Egwene's Arc (Full Spoilers)

[Kudlak]

 

She didnt kill any Aes Sedai dint she ??

When Gawyn dies, she flies into a bit of a rage for a short moment before one of the Aes Sedai (I forget who, maybe Silviana), tells her that she's going to kill them, and makes her retreat through a gateway. I don't know if she did kill any but it's quite possible.

“Mother!” Silviana cried, seizing her arm. “You are out of control, Mother! You will kill our own people. Please!”

[BFG]

fionwe1987 - you could always go with Fields of Merrilor (sp? - I've abreviated it so often I can't remember how to spell it) instead of Polov Heights, especially as Polov Heights seems to now be destroyed.

[sleepinghour]

Keep in mind that Eldrene's death already mirrors LTT's. There's elements of both here. Loss of Warder followed by overdrawing through sa'angreal to kill enemies and dying in the process is very Eldrene like. But at the same time, dying in a column of Light that eventually caused a hilly region to collapse very strongly mirrors LTT's end. Egwene also has a "kinslaying" moment, killing Sharans and her own people in her rage (and mirroring Rand in tPoD against the Seanchan), as does Eldrene, when she burns down the most beautiful city in the world (with people in it?) as she kills the enemies who took her husband.

 

Eldrene didn't kill any people; the city was empty when she destroyed it.

 

"In the Mountains of Mist, alone in the emptied city of Manetheren, Eldrene felt Aemon die, and her heart died with him."

[Celebel]

Egwene also has a "kinslaying" moment, killing Sharans and her own people in her rage (and mirroring Rand in tPoD against the Seanchan), as does Eldrene, when she burns down the most beautiful city in the world (with people in it?) as she kills the enemies who took her husband.

No, the city of Manetheren was empty, she had evacuated everybody. Eldrene's action was also a last ditch rearguard action aimed at gaining time for her surviving subjects to escape as well as deny the city to the Shadow. And it was targeted specifically at the Dreadlords, IIRC, so that even those who were outside the radius of the actual blast were killed. So, there is a precedent for only Sharans being affected and massive numbers of them at once.

Of course, one thing I never understood about Eldrene's story was why such a powerful AS with such a powerful sa'angreal wasn't with the army in the first place. Her presence, clearly, may have made a difference.

 

One has to wonder, though, if Warders are really more a liability than they are worth, if their death can incapacitate their AS in battle like that. I remember that earlier in the series some AS managed to keep themselves together after losing a warder, at least until the immediate danger had passed. Love between Egwene and Gawyn never struck me as something out of this world, like Eldrene and Aemon's was supposed to be... and even Eldrene's sacrifice was calculated.

 

Also, this very much suggests that Rand's 3 women really shouldn't have been anywhere near a battlefield, as effects are much worse for a warder.

 

I agree about LTT's parallels... with the cave-out that Egwene doesn't die in despair and she does something constructive on the way out - shores up the Pattern that it is about to unravel. Which also creates a "thinness" through which the next Bore will be drilled, but at least there is still a Pattern for Rand to save.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Celebel

[XXX]

The one bit of Egwene's arc which I really liked was her little conversation with Rand just after she'd died.  It somehow seemed like the old Egwene, rather than the ice-cold, inhuman Amyrlin.  I was really glad to see this.

 

Was it Egwene or Rand talking to himself?.Just before that he was hearing his fathers voice in his head and Tam was very much alive.

[XXX]

Can anyone tell me how the opposite to balefire is a weave which only kills bad guys, Huh? Sanderson I really expected better that this from you.

 

Balefire does not kill only good guys,it will wipe away bad guys as well,hell Rand used it to blast a no of forsaken away!!

[fionwe1987]

 

We're told Sakarnen is powerful. We have no clue how powerful it is with respect to Vora's wand. If you read the section again, you'll see that before she overdraws, Egwene and Taim match each other exactly. Neither of their streams is able to overmatch the others. Its at this time that Egwene decides to draw in more of the OP than is safe.

