Egwene/the Aes Sedai

[Dewairah]

I've been trying to get caught up in this thread. I may have this wrong and if I do I apologize. It appears to me that Egwene has faith that Rand can seal the bore but does not have faith in his method. Does that seem odd?

 

Yes.

 

Since he took tear she hasnt really had faith in him in anything else without stuffing it up or without being hand-held through it - so why faith now that he can seal bore?

 

If its simply faith that "he's the DR, therefore he will be able to do it" .... he's been the DR reborn when he was doing all the other things, so why not have faith that he could do anything else?

 

Oh she of little faith

[Sharaman]

Egwene's taken the oaths - she can't say anything she doesn't believe to be true. Please review the above arguments in that context.

IIRC Rand hasn't said he can Seal the Bore - all he has said is that it cannot be done at all without breaking the Seals and hence, not like last time.

[Xcorpyo001]

I'd don't it's so much about Rand as it is about the DR. She assumes that the DR is capable of dealing with the DO because that's his job. And I don't it's entered her thoughts that Rand might actually break the seals without actually knowing what to do. Even though she doesn't have a very good opinion of Rand, I don't believe she would think that he would be stupid/crazy enough to do that. That's why she doesn't have any doubts. Because breaking the seals without knowing what to do afterward would be insane, and therefore Rand must know what to do since he wants to break the seals.

 

You make a good arguement, - but i'm not sure I believe it.

 

Well played, Sir.

 

 

You know, breaking the seals will not be end of the world. Let's not forget that LTT led the fight against the Shadow for decades with an open Bore.

So several minutes with the seals destroyed(at a time chose by the forces of the Light, not when the DO will finally do it himself) will not have such a disastrous effect as people(read Egwene/AS) may think.

 

But what I'm not getting about the plan is that LTT had 400 years of experience, was Amyrlin and commander of the forces of the Light, and both of their plans(his plan and the one concocted by the 'all men are evil spawn' section of the AS) were planed in absolute secret.

When he sealed the Bore, not even the AS knew about it, not to mention the DO. When he got there, the DO had just one second to spew some taint on the saidin and it was game over for him(well, game over for 3000 years)

 

And now the guy knows that he still has to sort out some glitches of this plan, and he wants to close the Bore completely, not seal it again.

And yet, he tells everybody that:

-in 30 days we will gather all the forces of Randland in one place, leaving all cities undefended.

-the second day we will break the seals and seal the Bore again(note that he doesn't even have the new seals to use for those focus points)

What are the chances that somehow a darkfriend managed to hear about this, since every AS, soldier, king, nobles, and servants know about it?

The DO already has a big X marked in his calendar for that day, so I think that's not the real plan.

 

I think this is a huge scam, and I'm sad everybody is falling for it. What he really plans, well, that remains to be seen.

 

And about she can't lie...

Don't forget that most AS say all the time(or they used to) that there is no Black Ajah. There is no lie if they believe it to be true, even if they are mistaken.

The prophecies tell everybody that the DR will somehow save the day, so she believes it to be true, even if she doesn't know how.

She also believes that if the seals are broken, everything is lost. This is not the truth, because LTT did fight the DO when the Bore was open for decades. It will be bad, but not the end of the world.

Of course, it would have been best to explain that right there, but then he'll have nothing to do in the next book. Furthermore, he probably doesn't like to repeat himself, so he'll explain the uber plan when everybody will be in one place(probably after they deal with the Trolloc/Seachan/Taim situation)

[Dewairah]

Egwene's taken the oaths - she can't say anything she doesn't believe to be true. Please review the above arguments in that context.

 

what does it matter if she means it to be true if her reasoning has no basis in reality?

 

e.g she might believe it to be true simply because she's too freaked out to contemplate otherwise.

For her - it'd still be truth.... that doesnt mean its right, or correct or has any basis in fact.

 

she can truthfull say "rand can seal the bore without breaking the seals" - and it be utterly wrong.

 

she cant do it knowingly - but thats a separate issue.

[randsc]

As I recall, she doesn't even make the flat statement, "Rand can seal the bore without breaking the seals."

