent of Logain's bonding of Aes Sedai.She felt that Rand was responsible for this and therefore was quite hostile to him at the Dragon's Peace meeting, truly on the offensive.

 

Yet knowing she would die after instinctively figuring out how to stop the damage of balefire, how to reverse it  she let go for the final time and commanded Look for the light, break the seals then - she let go and her final blow was to the Shadow  and it killed those who had turned to the Shadow.She wasn't trying to wield a weapon... she was trying to right a wrong. She was the Amaryllin and she was the Flame of Tar Valon; had been since TOM really when she gave the smack down to the Seanchan.

 

And by the way the angreal or sa angreal she had it was mentioned a few books back that it was powerful and dangerous to use- the sister who had researched it had no idea whether its use wouldn'tt kill the user i.e at least to me. no buffer.Correct me but didn't Verin know of this and others hidden in the tower?

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And by the way the angreal or sa angreal she had it was mentioned a few books back that it was powerful and dangerous to use- the sister who had researched it had no idea whether its use wouldn'tt kill the user i.e at least to me. no buffer.

Quote? I don't recall anything like that.

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Suttree-  Interesting indeed. There is more in Chapter 13: What Must Be Done. 

 

A hint at these things, and some well written foreshadowing for her death to come. 

 

 

 

Then Egwene returned to rupturing the earth. There was something energising about using raw power, sending weaves in their most basic forms. In that moment - maiming and destroying, bringing death upon the enemy - it felt as if she were one with the land itself. That she was doing the work it had longed for someone to do for so long. The Blight and the Shadowspawn it grew were a disease. An infection, Egwene - afire with the One Power, a blazing beacon of death and judgement - was the cauterizing flame that would bring healing to the land. 

 

As I look closer on my re-read, I see many small things that make it a huge improvement on ToM, and even tGS. For all his weakness still remains, Brandon did a lot of improvement in some ways. Unfortunately it isn't consistent as I would like, but it adds to the story. 

Agreed Barid. This was one of the things he handled well. Some great parallels to Arthurian mythology and a link back to Elldrene in story. Also really hammers home the theme of balance. Actually enjoyed the Dragon/Amyrlin balance with them each having connections to the land although I know a few posters around here that will be livid given any hint in the books that suggests a balance between the two. The quotes below leave little doubt however.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMOL 5
Rand closed his eyes. He could feel it, the land itself, like a faint Warder bond. Beneath his feet, grubs crawled through the soil. The roots of the grasses continued to spread, ever so slowly, seeking nutrients. The skeletal trees were not dead, for water seeped through them. They slumbered. Bluebirds clustered in a nearby tree. They did not call out with the arrival of dawn. They huddled together, as if for warmth.

 

The land still lived. It lived like a man clinging to the edge of a cliff by his fingertips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AMOL 13
Within the embrace of saidar she could see the signs of color that the Shadow wanted them to ignore. The grass wasn't all dead; there were tiny hints of green, slivers where the grass clung to life. There were voles beneath it; she could now easily make out the ripples in the earth. They ate at the dying roots and clung to life....

 

....Egwene returned to rupturing the earth. There was something energizing about using raw power, sending weaves in their most basic forms. In that moment—maiming, destroying, bringing death upon the enemy—she felt as if she were one with the land itself. That she was doing the work it had longed for someone to do for so long. The Blight, and the Shadowspawn it grew, were a disease. An infection. Egwene—afire with the One Power, a blazing beacon of death and judgment—was the cauterizing flame that would bring healing to the land.

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Case in point, Rand and Perrin both got to reconnect with their Emond's Field father figures before heading off to the last battle or before their last fights. In doing so they got reminded of their roots. Egwene was constantly aware of her roots in earlier books, making decisions as Amyrlin basd on advice or annecdotes she got from her father about how to be Mayor. Instead Sanderson writes her as an ego-maniac who doesn't even have a moment of softness for her own Husband.

