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Egwene/the Aes Sedai


Luckers
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I think a lot of you are missing the point...

 

_ALL_ tests are in effect... pointless. When I did a test at school there was no greater good accomplished by it, it was simply to demonstrate that I could apply what I had learned if the need arose.

 

And you might then say "well you should never have to ignore people in trouble to weave pointless weaves." While that is likely true, the pointless weaves represent a purpose, and they want Aes Sedai to be able to focus on their purpose despite distractions. And Nynaeve's distraction tends to be people (usually ones she knows) that need help. That is not to say everyone would be tested on the same things. I"m sure many greens simply go through various tests of men wanting them to stay while they get busy or some such.

 

So if you figure that the complex weaves simply test channeling ability as well as taking the place of some 'greater good' purpose, then maybe she does need to be able to ignore others who need help. You need to learn to prioritize.

 

And just to nip something in the bud I see being a problem. That "greater good" is not necessarily dictated or prescribed by the tower, so don't get all "The tower doesn't always know best!" on me. They want women who can be steadfast and focused on _A_ task, by the time of the testing no specific task is given or they'd just test for that. The accepted test already tested loyalty.

Edited by Kael Pyralis
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I think a lot of you are missing the point...

 

_ALL_ tests are in effect... pointless. When I did a test at school there was no greater good accomplished by it, it was simply to demonstrate that I could apply what I had learned if the need arose.

 

And you might then say "well you should never have to ignore people in trouble to weave pointless weaves." While that is likely true, the pointless weaves represent a purpose, and they want Aes Sedai to be able to focus on their purpose despite distractions. And Nynaeve's distraction tends to be people (usually ones she knows) that need help. That is not to say everyone would be tested on the same things. I"m sure many greens simply go through various tests of men wanting them to stay while they get busy or some such.

 

So if you figure that the complex weaves simply test channeling ability as well as taking the place of some 'greater good' purpose, then maybe she does need to be able to ignore others who need help. You need to learn to prioritize.

 

And just to nip something in the bud I see being a problem. That "greater good" is not necessarily dictated or prescribed by the tower, so don't get all "The tower doesn't always know best!" on me. They want women who can be steadfast and focused on _A_ task, by the time of the testing no specific task is given or they'd just test for that. The accepted test already tested loyalty.

 

 

Wow... You are applying some unbelievable mental gymnastics here... Just wow!

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I think we have to remember that these are women with pretty damn formidable levels of power.

Would it not be irresponsible to allow them to waltz about the land, working for an organization which has the goal of administrating the world if they had not proven that they will not crack under extreme pressure. The kind of pressure they are more than likely to have to confront if they are to be a valuable and effective asset. Remember this is a test to join an elite organization. They know the risks and can leave any time.

 

I would normally say "Yes, such a test of some form is needed"...if we didn't have the Kin existing in such a high number and doing so well. In the Kin, we have a large group of women who were not "fit" to take the tests (they failed, or chickened out, etc), yet they have been a part of an organization for hundreds of years. They have successfully kept the women associated from causing trouble through their own disciplinary system (and yes, through fear of Aes Sedai reprimand). They are highly respected by the population at large, even though that population has no inkling of their potential to channel.

 

So, I think there is a way. Discipline is necessary and is clear in both Aes Sedai and the Kin. However, brutal testing and unnecessary death of candidates might not be so.

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I think a lot of you are missing the point...

 

_ALL_ tests are in effect... pointless. When I did a test at school there was no greater good accomplished by it, it was simply to demonstrate that I could apply what I had learned if the need arose.

 

And you might then say "well you should never have to ignore people in trouble to weave pointless weaves." While that is likely true, the pointless weaves represent a purpose, and they want Aes Sedai to be able to focus on their purpose despite distractions. And Nynaeve's distraction tends to be people (usually ones she knows) that need help. That is not to say everyone would be tested on the same things. I"m sure many greens simply go through various tests of men wanting them to stay while they get busy or some such.

 

So if you figure that the complex weaves simply test channeling ability as well as taking the place of some 'greater good' purpose, then maybe she does need to be able to ignore others who need help. You need to learn to prioritize.

