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DRAGONMOUNT

A WHEEL OF TIME COMMUNITY

TNine

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  1. Perrin and Faile both swore oaths to Elayne, last i checked, and are considered subjects of Elayne. After Tenobia and Bashere died, Faile became Queen of Saldea, meaning that Elayne just got a very strong claim there. Could Faile simply break off and not subject herself to Elayne? It is entirely possible, but that's simply conjecture. Regardless, Perrin is not likely to leave the Two Rivers. Where did Perrin give Tam stewardship? I'm pretty sure he just left him in command for Tarmon Gai'don. Most of this is, unfortunately, conjecture. At the time of AMOL, however, Elayne had control of Andor, Cairhien, Manatherin, and Ghealdon. It is hard to say what the future will bring.
  2. As of AMOL, they are still doing it, so... The Seachan have absolute control of several nations--but very little outside of that. The Aiel hate them, the White Tower hates them, Illian hates them, Arad Doman hates them, the Seafolk hate them, Elayne's supernation hates them, etc. And if you want to talk about the largest nation, that goes to Elayne, who control Ghealdean, Manatherin, Andor, and Cairhien, as compared to Tarabon, Amadacia, and Altara. And before you say anything, yes that is more land and more people than the Seachan. I don't even understand what you are saying here.
  3. If we're going to talk about the use of the word "rightly", can we talk about the annoying way White Sisters use "logical" like it's a totem? Seriously? "Your logic was very good today"? What's next, "May the logic be with you"? Talk about making caricatures. Not that that was BS, that started with RJ way back in LoC. And i'm still pissed at whoever it was that brought up BS's use of the word "tempest". Now every time i reread it annoys the heck out of me. So thank you for that. Still better than Elayne using the word "gem" though. More on topic, i doubt BS used the word "rightly" more than RJ used some variation of the words "tugged her braid".
  4. Egwene was in power for, what, two months? During that time she was able to call upon several monarchs to come to her. Whereas before, channeling was illegal in Tear and being Aes Sedai was illegal in Amadacia, now the Tower has multiple countries at their command. The only way they've lost influence is by losing Aes Sedai (they're down to like 200 sisters now), and that applies to pretty much every power base right now. They went at Egwene's urging to support Egwene's opinion, with Egwene providing them with transportation to and from. And once Egwene agreed with Rand, they agreed almost immediately. They may not be answering directly to Egwene, but that suggests a certain amount of influence, no? Somebody better tell every ruler in Randland this, since in the meeting in the FoM we see most of them come up to Egwene and kiss her ring: Doesn't exactly scream disrespect.
  5. A lot of problems, especially the ones that have to do with storylines not being wrapped up right, aren't really BS's fault, imo. He was left with a point A and a point B, and had to come up with how to connect the two out of thin air, pretty much. It feels like it is awkwardly jammed in because, in some ways, it is awkwardly jammed in. BS tried to put it into the story in the best way that fit, without knowing how they were supposed to fit in the first place. Writing style--a lot of complaints, as i see them, are value-neutral, and are more criticized for not feeling like Jordan (which makes sense, since they aren't Jordan). BS uses more modern language, and writes in his own way. I think i would rather have that than a crappy emulation of Jordan's writing. A great example of this is the changing of PoV--RJ would often stick with one or two PoVs for a very long time, but BS is more likely to constantly change the narrator. Look at the chapters during the Seachan invasion--we get Egwene, then Siuan, then Egwene, then Siuan, then Egwene, then Gareth, then Gawyn (i think?), then Egwene again. Jordan wouldn't do that. Is that bad? Maybe, i wouldn't say so but you are obviously entitled to your opinion. That is NOT a catch-all for when BS does screw up with his writing. Sometimes he misses his mark. Like Mat's chapters in TGS--while i enjoyed them, i can definitely see how Mat was simply not acting like Mat. Egwene was great in TGS, then kinda bipolar in ToM and AMOL. I didn't like how BS would make characters almost arbitrarily oppose each other, but then again that happened aplenty with RJ too.
  6. Breaking into small groups would spread out your group, and since the forces of the Light are more mobile with gateways, they could pick and choose their battles and only ever engage when the odds are in their favor. This kind of war would actually tactically favor the Light--but come at the cost of large swaths of land destroyed by the Shadow's armies. Pulling back would simply take too long, and the choke point would dampen the effects of superior numbers, anyway. The position on Melinor Field wasn't too tactically advantageous for the forces of the Light--Mat acknowledged it straight out, they needed to provide a tempting target. It wouldn't have worked if they holed up in Tar Valon, for instance, despite the fact that the Shadow would have a hell of a time breaching that city (seriously, that city is a tactical heaven). It was a gambit, in the true sense of the word. Also, Demandred isn't really all there in the head, if you hadn't noticed. He's a tactical genius, but he couldn't let that kind of challenge go unmet, regardless of the tactical advantage it would bring.