 

Isn't it more like, "Surely, Rand can find a way to seal the bore without breaking the seals?"

[David Selig]

Yes, pretty much.

 

ToM, Ch. 14

 

“Yes, but the seals? That’s foolhardy. Surely Rand can face the Dark One, and defeat him, and seal him away without taking that risk.”

[randsc]

Thank you.

 

It's hard for me to read that quote and see where the Oaths could matter. She's not stating a fact; she's expressing a hope. Or even a belief. But not something that she knows, or even something that is necessarily knowable.

[KaptainKaos]

First of all, Egwene had no reason to believe Nynaeve would realize the events inside the ter'angreal weren't real; people normally don't.

 

Not exactly true since we know Nynaeve and Egwene overcame ter'angreal used in the Accepted test and were able to channel and have flashes where they knew they were in some sort of test for becoming Aes Sedai when normally that isn't the case. Egwene and Nynaeve both had a clearer picture that what was happening in the ter'angreal wasn't real more than almost any other woman that had taken the test. Neither one of them is in the normal range in that aspect.

 

Secondly, I don't think Nynaeve will ever get to the point where she "easily" overcomes the "hurdle" of leaving loved ones behind to die, which separates her from the more self-centered characters. Both she and Egwene were haunted by what happened in their Accepted tests; this time she decided she wasn't going to re-open those wounds by betraying what mattered to her the most. That's not being dumb; that's called having integrity.

 

Nynaeve was being self-centered ignoring the bigger picture and fighting a battle that wasn't even real. Yes, obviously she wasn't sure if it was real or not but she is consciously saying 'I know this probably isn't real and I could die if I accept it as real but on the long chance that it might be I am gonna go all out stubborn here' really not a pillar of integrity there, more like stubborn Two Rivers Nynaeve that she is. Plus the fact that there are still "wounds" there rather than a lesson learned shows Nynaeve's lack of evolution and insight. Not that she hasn't evolved or had insight throughout the entire series, I mean she survived the test and became Aes Sedai but come on, wounds, when she knew that what she did in the Accepted test changed nothing in the real world except herself.

 

Egwene on the other hand even included her own father in the Emond's Field scenario. Think about that for a moment. If Nynaeve hadn't broken the rules to save Bran and Perrin from Shadowspawn, Egwene would have had to watch him die. She would have known it wasn't truly Bran al'Vere, only an illusion, but still one that looked and sounded just like him. How many would be able to stomach seeing--let alone creating--even just a virtual reality simulation of their parents being murdered? I personally found that part far more disturbing than anything she did to Nynaeve.

 

As I said in an earlier post Egwene and Nynaeve both could do with an extended stay with the Aiel Wise Ones (Egwene didn't spend nearly enough time with them and they thought she was Aes Sedai most of the time so it doesn't count anyway). I'm not really saying it to be mean either, a little time with them would iron out the wrinkles in anyone's character better than any ter'angreal could. I myself could probably do with an extended stay with the Aiel in the Three-fold land although surviving that ordeal would probably be unlikely.

[Kahsm]

I've been trying to get caught up in this thread. I may have this wrong and if I do I apologize. It appears to me that Egwene has faith that Rand can seal the bore but does not have faith in his method. Does that seem odd?

 

Not at all, as someone else pointed out (I think it was Master Ablar?), She believes the Dragon Reborn is capable, because that's his job. She just doesn't believe Rand is on the right track at the moment. The Dragon Reborn is very capable of being wrong and making mistakes, so she's not necessarily unjustified in that. Though from a reader's standpoint I think most of us see Rand as being in the right here.

 

P.S. I feel all this Egwene love going on right now and it makes me happy. At least Egwene non-ridiculousness.

[Turin Turambar]

I've been trying to get caught up in this thread. I may have this wrong and if I do I apologize. It appears to me that Egwene has faith that Rand can seal the bore but does not have faith in his method. Does that seem odd?

 

Not at all, as someone else pointed out (I think it was Master Ablar?), She believes the Dragon Reborn is capable, because that's his job. She just doesn't believe Rand is on the right track at the moment. The Dragon Reborn is very capable of being wrong and making mistakes, so she's not necessarily unjustified in that. Though from a reader's standpoint I think most of us see Rand as being in the right here.