 

So Sakarnen is definitely as powerful as Vora's wand. Which is unsurprising. Why should we think that there would be so many male sa'angreal in the upper reaches, but not female ones? And apart from the Choedan Kal and Callandor, Sakarnen and Vora's wand are the only two other sa'angreal that have names attached to them. To me, the attachement of a name indicates a powerful sa'angreal. So rare in its strength that it got its own name. It wasn't just some object, anymore. 

I think it's just a little suprising because nothing was ever made of the strength of Vora's wand.  If it's about the same strength as Sakarnen, then that means it's even stronger than Callandor. You'd think at some point someone would have mentioned how incredibly powerful it is. The other thing is that it's quite fortitious that the WT, having lost so many angreal and sangreal, managed to hold on to the most powerful one, apart from the CK. Also I wish we'd have been given some hint as to how Demandred found Sakarnen.

A lot has been made about the strength of Vora's wand. Its the first sa'angreal we saw in action, and right off the bat we're told it was the Tower's strongest.  We just attached less significance to it because its a sa'angreal for women. 

 

And do we know for certain Sakarnen is the male sa'angreal stronger than Callandor? Its a good assumption, but its still an assumption.

 

And its not fortuitous at all, I think. If it was one of the strongest female sa'angreal, it makes great sense that through the Breaking, it was carefully protected and used constantly by Aes Sedai to finish off remnants of the Shadow and fight mad male channelers. From there, one of the 12 groups joining to found the WT could have brought it along. 

 

We also did get some hints to its significance. I'm fairly certain that when Elayne and Nynaeve were using need to find something in TAR, they were first directed to Egwene, then to the Tower basements for a reason. The Pattern was setting in motion a long con. Elayne would later tell Egwene of the basements with the objects of the OP, allowing Egwene to Travel there and find Vora's wand. I'm convinced that the thing in the basement they needed was Vora's wand.

[fionwe1987]

fionwe1987 - you could always go with Fields of Merrilor (sp? - I've abreviated it so often I can't remember how to spell it) instead of Polov Heights, especially as Polov Heights seems to now be destroyed.

 

But it isn't the Fields that was the casualty of her battle. And the Heights falling is a critical element of the thematic balance in the story. Lews Therin's death raised a mountain. Egwene's felled one. Both left behind a "white tower"

[fionwe1987]

 

Keep in mind that Eldrene's death already mirrors LTT's. There's elements of both here. Loss of Warder followed by overdrawing through sa'angreal to kill enemies and dying in the process is very Eldrene like. But at the same time, dying in a column of Light that eventually caused a hilly region to collapse very strongly mirrors LTT's end. Egwene also has a "kinslaying" moment, killing Sharans and her own people in her rage (and mirroring Rand in tPoD against the Seanchan), as does Eldrene, when she burns down the most beautiful city in the world (with people in it?) as she kills the enemies who took her husband.

 

Eldrene didn't kill any people; the city was empty when she destroyed it.

 

"In the Mountains of Mist, alone in the emptied city of Manetheren, Eldrene felt Aemon die, and her heart died with him."

 

 

That's the legend. But what exactly are the chances of a Queen sitting completely alone in a city? None at all. The entire city wasn't filled with people. But there would obviously have been people there.

[XXX]

I still don't fully understand Egwene's last fight, I mean Taim had one of the most powerful things every built yet Egwene overpowered him.  With that mace he sohuld of been able to fry her to a pile of cinders.  Even with her drawing too much, we saw how powerful Demandred was with that mace.  That fight and her taking out all the remaining channlers at her death just seemed too cheesy for me.

 

And when Taim did not have the sa'angreal and Egwene had hers,he nearly fired her except for the fact that he did not now how to use the True Power properly.

 

The whole last few Egwene pages had holes big enough to run a dragon through.

[Kudlak]

Can anyone tell me how the opposite to balefire is a weave which only kills bad guys, Huh? Sanderson I really expected better that this from you.

 

Balefire does not kill only good guys,it will wipe away bad guys as well,hell Rand used it to blast a no of forsaken away!!

