Future Of the Asha'men

[Kahsm]

While you, or I, may think so, I highly doubt Taim sees Logain as a danger to him. I don't think he considers Rand much of a danger to him...

[MasterAblar]

While you, or I, may think so, I highly doubt Taim sees Logain as a danger to him. I don't think he considers Rand much of a danger to him...

 

Why not? He's probably the only Ashaman who could be a threat to him. He know Logain doesn't trust him, and Logain makes it clear that Taim would like to have him out of his way. Perhaps he doesn't consider him to be a danger to him personally, but he probably thinks that Logain could be a danger to his plan. If Logain can manage to convince Rand to return to the BT, then Taim has a big problem. At the very least Taim would like to have Logain out of his way, and Logain gaining power, or influence, or support, or a couple Aes Sedai, is all very unhelpful to him.

[Stubob]

Tbh I'll say their future is as a counterpoint/balance to the White Tower. Maybe like the Jedi were to the Galactic Senate.

[Hyronimus]

Thanks for the correction Master Ablar, though I don't think Taim was happy about the bonds being created by that Ash'maninitially he later found it usful!

 

Just thinking aloud here, but could the Asha'man want to use the oath rod to 'cleans' the black tower of darkfriends as the white tower has done? If anything the symbolism wouldn't be lost on the Aes Sadai.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I think the future of the Asha'man is still completely up for grabs. They don't have any traditions to which they have to adhere to or any special obligations and commitments. They can become whatever they want to, within reason of course. Eventually they will merge with the female Aes Sedai, because that's what the Pattern demands the next time the AoL comes around. However, until then there are several thousand years in which the male channellers could do a lot of things. Unlike the female channeller organisations the men have the advantage of being united- aside from the darkfriends among them- and far more worldly. If they could actually manage to remain united I think they would become more powerful than even the WT in short order, by which I mean in less than a century.

 

I could just as easily see them merging with the Aes Sedai as see them become an independant rival organisation. As for the Three Oaths, I don't think they would be necessary unless they join the Aes Sedai as a junior partner.

My favourite outcome however would be for them to remain independant. From my point of view the Aes Sedai are inherently flawed. The idea of an organisation of selfless "Servants of All" just isn't realistic. There are some who may be suited for such a life, but most aren't. That's why there are so many bad Aes Sedai and so few good.

Instead they should become a far more worldly organisation and commercialize their services. Unlike the Aes Sedai who for the most live a life of doing nothing, but doing that nothing for the good of mankind according to their creed the Asha'man could become a self-regulating business. Kingdoms, town and even individuals could hire Asha'man for services of all kind. Asha'man would be in high demand for a lot of services: Construction, manufacture, defense, communication, transportation etc. Of course there would have to be regulations on what kinds of services can be provided, for example that Asha'man can't be hired to attack or kill someone or to smuggle goods and there has to be some sort of police to control that the regulations are kept. Instead of the lifelong oaths the Aes Sedai keep the Asha'man could apply a system of contract oaths. They could use a binder to ensure that a contract is fulfilled. For example if an Asha'man is hired in a sensitive position like as a royal bodyguard or if he works as an Asha'man police officer an individual oath could be crafted for the duration of the contract. Same for the ruling body of the Asha'man, they could swear an oath for the duration of their service until they retire or get voted out of office.

This way the Asha'man would be largely free to do whatever they want, those who wanted to could even join the Aes Sedai, though they would have to adopt their rules as well, while at the same time ensuring that they don't isolate themselves from the world.

 

 

About Myrelle and Narishma. Myrelle was initially able to dominate Narishma not only because she was stronger in the OP, but because she had the far stronger personality. He is a young man and she is several times his age, but already in CoT we saw how the balance was already shifting back towards Narishma. Not to say that he'll ever dominate her, but things will be more equal. Things are reversed with Logain and that Brown Aes Sedai of his. And that is how I think it'll be with all Asha'man-Aes Sedai bonds. Each bonded pair will determine on their own who is the dominant and neither the WT nor the BT will have any actual say in the matter no matter how much they wished they did.