 

P.S. I feel all this Egwene love going on right now and it makes me happy. At least Egwene non-ridiculousness.

Put me down for non-ridiculousness. I don't agree with a lot of Egwene's actions. Her treatment of Nyn was less than friendlike.

 

That said, some of the craziness that goes on is just that.

[Risapeters]

My main problem with Egwene is her total lack of self-reflection, particularly in the later books. Anytime Rand does something stupid or makes a mistake or does something hypocritical, either he himself or someone near him tells him what a foolish idiot he is. This never happens for Egwene, who is always absolutely sure of her own righteousness and expects others to support her unconditionally, even her closest friends. You can argue that she needs to appear like a strong Amyrlin, but demanding her friends submit to her even in private is a bit much.

 

 

I would agree i feel like she has become very power hungry. I feel like the whole thing with logain too was rediculous. I think when youre in a position of power there are certain people who you need ( like logain, nynaeve and Elayne) to keep you a little humble and who can remind you sometimes that you arnt always right.

[DemandredFO]

Kaptain Kaos, Nyneave does have integrity, she cares more about people then a test. That's why there are so many problems with most AS, they care more about their institution than people. Nyneave's not the one who could've potentially killed her friend twice to advance her career, and Nyneave agreed to take the test, Egwene did not. We'll therefore never know the integrity she would have in the test.

[Kahsm]

Kaptain Kaos, Nyneave does have integrity, she cares more about people then a test. That's why there are so many problems with most AS, they care more about their institution than people. Nyneave's not the one who could've potentially killed her friend twice to advance her career, and Nyneave agreed to take the test, Egwene did not. We'll therefore never know the integrity she would have in the test.

 

Or she knew her friend could handle it because she has faith in her strength, and knew there is no way on earth Nynaeve would want Egwene to go easy on her.

[Xcorpyo001]

Kaptain Kaos, Nyneave does have integrity, she cares more about people then a test. That's why there are so many problems with most AS, they care more about their institution than people. Nyneave's not the one who could've potentially killed her friend twice to advance her career, and Nyneave agreed to take the test, Egwene did not. We'll therefore never know the integrity she would have in the test.

 

Or she knew her friend could handle it because she has faith in her strength, and knew there is no way on earth Nynaeve would want Egwene to go easy on her.

 

 

There is going easy and going to far. And I think Egwene's actions in that particular case are more of the latter.

 

If you read New Spring, and Moiraine's test, you'll see that her worse enemy, Elaida, added the worse scenario for her to fail, an image of her father telling her that her mother loves her and she should go to help her. That was more than enough to unnerve, her, or so Elaida thought, and some AS considered that it was to far, and she shouldn't have done that.

 

On the other hand, we have Egwene creating very intricate scenarios in which Nynaeve has to watch children, all her friends, family, or loved ones butchered, tortured, eaten by Trollocs, and so on.

And, after the rest of the AS pick up on that, those scenarios are played again and again and again.

 

Since Egwene has no idea what a normal test looks like, and knowing that every AS there wants to see Nynaeve fail, she still played along and used those terrible scenarios.

 

I know that Egwene's desire to be the best at everything she does shouldn't surprise me anymore, but I thought she'll stop when that job implied creating terrifying scenarios to break your best friend. I was wrong. She really showed those AS that wanted Nyn to fail how it's done, and even gave them a few hints and inside information.

If they use the same scenarios as a template for all future tests, there won't be a new AS for centuries. Even an BA sister will have a hard time with some scenarios(darkhounds, etc).

 

Maybe Nyn can control TaR to an extend, but so can Egwene, so she could have blocked Nyn's ability to think straight. And she didn't knew enough about the rules of the test or the ter'angreal to be sure that Nyn will be able to beat it.

 

 

Anyway, I think the test was used to test the Aes Sedai's reaction to dangerous situations targeted at her, not to pass through wolds in which people are suffering or are tortured by shadowspawn, without giving a damn and just watch everything with a calm pose while creating a useless weave. As Moiraine's test was. Compared with what Nynaeve went through, especially after Egwene used all her weaknesses against her, Moiraine's test was no more than a joke.