There was nothing, like it kills only bad guys, if i remember. It was only stronger against them ?? AKA Holy Bolt ?? :-)

Edited January 16, 2013 by Kudlak

[Kudlak]

 

Egwene also has a "kinslaying" moment, killing Sharans and her own people in her rage (and mirroring Rand in tPoD against the Seanchan), as does Eldrene, when she burns down the most beautiful city in the world (with people in it?) as she kills the enemies who took her husband.

No, the city of Manetheren was empty, she had evacuated everybody. Eldrene's action was also a last ditch rearguard action aimed at gaining time for her surviving subjects to escape as well as deny the city to the Shadow. And it was targeted specifically at the Dreadlords, IIRC, so that even those who were outside the radius of the actual blast were killed. So, there is a precedent for only Sharans being affected and massive numbers of them at once.

Of course, one thing I never understood about Eldrene's story was why such a powerful AS with such a powerful sa'angreal wasn't with the army in the first place. Her presence, clearly, may have made a difference.

 

One has to wonder, though, if Warders are really more a liability than they are worth, if their death can incapacitate their AS in battle like that. I remember that earlier in the series some AS managed to keep themselves together after losing a warder, at least until the immediate danger had passed. Love between Egwene and Gawyn never struck me as something out of this world, like Eldrene and Aemon's was supposed to be... and even Eldrene's sacrifice was calculated.

 

Also, this very much suggests that Rand's 3 women really shouldn't have been anywhere near a battlefield, as effects are much worse for a warder.

 

I agree about LTT's parallels... with the cave-out that Egwene doesn't die in despair and she does something constructive on the way out - shores up the Pattern that it is about to unravel. Which also creates a "thinness" through which the next Bore will be drilled, but at least there is still a Pattern for Rand to save.

 

 

Sorry for spam:

 

The ability of Warders to protect their respective Aes Sedai through these heightened abilities is paramount for them, for if she dies, he will most likely go insane with a sense of fatalistic vengeance. Most Warders do not survive their Aes Sedai by long if she dies, falling immediately after trying to avenge her, or going bleakly to their death in the Great Blight. Occasionally a sister will attempt to provide some sort of aid to the man's wounded psyche, as Myrelle Berengari attempts with Lan Mandragoran after Moiraine Damodred supposedly dies. Generally this only slows and blunts their death wish, not resolves it.

 

It is also possible to create a switch in bonding if an Aes Sedai knows she is going to die. In the case of Moiraine's death, Lan's bond immediately switched to Myrelle, which meant Lan could not waste his life on the spot.

 

If a Warder dies, his Aes Sedai grieves deeply but does not go insane. Some sisters resist bonding another after their initial choice dies of old age or falls in battle. Green Ajah sisters instead frequently choose to bond another as soon as possible, which led in part to Alanna Mosvani's impetuous decision to bond Rand al'Thor, with disastrous and unforeseen results.

 

Recently it has been proven that a single Warder can be bonded by more than one woman who can channel, but not without great consequence; when Elayne Trakand, Min Farshaw, and Aviendha jointly bonded Rand al'Thor, this caused Alanna to be rendered unconscious for three days.

 

Masking the bond

Both male and female channelers are able to 'mask' a bond they have instigated, cloaking it to avoid the emotional awareness in inopportune circumstances, and even muting the geographic awareness when necessary. The ability is somehow related to the ability to channel, as non-channelers are completely unable to avoid feeling what the other person feels, even when it is not desired.

 

Obedience

Even some Warders are unaware that their Aes Sedai can compel them to obey their wishes by manipulating their bond with Spirit. It is used rarely and only at great need in recent years, but is not forbidden by Tower law.*

Strangely, Rand seems to be able to resist this part of the bond, at least with regard to Alanna. The Green sister tried to force him to obey shortly after bonding him in Caemlyn, but was unable to have any effect on him whatsoever, much to her surprise. It has been theorized that Rand's ability to channel, or his holding saidin at the time, allowed him to resist her.

 

* what about this and Gawyn ?? 

[Iroquois Pliskin]

 

 

Egwene also has a "kinslaying" moment, killing Sharans and her own people in her rage (and mirroring Rand in tPoD against the Seanchan), as does Eldrene, when she burns down the most beautiful city in the world (with people in it?) as she kills the enemies who took her husband.