  7. An Aes Sedai rules one third of the Westlands, and they have more pull on the independent factions than any other group. The Aiel have already shown respect for Cads, Nynaeve, and Elayne. Androl (who, as far as i can tell, is the second most influential person in the Black Tower) is bonded to an Aes Sedai, and it is likely those two groups will integrate. Tear and Illian have already shown that they still bow to the will of the Amyrlin Seat, that's why they were at the FoM in the first place. The Windfinders are devoutly opposed to the Seachan. Elayne has a small claim on Saldea, and the Queen of Malkier is another Aes Sedai. The White Tower, right now, is strong. And there's no reason to believe it won't be the center for learning and channeling for the next few hundred years, since the Aiel and Windfinders are likely to maintain their own, separate cultural identity and the Seachan are gonna have a hard time getting that rule. And the future doesn't matter to this discussion, since we are talking about the authority of the Amyrlin Seat right now, not down the line. Edit: "Has influence over" is not the same as "rules". The White Tower doesn't rule the Black Tower, but they are more likely to be able to affect what the Black Tower is doing than any other group, at present.
  8. Your point being...what, exactly? The White Tower is still considered the most influential power in the Westlands. Most of the nations still respect the Tower in the utmost and Cairhien, Andor, Manatherin, and Altara are ruled by an Aes Sedai. They also have strong ties to all of the other channeler groups. The White Tower is probably the most powerful institution outside of the Seachan, and the Amyrlin Seat is probably the most powerful person besides the Empress.
  9. Influence can wax and wane. I imagine that, with the upcoming compact, the White Tower will become the de facto center for channelers--especially if it starts to become integrated with the Black Tower. Wat. Edit: They don't hold that much territory, compared to the rest of the Westlands (and it is likely the Borderlanders will begin to absorb the Blight). Most of the countries that don't belong the Seachan will indubitably side with the White Tower over the Seachan. Military might doesn't matter cause there isn't going to be a war. Mat won't let Tuon break her word, and they have to retake Seacha anyway. In this case, the Amyrlin Seat will have a much better time winning allies, since the Empress would consider it "below" her.
  10. The Dragon is not the god-emperor of everything, able to do whatever he wants and expect everyone to bow to him. That was the entire error of Rand's thinking in the first place. He does not rule over the Amyrlin Seat, and he can't walk into a country and expect everyone to obey. We saw the results of this in TGS. There needs to be checks on Rand, people to say he's wrong. Anyway, its clear that the Amyrlin Seat is still considered the second most powerful person in the Westlands--look at the scenes with the different leaders, where they all come up and bow to Egwene and kiss her ring. Now that the civil war is over, the White Tower is once again becoming as influential as it once was. Beyond that, even if Rand is more powerful than Egwene, that doesn't make him her superior. That's not how power structure works. She's like the Pope of the catholic church--she might not be the most powerful, but when it comes to religious duties she can't be seen answering to anyone. That said, i kinda wish Egwene got Nynaeve to marry them. It would have been nice to see her call back to her roots that way.
  11. ...what tEotW, pp333, POV Perrin "From the start Perrin knew the jiurney to Caenlyn was going to be far from comfortable, beginning with Egwene's insistence that they take turns riding Bela,.... Her jaw firmed, and her eyes stated at him unblinking." Continue on for her standard brow beating and coercion. "....bullied him in to the saddle....." It should be known that Perrin didn't want to ride because he was concerned about his weight and Bela's endurance.. So i guess we have found ANOTHER EXAMPLE of Egwene's awefulness. She didn't even think about her hourse.. Yeah, okay then. Egwene had to force Perrin into the saddle because he was insistent on bearing more of the load than he should. On the converse, Perrin was also forcing Egwene into the saddle. That blade cuts both ways. The complaint about Bela is, as far as i can tell, not even mentioned in the book, and doesn't become an issue (Bela is never the reason they are moving too slowly). So even if that complaint is in the book, it doesn't hold water. How in the holy hell this scene can be used as proof that Egwene is a self-involved narcissist is absolutely mindblowing. I really don't know what to say. The same argument could be made for the Seachan and the damane. As long as a damane does its duty, it should not be punished. I'm not going to get into a semantic argument over the word "torture". Those never end well. Fine, Silviana didn't torture Egwene, just spent a few weeks attempting to beat her into submission multiple times a day. Happy?
  12. Did she say this? I don't remember her saying that. I think a few times she noted that she was very important to keep alive (as the leader of the largest group of channelers), which is a nice bit of pragmatism compared to Elayne or Rand's "i can do everything myself, oh shit i got captured". Without her in the lead, it would be hard for the Aes Sedai to unite on anything. I think she said something like that after the Sharans first appeared and things were looking very, very bad. Found it. Yeah, she's saying that as the leader of the Aes Sedai, her continued survival was incredibly important to the survival of the institution as a whole. That after such a debilitating attack, she would be needed to impose order on the chaos. Or else the entire White Tower could fall apart or fall into internal struggle again. Or perhaps she's saying that she would continue to represent the White Tower as long as she lived. It's not dissimilar to Lan's "as long as i live, Malkier still has a king". I can't really see how "I'm important" is the same as "I'm the only thing that matters". The first might be arrogant if it wasn't also certainly true--Egwene is pretty freaking important.