Walking naked in front of three guys or watching an entire village filled with friends and persons you love being butchered in front of you...not even a contest.

If they were to give her a fair test, they should just imagine scenarios in which only Nynaeve was in danger, and I'm sure she would have handled everything they could throw at her.

 

 

Only a BA sister should be able to ace such a test. The idea of AS is that they should help people(servants of all and all that), and maintain calm in dangerous situations targeted at her, not maintaining a straight face while everywhere around you people are suffering.

[Kahsm]

Kaptain Kaos, Nyneave does have integrity, she cares more about people then a test. That's why there are so many problems with most AS, they care more about their institution than people. Nyneave's not the one who could've potentially killed her friend twice to advance her career, and Nyneave agreed to take the test, Egwene did not. We'll therefore never know the integrity she would have in the test.

 

Or she knew her friend could handle it because she has faith in her strength, and knew there is no way on earth Nynaeve would want Egwene to go easy on her.

 

 

There is going easy and going to far. And I think Egwene's actions in that particular case are more of the latter.

 

If you read New Spring, and Moiraine's test, you'll see that her worse enemy, Elaida, added the worse scenario for her to fail, an image of her father telling her that her mother loves her and she should go to help her. That was more than enough to unnerve, her, or so Elaida thought, and some AS considered that it was to far, and she shouldn't have done that.

 

On the other hand, we have Egwene creating very intricate scenarios in which Nynaeve has to watch children, all her friends, family, or loved ones butchered, tortured, eaten by Trollocs, and so on.

And, after the rest of the AS pick up on that, those scenarios are played again and again and again.

 

Since Egwene has no idea what a normal test looks like, and knowing that every AS there wants to see Nynaeve fail, she still played along and used those terrible scenarios.

 

I know that Egwene's desire to be the best at everything she does shouldn't surprise me anymore, but I thought she'll stop when that job implied creating terrifying scenarios to break your best friend. I was wrong. She really showed those AS that wanted Nyn to fail how it's done, and even gave them a few hints and inside information.

If they use the same scenarios as a template for all future tests, there won't be a new AS for centuries. Even an BA sister will have a hard time with some scenarios(darkhounds, etc).

 

Maybe Nyn can control TaR to an extend, but so can Egwene, so she could have blocked Nyn's ability to think straight. And she didn't knew enough about the rules of the test or the ter'angreal to be sure that Nyn will be able to beat it.

 

 

Anyway, I think the test was used to test the Aes Sedai's reaction to dangerous situations targeted at her, not to pass through wolds in which people are suffering or are tortured by shadowspawn, without giving a damn and just watch everything with a calm pose while creating a useless weave. As Moiraine's test was. Compared with what Nynaeve went through, especially after Egwene used all her weaknesses against her, Moiraine's test was no more than a joke.

Walking naked in front of three guys or watching an entire village filled with friends and persons you love being butchered in front of you...not even a contest.

If they were to give her a fair test, they should just imagine scenarios in which only Nynaeve was in danger, and I'm sure she would have handled everything they could throw at her.

 

 

Only a BA sister should be able to ace such a test. The idea of AS is that they should help people(servants of all and all that), and maintain calm in dangerous situations targeted at her, not maintaining a straight face while everywhere around you people are suffering.

 

Comparing Egwene's scenario to Moir's test is irrelevant. Compare it to the other's Nyn faced. Yes Egwene's was the hardest, but it was the last of a string of progressively harder ones. Even if Egwene had made it "normal" difficult, it would look like she went very easy relative to the others. So unfortunately for Nyn, they ALL went too far.

 

If you have a problem with the process, fine. But Egwene can't just change it mid test, Nyn would not want Egwene to endanger her position, and would certainly not want her to go easy as if she were some fragile flower.

[Xcorpyo001]

If she wanted to keep it fair, she should have just stayed out of it.

If the others didn't knew about Nynaeve's weaknesses, everything would have been a lot easier.

And she should have known the rules and limits of the testing, but she din't asked. Her lack of information on the matter and the fact she din't even took the test is a failure as an Amyrlin and friend.