 

Surey we could have had one less descripton of a point in the battle and instead had more than a throw away sentence mentioning that Egwene is now married. I think earlier when Gawyn asked she said she couldnt marry him without her Father present. Surely some grounding and a chance to show her loving nature by returning home for her wedding with her family, and some words of wisdom from her parents would have created more love for her character.

Also as far as I can tell her and Gawyn never really 'did it' in the books because they weren't married. A sex scene showing her nervous and inexperienced could have reminded us that although she's Amyrlin and learnt a lot she's still innocent and very young emotionally.

I disagree. Egwene, given the state of mind she was in once she took over a united Tower, would have forced her mother and father to kneel and kiss her ring instead of treating them like a daughter should treat her parents. She seemed to believe everyone - especially those who knew her the best as something other than their superior - had to have the point driven home the hardest that she was their better and they had to show complete and utter obedience to her. Showing her with her parents that way would have made her come off even worse to people who disliked her character than she already did (and those who did like her would've still made excuses for her behavior).

 

In some ways, she very much mirrored Tuon. Like Tuon, she expected everyone to submit to her authority. Like Tuon, she believed herself to be superior to everyone and that her position somehow made her more knowledgeable than everyone else. They are both unyielding. They both embrace the trappings of power - no matter who approaches them, they expect the person to follow protocol via a show of submission and humbleness toward them. Appearances mean everything to both of them - anyone who doesn't bow down enough to them is, in their minds, a challenge to their authority and can "ruin" them.

 

There are differences between them as well, but even those are somewhat similar. Unlike Tuon, who had a Truthspeaker, Egwene had no one to smack her down - publicly and privately - when she overstepped or did something dishonorable, while Egwene has the Hall that is supposed to keep her from becoming a tyrant. In either case, the "balance" can be disturbed - a Truthspeaker that is too enamored of Tuon would not do her duty and would be uncomfortable doing her duty (I think Selucia fits that description) just as a Hall that is too enamored or fearful or bullied by Egwene would fail to keep her from becoming a tyrant (and the "new" Hall fits this as well). Unlike Tuon, Egwene cannot simply send her army to destroy anyone who resists her authority but, instead, can manipulate and bully to replace rulers that are not submissive enough to her rule over them.

 

So it makes sense to me that there are no scenes showing Egwene in a situation where we would've expected her to behave like a woman instead of the Amyrlin. If there had been such scenes, they would have merely shown us that she can no longer be a woman...a daughter...a friend. Much like Fortuona, Egwene believes the Amyrlin cannot love. She cannot be seen as a daughter or a friend, she must always be the Amyrlin, a superior being that is to be obeyed and worshiped. The only chance she has to show anything differently is with the Wise Ones, women who she does treat as friends most of the time. And that's why we got that scene instead of a wedding or reunion with her parents.

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I disagree. Egwene, given the state of mind she was in once she took over a united Tower, would have forced her mother and father to kneel and kiss her ring instead of treating them like a daughter should treat her parents. She seemed to believe everyone - especially those who knew her the best as something other than their superior - had to have the point driven home the hardest that she was their better and they had to show complete and utter obedience to her. Showing her with her parents that way would have made her come off even worse to people who disliked her character than she already did (and those who did like her would've still made excuses for her behavior).

To be fair that was in public. She was very clear how she wanted her friends to address in her private. It risked undermining her very tenuous authority having Nyn and Elayne treat as a friend instead of the Amyrlin in front of others. Additionally here is also the whole Nyn balance of power shift/Eggy coming of age that was a running point for some time in the story that plays into it.

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I disagree. Egwene, given the state of mind she was in once she took over a united Tower, would have forced her mother and father to kneel and kiss her ring instead of treating them like a daughter should treat her parents. She seemed to believe everyone - especially those who knew her the best as something other than their superior - had to have the point driven home the hardest that she was their better and they had to show complete and utter obedience to her. Showing her with her parents that way would have made her come off even worse to people who disliked her character than she already did (and those who did like her would've still made excuses for her behavior).