  13. The point is that you can't blame Egwene for acting the same way as every other character in the novel. Arrogance, and a bad case of "if I was in charge everything would be better" is a basic trait of like 90% of the characters in the book, including Cads, Moir, Rand, Nynaeve, Elayne, Sorilea, the windfinders, many of the nobles Rand deals with, etc. There needs to be a solid reason that Egwene is more arrogant than those characters, or else how in the heck is her arrogance worse? She was beaten so badly that she required healing multiple times a day so that she would be able to walk. Maybe not torture, but it was hardly easy. Later, when Egwene was placed in a cell too small to stretch out and beaten multiple times a day was definitely torture, though. And they were trying to force Egwene to bend, which isn't much different from trying to break her. They wanted to do it in a way that wasn't really considered torture, but she definitely pressed the limits of what was allowed there. And then she called Elaida a crazy bitch (paraphrasing) and in the true, subtle fashion that would make any Aes Sedai proud they tried to torture her until she was more complacent.
  14. lilltempest, i don't mean to offend, but...you're using some serious mental gymnastics to come to the conclusion that Egwene is super-narcisstic. Ascribing the most ridiculous intentions to anything she does, etc. I think she's a tad self-centered, but Narcissist Personality Disorder works too, i guess. And, since Egwene isn't a real person and the author who wrote her is dead, this kind of argument can't be entirely refuted. But just because you can make an argument for it doesn't make it true. In this case, the text rather clearly points to the idea that Egwene did what she did because she believe it was the best for everyone, and most of the evidence that she's a massive narcissist is more of ascribing reasoning that isn't seen in the text, and less actually looking at the text itself. "Egwene is a sociopath" is, at the very least, an out-of-the-box alternative character interpretation, and not something that's really supported by the text except in the most circumspect ways. Did she say this? I don't remember her saying that. I think a few times she noted that she was very important to keep alive (as the leader of the largest group of channelers), which is a nice bit of pragmatism compared to Elayne or Rand's "i can do everything myself, oh shit i got captured". Without her in the lead, it would be hard for the Aes Sedai to unite on anything. On the first one, she was at least partially correct, and people seem to miss that. If the seals had been broken when Rand had wanted them to be broken, then the Dark One would have been freed too early and the Last Battle would have been lost, or at the very least the forces of the Light would have been much worse off. For the second, she denies command of the armies twice--she's well aware she is not qualified to lead armies. I don't think she ever says that no one can face her and win...and she knows her limits (while she presses them really hard). She's constantly telling herself that no one can stand before the White Tower because they stand in the right...i suppose she does put a lot of faith in that institution, but she seemed to do that long before she was Amyrlin Seat. Once again, is that incredible optimism or horrible arrogance? I think that the books very clearly point to the former--Egwene has always been painfully optimistic, and absorbs the ideals of the society she is in perfectly (except for the Seachan, of course). She does the same thing with the Aiel--accepting horrible punishment to clear her conscience after a lie (seriously, what the fuck is up with ji'e'toh?) This is before she died or was burned out. She accepted her death before taking in that much power, she knew that was a one way trip. She noted that she had to sign it because no one stood above the Amyrlin Seat. This is likely because, you know, nobody stands above the Amyrlin Seat. A few people might be argued to be equals (Empress of the Seachan, the Dragon Reborn, the M'Hael) but she is a woman to whom kings and queens bow. It's not arrogance to acknowledge reality. Or she gave her life to seal a new Bore that was forming, giving her life so that others may live...which is much, much simpler, and more in line with both her character and all the other "good" characters in the series. Occam's Razor, man. Except there are plenty of times where Egwene does the right thing because it is right, not because it makes her more powerful, or whatever. We see this when she accepts the beatings from the Aiel to clear her name (despite the fact that she could have avoided it, or accepted far less than she did). Or when she did the same thing in the Tower, to bring down Elaida (knowing full well that what she was doing could easily end in her execution). Hell, remember her though process when she wasn't aware that she would survive the night? Her first thought upon her execution isn't her loss of power--it's the negative effect it would have on the rebellion, and how it would fall apart and leave the Tower horribly broken and under Elaida, unprepared for the Last Battle. She really is that fearless, that willing to give herself for the world as a whole. Egwene always tries to be 110% of what she is. That means when she's training to be a wisdom, she tries to be wise and aloof. When she's training to be an Aes Sedai, she accepts everything that comes her way, even if she does want to move faster. When she's pretending Aes Sedai in the waste, she acts aloof and wise, until she accepts the role of Wise One's apprentice, where she accepts their teaching and tries to learn ji'e'toh (see her inner monologue about not cheating when running around the camp). When she is pushed into the Amyrlin Seat, she tries to represent everything that the Amyrlin Seat is supposed to be. Which is perfectly in control, the figure that kings and queens bow to, someone to be obeyed without question or hesitation. Is it arrogance to try to be what you are supposed to be? Perhaps. Is it narcissistic? Definitely not. Reading it that way is an interesting, but ultimately incorrect, reading of the character. Egwene's consistently shown a selfless attitude, and while you may argue that some of her actions are misguided it would be very difficult to say that any of them were morally incorrect.
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