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Future Of the Asha'men


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United in what? Disliking each other?

 

Why would Egwene want them there? Why would the Ashaman want to go there? In time they might join, but I doubt it's going to happen so quickly.

 

United in fulfilling RJ's central theme of balance.

 

I know you are opposed to the idea(at least initially) but both groups have much to gain and learn from the other. I would be surprised if the story ends without some sort of accord between the two.

Edited by Suttree
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Do we actually have examples of Elaida being incompetent as Andor's advisor? Not that she was ever incredibly skilled but I feel like things went rapidly down hill after Fain and the BA's influence.

 

No, without anything to legitimize them I don't see rulers just taking Ashaman on for the hell of it. Of course that could change based on skills gained during TG.

I don't recall it being stated outright how Elaida did as an advisor, but there are quite a few indications that she was pretty bad at the job - Gareth Bryne disliked her and said she won't be a good Amyrlin, everyone in Caemlyn in EOTW seem to dislike her, including the loyal supporters like Almer Bunt, and I don't recall a single mention of Elaida teaching or showing Elayne or her brothers anything useful at all. Plus she only became an advisor because of the Foretelling, it's clear her personality wasn't suited for such a role at all, since she always wanted to lead herself and to things only her way, she even chose an Ajah who usually stays away from politics outside the Tower.

 

My points is that it seems that having an Aes Sedai advisor is a lot more about ensuring good relations with the White Tower than having her help with her political acumen. Morgase did fine for decades with Elaida. The Asha'man can easily find a handful of educated guys who can a decent job in a similar role if they chose such a path. I don't think they will, at least not at first, but they can. They will probably expand their curriculum after the Last Battle quite a bit anyway when there won't be such a need to to learn channelling ASAP.

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My points is that it seems that having an Aes Sedai advisor is a lot more about ensuring good relations with the White Tower than having her help with her political acumen. Morgase did fine for decades with Elaida. The Asha'man can easily find a handful of educated guys who can a decent job in a similar role if they chose such a path. I don't think they will, at least not at first, but they can. They will probably expand their curriculum after the Last Battle quite a bit anyway when there won't be such a need to to learn channelling ASAP.

 

I don't think the idea is that far fetched but you are using one extreme example to make that point. We have no indication whatsoever that AS advisors are merely figureheads to ensure good relations. On the contrary we have numerous examples of how often they have been instrumental in forging treaties and directing events.

 

Mmmm. The men need the women to teach them how to use saidin......... Oh wait

 

Aside from stating the obvious, your point is? Who said anything about the men needing to be taught? Considering the greatest feats from the AoL were said to use both sides of the power it is obvious they both have much to learn from cooperation.

Edited by Suttree
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I don't think the idea is that far fetched but you are using one extreme example to make that point. We have no indication whatsoever that AS advisors are merely figureheads to ensure good relations. On the contrary we have numerous examples of how often they have been instrumental in forging treaties and directing events.

We have? I don't recall a single such example unless we count Siuan and Elaida browbeating Morgase into pulling out Andor's forces from Murandy.

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How far along was the construction of Elaida's palace? Weren't the workers only just beginning to build it? With the siege of Tar Valon I doubt much work was done on it, and I can't see the Asha'Man moving into mere foundations and excavated earthworks.

 

If the two are going to become one, both the White and Black Towers must be destroyed. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire as per Elaida's Fortelling, and the White Tower will be obliterated by Travelling Seanchan.

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The Asha'man could probably throw a tower together pretty quickly especially with Aes Sedai partners. The white tower could use some repairs - just something else that may build some bridges.

 

The Black Tower was more of a default creation, as was it's location, then the 2000 thousand-odd years old White Tower. Don't see why the WT needs to be completly destroyed and the seanchan attack has been done, i doubt it's going to play out that way again.

 

The degradation of the White Tower is a well known part of the story but in so much as it contrasts with the position of deserved respect that Aes Sadai held. The adoption of the oaths is presented as one of the nobler atempts to maintain this respect.

 

I don't know that it is accurat to use examples of this degradation in the plot as representing the whole and history.

 

It is desirable for the channelers to join and improve each other. The Asha'man could be more than soldiers/killers ('we are men')and the Aes Sedai could be more than political manipulators/witches.

 

It hardly feels like a subtle forsadowing to be honest, more like the happy ending - after all we don't want AVI's vision to be true right? now that's forshadowing.

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With the Seanchan having travelling, the Andor site has it's attractions should the forsaken all be terminated or imprisioned, and the dreamspike remain.

