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Egwene/the Aes Sedai


Luckers
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Egwene isn't searching for an alternate solution to sealing the bore, because she doesn't have any problem with the way Rand intends to do it, with the exception of the breaking of the seals. She's not aware that Rand doesn't really have a complete idea of how to seal the bore, at least not without tainting saidin. She doesn't doubt his ability to seal the bore or his knowlegde of how to do so, only the neccesity of breaking the seals. I believe she tells Elayne and Nyneave that "surely he should be able to seal the bore without breaking the seals" (I have no idea why she is so sure of this by the way, but that's beside the point), so it's obvious she doesn't doubt that he can do it. There's no need to search for an alternate way of sealing the bore, if she doesn't doubt Rand's way (minus the breaking of the seals, which is the reason for the whole conflict).

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Feel free to enlighten me if you think I have it wrong. Though I've argued with you enough to know this is when you start insisting you've given all the evidence I need despite the fact all your "evidence" is based on assumed motivations that there's no actual evidence exist. You can't just assume she manipulative and power-hungry because you hate her, and use that as a proof she's manipulative and power-hungry to justify your hate, that is circular.

She's manipulative because she manipulates people and no, them agreeing to it doesn't mean she doesn't do it.For example if someone was rude to people's faces and denied it because at the bottom line they agree with him,it wouldn't change the fact that he was rude .

 

She's power-hungry because she jumps at every opportunity to acquire power.There were other ways to stop/unite the sisters instead of forcing them to swear to her,not to mention the whole Myrelle incident.Would she give up her power if it was required ? Yes, but that doesn't mean she doesn't have a taste for it.

Edited by Zentari
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And another example, and that really pisses me off, is the secrecy of the BA.

The AS lied to everybody that there is no BA. Even after they had a list with BA members, they manage to let more that 150 escape.

Now, if only one of the Forsaken or the DO himself have one single second of clear thought and stop being brain dead long enough to use the BA to 'visit' every leader of every country in the Randland, and even general as well. Since they don't know there are 150+ members of the WT that are serving the DO, they will be forced by the rules of conduct toward the AS to received them in private if they require it. So they could decapitate the entire leadership of the armies of the light, kings, lords and generals alike, only because the AS are to proud to say to everybody else that they were breached by the darkfriends.

First of all, the BA who escaped, were a bit over 60 in number, not 150.

 

More importantly - why the hell would the Forsaken need BA for that? With Travelling and Compulsion available, killing the non-channelling non-taveren world leaders would be laughably easy for them if they wanted it. Even the Seanchan Empress, with all the damane she had, didn't stand a chance against Semirhage.

Edited by David Selig
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Gee with friends like Egwene who needs enemies?

 

True, but Nynaeve would get friends killed just as quickly if she doesn't ease up on her stubborn foolishness a bit. Not that I see any reason that Egwene has any right to teach Nynaeve anything, they could both do with a visit to that toothless wilder that Cadsuane eventually appreciated or perhaps a few years with the Wise Ones as apprentices rather than just a short time. :smile:

True but then again that can be applied to ALL Aes Sedai in my opinion.

Also, you must remember that the whole ter'angreal experience was closer to a nightmare than a regular dream which could explain why it was so hard to disbelieve and traumatizing.

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And another example, and that really pisses me off, is the secrecy of the BA.

The AS lied to everybody that there is no BA. Even after they had a list with BA members, they manage to let more that 150 escape.

Now, if only one of the Forsaken or the DO himself have one single second of clear thought and stop being brain dead long enough to use the BA to 'visit' every leader of every country in the Randland, and even general as well.

First of all, the BA who escaped, were a bit over 60 in number, not 150.

 

More importantly - why the hell would the Forsaken need BA for that? With Travelling and Compulsion available, killing the non-channelling non-taveren world leaders would be laughably easy for them if they wanted it. Even the Seanchan Empress, with all the damane she had, didn't stand a chance against Semirhage.