To be fair that was in public. She was very clear how she wanted her friends to address in her private. It risked undermining her very tenuous authority having Nyn and Elayne treat as a friend instead of the Amyrlin in front of others. Additionally here is also the whole Nyn balance of power shift/Eggy coming of age that was a running point for some time in the story that plays into it.

She didn't allow Nynaeve to treat her as a friend in private, either, though. Her reasoning - so Nyn would learn to always treat her as a goddess in public and never publicly question her or go against her authority - would've applied even more so to her parents and people who had always seen her as a little girl. There was even a thought she had, in another book (one written by RJ), that she didn't want to see her family because they would have to kneel to her and kiss her ring and she was not certain they would comply - which, logically, would leave her in a position where she had to reprimand them and force them to show the respect she supposedly deserved as Amyrlin.

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Speaking of Gawyn's rings............when the blood assassins got them, wasn't it implied if not fully stated that they'd have at most a few hours to live?  Where as we see Gawyn used them several times.  He even said he's practiced with them!!

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Speaking of Gawyn's rings............when the blood assassins got them, wasn't it implied if not fully stated that they'd have at most a few hours to live?  Where as we see Gawyn used them several times.  He even said he's practiced with them!!

The bloodknives were active in Tar Valon for several weeks. It doesn't kill all that quickly.
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Well poor egwen ... dont you all think that egwan chose dead and love as priorities over long life and duty?? Look this prophecy: She stands at fork in road. Gawyn rides up not seeing games. One road leads to violent death, the other, long life. Down one road They marry, the other, not. Gawyn smiles and chooses. From this I supppose That RJ did not know exactly how end Egwayn storyline. This explain maybe not so great ending for her ... you know no burial nothing fancy ...

Ps Sorry for bad English  :-) :ohmy:

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Speaking of Gawyn's rings............when the blood assassins got them, wasn't it implied if not fully stated that they'd have at most a few hours to live?  Where as we see Gawyn used them several times.  He even said he's practiced with them!!

The bloodknives were active in Tar Valon for several weeks. It doesn't kill all that quickly.

But what is active?  As in, did they use their blood?  Also, he had 3.  It sounded like all he used was one (it is unclear whether more than one would improve), so why not give the others to someone else?  Most people went into the Last Battle thinking they would die anyway so I'm sure they would have no problem using it.  Lan for example would not hesitate.

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Egwene actually seems kinda like how Lews Therin was supposed to have been. She's a hero, but she's also an intensely proud, arrogant person, who's a prodigy at everything she sets her mind to.

 

Very good observation.  But, do you think that she becomes the 'dragon' for the next age or does she just get remembered as the great amyrlin that died during the last battle?  Does she need redemption or does her death suffice?

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Per RJ the Dragon isn't female. Rands soul is the Creators champion and souls gender doesn't change. For whatever reason female dragon was not something he would explore. There were a number of nice references to them both being one with the land however carrying on the theme of balance.

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My 2 cents;  

 

Egwene happens to be my favorite character in the book behind Mat.  When I read that she died i was hoping super bad for her to become a hero of the horn (I dont know how one becomes linked to the horn but i felt like she should).  And then i wanted her ending story line to be somewhat like that of Birgitte's, where she gets to mingle a little after Rand reseals the DO.  I wanted to see all of the characters who left the two rivers, together one last time at the end, since they haven't all been together since the first book.  Then they could all say goodbye to Egwene and each other as they all knowingly try to get away from each other for the complications they have all been in.  

 

Idk i felt like that was the ending i wanted to see ever since they got split up in the first book.  Everyone back together one last time, realizing they did what they set out to do years ago, against impossible odds, and then all going their separate ways.  

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While I liked Egwene, I think I agree with the person who suggested she was designed to die. Everything that she had accomplished and all the hardships she had to overcome were necessary for her to become the type of person who not only would make the ultimate sacrifice but doing it knowing that her actions would change the outcome of the battle. And the story went even further to drive this home by making her continue to do what was necessary after immediately losing her warder. No other Aes Sedai would have been able to continue on like that. This was also probably why she didn't end up being ta'veren along with the boys.