 

And just to nip something in the bud I see being a problem. That "greater good" is not necessarily dictated or prescribed by the tower, so don't get all "The tower doesn't always know best!" on me. They want women who can be steadfast and focused on _A_ task, by the time of the testing no specific task is given or they'd just test for that. The accepted test already tested loyalty.

 

 

I don't think all test are pointless, especially those for AS, but they changed the purpose of the initial tests over time.

For example, lets take your test at school, or any other. Let's say there is a competition for becoming CEO of a multinational conglomerate. If you pass that test, you can help/harm a lot of people, control presidents, change the fate of the world, etc.

A guy next to you asking for an extra pen may be a distraction, a fire alarm can be a distraction, another guy telling you that if you do not fail he will beat the crap out of you after the test can be another distraction, but if you really want the job, you can focus on the test and nothing more.

Now, if someone brings your entire family in the middle of the room, and they start torture, kill, eat all of them(and you have the power to help them, but you will fail if you try to help them), I think this is beyond distraction. But, if you want the job, you should be able to keep going even during this.

The AS are under some sort of Compulsion and they don't know everything is not real, or at least they can't be sure it isn't.

 

 

Keep in mind that in normal testing condition, the future AS don't know that everything around them is not real.

 

During the Accepted test, they are dropped in a situation that may be good or bad for the test subject, and after a while, they just leave everything behind and jump through a strange portal that may lead to anywhere, even SG, because a voice in their head tells them to do it, and they somehow know it is important.

Thank God Rand chose not to listen to the voice in his head, or else the DO would have escaped to find everything already destroyed.

 

The final AS test.

I think the goal was to weave all the 100 thingies in succession, while under pressure(close to what Moiraine got, bar the last one).

Now, the main goal of the test is to keep a poker face and a steady pace, doing some pointless weaves while all around you people are dying in some horrible ways. A small difference, or so it seemed, but it did its job and managed to transform the WT in a useless gathering of female channelers that did more bad than good in the last 3000 years.

 

But since now all the AS are just using loads and loads of money that could keep a small country fed for years to just keep the illusion of wealth and power, are training from the first day on ways to break the oaths, achieving fabled status as distorting the truth without actually lying(I'm shocked they don't have a test for this), while the Ajahs are no longer doing the job they were supposed to do, these crappy tests don't come as a surprise.

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I think it's clear that the organization of the Aes Sedai is far from ideal, in many respects, the tests being only one of them. And intuitively, I would say that any test that risks killing the person doing it is not a good idea and should not be used. But put this in the context of Randland. We actually see several tests/rites of passage that involve a real danger of death. Aspiring clan chiefs who go to Rhuidean don't always come back. Same for Wise Ones. Lots of Asha'man die in training (not that it's right or anything, but that's the way it is). One of the only two ways to become a blademaster is to kill one, which involves a great risk of getting killed instead. Now I'm not saying that the Aes Sedai testing methods are perfect, far from it, but they're hardly the only ones, so in all fairness, you can't use that as an argument to say that their organization is inferior, at least in that respect. In other matters, I think the Aiel have a much better way of doing things, but testing-wise, not necessarily.

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As I've said before, I can see both positive and negative aspects to the test. I think the test, in theory (being able to channel weaves of reasonable complexity under pressure) is a good idea- the complexity and variety of the weaves being there to test the ability of the person doing the weaving, and the other aspects of the test there to make sure she won't go to pieces when faced with something bad.

 

HOWEVER, we've seen two AS tests in any detail, (Nynaeve and Moiraine) and in both tests, the women performing the tests have actively tried to make them fail- not in the "I don't want you to have it easy" way, but in the "I don't want you to pass this" way. I mean, in Moiraine's case, it was actually known that she and Elaida had crossed paths before the test, and yet she was still allowed to take part? These are tests that have been, not just harsh, but have actually been labelled as inappropriate by the other AS performing the tests. The Aiel sometimes die in their rituals, true, but theirs aren't powered by someone with a vendetta against them.