No, the city of Manetheren was empty, she had evacuated everybody. Eldrene's action was also a last ditch rearguard action aimed at gaining time for her surviving subjects to escape as well as deny the city to the Shadow. And it was targeted specifically at the Dreadlords, IIRC, so that even those who were outside the radius of the actual blast were killed. So, there is a precedent for only Sharans being affected and massive numbers of them at once.

Of course, one thing I never understood about Eldrene's story was why such a powerful AS with such a powerful sa'angreal wasn't with the army in the first place. Her presence, clearly, may have made a difference.

 

One has to wonder, though, if Warders are really more a liability than they are worth, if their death can incapacitate their AS in battle like that. I remember that earlier in the series some AS managed to keep themselves together after losing a warder, at least until the immediate danger had passed. Love between Egwene and Gawyn never struck me as something out of this world, like Eldrene and Aemon's was supposed to be... and even Eldrene's sacrifice was calculated.

 

Also, this very much suggests that Rand's 3 women really shouldn't have been anywhere near a battlefield, as effects are much worse for a warder.

 

I agree about LTT's parallels... with the cave-out that Egwene doesn't die in despair and she does something constructive on the way out - shores up the Pattern that it is about to unravel. Which also creates a "thinness" through which the next Bore will be drilled, but at least there is still a Pattern for Rand to save.

 

 

Sorry for spam:

 

The ability of Warders to protect their respective Aes Sedai through these heightened abilities is paramount for them, for if she dies, he will most likely go insane with a sense of fatalistic vengeance. Most Warders do not survive their Aes Sedai by long if she dies, falling immediately after trying to avenge her, or going bleakly to their death in the Great Blight. Occasionally a sister will attempt to provide some sort of aid to the man's wounded psyche, as Myrelle Berengari attempts with Lan Mandragoran after Moiraine Damodred supposedly dies. Generally this only slows and blunts their death wish, not resolves it.

 

It is also possible to create a switch in bonding if an Aes Sedai knows she is going to die. In the case of Moiraine's death, Lan's bond immediately switched to Myrelle, which meant Lan could not waste his life on the spot.

 

If a Warder dies, his Aes Sedai grieves deeply but does not go insane. Some sisters resist bonding another after their initial choice dies of old age or falls in battle. Green Ajah sisters instead frequently choose to bond another as soon as possible, which led in part to Alanna Mosvani's impetuous decision to bond Rand al'Thor, with disastrous and unforeseen results.

 

Recently it has been proven that a single Warder can be bonded by more than one woman who can channel, but not without great consequence; when Elayne Trakand, Min Farshaw, and Aviendha jointly bonded Rand al'Thor, this caused Alanna to be rendered unconscious for three days.

 

Masking the bond

Both male and female channelers are able to 'mask' a bond they have instigated, cloaking it to avoid the emotional awareness in inopportune circumstances, and even muting the geographic awareness when necessary. The ability is somehow related to the ability to channel, as non-channelers are completely unable to avoid feeling what the other person feels, even when it is not desired.

 

Obedience

Even some Warders are unaware that their Aes Sedai can compel them to obey their wishes by manipulating their bond with Spirit. It is used rarely and only at great need in recent years, but is not forbidden by Tower law.*

Strangely, Rand seems to be able to resist this part of the bond, at least with regard to Alanna. The Green sister tried to force him to obey shortly after bonding him in Caemlyn, but was unable to have any effect on him whatsoever, much to her surprise. It has been theorized that Rand's ability to channel, or his holding saidin at the time, allowed him to resist her.

 

* what about this and Gawyn ?? 

it is his ability to channel in Rand and all the Ashaman's case, because they can use the OP. So we know the rings are Ter'angreal which cast a particular weave of the power, we know this from Demandred, so maybe this interferes with her ability to compel Gawyn in the same way she wouldn't be able to compel an Ashaman

[Vin21]

Egwenes death was for sure the saddest part of the book. I really liked her character, and didn´t feel that the story with anti balefire was forced. Apart from the arguments above, with people having discovered new weaves at the right time before, anti balefire fits pretty well into the rules of this universe. Quendillar was supposed to be indestructable, for ever burned into the weave, and stil there was a way to destroy it. In the same way balefire was supposed to be permanent, but really it wasn´t.