[Suttree]

Instead they should become a far more worldly organisation and commercialize their services. Unlike the Aes Sedai who for the most live a life of doing nothing, but doing that nothing for the good of mankind according to their creed the Asha'man could become a self-regulating business.

 

Not sure why you would think most Ashaman who have lived a fraction of the time and likely never left there small village would be more worldly than a couple hundred year AS who has spent her life criss crossing the globe? In terms of them doing nothing that is plainly false, just look at every sisters room we have seen in the WT, it has mementos from a long live lived adventuring around the world.

[baalsmistress]

I believe, IIRC, that it was stated that about a third of the Aes Sedai were out in the world at any particular moment.

 

Sure there were some that never went anywhere, but I have the impression that that is the exception, rather than the rule.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Instead they should become a far more worldly organisation and commercialize their services. Unlike the Aes Sedai who for the most live a life of doing nothing, but doing that nothing for the good of mankind according to their creed the Asha'man could become a self-regulating business.

 

Not sure why you would think most Ashaman who have lived a fraction of the time and likely never left there small village would be more worldly than a couple hundred year AS who has spent her life criss crossing the globe? In terms of them doing nothing that is plainly false, just look at every sisters room we have seen in the WT, it has mementos from a long live lived adventuring around the world.

 

Perhaps I chose the wrong adjective, but I stand by my intent. Over the last 2,000 years the Aes Sedai have become disconnected from the mundane reality. They are free of the worldly concerns of the common folk. They don't have to worry about money, famine, children, war, weather, or work. They have spent decades perhaps even centuries convinced that they are something better than regular people, that they should be accorded respect on account of their station and not on account of their own merits. They are caught up in traditions as old organisations are wont to be. Compared to that the Asha'man, who never were put on that same pedestal, are far more connected to the regular world, even if they do know less about it in some ways.

 

 

Lol, "adventuring". From what we have seen most the adventuring Aes Sedai do is to travel from palace to palace with frequent stops in cushy inns. As for those trinkets they picked up over time, well when I visited my father's side of the family in Panama I too got a couple of souveniers, doesn't make it much of an adventure in my mind. Besides a lot of the stuff they could have just as easily picked up on the market in Tar Valon.

[Elan Tedronai]

The ashaman need to clean their house from the vermin that are turning AS and AM to the dark before they can start their worldly journeys

[b3arz3rg3r]

The ashaman need to clean their house from the vermin that are turning AS and AM to the dark before they can start their worldly journeys

 

Thank you for stating the obvious. We wouldn't want people to overlook that we are obviously talking about the future of the Asha'man after the last battle.

[baalsmistress]

Either that, or they need to get on with killing off Logain, defeating Rand and setting the great lord loose in the world to reign above them for the next turning of the wheel

[Suttree]

Lol, "adventuring". From what we have seen most the adventuring Aes Sedai do is to travel from palace to palace with frequent stops in cushy inns. As for those trinkets they picked up over time, well when I visited my father's side of the family in Panama I too got a couple of souveniers, doesn't make it much of an adventure in my mind. Besides a lot of the stuff they could have just as easily picked up on the market in Tar Valon.

 

Really hope this is an attempt at humor, because it is quite plainly absurd. Picked the stuff up in the markets of TV?

 

Yes AS status occasionally allows them access to palaces and the like, mainly because they are the advisors to Kings and Queens and negotiating treaties. That is a small fraction of the third that are always out of the WT however. I'm sure the Yellows when they are searching out and healing outbreaks of disease don't live in luxury. Greens up guarding the blight obvs don't have those accommodations. Browns following rumors of lost knowledge most likely aren't doing so in palaces. Not to mention we have seen no shortage of sisters on the road travelling in the main story and none of them act as if it is anything out of the ordinary.

 

I would never say that AS maximize the work they do in the world to the best of their abilities as they quite plainly have many shortcomings, but the assertions you put forth above are totally ignorant.