 

I realise that the AS ter'angreal being people-powered means that this is always a risk, but they obviously have guidelines as to how far AS should go during a testing (however unofficial or unacknowledged they may be), or Saerin wouldn't have reacted as she did to Nynaeve's test. If someone uses the test as an excuse to inflict punishment on an Accepted/ AS, or is taken too far, those sisters should be punished, and not allowed to take part in another testing- if not forever, then for several decades at least. Testing is acceptable, risks are acceptable, bullying should not be, and we've seen no real punishment being inflicted on those who misuse this incredible, potentially fatal power, over another person. And given that these two are the only tests we've seen, what are the chances that these are the only times this has ever happened. Or what about the reverse? An AS taking it easy on an Accepted that they like, and want in their Ajah?

 

If we're talking about the test in general, and going by most of Moiraine's test and the early part of Nynaeve's, where the distractions are mainly embarassment, or physical threats to the person in question, then yes, that makes sense. A person will need to keep her head and channel when she is in danger, or if she's uncomfortable. The instructions are there to remind her where to go and what to do when she gets there, presumably to stop people just wandering off and getting lost forever inside the ter'angreal. But a lot of the obstacles in Nynaeve's test- helping defend people against dark creatures, healing the sick, etc- seem to be going directly against what the WT supposedly stands for (they are seen as one of the primary forces against the DO and his forces in Randland. Their name means Servants of All. They have a whole Ajah dedicated to healing, another to battle, etc.) because of a nonsensical command in her head. As someone else has said- had Rand just listened to some of the voices in his head, we'd be facing some severe devastation. Of course, sometimes Nynaeve (or whoever) would have to put aside healing or helping someone to focus on the "greater good", but at least she'd have some knowledge of why she had to, not just some thought planted in her head that says she should go over there and make a weave with no use.

 

In conclusion: AS tests in general- have their faults (mostly the potential for human manipulation), but do seem to have a purpose. Nynaeve, and apparently Moiraine's test- Inappropriate behaviour by the AS performing the test, called on it both times by other AS. Need to have strict punishments in place for those AS who misuse the tests.

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^ Totally agree with that.

 

Now about Egwene's involvement in Nynaeve's test, I really don't understand why it happened. I mean, I get why she thought she should do it, but it doesn't seem to make sense. First, since when does the Amyrlin waste her time testing Accepted? Doesn't she have more important things to do? It seems odd to me that that would be part of her duties. Second, how can they assume she will know what to do in the test? She never took it herself, so she doesn't know what it's supposed to be like. Third, the obvious conflict of interest everybody pointed out (and she is aware of it herself). Everybody will obviously wonder whether she went easy on Nynaeve because she's her friend. Best way to avoid this: stay out of it. All in all, it seems like a very poor choice.

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^ Totally agree with that.

 

Now about Egwene's involvement in Nynaeve's test, I really don't understand why it happened. I mean, I get why she thought she should do it, but it doesn't seem to make sense. First, since when does the Amyrlin waste her time testing Accepted? Doesn't she have more important things to do? It seems odd to me that that would be part of her duties. Second, how can they assume she will know what to do in the test? She never took it herself, so she doesn't know what it's supposed to be like. Third, the obvious conflict of interest everybody pointed out (and she is aware of it herself). Everybody will obviously wonder whether she went easy on Nynaeve because she's her friend. Best way to avoid this: stay out of it. All in all, it seems like a very poor choice.

 

Yeah, if she wanted to avoid accusations of favouratism she could have simply stayed away. If she wanted to demonstrate her hardassedness to the Sitters however, the Testing afforded her an ideal opportunity...

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As I've said before, I can see both positive and negative aspects to the test. I think the test, in theory (being able to channel weaves of reasonable complexity under pressure) is a good idea- the complexity and variety of the weaves being there to test the ability of the person doing the weaving, and the other aspects of the test there to make sure she won't go to pieces when faced with something bad.