 

A base that cannot be travelled to would be a virtual necessity with hostile forces that have travelling and channellers that can operate as first strike weapons.

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I don't think the idea is that far fetched but you are using one extreme example to make that point. We have no indication whatsoever that AS advisors are merely figureheads to ensure good relations. On the contrary we have numerous examples of how often they have been instrumental in forging treaties and directing events.

We have? I don't recall a single such example unless we count Siuan and Elaida browbeating Morgase into pulling out Andor's forces from Murandy.

 

Compact of the Ten Nations, Grand Alliance, before Elaida in Andor Gitara was heavily valued in helping quell the Civil War when Morgase took the throne and her advice was instrumental in major events obviously, Berelain comments on how much she relies on Annoura, King Paitar is the same with Coladra even going so far as to include her in his secret plans, Nisain was said to have achieved a number treaties in impossible situations, there is Cadsuane who has apparently stopped a war amongst Arad Doman and Saldea amongst many things...those are just of the top of my head but that is barely scratching the surface.

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I don't think the idea is that far fetched but you are using one extreme example to make that point. We have no indication whatsoever that AS advisors are merely figureheads to ensure good relations. On the contrary we have numerous examples of how often they have been instrumental in forging treaties and directing events.

We have? I don't recall a single such example unless we count Siuan and Elaida browbeating Morgase into pulling out Andor's forces from Murandy.

 

Compact of the Ten Nations, Grand Alliance, before Elaida in Andor Gitara was heavily valued in helping quell the Civil War when Morgase took the throne and her advice was instrumental in major events obviously, Berelain comments on how much she relies on Annoura, King Paitar is the same with Coladra even going so far as to include her in his secret plans, Nisain was said to have achieved a number treaties in impossible situations, there is Cadsuane who has apparently stopped a war amongst Arad Doman and Saldea amongst many things...those are just of the top of my head but that is barely scratching the surface.

 

There are also a few mentions mid-series when the Aes Sedai start piling up around Rand about wars that were avoided, not just stopped. Which obviously would not be in the histories at all. Maybe that's just AS boasting, but they obviously believe it.

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United in fulfilling RJ's central theme of balance.

 

I know you are opposed to the idea(at least initially) but both groups have much to gain and learn from the other. I would be surprised if the story ends without some sort of accord between the two.

 

They do, but it doesn't change how they feel about each other, or the image it's likely to give. I think it's far more likely people will think the Aes Sedai have a leash on the Ashaman, than think that the two groups are working as equals.

 

Also RJ's central theme is balance, but it's also equal yet different. They don't necessarily need to be joined. Aviendha's vision shows that it's at least possible they'll stay seperate.

 

United in what? Disliking each other?

 

Aren't there at least 50 Aes Sedai bonding or bonded to Asha'man as of the end of ToM?

 

Yes, and they were bonded against their will.

 

How far along was the construction of Elaida's palace? Weren't the workers only just beginning to build it? With the siege of Tar Valon I doubt much work was done on it, and I can't see the Asha'Man moving into mere foundations and excavated earthworks.

 

Yes, it's still at the foundations point. Which means it's hardly ready to be inhabited by thousands of men, and some of them with families.

 

It is desirable for the channelers to join and improve each other. The Asha'man could be more than soldiers/killers ('we are men')and the Aes Sedai could be more than political manipulators/witches.

 

Of course it's desirable, of course it's for the best, but that doesn't mean they'll do it. Personally I would prefer that the Ashaman grow first, and both groups see each other as equals before they join. Regardless, I don't think it's realistic for people who have hated and feared each other for more than 3000 years to get over it and join so quickly.

 

It hardly feels like a subtle forsadowing to be honest, more like the happy ending - after all we don't want AVI's vision to be true right? now that's forshadowing.

 

Aviendha's foreshadowing showed that the BT and WT stayed seperate, but it hardly showed that it was the cause for the war. The Aiel caused the war.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Aviendha's vision is a red herring. It bloody obvious at this point. It will never come to pass.

 

Basically the aes sedai and the ashaman were destined to come together the moment two things happened.

 

one when egwene saved logain's ass in book 6.

 

two when saidin was cleansed.

 

The leaders of both factions already know each other and two the primary reason for male and female channeller split is gone.

 

The black tower is done and dusted. No amount of cherrypicking and hoping and pleading will change that. That tower is going up in flames in AMOL prologue.

 

So once the final battle is finished. The question would where would the ashaman reside? Some say build another black tower? But what's the point. There's no reason for the us vs them mentality that led to the creation of the first one.