 

Torturing your friend as hard as you can so you can save face and not seem to take any sides is plain stupid. And what you fail to notice is the fact that she chose a side.

She took a side. She crossed the line, just like all the other AS. Again, she should just stay out of the entire process. She just managed to make it a lot harder on Nynaeve.

 

What do you mean 'treat her like a flower'? They could have tried to scare her with anything directed at her.

Torturing everyone she loved in her face was wrong, and we know this from Moiraine's testing(which you seem to just brush off...but it was presented in New Spring for a reason), and the explanation of one AS(Saerin) present at that testing.

 

 

She collapsed alone on the cold floor, naked, shaking. In a flood, she remembered it all. Each and every horrible moment of the test. Each betrayal, each frustrating weave. The impotence, the screams of the children, the deaths of people she knew and loved. She wept against the floor, curling up.

Her entire body was afire with pain. Her shoulder, legs, arms and back still bled. She was burned to blisters in her body, and the greater part of her braid was gone. Her unraveled hair fell across her face as she tried to banish the memories of what she done

 

Treated like a flower. lol

............................

 

“Well,” Saerin said from nearby, “seems that she’ll live. Now, would someone please tell me what in the name of creation itself that was?” She sounded furious. “I’ve been a part of many a raising, even one where the woman didn’t survive. But I have never, in all of my days, seen a woman put through what this one just suffered.”

“She had to be tested properly,” Rubinde said.

“Properly?” Saerin demanded, livid.

Nynaeve didn’t have the strength to look at them. She lay, breathing in and out.

“Properly?” Saerin repeated. “That wasn’t proper. That was downright vengeful, Rubinde! Almost any one of those tests was beyond what I’ve seen demanded of other women. You should be ashamed. All of you. Light, look what you’ve done to the girl!

 

...............................

 

 

The women gathered together to speak softly, and Egwene walked—still serene-over to Nynaeve

 

The 'still serene' part gets me every time.

“I’ve been a part of many a raising, even one where the woman didn’t survive. But I have never, in all of my days, seen a woman put through what this one just suffered.

And this one. To say that they didn't do anything wrong is...no comment.

And at the end, nobody was punished for this 'transgression'. They tried to kill her. Less than that actually killed other Accepted.

 

 

If this is how her life will be as the friend of the Amyrlin, I think she should befriend Saerin and ask the Mother to treat her as they treated all the captured Forsaken so far.

[Himiko]

I agree with Aiel Blademaster.

 

This isn't a case of Egwene "not going easy on her friend". This is a case of Egwene "actively taking part in a testing that another sister, who has been part of many other in the past, and has no reason whatsoever to like Nynaeve or go easy on her, told everyone else involved that it went far beyond acceptable and that they should all be ashamed."

 

Had she wanted to remain impartial, she should have stayed out of the test- I can't imagine it would have hurt her public image, either. The Amyrlin staying completely out of the process and allowing her friend to be tested, properly, by the Hall. As it was, by partaking in the test as she did, she not only gave her implicit consent to torture Nynaeve, she showed the other Aes Sedai EXACTLY how to do their worst to her. If we are supposed to excuse her on the grounds that she hadn't been tested herself, so didn't know that she had crossed the line, along with the other sisters, then a) Why in the hell was she taking part at all? and b) Once Saerin made it perfectly clear that what had just happened was extremely not cool, why did she not condemn the sisters for their blatant bullying tactics? Why did she not look at least a little guilty or shocked when she realised how far past the post she had pushed her friend? Why did she not apologise to Nynaeve when the were talking privately, and explain that she only had what the other sisters were doing to go on?

 

She took part in the test when she didn't need to, and made things worse for Nynaeve as a result. She and the others involved went way past the point that another prominent and powerful AS had been chastised for before. She did not punish the sisters who took part in the bullying. As has been said, she did take a side. She took the side of the bullies to make herself look good, when she had every legal right not to, and she could quite easily have absented herself from the process, and the side taking, entirely. Whether you choose to forgive her for it or condemn her for it, or not care, is your choice, but I don't see how this was a good OR necessary decision, for her politics or her friends. If she thought that it was, then I sincerely hope that Saerin or someone has put her to rights in a scene that was left out of the book, because otherwise they won't be raising any more sisters for a while.