 

HOWEVER, we've seen two AS tests in any detail, (Nynaeve and Moiraine) and in both tests, the women performing the tests have actively tried to make them fail- not in the "I don't want you to have it easy" way, but in the "I don't want you to pass this" way. I mean, in Moiraine's case, it was actually known that she and Elaida had crossed paths before the test, and yet she was still allowed to take part? These are tests that have been, not just harsh, but have actually been labelled as inappropriate by the other AS performing the tests. The Aiel sometimes die in their rituals, true, but theirs aren't powered by someone with a vendetta against them.

 

I realise that the AS ter'angreal being people-powered means that this is always a risk, but they obviously have guidelines as to how far AS should go during a testing (however unofficial or unacknowledged they may be), or Saerin wouldn't have reacted as she did to Nynaeve's test. If someone uses the test as an excuse to inflict punishment on an Accepted/ AS, or is taken too far, those sisters should be punished, and not allowed to take part in another testing- if not forever, then for several decades at least. Testing is acceptable, risks are acceptable, bullying should not be, and we've seen no real punishment being inflicted on those who misuse this incredible, potentially fatal power, over another person. And given that these two are the only tests we've seen, what are the chances that these are the only times this has ever happened. Or what about the reverse? An AS taking it easy on an Accepted that they like, and want in their Ajah?

 

If we're talking about the test in general, and going by most of Moiraine's test and the early part of Nynaeve's, where the distractions are mainly embarassment, or physical threats to the person in question, then yes, that makes sense. A person will need to keep her head and channel when she is in danger, or if she's uncomfortable. The instructions are there to remind her where to go and what to do when she gets there, presumably to stop people just wandering off and getting lost forever inside the ter'angreal. But a lot of the obstacles in Nynaeve's test- helping defend people against dark creatures, healing the sick, etc- seem to be going directly against what the WT supposedly stands for (they are seen as one of the primary forces against the DO and his forces in Randland. Their name means Servants of All. They have a whole Ajah dedicated to healing, another to battle, etc.) because of a nonsensical command in her head. As someone else has said- had Rand just listened to some of the voices in his head, we'd be facing some severe devastation. Of course, sometimes Nynaeve (or whoever) would have to put aside healing or helping someone to focus on the "greater good", but at least she'd have some knowledge of why she had to, not just some thought planted in her head that says she should go over there and make a weave with no use.

 

In conclusion: AS tests in general- have their faults (mostly the potential for human manipulation), but do seem to have a purpose. Nynaeve, and apparently Moiraine's test- Inappropriate behaviour by the AS performing the test, called on it both times by other AS. Need to have strict punishments in place for those AS who misuse the tests.

 

 

I totally agree with this.

It's just what I wanted to say, but a lot better and without the idiotic examples I usually use.

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I think a lot of you are missing the point...

 

_ALL_ tests are in effect... pointless. When I did a test at school there was no greater good accomplished by it, it was simply to demonstrate that I could apply what I had learned if the need arose.

 

And you might then say "well you should never have to ignore people in trouble to weave pointless weaves." While that is likely true, the pointless weaves represent a purpose, and they want Aes Sedai to be able to focus on their purpose despite distractions. And Nynaeve's distraction tends to be people (usually ones she knows) that need help. That is not to say everyone would be tested on the same things. I"m sure many greens simply go through various tests of men wanting them to stay while they get busy or some such.

 

So if you figure that the complex weaves simply test channeling ability as well as taking the place of some 'greater good' purpose, then maybe she does need to be able to ignore others who need help. You need to learn to prioritize.

 

And just to nip something in the bud I see being a problem. That "greater good" is not necessarily dictated or prescribed by the tower, so don't get all "The tower doesn't always know best!" on me. They want women who can be steadfast and focused on _A_ task, by the time of the testing no specific task is given or they'd just test for that. The accepted test already tested loyalty.

 

 

Wow... You are applying some unbelievable mental gymnastics here... Just wow!

 

If it's too complicated I can give you an example.

 

On a math test you might ask me what 563245 x 41552 is. The odds of that ever being relevant in a practical situation is next to zero. But they want to know I know how to do it and can do it in a timely manner. That is the "pointless" weaves.

