Future Of the Asha'men

[MasterAblar]

The ashaman need to clean their house from the vermin that are turning AS and AM to the dark before they can start their worldly journeys

 

Thank you for stating the obvious. We wouldn't want people to overlook that we are obviously talking about the future of the Asha'man after the last battle.

 

 

well i can see the furture. I can tell you right now there will be no black tower!

 

yep no black tower.

 

no taim

 

but here's some juicy little gossip. You know what huge tower than elaida was building? Yep that will be the new ashaman homebase. right next to the AS.

 

 

Don't you love it?

 

There was a BT in Aviendha's vision which suggests that it's hardly necessary for the Ashaman to join the Aes Sedai. As for Elaida's tower, it's only at the foundations, and it's very doubtful construction has continued.

[Elan Tedronai]

Aviendha's visions are a red herring. It will never come to pass.

 

The black tower is finished. The ashaman are coming home. Where they will be subjected to constant verbal abuses from the women. Much like i do at home.

 

What happened to the good old days when women simply nodded and did as they were told?

[MasterAblar]

Aviendha's visions are a red herring. It will never come to pass.

 

The black tower is finished. The ashaman are coming home. Where they will be subjected to constant verbal abuses from the women. Much like i do at home.

 

What happened to the good old days when women simply nodded and did as they were told?

 

I don't think they'll come to pass, but they show that there's no reason for the BT to dissappear. The Ashaman and Aes Sedai loathe each other. There's no reason for them to join for some time.

 

As for the verbal abuse, well, just do like Rhuarc. Be a boulder that ignores the storm. It'll pass. Eventually.

[1Brotherbill]

The browns will bring the Ashaman and Aes Sadei together. After all once they see the things that men and women can do with the power. Everyone will jump on that train and ride it to the end of the next age.

[Elan Tedronai]

Aviendha's visions are a red herring. It will never come to pass.

 

The black tower is finished. The ashaman are coming home. Where they will be subjected to constant verbal abuses from the women. Much like i do at home.

 

What happened to the good old days when women simply nodded and did as they were told?

 

I don't think they'll come to pass, but they show that there's no reason for the BT to dissappear. The Ashaman and Aes Sedai loathe each other. There's no reason for them to join for some time.

 

As for the verbal abuse, well, just do like Rhuarc. Be a boulder that ignores the storm. It'll pass. Eventually.

 

The BT days are numbered. It was from the moment elaida had her foretelling. Expect to see a massive battle in AMOL prologue. As for the AS and AM, before there was a reason for the loathing.

 

 

Not anymore. The train has already departed when AS and AM started to bond one another

[MasterAblar]

Aviendha's visions are a red herring. It will never come to pass.

 

The black tower is finished. The ashaman are coming home. Where they will be subjected to constant verbal abuses from the women. Much like i do at home.

 

What happened to the good old days when women simply nodded and did as they were told?

 

I don't think they'll come to pass, but they show that there's no reason for the BT to dissappear. The Ashaman and Aes Sedai loathe each other. There's no reason for them to join for some time.

 

As for the verbal abuse, well, just do like Rhuarc. Be a boulder that ignores the storm. It'll pass. Eventually.

 

The BT days are numbered. It was from the moment elaida had her foretelling. Expect to see a massive battle in AMOL prologue. As for the AS and AM, before there was a reason for the loathing.

 

 

Not anymore. The train has already departed when AS and AM started to bond one another

 

If only people were so reasonable and rational. People don't just forget their hate from one day to the next. World War 2 may never have happened if that were the case. Or at least not for the same reasons.

 

Elaida's foretelling doesn't say the BT is doomed to be destroyed, it says it will be "rent in fire and blood". Not only could that be metaphoric, but there's no reason to think the entire complex will be wiped out. And even if it was, the Ashaman can just rebuild it.

 

I do think there will be a battle there, but I doubt it'll be the end of the dark Ashaman. Just as many of the Black Ajah escaped, so will the black Ashaman. Taim is too smart to let everything he's built go to ruin. The BT itself is meaningless to him. Once he's been discovered there's no reason for him to stay there.