 

Regardless of whether the scenario proposed is likely, or possible, or even whether, as David Selig said, the BA are needed for the shadow to pull it off, I personally feel that the leaders of the world have a right to know that there are a lot (I don't know the exact number) of aes sedai out there who are actually darkfriends. I understand that the aes sedai would not want to admit to having such a huge amount of darkfriends in their midst, but the situation is critical. With the Last Battle happening now, they can't afford to leave the world unaware of this huge danger. It would be like not disclosing the identity of higly dangerous criminals. Now Egwene is hardly responsible for the fact that the existance of the BA has been denied for thousands of years, but she's in charge now and it IS her responsibility to reveal this information now.

Edited by Master Ablar
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And another example, and that really pisses me off, is the secrecy of the BA.

The AS lied to everybody that there is no BA. Even after they had a list with BA members, they manage to let more that 150 escape.

Now, if only one of the Forsaken or the DO himself have one single second of clear thought and stop being brain dead long enough to use the BA to 'visit' every leader of every country in the Randland, and even general as well.

First of all, the BA who escaped, were a bit over 60 in number, not 150.

 

More importantly - why the hell would the Forsaken need BA for that? With Travelling and Compulsion available, killing the non-channelling non-taveren world leaders would be laughably easy for them if they wanted it. Even the Seanchan Empress, with all the damane she had, didn't stand a chance against Semirhage.

 

Regardless of whether the scenario proposed is likely, or possible, or even whether, as David Selig said, the BA are needed for the shadow to pull it off, I personally feel that the leader of the world have a right to know that there are a lot (I don't know the exact number) of aes sedai out there who are actually darkfriends. I understand that the aes sedai would not want to admit to having such a huge amount of darkfriends in their midst, but the situation is critical, with the Last Battle happening now, they can't afford to leave the world unaware of this huge danger. It would be like not disclosing the identity of higly dangerous criminals. Now Egwene is hardly responsible for the fact that the existance of the BA has been denied for thousands of years, but she's in charge now and it IS her responsibility to reveal this information now.

 

Ok let's be realistic about this. If this was going to be a big issue it would have happened long before Egwene came to power. As it is every major nation already has an AS advisor(or multiple ones) most certainly those sixty that escaped have had their identitites made known within the WT. One of them is not going to roll the dice on being found by showing up in some capital and attempting to take such a high profile position.

Edited by Suttree
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I mean Egwene has to be thinking at this point how dumb is Nynaeve really, she faced the test of leaving Lan and others close to her in the test for Accepted, she was more conscious of the fact that events inside the ter'angreal weren't real more than your average Aes Sedai. How many times does she have to be tested with the same problem before she easily overcomes it? I am being a little hard on Nynaeve but Egwene throwing that in should really have been a hurdle much shorter than the others since she had already faced it before.

First of all, Egwene had no reason to believe Nynaeve would realize the events inside the ter'angreal weren't real; people normally don't. Secondly, I don't think Nynaeve will ever get to the point where she "easily" overcomes the "hurdle" of leaving loved ones behind to die, which seperates her from the more self-centered characters. Both she and Egwene were haunted by what happened in their Accepted tests; this time she decided she wasn't going to re-open those wounds by betraying what mattered to her the most. That's not being dumb; that's called having integrity.

 

Egwene on the other hand even included her own father in the Emond's Field scenario. Think about that for a moment. If Nynaeve hadn't broken the rules to save Bran and Perrin from Shadowspawn, Egwene would have had to watch him die. She would have known it wasn't truly Bran al'Vere, only an illusion, but still one that looked and sounded just like him. How many would be able to stomach seeing--let alone creating--even just a virtual reality simulation of their parents being murdered? I personally found that part far more disturbing than anything she did to Nynaeve.

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She didn't strongarmed them? Hmmm, maybe I read that part differently.

Firstly, she put everybody in danger, especially the AM that had no real strength in the dream world.

Secondly, she could force them see things her way there, especially with the weaker AM. She actually uses mind control in the dream world against an AM.

 

Shielyn settled back, scanning Egwene’s face. Egwene met the woman’s eyes and kept her expression

calm.See that I am resolute, she thought.See that I mean what I say. That is not flattery. I am Aes Sedai.

I speak the truth.