 

Add to that a shit-storm you need to ignore and do it in and prove you can be cool, calm, and single-mindedly focused.

 

I do agree they could take more measures to remove bias, but we have only seen 2 special cases and there have been a lot of Aes Sedai raised over the past 2000ish years, so I doubt it's usually a big issue.

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Egwene is extremely self-righteous, which grates on me, but even that is not my biggest problem with her. Actually, my problem is not one with her character, but the writing involved in her chapters. You never get the feeling she is intelligent or skilled when things go her way, because almost every time her opponents magically turn into retards when ever she is nearby in order to make her seem smart by comparison. Her so called brilliant manipulations could be seen from a mile off by anyone who actually bothered to think. These Aes Sedai are supposed to be masters of intrigue with 100s of years of experience in some cases, and they get played like children by a 20 year old girl? Please.

 

Im tired of things being handed to her on a silver platter, she is no ta'veren, so she doesn't even have that excuse. Actually, even the ta'veren come across as believable in their various struggles. Egwene does not.

 

Oh, while im at it. Egwene is certainly not a person I would ever want to meet. Besides her naturally arrogant manner(She always talks about taking Rand down a peg when he was being arrogant, but who does the same for her?), she is horrid to her supposed friends. I am reminded of the time she frightened Ny'neave to hide her own trespasses from the WO, and the fact that she was especially cruel to her during her testing, in order to secure her own position and assure the rest she wasn't playing favorites. She was downright vicious about it.

 

Somewhere along the line she has gotten it into her head that she knows whats best about everything. When others support Rand, she blames it on his ta'veren nature, which made me itch to slap her. Has she forgotten what a ta'veren is? The pattern bends to help them with whatever task is required of them. Is she suggesting that she knows better than the damn universe? She should get with the program.

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I do agree they could take more measures to remove bias, but we have only seen 2 special cases and there have been a lot of Aes Sedai raised over the past 2000ish years, so I doubt it's usually a big issue.

 

True, we've only seen two cases of this, but then, these are the only 2 AS tests we've seen in the entire series, and both of them have been affected by someone with a grudge participating in the test. I realise the circumstances behind Nynaeve's raising were such that quite a few sisters were annoyed, and felt she didn't have the right to the shawl, so it might have been harder to weed them out, but this wasn't the case with Moiraine- she was raised through the proper channels, and a sister who was known to have reason to dislike her participated in the test. I can't imagine this was the only case of such a thing happening, or of someone going easy on a candidate that they wanted for their Ajah. Bear in mind, its generally considered "not done" to talk about what happens within someone's test, so whilst we have no evidence of this happening more than twice, beyond probability, if the sisters involved never discussed it, how would we know unless we were shown the test?

 

And if this was a rare occurence, all the more reason to come down like a ton of bricks on the sisters in that test- if its that rare, they should have known how out of line they were being, and have even less excuse for what they did.

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And if this was a rare occurence, all the more reason to come down like a ton of bricks on the sisters in that test- if its that rare, they should have known how out of line they were being, and have even less excuse for what they did.

 

Wasn't it pretty harshly commented on both times by AS as if it was outside of the norm?

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And if this was a rare occurence, all the more reason to come down like a ton of bricks on the sisters in that test- if its that rare, they should have known how out of line they were being, and have even less excuse for what they did.

 

Wasn't it pretty harshly commented on both times by AS as if it was outside of the norm?

 

I'm sure they did know, but it's not about being harsh test-masters. They didn't want the person to pass at all, they were trying to make it impossible but maintain SOME sort of deniability that it was "just a test".

 

Most of the time I doubt it's so combative. Usually it's in their best interest to let people pass given the slumping AS numbers. I would guess there is much more of a "too easy" bias than there is a too hard one. Particularly if you think they'll join your Ajah, and stuff like that.

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And if this was a rare occurence, all the more reason to come down like a ton of bricks on the sisters in that test- if its that rare, they should have known how out of line they were being, and have even less excuse for what they did.

 

Wasn't it pretty harshly commented on both times by AS as if it was outside of the norm?