[b3arz3rg3r]

Lol, "adventuring". From what we have seen most the adventuring Aes Sedai do is to travel from palace to palace with frequent stops in cushy inns. As for those trinkets they picked up over time, well when I visited my father's side of the family in Panama I too got a couple of souveniers, doesn't make it much of an adventure in my mind. Besides a lot of the stuff they could have just as easily picked up on the market in Tar Valon.

 

Really hope this is an attempt at humor, because it is quite plainly absurd. Picked the stuff up in the markets of TV?

 

Yes AS status occasionally allows them access to palaces and the like, mainly because they are the advisors to Kings and Queens and negotiating treaties. That is a small fraction of the third that are always out of the WT however. I'm sure the Yellows when they are searching out and healing outbreaks of disease don't live in luxury. Greens up guarding the blight obvs don't have those accommodations. Browns following rumors of lost knowledge most likely aren't doing so in palaces. Not to mention we have seen no shortage of sisters on the road travelling in the main story and none of them act as if it is anything out of the ordinary.

 

I would never say that AS maximize the work they do in the world to the best of their abilities as they quite plainly have many shortcomings, but the assertions you put forth above are totally ignorant.

 

I've no desire to get dragged in a discussion on the merits and flaws of the Aes Sedai here. This thread is on the future of the Asha'man. You have only been picking on what you percieve as slights of the Aes Sedai and ignored what is actually on topic and to further reply on this matter would just be pointlessly derailing the thread.

[Suttree]

I've no desire to get dragged in a discussion on the merits and flaws of the Aes Sedai here. This thread is on the future of the Asha'man. You have only been picking on what you percieve as slights of the Aes Sedai and ignored what is actually on topic and to further reply on this matter would just be pointlessly derailing the thread.

 

Actually I've been involved in this thread since the start touching on a variety of topics. It has nothing to do with AS, I jump in to clarify when someone is quite clearly wrong as you have been on two points, both ones that you made in relation to AS, hence it is relative to the topic.

 

You clarified one of the points and I allowed it has some merit to it. The second point however is laughably wrong. It over all point has zero to do with their merits/flaws and has nothing to back it up which is why you aren't even attempting to prove it.

[b3arz3rg3r]

I've no desire to get dragged in a discussion on the merits and flaws of the Aes Sedai here. This thread is on the future of the Asha'man. You have only been picking on what you percieve as slights of the Aes Sedai and ignored what is actually on topic and to further reply on this matter would just be pointlessly derailing the thread.

 

Actually I've been involved in this thread since the start touching on a variety of topics. It has nothing to do with AS, I jump in to clarify when someone is quite clearly wrong as you have been on two points, both ones that you made in relation to AS, hence it is relative to the topic.

 

You clarified one of the points and I allowed it has some merit to it. The second point however is laughably wrong. It over all point has zero to do with their merits/flaws and has nothing to back it up which is why you aren't even attempting to prove it.

 

*sigh*

 

Lol, "adventuring". From what we have seen most the adventuring Aes Sedai do is to travel from palace to palace with frequent stops in cushy inns. As for those trinkets they picked up over time, well when I visited my father's side of the family in Panama I too got a couple of souveniers, doesn't make it much of an adventure in my mind. Besides a lot of the stuff they could have just as easily picked up on the market in Tar Valon.

 

Really hope this is an attempt at humor, because it is quite plainly absurd. Picked the stuff up in the markets of TV?

 

And why not? Tar Valon is the greatest city in Randland, obviously plenty of goods from all over the world are avaiable there. So all those rugs or artpieces or curios of all sorts you find in the various rooms of the Aes Sedai could easily have been bought in Tar Valon. To make those trinkets evidence of their "adventuring days" is just laughable. A few perhaps, but most were just bought on some market or the other. The "adventuring" Aes Sedais are the exception not the rule. The Moiraines, Cadsuanes and Verins are outnumbered 50 or perhaps even 100 to 1. We have seen dozens of Aes Sedai in action and most spend their time playing at politics one way or the other.