 

As for the bondings, they have almost all been forced or through blackmail. The only ones that weren't that I can think of are Rand's with Elayne (which is a special case, as they are far more than just Ashaman and Aes Sedai), and Karldin Manfor with Beldeine Nyram.

 

Even Androl doesn't trust the Aes Sedai, and he's a pretty reasonable guy.

 

Overall, no trust at all, and a lot of hate. The first takes time to build, and the second takes time to fade. It may never for some.

[baalsmistress]

If Taim has as many Ashamen converted as I suspect he does, any operation to assault the tower will turn into one of the biggest, nastiest power battles the world has seen since the last 10 years of the age of legends. To be honest, despite my utter disdain for Elayne as a character - I positively despise her cavalier attitude given her station and pregnancy, I feel sorry for her - she's going to have to deal with a massive trolloc invasion of Caemlyn, AND the largest power battle anyone alive has seen boith happening in her realm.

 

Half the Ashaman are out of the Tower already, so they can't be turned. It's not really clear how many Ashaman at the BT are darkfriends or turned, but those who support Rand are clearly outnumbered. However there can't have been too many Ashaman turned either, or people would have started noticing. I can't imagine that more than half the Ashaman currently at the BT are for the shadow, whether willingly or not.

 

That said if Rand or Logain (or both) returns with all the Ashaman, I doubt Taim will try and fight. He'd be smarter to leave with what he's got, instead of risk losing it for a meaningless cause. Once he's been discovered there will be no reason to stay at the BT. And Taim has never acted like a fool. There should be a battle at the BT (afterall, there's the foretelling), but I doubt it'll turn into a battle to the death between the two sides.

 

What I find interesting is that overall, the Shadow is completely outnumbered in terms of channellers. I think about a fifth of the Aes Sedai were black, and if it's the same proportions among other channelling groups (except the damane who don't have the liberty of choosing to serve the Shadow), then the DO has a big problem.

 

It's going to be an interesting ride.

 

If I was going to be actually pedantic (and I'm from Cambridge, so pedantry is as much in my blood as Manetheren is in Mat and Perrin) I'd point out that it's likely that ALL the Ashamen in the BT are shadowsworn. Since that's likely the criterion for being raised to Ashaman by Taim.

[Mr Ares]

Mistress of Baal, if you were that pedantic you would have noted that Asha'man is the plural of Asha'man. What is the world coming to? In my day, that sort of second rate pedantry was confined to Oxford.

[baalsmistress]

*chuckles* You are, of course, correct :)

[mb]

Black Tower in Eliada's Foretelling to me represents the people living there.

In prophecy, locations often mean their respective residents.

 

In combination with Nicola's Foretelling (guardains equalling servants), "rent" in Elaida's Foretelling I interpret as "divide"/"split"/etc.

 

Edit::

"blood and fire" I interpret as battle.

[shadowofomioc]

If Taim has as many Ashamen converted as I suspect he does, any operation to assault the tower will turn into one of the biggest, nastiest power battles the world has seen since the last 10 years of the age of legends. To be honest, despite my utter disdain for Elayne as a character - I positively despise her cavalier attitude given her station and pregnancy, I feel sorry for her - she's going to have to deal with a massive trolloc invasion of Caemlyn, AND the largest power battle anyone alive has seen boith happening in her realm.

 

Half the Ashaman are out of the Tower already, so they can't be turned. It's not really clear how many Ashaman at the BT are darkfriends or turned, but those who support Rand are clearly outnumbered. However there can't have been too many Ashaman turned either, or people would have started noticing. I can't imagine that more than half the Ashaman currently at the BT are for the shadow, whether willingly or not.

 

That said if Rand or Logain (or both) returns with all the Ashaman, I doubt Taim will try and fight. He'd be smarter to leave with what he's got, instead of risk losing it for a meaningless cause. Once he's been discovered there will be no reason to stay at the BT. And Taim has never acted like a fool. There should be a battle at the BT (afterall, there's the foretelling), but I doubt it'll turn into a battle to the death between the two sides.