 

Yes, it was- though, as I said, since its not really "the done thing" to discuss an AS test after its ended, it could be that other sisters had exercised bias before and it just wasn't realised how widespread it was. Particularly if it wasn't as serious as in these two cases.

 

And harsh commenting isn't really a deterrent. I don't have NS to hand, alas, so I can't comment on how Elaida was treated afterwards, beyond knowing that words were said, but certainly in Nynaeve's case, all that happened was Saerin got angry with the others because of their behaviour. None of them were assigned punishments that we saw, they didn't even get reprimanded by the Amyrlin Seat or made to apologise to Nynaeve. None of them seemed especially ashamed or reprimanded by this. That's the problem- if all the deterrent is that another AS (not necessarily one in a position of authority) is going to have a bit of a go at them, then its not surprising if this is more widespread than those isolated cases. If you've potentially got power over someone's life and death, and you've definitely got power over someone being raised to full sister or put out of the tower, then there needs to be an official sanction, or list of sanctions, that get slapped on any sister trying to use the test to further some agenda.

 

@Kael- Yeah, I imagine there's probably a little more bias-in-favour, due to the reasons you've named.

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I was reading this and thought of Inglourious Basterds.

German Col. "you'll be shot for this!"

Aldo Raines, "Nah, I don't think so. More like chewed out. I've been chewed out before."

 

You would think some sort of penance would be in order. they talk about it for nearly everything else.

 

 

The thing is, Egwene, aka the Amyrlin, participated in this as well and actually raised the bar, so to speak.

So she was unable to blame/punish the others, because she would have to punish herself as well. It would have been funny to see the Amyrlin hoeing the vegetable garden or being strapped...again.

By participating in the testing she gave the others the perfect excuse to go all out, because they knew she will not punish them, or in case Nyn actually died, the punishment would have been small, or they would have covered the whole affair, because Egwene couldn't order herself stilled for murdering an Accepted.

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Egwene is extremely self-righteous, which grates on me, but even that is not my biggest problem with her. Actually, my problem is not one with her character, but the writing involved in her chapters. You never get the feeling she is intelligent or skilled when things go her way, because almost every time her opponents magically turn into retards when ever she is nearby in order to make her seem smart by comparison. Her so called brilliant manipulations could be seen from a mile off by anyone who actually bothered to think. These Aes Sedai are supposed to be masters of intrigue with 100s of years of experience in some cases, and they get played like children by a 20 year old girl? Please.

 

Im tired of things being handed to her on a silver platter, she is no ta'veren, so she doesn't even have that excuse. Actually, even the ta'veren come across as believable in their various struggles. Egwene does not.

 

Oh, while im at it. Egwene is certainly not a person I would ever want to meet. Besides her naturally arrogant manner(She always talks about taking Rand down a peg when he was being arrogant, but who does the same for her?), she is horrid to her supposed friends. I am reminded of the time she frightened Ny'neave to hide her own trespasses from the WO, and the fact that she was especially cruel to her during her testing, in order to secure her own position and assure the rest she wasn't playing favorites. She was downright vicious about it.

 

Somewhere along the line she has gotten it into her head that she knows whats best about everything. When others support Rand, she blames it on his ta'veren nature, which made me itch to slap her. Has she forgotten what a ta'veren is? The pattern bends to help them with whatever task is required of them. Is she suggesting that she knows better than the damn universe? She should get with the program.

 

1) I don't think it's because of her extraordinary intelligence that the AS get played by her but because they assume that she's not a key player. She has some major tools at her fingertips that no AS has had for almost 500 years (Dreaming, Traveling, making cuendillar etc, training from Wise Ones). They also underestimate Siuan (her strongest ally) as though being stilled affected her political skill and knowledge. If anything, Egwene and Siuan in Salidar, the WT split begins the questioning of whether AS are really still those masters of intrigue that the smallfolk and nobles think of them as. Instead we see Romana and Lelaine practically bumbling, a delusional Elaida grasping at power she thinks she's entitled to,... Egwene's success just draws attention to the huge shortcomings of what the AS are now compared to what they used to be.