Later on, she does the same with a BA. She thinks that she is an idiot and it happens, because Egwene is much more powerful in the Dream World.

It was a douche move to use it on a future ally in what supposed to be a fair bargain, but she's an AS, so there is an unspoken law that they have to gain power for the WT by any means necessary, even if it means walk over some rules of conduct or use dream word compulsion to have your way.

 

You're serious? I'll even let you continue to think that this is mind control. Unfortunately, her words there still don't tell the AM to obey. They would just make them see her as Aes Sedai, resolute, and tells the truth... all things AM would likely see from an Aes Sedai anyway... how would this FORCE them to agree?

 

If it is mind control (which I'm not convinced that it is) all she's doing is forcing her to understand that she is being completely honest, which, while it may not be very legal or good from a moral viewpoint, is done for what I consider to be a good cause, so I can live with it.

 

And not to mention the Wo and her 'chains of lace'. Of course I will not lie you openly, I will do it covertly. So much for respect for the WO. The thing that really gets me is that she really believes she's not doing anything wrong.

 

I love when people get the words wrong and blatantly show their biases. It's, "I will not tie you in bands of steel. I'll use lace instead" not "chains of lace". As I have already said, to tie together with lace is a good thing for the target person. It means you offer things they want and they stick around. They can always refuse them and leave if they want. There is nothing nefarious or manipulative about it. How do we know that? Because lace doesn't actually hold anyone, it's frilly and delicate but makes a good gift. It's called an analogy.

 

I think Egwene's meaning when she says she will use lace can be rather ambiguous. Personally I think that she's saying that, while she won't try and be tyrannical with the wise ones and try to gain absolute power over them, she will try to gain influence over them and get "her" group, the aes sedai, on top. She has always wanted to tie all women channelers to the WT in some manner or another. I believe shortly afterwards she's speaking with one of the other aes sedai who is worried that the wise ones and windfinders will try and do the exact same as them and try to become the dominant group. Egwene's response is that they will have to be better/smarter. I think the reasons people could react negatively towards Egwene in particular for this are:

 

1) We are in her head and hear her thoughts. Not so with the windfinders or Wise Ones.

 

2)The aes sedai have historically tried to reinforce their power and influence by pretending that they have the monopolly on the one power, and Egwene's attempt to go in a similar direction would tend to be irritating because Egwene should be bringing positive changes to the Tower.

 

3)People like the aes sedai a lot less liked than the Wise Ones. No one cares for the Windfinders much either, but we have far fewer PoV from them and they are far less central to the story as the AS.

 

Overall I feel that it's just politics between three groups who are used to having their way.

 

And another example, and that really pisses me off, is the secrecy of the BA.

The AS lied to everybody that there is no BA. Even after they had a list with BA members, they manage to let more that 150 escape.

Now, if only one of the Forsaken or the DO himself have one single second of clear thought and stop being brain dead long enough to use the BA to 'visit' every leader of every country in the Randland, and even general as well.

Since they don't know there are 150+ members of the WT that are serving the DO, they will be forced by the rules of conduct toward the AS to received them in private if they require it. So they could decapitate the entire leadership of the armies of the light, kings, lords and generals alike, only because the AS are to proud to say to everybody else that they were breached by the darkfriends.

 

So their pride can plunge every single country in total anarchy/chaos, days before the Final Battle, only because admitting the existence of the BA will weaken their status as leaders of the world. The leaders will begin to question their allegiance, and they will require that the AS submit to their decisions rather the other way around. Which is not such a bad thing, since the AS are supposed to be the servants of all.

Yeah I hate Rand too... oh wait we weren't talking about Rand? Sure sounded like it, I mean he's not exactly broadcasting his problems to the world.

 

But I guess you're mad at what the BA COULD do, but have not. Maybe the Tower has Eyes and Ears in all the still-functioning courts ready to report if any new Aes Sedai show up. Thus eliminating your issue. You're hating someone for something that hasn't happened...

 

I thing he hates them because there is a possibility that real bad stuff could happen, and they have not told people about it because either they have not considered it, or are too proud to admit it.