 

What I find interesting is that overall, the Shadow is completely outnumbered in terms of channellers. I think about a fifth of the Aes Sedai were black, and if it's the same proportions among other channelling groups (except the damane who don't have the liberty of choosing to serve the Shadow), then the DO has a big problem.

 

It's going to be an interesting ride.

 

If I was going to be actually pedantic (and I'm from Cambridge, so pedantry is as much in my blood as Manetheren is in Mat and Perrin) I'd point out that it's likely that ALL the Ashamen in the BT are shadowsworn. Since that's likely the criterion for being raised to Ashaman by Taim.

 

But not all the Asha'man are in Taim's faction so not all of them will be Shadowsworn. Of course the Dark One and a Forsaken is going to infiltrate the BT, that is a given. But I doubt it is all of them. I suspect 3/4th of them by the time Rand intervenes will be with Taim in some way. While a small portion will join up with Rand and fight in the last battle.

 

Something tells me the war of the Black Tower factions will make the Seachan wars so far seem tame in comparison. Forsaken fighting, Asha'man fighting, Rand fighting, Aes Sedai fighting, etc. Will be ugly.

[Locksmith]

The key phrase for the future of the Asha'man is in Nicola's Foretelling that the guardians will balance the servants. Any arrangement where they move to Tar Valon, whether as warders or not, will end up with the Aes Sedai in a superior position. The Aes Sedai will no doubt see themselves as in the superior position, especially if the Asha'man are all bonded, and treat the men accordingly. The Asha'man will get some major credit for what they do in the Last Battle, but they can only build on it if they operate for the most part alone. If they are always with Aes Sedai the women will be seen as keeping them under control and the men will still be distrusted by the public. This distrust will happen to some degree anyway but the public will get over it quicker if they see the Asha'man are keeping themselves in line. So in the long term, to truly balance the Aes Sedai, the Asha'man must maintain some degree of separation.

 

As for their role, I can see them trying to set themselves up as a mirror to the Aes Sedai by giving rulers Asha'man advisers. They may need to do contract work for money. Right now they are probably using money from Rand's taxes but that will dry up after the Last Battle. Unless the Black Tower becomes the commercial center that Tar Valon is, extremely unlikely, they will need another form of income to support themselves. Part of that could come from the Andoran crown in return for a promise to aid in the defence of Andor against certain threats (ex. the Seanchan.)

 

In the short term, as has been pointed out the fact that the Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood does not mean it will be wiped off the map. One could say the White Tower was rent in fire and blood after the Seanchan raid. I think Logain will team up with the Aes Sedai outside the walls to retake the tower. Nynaeve would have to be a total idiot not to teach them how to remove the taint induced madness given that they are there to take Asha'man as warders, when she took Lan's bond from Myrelle. This manner of healing could work on the 13x13 turning , thus allowing Logain to take the tower man by man and increasing his forces while reducing Taim's.

[MasterAblar]

The key phrase for the future of the Asha'man is in Nicola's Foretelling that the guardians will balance the servants. Any arrangement where they move to Tar Valon, whether as warders or not, will end up with the Aes Sedai in a superior position. The Aes Sedai will no doubt see themselves as in the superior position, especially if the Asha'man are all bonded, and treat the men accordingly. The Asha'man will get some major credit for what they do in the Last Battle, but they can only build on it if they operate for the most part alone. If they are always with Aes Sedai the women will be seen as keeping them under control and the men will still be distrusted by the public. This distrust will happen to some degree anyway but the public will get over it quicker if they see the Asha'man are keeping themselves in line. So in the long term, to truly balance the Aes Sedai, the Asha'man must maintain some degree of separation.