 

2) Yes, what she did to Nynaeve and the reason behind it were not that great. But given that she did it so they wouldn't stop teaching her, and then eventually told them and got switched to death, naked, by every Wise One... it kind of balances out. Whatever crap she dishes out, she paid back in all the physical torture and humiliation she endures from the Wise Ones and Silviana/Elaida/random Reds. She basically made a study out of turning humility into a strength.

 

3) I think letting someone (who she has grown up with and kinda thinks of as a brother) do whatever he wants because he's ta'veren is not supposed to be in the Amyrlin Seat's nature. And her frustration that people do that is understandable given that she (and Tuon) have both fought to say no to him. Maybe they're not supposed to say no but I think it says a lot about their strength that they can.

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2) Yes, what she did to Nynaeve and the reason behind it were not that great. But given tht she did it so they wouldn't stop teaching her, and then eventually told them and got switched to death, naked, by every Wise One... it kind of balances out. Whatever crap she dishes out, she paid back in all the physical torture and humiliation she endures from the Wise Ones and Silviana/Elaida/random Reds. She basically made a study out of turning humility into a strength.

 

Ah good. So she's apologized to Nynaeve for what she did to her, and admitted she was wrong? Because karmic rewards are great and all, but she still hasn't said anything to the person she actually wronged so far as I can recall.

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2) Yes, what she did to Nynaeve and the reason behind it were not that great. But given tht she did it so they wouldn't stop teaching her, and then eventually told them and got switched to death, naked, by every Wise One... it kind of balances out. Whatever crap she dishes out, she paid back in all the physical torture and humiliation she endures from the Wise Ones and Silviana/Elaida/random Reds. She basically made a study out of turning humility into a strength.

 

Ah good. So she's apologized to Nynaeve for what she did to her, and admitted she was wrong? Because karmic rewards are great and all, but she still hasn't said anything to the person she actually wronged so far as I can recall.

 

 

I think she did that during Nynaeve's test for the shawl. Oh, wait, she didn't.

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Guest PiotrekS

Egwene is extremely self-righteous, which grates on me, but even that is not my biggest problem with her. Actually, my problem is not one with her character, but the writing involved in her chapters. You never get the feeling she is intelligent or skilled when things go her way, because almost every time her opponents magically turn into retards when ever she is nearby in order to make her seem smart by comparison. Her so called brilliant manipulations could be seen from a mile off by anyone who actually bothered to think. These Aes Sedai are supposed to be masters of intrigue with 100s of years of experience in some cases, and they get played like children by a 20 year old girl? Please.

 

Im tired of things being handed to her on a silver platter, she is no ta'veren, so she doesn't even have that excuse. Actually, even the ta'veren come across as believable in their various struggles. Egwene does not.

 

Oh, while im at it. Egwene is certainly not a person I would ever want to meet. Besides her naturally arrogant manner(She always talks about taking Rand down a peg when he was being arrogant, but who does the same for her?), she is horrid to her supposed friends. I am reminded of the time she frightened Ny'neave to hide her own trespasses from the WO, and the fact that she was especially cruel to her during her testing, in order to secure her own position and assure the rest she wasn't playing favorites. She was downright vicious about it.

 

Somewhere along the line she has gotten it into her head that she knows whats best about everything. When others support Rand, she blames it on his ta'veren nature, which made me itch to slap her. Has she forgotten what a ta'veren is? The pattern bends to help them with whatever task is required of them. Is she suggesting that she knows better than the damn universe? She should get with the program.

 

That pretty much sums up what I think about Egwene. The writing is the main problem, second - Egwene's extremely self-righteous and pompous attitude. Even when she says or does somethin right, the manner of it makes me cringe.

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Egwene is extremely self-righteous, which grates on me, but even that is not my biggest problem with her. Actually, my problem is not one with her character, but the writing involved in her chapters. You never get the feeling she is intelligent or skilled when things go her way, because almost every time her opponents magically turn into retards when ever she is nearby in order to make her seem smart by comparison. Her so called brilliant manipulations could be seen from a mile off by anyone who actually bothered to think. These Aes Sedai are supposed to be masters of intrigue with 100s of years of experience in some cases, and they get played like children by a 20 year old girl? Please.