 

As for Rand, I don't see what you're getting at. What huge problem does he have? The only one I can think of is the the issue at the BT, and he's not aware of the magnitude of it yet.

 

And the Watcher of the Seals part from the Amyrlin's title gets me every single time. I just can't stop laughing. They had to wait 3000 years for Rand&co to show them how a seal should look like :)

 

This is about as minor as minor issues get. However, technically those are only the focal points, the seals are rather abstract. So watching to make sure the Dark One remains imprisoned. It's possible the meaning got a bit twisted since the breaking. Also, Moiraine (an Aes Sedai) not only lead Rand&co to the Eye of the World where that first one they got was, but she told them what it was. Unless you consider Moiraine part of the Co. But then maybe the WT does deserve such a title more than anyone else at least.

 

The Watcher of the Seals title may no longer really be suitable since no one knows where they are (the focus point, which what they are), but have been at one point. Keeping it may be a litte arrogant, but may also stop a mass panic that could happen if the world was made aware of the fact that the aes sedai actually have no idea where the seals are. So that lie could be said to be serving a greater good.

 

Ohhh, and their view on the Ashaman problem after the taint has been cleansed is also funny as well.

AS: Mother, the taint has been cleansed. Also, the 50 AS sent to kill the Asha'Man were captured. Since Rand is such a good guy, he forbid Taim&co to kill or still them, so some Asha'Man bonded the sister to keep them from being stilled.

Egwene: What??? They are treated no better than a bunch of damane? They have no right to do so. It's completely inhumane.

AS: But what do intend to do with these Asha'Man, not that we can't kill them anymore?

Egwene: Why, bond them and treat them as damane, of course. What a silly question.

 

Yeah Egwene's treatment by the Seanchan and her fierce protectiveness over those she's been placed in charge of is hilarious. How dare she.

 

First of all, I don't think Egwene actually compared the situation of the bonded aes sedai to damane so, no offence, but the Seanchan reference is rather pointless. Secondly her being protective of her underlings is understandable and even laudable, however I think the issue is more that she is being both biased (the bonded aes sedai were sent to slaughter, not only the ashaman, but every MAN found at the BT, so exactly what were they supposed to do? Hopefully she wasn't aware of what the whole mission comprised of, but I'm pretty sure she was) and hypocritical (she's outraged at the thought of aes sedai being bonded by ashaman, but she has no problem with the opposite).

Edited by Master Ablar
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And another example, and that really pisses me off, is the secrecy of the BA.

The AS lied to everybody that there is no BA. Even after they had a list with BA members, they manage to let more that 150 escape.

Now, if only one of the Forsaken or the DO himself have one single second of clear thought and stop being brain dead long enough to use the BA to 'visit' every leader of every country in the Randland, and even general as well.

First of all, the BA who escaped, were a bit over 60 in number, not 150.

 

More importantly - why the hell would the Forsaken need BA for that? With Travelling and Compulsion available, killing the non-channelling non-taveren world leaders would be laughably easy for them if they wanted it. Even the Seanchan Empress, with all the damane she had, didn't stand a chance against Semirhage.

 

Regardless of whether the scenario proposed is likely, or possible, or even whether, as David Selig said, the BA are needed for the shadow to pull it off, I personally feel that the leader of the world have a right to know that there are a lot (I don't know the exact number) of aes sedai out there who are actually darkfriends. I understand that the aes sedai would not want to admit to having such a huge amount of darkfriends in their midst, but the situation is critical, with the Last Battle happening now, they can't afford to leave the world unaware of this huge danger. It would be like not disclosing the identity of higly dangerous criminals. Now Egwene is hardly responsible for the fact that the existance of the BA has been denied for thousands of years, but she's in charge now and it IS her responsibility to reveal this information now.

 

Ok let's be realistic about this. If this was going to be a big issue it would have happened long before Egwene came to power. As it is every major nation already has an AS advisor(or multiple ones) most certainly those sixty that escaped have had their identitites made known within the WT. One of them is not going to roll the dice on being found by showing up in some capital and attempting to take such a high profile position.

 

Well, like I said, while it's unlikely that the scenario you're talking about would happen, I think the various kings and queens would like to know what they're facing before they end up fighting a bunch of people they thought were on their side. It would be a bit of a nasty shock.