 

As for their role, I can see them trying to set themselves up as a mirror to the Aes Sedai by giving rulers Asha'man advisers. They may need to do contract work for money. Right now they are probably using money from Rand's taxes but that will dry up after the Last Battle. Unless the Black Tower becomes the commercial center that Tar Valon is, extremely unlikely, they will need another form of income to support themselves. Part of that could come from the Andoran crown in return for a promise to aid in the defence of Andor against certain threats (ex. the Seanchan.)

 

In the short term, as has been pointed out the fact that the Black Tower will be rent in fire and blood does not mean it will be wiped off the map. One could say the White Tower was rent in fire and blood after the Seanchan raid. I think Logain will team up with the Aes Sedai outside the walls to retake the tower. Nynaeve would have to be a total idiot not to teach them how to remove the taint induced madness given that they are there to take Asha'man as warders, when she took Lan's bond from Myrelle. This manner of healing could work on the 13x13 turning , thus allowing Logain to take the tower man by man and increasing his forces while reducing Taim's.

 

I agree with most of what you've said, however there are a few things I want to point out:

 

First of all the Ashaman are not really fit to be advisors. The only training they get is in fighting, so things will have to change there for them to become advisors. Not to mention that until the Ashaman are trusted, it's unlikely anyone will want them as advisors. Their best bet for "allies" would be the Borderlanders, who would certainly appreciate the Ashamans' talents.

 

As for getting money, it sort of depends on where they'll be after the Last Battle. If they're still at the BT and Elayne grants them that land (for whatever reason), then I suppose they can tax people there. They can offer gateways to people, and probably would have an easier time than the Aes Sedai accepting to do such basic work, which Aes Sedai might consider below them. However I think it's best for them to stay neutral, so a promise to defend Andor would, in my opinion, give Andor too much power.

 

Also, it's going to take quite a bit more than the few Aes Sedai currently outside the BT to send Taim and his darkfriends running. I believe Rand means to return, and if he does he might take all the Ashaman currently outside the BT (which should be nearly half of them), to force Taim out, and hopefully getting the Ashaman who haven't chosen a side yet, to join him. I doubt the Aes Sedai, apart from perhaps Pevara since she seems important, will have much of a part. The Ashaman should cleanse their own tower, just as the Aes Sedai did theirs. Also notive the opposing ways in which they would cleanse their respective towers: the Aes Sedai did it through secrecy and manipulation, which is similar to how they act, and even somewhat to saidar, whereas the Ashaman would do in a direct and violent manner, which is again similar to how they act, and to saidin.

 

Lastly, I doubt anyone apart from Nyneave could do what she did. Perhaps the greatest healers in the world could manage it, but I rather doubt it. However, I don't think that's how the turned channellers could be brought back to the light. Seeing as the manner in which the turning affects a person seems to be related more to their soul or spirit, I would say that if anyone can bring them back, it's Rand, with his taveren powers. And it would be fitting, since the Dragon's actions once led to the fall of male channellers, and now his actions would result in their return to the light.

[Kahsm]

Clearly you have not yet learned that anything short of death can be healed (and even that has a footnote regarding HotHs). The 'limits' on healing are shattered time and time again. 13x13-ing can be healed!

 

Even Sam's scar, the Chosen talk about him finally getting it removed once he gets his revenge, you'd think that'd be like Thom's leg, too late to heal. And I'm sure it is, just Moir doesn't know what she's talking about.

[Durinax]

I could see the Asha man building infrastructure, developing better transport systems, doing actual police work, etc

[Suttree]

As for their role, I can see them trying to set themselves up as a mirror to the Aes Sedai by giving rulers Asha'man advisers. They may need to do contract work for money. Right now they are probably using money from Rand's taxes but that will dry up after the Last Battle. Unless the Black Tower becomes the commercial center that Tar Valon is, extremely unlikely, they will need another form of income to support themselves. Part of that could come from the Andoran crown in return for a promise to aid in the defence of Andor against certain threats (ex. the Seanchan.)

 

As Mastar Ablar pointed out at present the Ashaman have very little skills that would enable them to be advisors. They are weapons and nothing more for now.