 

Im tired of things being handed to her on a silver platter, she is no ta'veren, so she doesn't even have that excuse. Actually, even the ta'veren come across as believable in their various struggles. Egwene does not.

 

Oh, while im at it. Egwene is certainly not a person I would ever want to meet. Besides her naturally arrogant manner(She always talks about taking Rand down a peg when he was being arrogant, but who does the same for her?), she is horrid to her supposed friends. I am reminded of the time she frightened Ny'neave to hide her own trespasses from the WO, and the fact that she was especially cruel to her during her testing, in order to secure her own position and assure the rest she wasn't playing favorites. She was downright vicious about it.

 

Somewhere along the line she has gotten it into her head that she knows whats best about everything. When others support Rand, she blames it on his ta'veren nature, which made me itch to slap her. Has she forgotten what a ta'veren is? The pattern bends to help them with whatever task is required of them. Is she suggesting that she knows better than the damn universe? She should get with the program.

 

That pretty much sums up what I think about Egwene. The writing is the main problem, second - Egwene's extremely self-righteous and pompous attitude. Even when she says or does somethin right, the manner of it makes me cringe.

 

Frightens Nyn to hide her tresspass in TAR? WHAT THE ****?!

 

You need to reread that. She frightened Nyn to show her that TAR was dangerous because Nyn was being stupid and ignoring the wise one's warnings. And that's something Nynaeve does consistantly, is ignore people who know better just because she can't admit to herself anyone could possibly teach her anything. One of the awesome things about Egwene is that she worships and respects the people she recognizes have something to teach her.

 

Now, after that point, Egwene got into her young-adult mode of treating Nynaeve as Nynaeve had treated her for YEARS before hand. She realized how to 'handle' her friend so that Nyneave wouldn't 'handle' her. And I think it's ridiculous that people will trash Egwene for that when Nyneave does it to _everyone_. Nynaeve even says to herself she needs to regain the "upper hand" with Egwene. So don't go trashing Egwene for how she treats Nyneave when Nyneave treats EVERYONE that way and becomes depressed when Egwene beats her at her own game.

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I must've missed the moment when Nynaeve physically abused Egwene to hide her own broken promises... :rolleyes:

 

You need to reread that. She frightened Nyn to show her that TAR was dangerous because Nyn was being stupid and ignoring the wise one's warnings.

No, she did not. It's pretty clear in the text why Egwene did it: "She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would learn that she certainly did not have the Wise Ones’ permission to jaunt about in the World of Dreams alone, so sure that the flush of embarrassment had given her away, that all she could think of was keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth. " The whole lecture on the dangers of TAR and the subsequent summoning of the two brutes to attack Nynaeve happened right after Nynaeve asked "“So the Wise Ones have finally decided to let you come and go as you please?".

Edited by David Selig
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I must've missed the moment when Nynaeve physically abused Egwene to hide her own broken promises... :rolleyes:

 

You need to reread that. She frightened Nyn to show her that TAR was dangerous because Nyn was being stupid and ignoring the wise one's warnings.

No, she did not. It's pretty clear in the text why Egwene did it: "She had been so afraid that Nynaeve would learn that she certainly did not have the Wise Ones’ permission to jaunt about in the World of Dreams alone, so sure that the flush of embarrassment had given her away, that all she could think of was keeping Nynaeve from speaking, keeping her from winkling out the truth. " The whole lecture on the dangers of TAR and the subsequent summoning of the two brutes to attack Nynaeve happened right after Nynaeve asked "“So the Wise Ones have finally decided to let you come and go as you please?".

 

 

 

Yep, David is right.

And on later meetings in TaR she's very happy Nyn didn't recovered completely and she can still boss her around(edit: and is thinking what to do to keep it that way).

As to at least an apology, never going to happen. She was already in Amyrlin/AS mode even back there. She probably had a vision and wanted to ease Nynaeve's transition into subservience.

Edited by Aiel Blademaster
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