Edited by Master Ablar
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one thing that I hate about the AS is that they keep no records of who is going where. That has always bothered me, I hope that egwene will militarize the AS in respects to organization (so that they can keep tallies on AS/their whereabouts/what mission their on) in order to prevent corruption from spreading so deeply once again

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She doesn't doubt his ability to seal the bore or his knowlegde of how to do so,

 

What is this comment based on?

 

She tells Elayne that Rand can seal the Bore without having to break the seals during their meeting in tel'aran'rhiod.

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She doesn't doubt his ability to seal the bore or his knowlegde of how to do so,

 

What is this comment based on?

 

She tells Elayne that Rand can seal the Bore without having to break the seals during their meeting in tel'aran'rhiod.

 

And her comment is based upon what exactly...? Her Advanced Diploma of Bore Sealing?

 

IIRC - she only said that he can do it without breaking the seals - because she doesnt want him to break the seals............. not because she knows anything his ability to seal the bore, or his knowledge about how to, and not beause she knows anything herself about how it should or shouldnt be sealed.

 

Since when does she know anything about Rand's knowledge or ability? She didnt even talk to him for god knows how many books and only listens to/accepts what some others say about him

Edited by Dewairah
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She doesn't doubt his ability to seal the bore or his knowlegde of how to do so,

 

What is this comment based on?

 

She tells Elayne that Rand can seal the Bore without having to break the seals during their meeting in tel'aran'rhiod.

 

And her comment is based upon what exactly...? Her Advanced Diploma of Bore Sealing?

 

IIRC - she only said that he can do it without breaking the seals - because she doesnt want him to break the seals............. not because she knows anything his ability to seal the bore, or his knowledge about how to, and not beause she knows anything herself about how it should or shouldnt be sealed.

 

Who said she was right about him knowing how to do it? However she has never expressed any doubts about his ability or knowledge, and until she does I consider that she doesn't have any. Afterall, why would she have doubts?

 

Egwene isn't stupid, she knows what Rand's role is as the DR. She just assumes that he can do it. All she wants is for the seals to not be broken.

 

By the way, your first line is exactly what I thought when I read that passage for the first time.

 

You know I just realised that I'm defending and criticising Egwene at the same time, which is.....odd.

Edited by Master Ablar
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Since when does she know anything about Rand's knowledge or ability? She didnt even talk to him for god knows how many books and only listens to/accepts what some others say about him

 

To be fair what else does she have to go on? Rand waltzed into the WT, said he was going to break the seals. Eggy said we must talk about it and plan and he refuses and then leaves...it'll be interesting in aMoL to see what reasons he had for handling it that way.

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She doesn't doubt his ability to seal the bore or his knowlegde of how to do so,

 

What is this comment based on?

 

She tells Elayne that Rand can seal the Bore without having to break the seals during their meeting in tel'aran'rhiod.

 

And her comment is based upon what exactly...? Her Advanced Diploma of Bore Sealing?

 

IIRC - she only said that he can do it without breaking the seals - because she doesnt want him to break the seals............. not because she knows anything his ability to seal the bore, or his knowledge about how to, and not beause she knows anything herself about how it should or shouldnt be sealed.

 

Who said she was right about him knowing how to do it? However she has never expressed any doubts about his ability or knowledge, and until she does I consider that she doesn't any. Afterall, why would she have doubts?

 

Egwene isn't stupid, she knows what Rand's role is as the DR. She just assumes that he can do it.

 

By the way, your first line is exactly what I thought when I read that passage for the first time.

 

Conversely you could argue that Egwene doesnt have a track record (infact she has the opposite) of thinking good of rand and thinking rand capable of much of anything. She, along with Elayne, actually think Rand screws up as often as not.

 

Why would she think she could trust him now shen she's made so many disparaging comments about his general capability in the past?