 

As for the BT becoming a commercial center, as you mentioned that is unrealistic for a number of reasons. First TV is the most wealthy city and has the biggest amount of trade due mostly to geography. It is the prime n/s corridor for goods from the borderlands and has flourished as such. Not only is it remote but the BT would not even be able to begin due to it's status in Andor. They are barely tolerated as is and Andor would not allow them to set up an independent commerce situation.

 

The biggest problem is going to be the mindset against male channelers is going to be very hard to overcome. Rand laments the fact that no one believes Saidin is clean and prejudice runs very high. I actually think balancing the WT would help them overcome this and Elaida's tower to me is the perfect place for the BT to relocate after the cleansing of Taim and his DF ashaman.

[Lisa Campbell]

I don't think there'll be a Black or a White Tower (functioning at full potential) after all is said and done.

 

I think that together they will build a new "Hall of the Servants" where ever the DO's prison ends up being (my pet theory has always been Aridhol).

 

At first, the AS and AM won't trust each other as a general rule, and will be keeping as much of an eye on each other as on the new prison, which is the reason they are there.

[Locksmith]

On the subject of Asha'man advisers, there will probably still be a few hundred Asha'man left after the Last Battle. They will not have the decades of experience that Aes Sedai do but Logain should be able to find a dozen or so who are capable enough to go to the major powers to represent the Black Tower. Rulers will accept them based on the abilities they proved in the Last Battle even if they are constantly looking at the Asha'man out of the corner of their eyes for signs of madness. At first, they will not even need to give actual advise. Their purpose will be promote good feeling towards the Asha'man by being useful and visibly sane. Rodel Ituralde and Perrin have already seen the value of having Asha'man assigned to them. Logain just needs to see that these types of relationships continue.

[Suttree]

On the subject of Asha'man advisers, there will probably still be a few hundred Asha'man left after the Last Battle. They will not have the decades of experience that Aes Sedai do but Logain should be able to find a dozen or so who are capable enough to go to the major powers to represent the Black Tower. Rulers will accept them based on the abilities they proved in the Last Battle even if they are constantly looking at the Asha'man out of the corner of their eyes for signs of madness. At first, they will not even need to give actual advise. Their purpose will be promote good feeling towards the Asha'man by being useful and visibly sane. Rodel Ituralde and Perrin have already seen the value of having Asha'man assigned to them. Logain just needs to see that these types of relationships continue.

 

Why would rulers take on an advisor with no skills as such and very little world experience. Remember the majority of Ashaman are from flyspeck villages. Even for the few nobles it's not a given that they have that skill set. Even though AS have been involved with thrones for thousands of years they are still viewed with distrust some places. Multiply that times a thousand for male channelers. Remember most in the general populace don't even believe Saidin is clean. These two things combined are going to make it very difficult if they try to go at things alone.

 

TGS

Rand gritted his teeth, forcing down another burst of anger, his hand forming a fist. He had cleansed the taint! He, Rand al'Thor, had performed a deed the likes of which had not been seen since the Age of Legends. And how was it treated? With suspicion and doubt. Most assumed that he was going mad, and therefore seeing a "cleansing" that had not really happened.

 

Men who could channel were always distrusted. Yet they were the only ones who could confirm what Rand said! He'd imagined joy and wonder at the victory, but he should have known better. Though male Aes Sedai had once been as respected as their female counterparts, that had been long ago. The days of Jorlen Corbesan had been lost in time. All people could remember now was the Breaking and the Madness.

 

They hated male channelers.

[David Selig]

Why would rulers take on an advisor with no skills as such and very little world experience. Remember the majority of Ashaman are from flyspeck villages. Even for the few nobles it's not a given that they have that skill set. Even though AS have been involved with thrones for thousands of years they are still viewed with distrust some places.

Because the rulers would want to have good relations with a powerful organisation which consists of people who can turn their capitol into ruins without much trouble. Similar to why they took Aes Sedai advisors. Do you think Morgase had Elaida as an advisor for her non-existent diplomatic skills and low intelligence? She did it to keep up the good relationship with the Tower.