I dont know.  Belas death was pretty sad.  I mean, shes been around since the beginning and ended up being trolloc stew.  very sad 

[Sabio]

 

Can anyone tell me how the opposite to balefire is a weave which only kills bad guys, Huh? Sanderson I really expected better that this from you.

 

Balefire does not kill only good guys,it will wipe away bad guys as well,hell Rand used it to blast a no of forsaken away!!

There was nothing, like it kills only bad guys, if i remember. It was only stronger against them ?? AKA Holy Bolt ?? :-)

Yeah, it never said a good person wouldn't die from it or be affected.  She just some how knew that it would be more effective against someone who has gone over to the shadow.

[Kudlak]

it is his ability to channel in Rand and all the Ashaman's case, because they can use the OP. So we know the rings are Ter'angreal which cast a particular weave of the power, we know this from Demandred, so maybe this interferes with her ability to compel Gawyn in the same way she wouldn't be able to compel an Ashaman

 

 

Thx for opinion, but I have feeling she hadn't tried this.

My problems are: 1. warden bond - why she didn't feel something weird from bond ??

                              2. Gawyn logic - he put Egwen and all Aes Sedai into terrible danger

                              3. BS ignoring his own warning about rings from ToM as somebody wrote there already - only working with warning from aMoL

                              4. Why not use gateway ?? I know in book Egwen planned this and leave this plan  cuz it was too dangerous, but why they dont use one small in air for scouting and one large for rescue cca 20 minut max ??  

[Masema]

In the beginning I really didn't like Egwene. But from Knife of Dreams she started to become likable, she even managed to grow on me. It really hurt when she died. I had tears in my eyes at other points in the book, but they fell there as I was reading her ultimate sacrifice. Well, I guess something good came out of it. After fourteen bloody books we finally find out what "The Flame of Tar Valon" means. Oh and the small fact that she practically saved the day for the army. 

Edited January 16, 2013 by Masema

[muddasssir]

Hi people before you ask no i haven't read the book. Do you know what the sad part is? When BS started I promised that I will read his every book if he killed EGGY te mighty one and I guess I am caught lol It seems RJ created her solely to disturb me

[Jon Paul]

Egwene's death didn't quite make u quits. It's only that she suffered Gawyn's death beforehand that I'll call it even with her after the horrible and disgusting thing she did to Nyn'.

[XXX]

 

 

Can anyone tell me how the opposite to balefire is a weave which only kills bad guys, Huh? Sanderson I really expected better that this from you.

 

Balefire does not kill only good guys,it will wipe away bad guys as well,hell Rand used it to blast a no of forsaken away!!

There was nothing, like it kills only bad guys, if i remember. It was only stronger against them ?? AKA Holy Bolt ?? :-)

Yeah, it never said a good person wouldn't die from it or be affected.  She just some how knew that it would be more effective against someone who has gone over to the shadow.

 

How come then only the Sharan's got crystallized when she blew herself up.There was not a single good guy in the entire field?

 

Anyway even if it effects the bad guys more,how come it is the opposite of balefire?.Balefire frys both the good and bad guys equally,not good guys more!!

[XXX]

BTW how did Egwene know that the right time to break the seals is when light shows up at SG?

[balefireruinssteaks]

Rand said she would know when to break the seals...I guess she figured it out.

[Suttree]

BTW how did Egwene know that the right time to break the seals is when light shows up at SG?

It was stated towards the start. She found a note during her research from an old Aes Sedai to look for the light.

[XXX]

Ah ok thanks.

[Aulduron]

Anyway even if it effects the bad guys more,how come it is the opposite of balefire?.Balefire frys both the good and bad guys equally,not good guys more!

 

Balefire is about more than damaging people. It burns the pattern, and apparently her weave does the opposite, by fixing the pattern.