 

He was the dragon reborn then (inrespect to his past exploits), he's the dragon reborn now (in respect to sealing the bore)

Edited by Dewairah
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Since when does she know anything about Rand's knowledge or ability? She didnt even talk to him for god knows how many books and only listens to/accepts what some others say about him

 

To be fair what else does she have to go on? Rand waltzed into the WT, said he was going to break the seals. Eggy said we must talk about it and plan and he refuses and then leaves...it'll be interesting in aMoL to see what reasons he had for handling it that way.

 

Ok so we agree she knows nothing of his knowledge or ability and she has no advanced diploma of bore sealing and we readers have no knowledge that she has found a way to seal the bore that rand doesnt know about etc ---- ..... yet she's saying in the meeting in telaranrhiod: "he can seal the bore without breaking the seals" ....

 

I'm no saying she shouldnt be freaking out about rand breaking the seals... but she made a definitive statement (see above) for which we pretty much know she can have no sound basis to make.

 

Ergo - I declare shenanigans!! :biggrin:

 

She's either simply freaking out about the seals (which is fine) or she's peddling [what is quite probably] utter codsh!t as fact (i.e that rand can seal bore without breaking the seals).

 

I dont believe, with any great consistancy to the story so far or to her character, BS could be writing her as now having "faith in rand" or as having any knowledge about sealing the bore.

 

As such, I posit that she's simply scared and talking sh!t.

Edited by Dewairah
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Since when does she know anything about Rand's knowledge or ability? She didnt even talk to him for god knows how many books and only listens to/accepts what some others say about him

 

To be fair what else does she have to go on? Rand waltzed into the WT, said he was going to break the seals. Eggy said we must talk about it and plan and he refuses and then leaves...it'll be interesting in aMoL to see what reasons he had for handling it that way.

 

Yeah I would like to know what his reason for provoking them was. I mean don't get me wrong, as the aes sedai aren't exactly my favorite people I thought it was rather hilarious to see them react exactly as he expected them to. But, nonetheless, I hope he had a good reason for doing so.

 

She doesn't doubt his ability to seal the bore or his knowlegde of how to do so,

 

What is this comment based on?

 

She tells Elayne that Rand can seal the Bore without having to break the seals during their meeting in tel'aran'rhiod.

 

And her comment is based upon what exactly...? Her Advanced Diploma of Bore Sealing?

 

IIRC - she only said that he can do it without breaking the seals - because she doesnt want him to break the seals............. not because she knows anything his ability to seal the bore, or his knowledge about how to, and not beause she knows anything herself about how it should or shouldnt be sealed.

 

Who said she was right about him knowing how to do it? However she has never expressed any doubts about his ability or knowledge, and until she does I consider that she doesn't any. Afterall, why would she have doubts?

 

Egwene isn't stupid, she knows what Rand's role is as the DR. She just assumes that he can do it.

 

By the way, your first line is exactly what I thought when I read that passage for the first time.

 

Conversely you could argue that Egwene doesnt have a track record (infact she has the opposite) of thinking good of rand and thinking rand capable of much of anything. She, along with Elayne, actually think Rand screws up as often as not.

 

Why would she think she could trust him now shen she's made so many disparaging comments about his general capability in the past?

 

He was the dragon reborn then (inrespect to his past exploits), he's the dragon reborn now (in respect to sealing the bore)

 

I'd don't think it's so much about Rand as it is about the DR. She assumes that the DR is capable of dealing with the DO because that's his job. A lot of people have taken for granted that the DR is able to do what he needs to do. And I don't think it's entered her thoughts that Rand might actually break the seals without actually knowing what to do afterwards. Even though she doesn't have a very good opinion of Rand, I don't believe she would think that he would be stupid/crazy enough to do that. That's why she doesn't have any doubts. Because breaking the seals without knowing what to do afterward would be insane, and therefore Rand must know what to do since he wants to break the seals.

Edited by Master Ablar
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I'd don't it's so much about Rand as it is about the DR. She assumes that the DR is capable of dealing with the DO because that's his job. And I don't it's entered her thoughts that Rand might actually break the seals without actually knowing what to do. Even though she doesn't have a very good opinion of Rand, I don't believe she would think that he would be stupid/crazy enough to do that. That's why she doesn't have any doubts. Because breaking the seals without knowing what to do afterward would be insane, and therefore Rand must know what to do since he wants to break the seals.