[Suttree]

Why would rulers take on an advisor with no skills as such and very little world experience. Remember the majority of Ashaman are from flyspeck villages. Even for the few nobles it's not a given that they have that skill set. Even though AS have been involved with thrones for thousands of years they are still viewed with distrust some places.

Because the rulers would want to have good relations with a powerful organisation which consists of people who can turn their capitol into ruins without much trouble. Similar to why they took Aes Sedai advisors. Do you think Morgase had Elaida as an advisor for her non-existent diplomatic skills and low intelligence? She did it to keep up the good relationship with the Tower.

 

Do we actually have examples of Elaida being incompetent as Andor's advisor? Not that she was ever incredibly skilled but I feel like things went rapidly down hill after Fain and the BA's influence.

 

No, without anything to legitimize them I don't see rulers just taking Ashaman on for the hell of it. Of course that could change based on skills gained during TG.

[Elan Tedronai]

Rent in fire and blood. Does that sound to you as survivable? I can't believe people are actually comparing the seanchan raid to this elaida's foretlling?

 

The black tower is infested with darkies and has been bubbling for a while now. There are people being turned and aes sedai been mixed in the boiling cauldron.

 

 

The black tower is finished. It will be destroyed and vapourised. People are going to die by tens of hundreds. It's going to be a bloodbath. it will be nothing compared to the white tower attack. That was an attack by outside force. In the BT, the inhabitants themselves are at war.

 

 

It's going to be like the siuan sanche demotion. Only much much worse.

[Eht Slat Meit]

Rent in fire and blood. Does that sound to you as survivable? I can't believe people are actually comparing the seanchan raid to this elaida's foretlling?

 

The black tower is infested with darkies and has been bubbling for a while now. There are people being turned and aes sedai been mixed in the boiling cauldron.

 

The black tower is finished. It will be destroyed and vapourised. People are going to die by tens of hundreds. It's going to be a bloodbath. it will be nothing compared to the white tower attack. That was an attack by outside force. In the BT, the inhabitants themselves are at war.

 

Whatever happens to the Black Tower, White Tower, and those who constitute their ranks, there's good reason to believe that when the battle is over, the things that matter stand equal. Perhaps it will be because both will be razed, and the survivors are left to build anew.

 

...The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants...

[Suttree]

Whatever happens to the Black Tower, White Tower, and those who constitute their ranks, there's good reason to believe that when the battle is over, the things that matter stand equal. Perhaps it will be because both will be razed, and the survivors are left to build anew.

 

...The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants...

 

Far more likely to my mind is the BT taking over "Elaida's palace" and the two groups becoming united.

[MasterAblar]

Rent in fire and blood. Does that sound to you as survivable? I can't believe people are actually comparing the seanchan raid to this elaida's foretlling?

 

The black tower is infested with darkies and has been bubbling for a while now. There are people being turned and aes sedai been mixed in the boiling cauldron.

 

 

The black tower is finished. It will be destroyed and vapourised. People are going to die by tens of hundreds. It's going to be a bloodbath. it will be nothing compared to the white tower attack. That was an attack by outside force. In the BT, the inhabitants themselves are at war.

 

 

It's going to be like the siuan sanche demotion. Only much much worse.

 

"Rent in fire and blood" simply sounds like a violent battle to me. I don't see how that should stop the Ashaman from remaining where they are.

 

Whatever happens to the Black Tower, White Tower, and those who constitute their ranks, there's good reason to believe that when the battle is over, the things that matter stand equal. Perhaps it will be because both will be razed, and the survivors are left to build anew.

 

...The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants...

 

Far more likely to my mind is the BT taking over "Elaida's palace" and the two groups becoming united.

 

United in what? Disliking each other?

 

Why would Egwene want them there? Why would the Ashaman want to go there? In time they might join, but I doubt it's going to happen so quickly.