[Jemlin]

In Nyn's test, Egwene might have taken it a step far for the scenario she created. She seemed to realize this as she apologized to Nyneave afterwords. However, Egwene can not be held responsible for the other Aes Sedai's reasons. She might have pushed the envelope, but they took it above and beyond where she intended. These women were obviously jealous of Nyn's power, wilder standing, and other such and intended to make an example of her. We can't lay the entire dynamics of the situation on Eqwene's shoulders, OR assume this will be the future trend of tests.

[Himiko]

In Nyn's test, Egwene might have taken it a step far for the scenario she created. She seemed to realize this as she apologized to Nyneave afterwords. However, Egwene can not be held responsible for the other Aes Sedai's reasons. She might have pushed the envelope, but they took it above and beyond where she intended. These women were obviously jealous of Nyn's power, wilder standing, and other such and intended to make an example of her. We can't lay the entire dynamics of the situation on Eqwene's shoulders, OR assume this will be the future trend of tests.

 

 

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I quite agree that its foolish to lay the whole of the blame for Nynaeve's testing on Egwene's shoulders- after all, she was not the only one making the visions. Nor would I assign her blame equal to theirs for the testing- I think it was foolish of her to take part, and I think her partaking of what she knew, or at least suspected to be, a brutal test with just as much brutality does not reflect well on her, HOWEVER, her own reasons for doing so seem to have been political, if perhaps misguided, whereas with many of the others, it seems mostly to have been down to spite- presumably because Nynaeve, being a wilder and "not a proper AS" has made miraculous discoveries, surpassed all of them in power, and will stand above them when she is raised.

 

In an ideal situation, Egwene would have not taken part in the actual testing, even if she was present. In another ideal situation, she would have realised the test was brutal, made her own input more appropriate and reprimanded the AS afterwards. At the very least, having decided to take part, and that she wouldn't risk her position even remotely by being fair in the testing, she SHOULD have reprimanded the AS who took part, and had them apologise to Nynaeve (personally I prefer some "penance" as their option, but assuming she doesn't want to go the public humiliation route). And she didn't- the only one who reprimanded them was Saerin. I mean, OK, Saerin's awesome, but that doesn't mean Egwene shouldn't have to step up to the plate, too :P

 

IMO, this wasn't the worst thing Egwene's ever done, and excuses can be made- its in no way the same as when she tries to cover her arse by scaring Nynaeve and then is giggly about her power trip afterwards in TFoH- but I do think it was badly handled on her part. I doubt that every testing will be like this, and I in no way believe that Egwene INTENDS to make the practice in any way similar to this- she needs AS too badly for that- but I do wonder if her implicit consent to Nynaeve's treatment will mean that when it comes time for Elayne to be tested (or any Accepted that has gotten "above their place", or a wilder, or someone who has made more discoveries than full sisters, or anyone who is close to Egwene) then any AS feeling spiteful (using the example of Elayne because she and Nynaeve are in very similar situations re. the Aes Sedai) will do the same as they did to Nynaeve, on the basis that the Amyrlin never said anything against it.

[Entreri]

Strong willpower, among the Light side women, likely second only to Cadusane and Soriela.

 

Ability to take a lot of punishment. Not sure if any other AS (possibly beside Nyaneve) could have endured what she did and not be broken in the series. A definite asset in this series.

 

A great manipulator, a must to be the AS leader.

 

Cares for the White Tower above pretty much anything else. I suppose both a + and -.

 

A good butt kicker, nice to see the wretched Seanchan get spanked. Alas, Tuon did not get spanked...will have to leave that to Mat.

[Luckers]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have the book on me--but I thought Egwene had no direct part in Nynaeve's testing. She was there as a witness to the event only, and had no part of the weaving. That, I thought, was all done by the Sitters, and thus Egwene would not even have been able to see the tests.

[SuperFade]

No, Egwene did take a direct role. In the conversation they have afterwards, Nynaeve reasons out that only Egwene would have known that saving Lan would have been the most difficult test for her. Whereupon Egwene admits that was her doing, as well as the scenario with the Two Rivers being under attack and others besides.