 

You make a good arguement, - but i'm not sure I believe it.

 

Well played, Sir. :wink:

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Since when does she know anything about Rand's knowledge or ability? She didnt even talk to him for god knows how many books and only listens to/accepts what some others say about him

 

To be fair what else does she have to go on? Rand waltzed into the WT, said he was going to break the seals. Eggy said we must talk about it and plan and he refuses and then leaves...it'll be interesting in aMoL to see what reasons he had for handling it that way.

 

Ok so we agree she knows nothing of his knowledge or ability and she has no advanced diploma of bore sealing and we readers have no knowledge that she has found a way to seal the bore that rand doesnt know about etc ---- ..... yet she's saying in the meeting in telaranrhiod: "he can seal the bore without breaking the seals" ....

 

I'm no saying she shouldnt be freaking out about rand breaking the seals... but she made a definitive statement (see above) for which we pretty much know she can have no sound basis to make.

 

Ergo - I declare shenanigans!! :biggrin:

 

She's either simply freaking out about the seals (which is fine) or she's peddling [what is quite probably] utter codsh!t as fact (i.e that rand can seal bore without breaking the seals).

 

I dont believe, with any great consistancy to the story so far or to her character, BS could be writing her as now having "faith in rand" or as having any knowledge about sealing the bore.

 

As such, I posit that she's simply scared and talking sh!t.

 

I think you're expecting too much from her with what she should expect from Rand, especially given that everything she thought about Rand's character was true up until just a few days before he meets her. Then he walks in and makes an insane announcement with no rationalization and leaves. Eggy might be fooling herself a little, but really, Rand's made no counter argument, and the last time Rand made a world-changing decision and pursued it on his own it resulted with a broken world, millions dead, and the source half-tainted. That's a pretty high cost.

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On a different note... i have a question because my books are in storage while my house is being built..

 

 

Has Rand officially stated to egwene or others that he intends to actually seal the bore after he breaks the seals?

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Since when does she know anything about Rand's knowledge or ability? She didnt even talk to him for god knows how many books and only listens to/accepts what some others say about him

 

To be fair what else does she have to go on? Rand waltzed into the WT, said he was going to break the seals. Eggy said we must talk about it and plan and he refuses and then leaves...it'll be interesting in aMoL to see what reasons he had for handling it that way.

 

Yeah I would like to know what his reason for provoking them was. I mean don't get me wrong, as the aes sedai aren't exactly my favorite people I thought it was rather hilarious to see them react exactly as he expected them to. But, nonetheless, I hope he had a good reason for doing so.

 

She doesn't doubt his ability to seal the bore or his knowlegde of how to do so,

 

What is this comment based on?

 

She tells Elayne that Rand can seal the Bore without having to break the seals during their meeting in tel'aran'rhiod.

 

And her comment is based upon what exactly...? Her Advanced Diploma of Bore Sealing?

 

IIRC - she only said that he can do it without breaking the seals - because she doesnt want him to break the seals............. not because she knows anything his ability to seal the bore, or his knowledge about how to, and not beause she knows anything herself about how it should or shouldnt be sealed.

 

Who said she was right about him knowing how to do it? However she has never expressed any doubts about his ability or knowledge, and until she does I consider that she doesn't any. Afterall, why would she have doubts?

 

Egwene isn't stupid, she knows what Rand's role is as the DR. She just assumes that he can do it.

 

By the way, your first line is exactly what I thought when I read that passage for the first time.

 

Conversely you could argue that Egwene doesnt have a track record (infact she has the opposite) of thinking good of rand and thinking rand capable of much of anything. She, along with Elayne, actually think Rand screws up as often as not.

 

Why would she think she could trust him now shen she's made so many disparaging comments about his general capability in the past?