 

Yes AS status occasionally allows them access to palaces and the like, mainly because they are the advisors to Kings and Queens and negotiating treaties. That is a small fraction of the third that are always out of the WT however. I'm sure the Yellows when they are searching out and healing outbreaks of disease don't live in luxury. Greens up guarding the blight obvs don't have those accommodations. Browns following rumors of lost knowledge most likely aren't doing so in palaces. Not to mention we have seen no shortage of sisters on the road travelling in the main story and none of them act as if it is anything out of the ordinary.

 

The Yellows aren't travelling around the world healing the sick. For the most they remain in Tar Valon and only if they get word of an outbreak of some disease or the other are they likely to move. As for the Browns they may not look for lost knowledge in palaces, but they do so for the most in the various libraries of the major cities. I hope you don't think of them as some sort of Indiana Jones types, cause they are nothing of the sort. And the Greens up in the Blight, if Moiraine's treatment in Shienar is any indication they do spend most of their time in palaces or equally cushy locations and they aren't there in force accompanying the soldiers defending against Trolloc raids.

 

I would never say that AS maximize the work they do in the world to the best of their abilities as they quite plainly have many shortcomings, but the assertions you put forth above are totally ignorant.

 

More like you just assume for no apparant reason that all those Aes Sedai we don't see are better than the ones we do see. Aside from a few exceptions the Aes Sedai really aren't deserving of the respect they are accorded to.

[Suttree]

The Yellows aren't travelling around the world healing the sick. For the most they remain in Tar Valon and only if they get word of an outbreak of some disease or the other are they likely to move. As for the Browns they may not look for lost knowledge in palaces, but they do so for the most in the various libraries of the major cities. I hope you don't think of them as some sort of Indiana Jones types, cause they are nothing of the sort. And the Greens up in the Blight, if Moiraine's treatment in Shienar is any indication they do spend most of their time in palaces or equally cushy locations and they aren't there in force accompanying the soldiers defending against Trolloc raids.

 

Some facts for us to consider. A third of AS are outside the WT at all times. Would you have us believe all of them are in palaces doing nothing?

 

The Yellow use their eyes and ears to search out and go heal outbreaks of disease, Greens are spending time up in the Borderlands fighting in and guarding the blight,

Terez on Twitter - 11 August 2010 12:25 pm

Are there actually Warders and Aes Sedai guarding the Blight at all times? Or is that another TEOTWism?

Brandon - 4:34 pm

Well, there are Aes Sedai and Warders staying with most Borderlander monarchs.

4:34 pm

I would say that yes, they are up there guarding. There are a disproportionate number, it seems, at times.

 

Browns gather knowledge in a variety of ways not only in big cities(yes some are most likely like IJ, the one we see in TGS has bones she excavated and collected from around the world), Blues don't always work on causes in major cities(as evidenced by having the largest spy network with contacts in small vilages).

 

Also nice how you are changing your meaning now. Originally it was they are out of touch with the world and all they do is travel from palace to palace and nice inns. Now you admit they are out in the world working(adventuring) but that their accommodations are nicer than most(the horror). So yes in their work they are constantly criss crossing the globe. But I'm sure over hundreds of years of doing so, they just decided to not keep items of importance that have meaning to their work and thought it better to just buy a couple souvenirs in the markets of TV. Let's just use Meidani's room as one example of how wrong you are.

 

TGS Ch.12

Maps hung within delicate frames, centered on the walls like prized pieces of art. A pair of Aiel spears hung on either side of one map; another was a map of the Sea Folk islands. While many might have opted for the porcelain keepsakes that were so commonly associated with the Sea Folk, Meidani had a small collection of earrings and painted shells, carefully framed and displayed, along with a small plaque beneath listing dates of collection.

 

The sitting room was like a museum dedicated to one person's journeys. An Altaran marriage knife, set with four twinkling rubies, hung beside a small Cairhienin banner and a Shienar sword. Each had a small plaque explaining its significance. The marriage knife, for instance, had been presented to Meidani for her help in settling a dispute between two houses over the death of a particularly important landowner. His wife had given her the knife as a token of thanks.