[Himiko]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have the book on me--but I thought Egwene had no direct part in Nynaeve's testing. She was there as a witness to the event only, and had no part of the weaving. That, I thought, was all done by the Sitters, and thus Egwene would not even have been able to see the tests.

 

As SuperFade says, Egwene takes part in the testing, and admits to Nynaeve that the Two Rivers and Lan were ones she added- she also knew what the other AS scenarios were, as she mentions that they put more distressed children into their tests when they saw it upset Nynaeve. She doesn't, however, have a vote in deciding whether Nynaeve gets to keep the shawl or not.

[Kahsm]

In Nyn's test, Egwene might have taken it a step far for the scenario she created. She seemed to realize this as she apologized to Nyneave afterwords. However, Egwene can not be held responsible for the other Aes Sedai's reasons. She might have pushed the envelope, but they took it above and beyond where she intended. These women were obviously jealous of Nyn's power, wilder standing, and other such and intended to make an example of her. We can't lay the entire dynamics of the situation on Eqwene's shoulders, OR assume this will be the future trend of tests.

 

 

Oh, no, don't get me wrong, I quite agree that its foolish to lay the whole of the blame for Nynaeve's testing on Egwene's shoulders- after all, she was not the only one making the visions. Nor would I assign her blame equal to theirs for the testing- I think it was foolish of her to take part, and I think her partaking of what she knew, or at least suspected to be, a brutal test with just as much brutality does not reflect well on her, HOWEVER, her own reasons for doing so seem to have been political, if perhaps misguided, whereas with many of the others, it seems mostly to have been down to spite- presumably because Nynaeve, being a wilder and "not a proper AS" has made miraculous discoveries, surpassed all of them in power, and will stand above them when she is raised.

 

In an ideal situation, Egwene would have not taken part in the actual testing, even if she was present. In another ideal situation, she would have realised the test was brutal, made her own input more appropriate and reprimanded the AS afterwards. At the very least, having decided to take part, and that she wouldn't risk her position even remotely by being fair in the testing, she SHOULD have reprimanded the AS who took part, and had them apologise to Nynaeve (personally I prefer some "penance" as their option, but assuming she doesn't want to go the public humiliation route). And she didn't- the only one who reprimanded them was Saerin. I mean, OK, Saerin's awesome, but that doesn't mean Egwene shouldn't have to step up to the plate, too :P

 

IMO, this wasn't the worst thing Egwene's ever done, and excuses can be made- its in no way the same as when she tries to cover her arse by scaring Nynaeve and then is giggly about her power trip afterwards in TFoH- but I do think it was badly handled on her part. I doubt that every testing will be like this, and I in no way believe that Egwene INTENDS to make the practice in any way similar to this- she needs AS too badly for that- but I do wonder if her implicit consent to Nynaeve's treatment will mean that when it comes time for Elayne to be tested (or any Accepted that has gotten "above their place", or a wilder, or someone who has made more discoveries than full sisters, or anyone who is close to Egwene) then any AS feeling spiteful (using the example of Elayne because she and Nynaeve are in very similar situations re. the Aes Sedai) will do the same as they did to Nynaeve, on the basis that the Amyrlin never said anything against it.

 

Afaik Egwene cannot see into the future and cannot decide not to take part in something she doesn't know will get so out of control. And once started she's not going to screw Nyn by going easy and possibly hurting Nyn with rumors of "She only got the shawl because the amyrlin went easy on her" And I think you're assuming she was going beyond what she thought Nyn could handle.

 

Please give me the quote where Nynaeve thinks Egwene was wrong, or where she tells Egwene she's a bad friend, or is angry at her.

[Turin Turambar]

Correct me if I'm wrong, I do not have the book on me--but I thought Egwene had no direct part in Nynaeve's testing. She was there as a witness to the event only, and had no part of the weaving. That, I thought, was all done by the Sitters, and thus Egwene would not even have been able to see the tests.

Egwene herself admited to making the two rivers scene and the final scene with Lan. She also stated that she observed that once the others noticed children tugged at Nyn they kept putting more of those things.