 

Alternatively, I think what Gawyn did was a bit out of character, regardless if it was foreshadowed by him getting the rings or whatnot. So, I was a bit disappointed with that means of taking him out of the picture. If they were going to take him out, it should have been at a point of direct threat to Egwene's life (i.e. intercepting a bolt of balefire).

 

The death scene itself, though, I liked.

Edited by Dnara
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I can't think of any other thread for this, since Bela is Egwene's horse!

 

Do we know why Harriet killed Bela? I can think of a bunch of reasons, the most boring being that Bela was always supposed to die and Brandon missed it. But it's pure speculation. Just wondering if we actually know anything about it yet.

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One thing that really dissapoints me about BSs treatment of Egwene in the last 2 books is his lack of love for the character. It's really evident in the way he writes her and Gawyn that he doesn't understand what motivates of drives them.

Case in point, Rand and Perrin both got to reconnect with their Emond's Field father figures before heading off to the last battle or before their last fights. In doing so they got reminded of their roots. Egwene was constantly aware of her roots in earlier books, making decisions as Amyrlin basd on advice or annecdotes she got from her father about how to be Mayor. Instead Sanderson writes her as an ego-maniac who doesn't even have a moment of softness for her own Husband.

 

Actually, Egwene said in ToM that she refused to marry Gawyn without her parents there.  When she's thinking of the marriage in AMoL, I don't remember her thinking anything about her parents being absent from the ceremony, so I will assume they were there.

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 Her reasoning - so Nyn would learn to always treat her as a goddess in public and never publicly question her or go against her authority - would've applied even more so to her parents and people who had always seen her as a little girl.

Well as beer said we know last book she wouldn't get married without her parents there and then they were married in AMoL. Guess we got the meeting off screen.

Edited by Suttree
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I've never liked Egwene, but Brandon turned that dislike into plain indifference during these last three books.

 

As Bellarific noted there was an obvious lack of love for her, but at the same time I felt that BS was trying to pull his typical 'casuallyincrediblesuperawesomefemalelead' thing, despite having no passion for it.

It's a strange mix that completely ruined any meaningful impact she could have had for me (even a grudging admittal that she might not be that bad).

But I can barely remember what she did other than stamp her feet to remind people she's in charge, somehow take Taim head-on with voodoo wizardry and incessantly ramble away with her internal monologues about how fantastic she is. It all read totally bland, and quite a little bit rushed.

 

When she finally died I felt nothing other a strange tingle in the back of my mind that urged me to look back to when she actually had a personality, even one I disliked, so that I may think something other than "Well, fancy that".

All that Egwene-induced misogyny and this is what it amounts to? You win again, Shai'tan, I've been had.

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I personally feel that there was no real justification for Egwene’s death. Killing Taim and the Sharans? Bah! It just doesn’t sit with me. The reasons seemed forced and like it was just used for shock value. Egwene had SO much more ahead of her. Yes she sometimes acted a bit immaturely, but she was really young! She would only have kept maturing. And she was always held up as this character that you KNEW was going to go a long way, and was going to become one of the great Amyrlin’s.


For me the series is just ruined by this. I will never be able to read her storylines the same way again. Also, she was the only main character to die, and while many other fantasy series have main characters disposed of left right and centre, it is just isn’t fitting for this fantasy series. Nothing so drastic has ever happened before, it just doesn’t feel right or complement the previous books.

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 Her reasoning - so Nyn would learn to always treat her as a goddess in public and never publicly question her or go against her authority - would've applied even more so to her parents and people who had always seen her as a little girl.

Well as beer said we know last book she wouldn't get married without her parents there and then they were married in AMoL. Guess we got the meeting off screen.

 

Man, what was with the marriage thing?  To me this was one of the silliest contradictions in the book.  Not remembering some comment from TGH is one thing, but he'd just written her saying she wouldn't do exactly this in the preceding book.  It just doesn't make any sense.  :wacko:

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