 

He was the dragon reborn then (inrespect to his past exploits), he's the dragon reborn now (in respect to sealing the bore)

 

I'd don't it's so much about Rand as it is about the DR. She assumes that the DR is capable of dealing with the DO because that's his job. A lot of people have taken for granted that the DR is able to do what he needs to do. And I don't it's entered her thoughts that Rand might actually break the seals without actually knowing what to do afterwards. Even though she doesn't have a very good opinion of Rand, I don't believe she would think that he would be stupid/crazy enough to do that. That's why she doesn't have any doubts. Because breaking the seals without knowing what to do afterward would be insane, and therefore Rand must know what to do since he wants to break the seals.

 

I quite disagree. Oh, I don't know if she's sure, but given what tends to happen with male channelers, word of his exploits, and what she knows of him, it likely sounds from her POV that he may be completely off his rocker.

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Since when does she know anything about Rand's knowledge or ability? She didnt even talk to him for god knows how many books and only listens to/accepts what some others say about him

 

To be fair what else does she have to go on? Rand waltzed into the WT, said he was going to break the seals. Eggy said we must talk about it and plan and he refuses and then leaves...it'll be interesting in aMoL to see what reasons he had for handling it that way.

 

Yeah I would like to know what his reason for provoking them was. I mean don't get me wrong, as the aes sedai aren't exactly my favorite people I thought it was rather hilarious to see them react exactly as he expected them to. But, nonetheless, I hope he had a good reason for doing so.

 

She doesn't doubt his ability to seal the bore or his knowlegde of how to do so,

 

What is this comment based on?

 

She tells Elayne that Rand can seal the Bore without having to break the seals during their meeting in tel'aran'rhiod.

 

And her comment is based upon what exactly...? Her Advanced Diploma of Bore Sealing?

 

IIRC - she only said that he can do it without breaking the seals - because she doesnt want him to break the seals............. not because she knows anything his ability to seal the bore, or his knowledge about how to, and not beause she knows anything herself about how it should or shouldnt be sealed.

 

Who said she was right about him knowing how to do it? However she has never expressed any doubts about his ability or knowledge, and until she does I consider that she doesn't any. Afterall, why would she have doubts?

 

Egwene isn't stupid, she knows what Rand's role is as the DR. She just assumes that he can do it.

 

By the way, your first line is exactly what I thought when I read that passage for the first time.

 

Conversely you could argue that Egwene doesnt have a track record (infact she has the opposite) of thinking good of rand and thinking rand capable of much of anything. She, along with Elayne, actually think Rand screws up as often as not.

 

Why would she think she could trust him now shen she's made so many disparaging comments about his general capability in the past?

 

He was the dragon reborn then (inrespect to his past exploits), he's the dragon reborn now (in respect to sealing the bore)

 

I'd don't it's so much about Rand as it is about the DR. She assumes that the DR is capable of dealing with the DO because that's his job. A lot of people have taken for granted that the DR is able to do what he needs to do. And I don't it's entered her thoughts that Rand might actually break the seals without actually knowing what to do afterwards. Even though she doesn't have a very good opinion of Rand, I don't believe she would think that he would be stupid/crazy enough to do that. That's why she doesn't have any doubts. Because breaking the seals without knowing what to do afterward would be insane, and therefore Rand must know what to do since he wants to break the seals.

 

I quite disagree. Oh, I don't know if she's sure, but given what tends to happen with male channelers, word of his exploits, and what she knows of him, it likely sounds from her POV that he may be completely off his rocker.

 

True, the fact that Rand may be insane would to make crazy things very possible with him. However he's already planning on doing something quite crazy (from her point of view): breaking the seals. Breaking the seals without a plan is on a whole other level of crazy for her, one she may not have, and doesn't seem to have at any point in the book, considered. She's only ever spoken about how breaking the seals is crazy, nothing more. Which is understandable, afterall, breaking the seals is quite enough already.

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On a different note... i have a question because my books are in storage while my house is being built..

 

 

Has Rand officially stated to egwene or others that he intends to actually seal the bore after he breaks the seals?

 

Yeah, he has. He told Min he couldn't do it like last time. And I'm sure he told Egwene, though I can't remember exactly what he said. Something about needing both saidin and saidar.

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I've been trying to get caught up in this thread. I may have this wrong and if I do I apologize. It appears to me that Egwene has faith that Rand can seal the bore but does not have faith in his method. Does that seem odd?

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