 

Who would have thought that the cowering woman of the dinner a few weeks back would have such a proud collection? The rug itself was labeled, the gift of a trader who had purchased it on the closed docks of Shara, then bestowed it on Meidani in thanks for Healing his daughter...

 

Meidani is one of the most timid AS we have seen in the entire series but you would have us believe she is the single exception? For all those other sisters rooms we have seen they just ambled on down to the markets of TV to decorate with faux travel memorabilia? The whole thought is so absurd I can hardly believe you're not trolling.

[MasterAblar]

It's not so much where they are, it's how they act that matters, that sets them apart from the rest of the world. It's hard to trust that which you nothing of. The Aes Sedai don't really hang around regular people, and are overall rather aloof. To common people they're the mysterious and powerful women who counsel (or manipulate) rulers, and whom you don't want offend, or even even have anything to do with. In tGS, I believe Nyneave was frustrated because people didn't come to the palace in Arad Doman to get help from Aes Sedai (though to be fair, Rand probably didn't help there). Overall people are scared of Aes Sedai, often distrust them, and pretty much try to stay out of their way. That's the reputation the Aes Sedai have.

[Suttree]

It's not so much where they are, it's how they act that matters, that sets them apart from the rest of the world. It's hard to trust that which you nothing of. The Aes Sedai don't really hang around regular people, and are overall rather aloof. To common people they're the mysterious and powerful women who counsel (or manipulate) rulers, and whom you don't want offend, or even even have anything to do with. In tGS, I believe Nyneave was frustrated because people didn't come to the palace in Arad Doman to get help from Aes Sedai (though to be fair, Rand probably didn't help there). Overall people are scared of Aes Sedai, often distrust them, and pretty much try to stay out of their way. That's the reputation the Aes Sedai have.

 

Oh I agree with all that. Was only disputing b3arz3rg3r's absurd claim that they aren't actually out in the world adventuring and that instead of gaining items over a long life working outside the WT they bought the mementos in their rooms in the markets of TV(lol). It is precisely those types of claims that make it impossible to take some anti-AS folks and their hyperbole seriously.

 

I still don't agree that most Ashaman are more worldly however. More in touch with the common man perhaps but most have never been outside their village before going to the BT. On the flip side of AS being aloof we see how the sudden gain in power is dealt with quite poorly in some Ashaman(Rochaid, Gedwyn etc) and how arrogant and above everyone else they think they are.

[MasterAblar]

It's not so much where they are, it's how they act that matters, that sets them apart from the rest of the world. It's hard to trust that which you nothing of. The Aes Sedai don't really hang around regular people, and are overall rather aloof. To common people they're the mysterious and powerful women who counsel (or manipulate) rulers, and whom you don't want offend, or even even have anything to do with. In tGS, I believe Nyneave was frustrated because people didn't come to the palace in Arad Doman to get help from Aes Sedai (though to be fair, Rand probably didn't help there). Overall people are scared of Aes Sedai, often distrust them, and pretty much try to stay out of their way. That's the reputation the Aes Sedai have.

 

I still don't agree that most Ashaman are more worldly however. More in touch with the common man perhaps but most have never been outside their village before going to the BT. On the flip side of AS being aloof we see how the sudden gain in power is dealt with quite poorly in some Ashaman(Rochaid, Gedwyn etc) and how arrogant and above everyone else they think they are.

 

I don't think they're more worldly at the moment, though perhaps they would be in the future. They come from all over Randland, but I doubt many have had the chance to explore the world since they became Ashaman. Their travelling would have to have been done before becoming Ashaman, and while some of the older ones may have done a little travelling, it's unlikely to be the case for most.

 

Some Ashaman have grown arrogant, though to be fair it seems most were darkfriends. Overall, until the taint was cleansed, the Ashaman were rather aloof as well. We haven't really seen too many Ashaman compared to Aes Sedai, particularly in the company of non-channellers, so it's hard to get an idea of how they act overall. Neald and Grady have no problem taking orders from Perrin. Neither does Deepe from Ituralde. Karldin didn't seem to be particularly arrogant either, nor any of the Ashaman who hung around Rand. But we don't really know how the Ashaman of the BT, who are neither darkfriend nor clear cut supporters of Rand, consider themselves compared to regular people. However, they live among regular people, so perhaps that keeps them humble. It's hard to say. But being told you're nothing but a soldier, nothing but a weapon probably causes a little humility.