 

Once the dust settles and the battle is over and rand is gone and retired to live his last few periods of his life with min, Logain who will become the new leader of male chanellers will become the first of the ashaman to be inducted into aes sedai fold and become a male aes sedai.

 

 

The red ajah will be disbanded and will be given a new purpose. The main task of the newly formed male and female aes sedai would be to rebuild the world after the last battle. That and watching out for the seanchan and pockets of shadow resistance

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The fact that Min's visions state that the Guardians will balance the servants means to me that both organizations stay separate at least for the next age. How can the guardians balance the servants if all that is remaining are the servants?

 

Plus the AS(male and female) were one in the preceding age so it does not make sense that another unified organization takes form within the space of one age.

 

I think dragonmount gets destroyed somehow(probably when Rand dies) and that the Ashaman make their home on that spot, next to TV.. separate but equal.

Edited by XXX47
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If the two are going to become one, both the White and Black Towers must be destroyed. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire as per Elaida's Fortelling, and the White Tower will be obliterated by Travelling Seanchan.

 

The problem with this as relating to the WT is the other part of psycho's foretelling. Not sure how that would be if they are to be obliterated.

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.
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Tarmon Gaidon would be one future.

 

Before then, 2 Foretellings in combination seem to indicate that the Ashamen would split and do battle with each other.

the guardians balance the servants
The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire

 

After Tarmon Gaidon, it might be possible that the Ashamen might take oaths on a binder attuned to saidin.

The oaths might relate to Rand's speach to them at Black Tower.

 

mb, seems to me that "the guardians balance the servants" refers to the Asha'man being a balance to the Aes Sedai.

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If the two are going to become one, both the White and Black Towers must be destroyed. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire as per Elaida's Fortelling, and the White Tower will be obliterated by Travelling Seanchan.

 

The problem with this as relating to the WT is the other part of psycho's foretelling. Not sure how that would be if they are to be obliterated.

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.

 

It could simply be refering to the Black Ajah purge, and how the Aes Sedai will be rid of the corruption that plagued them for so many centuries. "Whole and stronger than ever" probably refers to the reunification of the Tower under Egwene. The foretelling does not necessarily guarantee that the White Tower will physically survive events to come.

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If the two are going to become one, both the White and Black Towers must be destroyed. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire as per Elaida's Fortelling, and the White Tower will be obliterated by Travelling Seanchan.

 

The problem with this as relating to the WT is the other part of psycho's foretelling. Not sure how that would be if they are to be obliterated.

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.

 

It could simply be refering to the Black Ajah purge, and how the Aes Sedai will be rid of the corruption that plagued them for so many centuries. "Whole and stronger than ever" probably refers to the reunification of the Tower under Egwene. The foretelling does not necessarily guarantee that the White Tower will physically survive events to come.

 

No you're right, they aren't necessarily the same. I just find it highly unlikely given the foretelling and story arc for the WT to become "stronger than ever" only to be destroyed soon after.

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If that is the case then something is going to have to happen in order to stop Tuon's invasion. As I recall Nynaeve once used 'need' in TAR to search for something that could bind the Aes Sedai to Rand, and was led to the store room where the Horn of Valere was kept. Perhaps that will have something to do with it.

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If the two are going to become one, both the White and Black Towers must be destroyed. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire as per Elaida's Fortelling, and the White Tower will be obliterated by Travelling Seanchan.

 

The problem with this as relating to the WT is the other part of psycho's foretelling. Not sure how that would be if they are to be obliterated.

 

The White Tower will be whole again, except for remnants cast out and scorned, whole and stronger than ever. Rand al'Thor will face the Amyrlin Seat and know her anger. The Black Tower will be rent in blood and fire, and sisters will walk its grounds. This I Foretell.

 

It could simply be refering to the Black Ajah purge, and how the Aes Sedai will be rid of the corruption that plagued them for so many centuries. "Whole and stronger than ever" probably refers to the reunification of the Tower under Egwene. The foretelling does not necessarily guarantee that the White Tower will physically survive events to come.

 

No you're right, they aren't necessarily the same. I just find it highly unlikely given the foretelling and story arc for the WT to become "stronger than ever" only to be destroyed soon after.

 

I think it's important to note that in the case of both Towers, White and Black, there is a difference between the structure and the people it houses. In other words, the White Tower is a place, and it is a group of people. Same for the Black Tower. You can destroy the WT building, and still have the WT as a group of channeling women remain as strong and become stronger than ever - they are what they are, not where they live.