[mb]

If Logain can manage to convince Rand to return to the BT, then Taim has a big problem.

From skimming the pages of Towers of Midnight, Rand told various characters that he did make an attempt to return.

Since Travelling/Skimming to the place did not work, Rand sent an Ashaman.

[MasterAblar]

If Logain can manage to convince Rand to return to the BT, then Taim has a big problem.

From skimming the pages of Towers of Midnight, Rand told various characters that he did make an attempt to return.

Since Travelling/Skimming to the place did not work, Rand sent an Ashaman.

 

Yeah, I know. Grady tried as well. I was just trying to show why Logain could be at threat in Taim's eyes.

[mb]

If Logain can manage to convince Rand to return to the BT, then Taim has a big problem.

From skimming the pages of Towers of Midnight, Rand told various characters that he did make an attempt to return.

Since Travelling/Skimming to the place did not work, Rand sent an Ashaman.

Yeah, I know. Grady tried as well. I was just trying to show why Logain could be at threat in Taim's eyes.

Ok.

Though there are also these possibilities::

-Logan attacking Taim; with some action being 'the last straw' for Logain.

-Logan rousing the ones loyal to him against Taim and Taim's Ashamen.

-Logan bringing an army from various locations.

possibly more

[baalsmistress]

If Taim has as many Ashamen converted as I suspect he does, any operation to assault the tower will turn into one of the biggest, nastiest power battles the world has seen since the last 10 years of the age of legends. To be honest, despite my utter disdain for Elayne as a character - I positively despise her cavalier attitude given her station and pregnancy, I feel sorry for her - she's going to have to deal with a massive trolloc invasion of Caemlyn, AND the largest power battle anyone alive has seen boith happening in her realm.

[MasterAblar]

If Taim has as many Ashamen converted as I suspect he does, any operation to assault the tower will turn into one of the biggest, nastiest power battles the world has seen since the last 10 years of the age of legends. To be honest, despite my utter disdain for Elayne as a character - I positively despise her cavalier attitude given her station and pregnancy, I feel sorry for her - she's going to have to deal with a massive trolloc invasion of Caemlyn, AND the largest power battle anyone alive has seen boith happening in her realm.

 

Half the Ashaman are out of the Tower already, so they can't be turned. It's not really clear how many Ashaman at the BT are darkfriends or turned, but those who support Rand are clearly outnumbered. However there can't have been too many Ashaman turned either, or people would have started noticing. I can't imagine that more than half the Ashaman currently at the BT are for the shadow, whether willingly or not.

 

That said if Rand or Logain (or both) returns with all the Ashaman, I doubt Taim will try and fight. He'd be smarter to leave with what he's got, instead of risk losing it for a meaningless cause. Once he's been discovered there will be no reason to stay at the BT. And Taim has never acted like a fool. There should be a battle at the BT (afterall, there's the foretelling), but I doubt it'll turn into a battle to the death between the two sides.

 

What I find interesting is that overall, the Shadow is completely outnumbered in terms of channellers. I think about a fifth of the Aes Sedai were black, and if it's the same proportions among other channelling groups (except the damane who don't have the liberty of choosing to serve the Shadow), then the DO has a big problem.

[Elan Tedronai]

The ashaman need to clean their house from the vermin that are turning AS and AM to the dark before they can start their worldly journeys

 

Thank you for stating the obvious. We wouldn't want people to overlook that we are obviously talking about the future of the Asha'man after the last battle.

 

 

well i can see the furture. I can tell you right now there will be no black tower!

 

yep no black tower.

 

no taim

 

but here's some juicy little gossip. You know what huge tower than elaida was building? Yep that will be the new ashaman homebase. right next to the AS.

 

 

Don't you love it?