 

As far as the BT is concerned, we may all differ on the details, but we have a pretty good idea of what is to come... civil war, fiery rage rosemary and Taim, yatta yata.

 

I'm going somewhere with this, I promise:

That Foretelling is strangely worded, not showing a consistency in phrasing. That's not a bad thing, but the wording is suggestive... You don't cast out or scorn remnants of a building, you do that to people. Which indicates that the White Tower half of the foretelling is indicating the women of the WT. On the other hand, you don't walk the grounds of -people-, you walk the grounds of a building. So the BT half of the prophecy is referring to the building, rather than it's men. (though I think we can expect at least a few men to be rent in fire and blood)

 

Point: There is a lot of room in this for both buildings to become smoking craters, and requiring something new for those who survive the final battle. This does not change the strength of those within, and we have hints that both will survive and balance each other in strength after the great battle is done.

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Maybe the Sisters save the black tower, and the blood and fire is from the Trolloc/Darkfriend/Taim army that they help defeat. Not that far from Caemlyn after all.

 

I know that's not much of a stretch from a confrontation between Logain & Taim, just that the Sisters will be more front-and-centre. Maybe Logain doesn't make it back from wherever he is and the Sisters who are there somehow (no freakin' idea how they'd stand up to Taim's minions) do it mostly themselves.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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Maybe the Sisters save the black tower, and the blood and fire is from the Trolloc/Darkfriend/Taim army that they help defeat. Not that far from Caemlyn after all.

 

I know that's not much of a stretch from a confrontation between Logain & Taim, just that the Sisters will be more front-and-centre. Maybe Logain doesn't make it back from wherever he is and the Sisters who are there somehow (no freakin' idea how they'd stand up to Taim's minions) do it mostly themselves.

 

Well, yeah, the issue is there are very few sisters currently at or around the BT. They're ridiculously outnumbered by men who are very likely better at fighting with the power in the first place. So them doing it alone seems...unlikely.

 

Really, the only thing that is going to oust Taim and his minions is something like the return of all the Ashaman under Rand, or Logain, or else something on a similar scale, since I doubt he'd waste everything he's built in a futile and meaningless battle. A massive attack by Aes Sedai however would probably turn all the Ashaman currently at the BT, except for the few who are already on to Taim, against the Aes Sedia themselves.

 

The part of the foretelling that says Aes Sedai will walk the BT grounds might already have happened. So an Aes Sedai presence at the BT for the other part of the foretelling is not necessary, or even likely apart from the few who are already there. However, Logain not being there is really pretty illogical. His position among the Ashaman is basically why he's an important character at this point.

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Well, yeah, the issue is there are very few sisters currently at or around the BT. They're ridiculously outnumbered by men who are very likely better at fighting with the power in the first place. So them doing it alone seems...unlikely.

 

Really, the only thing that is going to oust Taim and his minions is something like the return of all the Ashaman under Rand, or Logain, or else something on a similar scale, since I doubt he'd waste everything he's built in a futile and meaningless battle. A massive attack by Aes Sedai however would probably turn all the Ashaman currently at the BT, except for the few who are already on to Taim, against the Aes Sedia themselves.

 

The part of the foretelling that says Aes Sedai will walk the BT grounds might already have happened. So an Aes Sedai presence at the BT for the other part of the foretelling is not necessary, or even likely apart from the few who are already there. However, Logain not being there is really pretty illogical. His position among the Ashaman is basically why he's an important character at this point.

I doubt the Shadow and Taim are going to fight a large-scale battle at the risk of high causalities especially when the Black Ajah was decimated.
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Made an account simply to get in on this i tried to stay away from the the forums before this cuz i know i get too riled up about Wheel of Time discussions lol

 

One thing to consider is that every ruler IS going to want an Asha'man at his side for no other reason than that they represent a major power in the world, or at least they will after everyone sees what they can do during TG.

 

As for whether the BT will be destroyed by the ousting of Taim i think it's reasonable to believe that it won't. I say this because of what Avi saw in her future visions. The BT was still around until after the Dragon died and the Seanchan destroyed it. Although yes it can be argued that Avi's visions aren't valid because she is going to try to change them it is unreasonable to believe anything she does in the rather short time between her return (wherever that may be in this timeline that i can hardly make sense of anymore) and the time when the BT will have to be cleansed before TG will be enough to effect the outcome of it's cleansing one way or the other. So since in her future the cleansing of the BT didn't result in it's utter obliteration i feel like it's pretty safe to assume that it will survive the cleansing in this timeline as well

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